Chum Kil question

[sticky fingers]

the 'arm break' part - c'mon , is that what it's really for? (I have my doubts)
or is there another application for that movement?

[Atleastimnotyou]

no it's not for breaking arms

[[Censored]]

Which part?

[Wilson]

Make it whatever you want to make it. Its just a movement. Sure, it can be used to break an arm......or hell, it could be asking someone to "give you five". Try not to label movements and attach absolutes or techniques to them. Lots going on in the Wing Chun forms.

[yuanfen]

Wing chun motions are not single techniques-they are for
the devlopment of good motions which can lead to techniques
when the occasion is there. That goes for jip sao as well- when done right.

[kungfu cowboy]

Well, it's not for nothing, is it?

[Patrick Gordon]

Jip Sau motion, like the rest of the motions in the form is for development. The motion has the two hands doing short movements in opposite directions. In application, this motion can be for catching, controlling, attacking and yes, arm breaking. Depends on how you apply it, and of caorse, your development and understanding of the motion.

Patrick Gordon.

[rubthebuddha]

arm breaking, yes.
elbow breaking, no.
shoulder breaking? yes.

[yuanfen]

rub the buddha sez:elbow breaking, no
------------------------------------------
Why not? In all occasions?

[yenhoi]

The original application I was shown for those motions was for takeing out elbows, and it does work if you choose to apply it in that manner.

[Martial Joe]

I know it has a good use of showing you how to use both arms simultaniously.

[kungfu cowboy]

Wouldn't it be a little difficult to break the arm anywhere else along it's length other than the elbow? As well as an inefficient application of force?

[sticky fingers]

I'm with kungfu cowboy. Arms are not that easy to break, or I am just lacking the short force needed to do it?
yes, I realise not to look at it as a single technique. I said 'arm breaking' for want of a better English term and it was the only application I was told.
Breaking the movement down, I can see the application of individual hands - tok sau and jut sau. But used together in that fashion???

[yenhoi]

Have you asked your teacher to show you?

I dont think the elbow "breaks", but it hurts alot and is probably useful if you get in a position to pull it off for some reason ( you never know - arms get tangled up all the time.)

[joy chaudhuri]

Elbows and knees dont break- but they can get very badly messed up- and real crippling injuries can result if the mechanisms of the joints are messed up.
jip sao properly done can create great damage to a variety of places.

[taltos]

joy chaudhuri wrote:

--Elbows and knees dont break- but they can get very badly
--messed up- and real crippling injuries can result if the
--mechanisms of the joints are messed up.

Amen to that! My brother injured his Anterior Cruxiate Ligament over two years ago, and he still has trouble with his knee every now and again. I was amazed at first at how such a small, weak threat of fiber could so totally destroy the mobility and stability of someone. IMHO, that's what the primary focus is in most of the WC "breaks." After all, what's more efficient: expending the necessary energy to snap a strong, calcified bone, or to damage a tiny, malleable muscle or joint (whose destruction would cripple just as quickly and effectively)? I'm not saying that this is a 100% rule, just that it would logically follow to cause maximum damage (pain, loss of root, what-have-you) with minimal exertion.

-Levi

[joy chaudhuri]

Good points Levi. Joint damage is no fun and wing chun can do
great damage to the other persons chosen joint.
But it does take development and training to do it well.

[TjD]

the motions do not have to be a break, they can also be split apart. the slap can be used in conjunction with a strike extremely well, the other motion can be used to uproot someone, or push an elbow up out of the way. the motions themselves can be used in many ways - if you dont know how to use them, try and use the motions in chi sau. see where you could apply the energy. thats part of the reason chi sau is there - we can test what we know and see how it works

[yuanfen]

BTW in one of the Dragon movies- the one with Chuck Norris in it..atleast in acting Bruce Lee did a variation of jip sao in breaking a Norris arm joint and adversely affecting energy to the fingers- in the Coloseum fight scene.

[YungChun]

WC is a concept based art and so I beleive that movement (which is repeated) denotes the 'concept' of 'hand replacement' but I'll bet there are other interesting things that it suggests as well.