Hung gar and wing chun

[Dark_Samurai]

Is there a relation between HUNG GAR and WING CHUN?

:cool:

[Blackspear]

I doubt there is except for the fact that they both are kung fu styles. And of course some stances or what not

[tparkerkfo]

There is some that think so, others that don't. According to legends, there is a connection. Wing Chun was created by Ng Mui when she taught Yimm Wing Chun. Hung Gar was created By Jee Shim when he taight Hung Hei Goon. Gee Shim is also credited with introducing the Long Pole in Wing Chun. Both Ng Mui and jee Shim are said to be surving members of the shaolin temple.

These are legends and are not proven. Many people do beleive them and there is no reason not to. But we should be careful about saying they are true. There also may be some relation with the triads, but there is not much public info on this.

As far as the style goes, there is little that is similar. There are some similarites but I think these are not enough. The structure and power is very different. Each art relies on very different principles. Wing Chun seems closer to arts like Dragon, bak mei, southern mantis, and white crane than hung gar. All most all shaolin arts are very similar to each other. Choy Li Fut has similar characteristics to hung gar. Same with Northern Shaolin. It is easy to see the connections in the stances, techniques, and power. But wing chun does not fit the mold as nicely.

To sum up... we don't really know. It depends on your view point. I personally think the connection is very small if any
Tom
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[Geezer]

Tom wrote>

There is some that think so, others that don't. According to legends, there is a connection. Wing Chun was created by Ng Mui when she taught Yimm Wing Chun. Hung Gar was created By Jee Shim when he taight Hung Hei Goon. Gee Shim is also credited with introducing the Long Pole in Wing Chun. Both Ng Mui and jee Shim are said to be surving members of the shaolin temple.

You must not forget that Chi Sim/Gee Shim/Jee Sim is aslo credited with being the founder of "Chi Sim Weng Chun" and I think, don't quote me on this(yeah right) the Hung Ga Dragon Pole is very similiar to Chi Sims pole.;)

I'm one of those few that think there is a relationship between HG and WCK.:D

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Sheldon,

Thanks for adding. The elders are related to many arts. Many more than they could physically create. Ng Mui is created with many arts to include Dragon style, Plum Blossum, wing chun, and a couple others. Gee Shim is credited with a few as well, but I am not to familair with those. Perhaps Gee Shim has a direct conection with Gee Shim wing chun as the legend states. but I myself, am not convinced that Gee Shim wing chun is really wing chun related. But that is me.

The long pole forms all have similar points. The Wing Chun and the Hung Gar pole forms are similar and use similar methods. The pole form in Hung Gar is said to be developed from a famous fighter who converted the techniques from spear forms. The same techniques can be found in other styles as well. I don't know any thing about Gee Shim weapons, and little about the other stuff so I can not comment.

For those that do think there is a relation, I would love to hear what, other than legend, they feel links the two arts?

Tom
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[TenTigers]

There is definately a relation. Look at the opening to Fu Hok Seurng Ying Kuen (Tiger?Crane set) it completely maps out all the major hand techniques seen in wing chun. The snake and crane techniques as well. Tan, Gong, Fook, Bong,Kwun, all appear in these sets. As does the yee ji kim yeung ma-at least in Tang Fung branch. Lop-sao,phon-sao,jow-sao, all mainstays of both arts. Hak-Fu Jow is seen throughout both arts and is broken down into jams, kwun-sao, gong-sao, etc.depending on angle and usage. I study both arts, and many of my teachers also have. Alan Lee, whom I have studied wing chun from, and will continue with, has always shown me corralations between these arts. He has also studied Hung-Ga as well. People who don't see the similarities between these arts need to look deeper into their systems. Outward appearance to beginners are completely different once you really get into the meat of the systems.

[Blackspear]

Ten Tigers ,

I understand your point but please note that we are all human beings and are limited to our body movements so. dont get caught up in names and moves no matter what it is there is always similarities even hung gar and Goju Ryu Karate have similarities.

So the reason I say they are not related is because of fighting theory , philosophy and other notes because of course body movement will be similar no matter what style so please dont be so harsh to say that if someone does not agree means they are beginners for everyone in their own way is a beginner.

[tparkerkfo]

Hello TenTigers,

Your correct in that there appears to be some similarities between wing chun and hung gar. Tiger and crane seem to show many techniques. However, I would ask you about the applications. is beauty looking inthe mirror really Tan Sau. Apply both and see. The cross wind sways the willow is not in wing chun. Wing Chun does not arc as in the begining sections of Fu Hok.

Lets look at the stances. Wing Chun does not have any of the many stances found in hung gar except maybe the YJKYM. Every Shaolin art has the horse, bow and arrow, cat, twisted, etc stances. Not wing chun. Yes there is YJKYM. But are they the same? The iron wire form was added later to hung gar and that seems to be the basis of that stance.

A dolphin and a shark have many things in common, yet they are very distinct. I beleive both art drew from similar sources indirectly. I also think they independantly arrived at the same conclusions. I see many similarties in boxing and fencing, but does that mean they too are related?

What about the source of power and the fahts used? Very different. Wing chun derives its power from the knees and elbows. Hung Gar uses stance and the waist. Ging is very differnt. If they were related, there would be much more incommon with them. However, we do see much greater similarities to the hakka arts like southern mantis, bak mei, leung Ying, etc. Are to beleive all these arts also are related to hung gar?

I do believe you can see similarities, but I don't think that means they ARE connected. But... maybe they are.

Tom
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[TenTigers]

hmmm, as far as usage is, there are more than one application to a movement and many interpetations. Hung-Ga and Wing Chun are not technique oriented, but concept oriented. The techniques are extracted, expanded upon, and extrapolated to form deeper and deeper technique. Wing Chun power derived from the elbows and knees? Hmmm, not the Wing Chun I learned. We use whole body integration power, waist and stance pretty much the same way you use body integration in Moi Fa Kuen in Hung-Ga. Don't you utilize the shift and the rat-step? Tan-dar can be pretty much the same as 'pook jong catching tiger'shift into the tan-POW! And the Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma is in ALL the Tang-Fung forms, not just the wire. The horse and cat are seen in the Wing Chun pole set as well.

[Golden Arms]

From what I understand, at some point in the distant past, the Hung lineage taught the Wing Chun Lineage the Pole, and in exchange the Hung Lineage learned the Butterfly Knives (Cant recall 100% though) and the wing chun system was integrated into the hung system for the most part. They both use many common moves just slightly differently, but in the end its all open to your personal interpretation of the movements anyway right? Ie: bong sau, pak sau, biu sau, etc. Just my $.02, you dont have to take my word for it.

[desertwingchun2]

Ten Tigers - You are right on the money my friend. Please e-mail me so we can share some kung fu
-David

[churn-ging]

So ten tigers, would you say that wing chun and hung gar compliment each other?

I'm asking cause I always thought that hung gar used more tension in their techniques were as wing chun used more of a relaxed force in theirs. Keep in mind though, I don't know anything about hung gar.

[once ronin]

its takes a person who understands both hung gar and wing chun to answer this.

but id you look at a photo of one who bong sao in wing chun and one who bong sao in hung gar. you would say the hands are the sames. but the powers of use is different can be explained by people who have practiced and understand both arts.

both have the same roots but have branched out to what you see today.

[illusionfist]

An issue in this is kim yeung ma, and i'm not seeing how this works because the kim yeung ma in Wing Chun is not like Hung Gar's kim yeung ma. Depending on the lineage of Wing Chun, the back leans back a little bit, which is different from how Hung Gar's structure is. Also depending on the lineage, the feet are straighter, more like baht fun ma than Hung Gar's kim yeung ma.

In Hung Gar, kim yeung ma is used more for internal cultivation while Wing Chun's retains a fighting focus. Both of these perspectives present structural differences that set them apart in usage.

Blackspear brings up a good point about the amount of movements we have. Although we could do the same moves on a shape level, the specific focus of each art is gonna change how that move feels upon issuance. The total difference between the two is the training of the kiu sau, usage of ma, and ging.

No doubt whole body integration plays a key role in both arts, but i would like to see how somebody can compare the paan ging from hung gar and wing chun and say they feel the same. There is just no way. Wing Chun's structure and frame doesn't allow for that same kind of paan ging that is indicative of Hung Gar.

I've never understood this comparison and it comes up quite a bit. Shapes can sometimes overlap into different arts, but its the arts take on power and its issuance that sets them apart from the rest. Even conceptual and theoretical stuff can overlap, but once again the ging is the defining factor. The common thing that i see when this argument comes up is shape, and thats just not the way to compare things. All the examples that were presented were based on shape and not the specific power that is indicative of each art. The only exception is kim yeung ma because the shape can drastically change its usage and internal capability.

So with that being said, if somebody can actually compare power based stuff, internals, etc, i would be more inclined to agree with this comparison. To date i have not felt, seen, or heard anything that would make me think otherwise.

Peace :D

[Geezer]

Tom Wrote>

What about the source of power and the fahts used? Very different. Wing chun derives its power from the knees and elbows. Hung Gar uses stance and the waist. Ging is very differnt. If they were related, there would be much more incommon with them.

From what I understand in WCK you start learning about structure as soon as you start playing SLT. It comes from the the whole body not just your knees and elbows, what happened to your hips.??

Tentigers Wrote>

The techniques are extracted, expanded upon, and extrapolated to form deeper and deeper technique. Wing Chun power derived from the elbows and knees? Hmmm, not the Wing Chun I learned. We use whole body integration power, waist and stance pretty much the same way you use body integration in Moi Fa Kuen in Hung-Ga.

Tom Wrote>


A dolphin and a shark have many things in common, yet they are very distinct.

I think there's only one thing they have in common, a Shark is a Fish and the Dolphin is a Mammal.;)

[Dark_Samurai]

Thank you very much for all your answers

:cool:

[TenTigers]

chuern ging-yes, the Hung-Ga forms exhibit tension, BUT that does not mean the striking is with tension. People misjudge Hung-Ga as well as Wing Chun. There are many people who say Hung-Ga lacks mobility, and is slow. Why? Because they look at forms done slowly and low stances, and small movements and make a snap judgement based on outward appearances. I guess that would mean Tai Chi is fought in slow motion? Wing Chun must fight like Siu Nim Tao?They have no power-the punches are only snapping of the elbows. As far as comparing Bong-Sao? Is it different? Are you looking at bong-sao as a block, or a strike? Which way are you moving? Into the strike, away from the strike,angling off the strike? All of the above? Is it a lock? Is it a destruction? Is it a deflection? Is it low? High? Middle? Is the power squeezing, or is it released in a blast? or is it inch power? How do I answer this? My answer is 'yes, they are' your answer might be something else entirely. Who's right? Who's wrong? My Gung-Fu is MY Gung-Fu. It might not be your Gung-Fu. I draw from the many different teachers I have studied under and continue to study under. To many, Hung-Ga is just Karate with cool claws.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Sheldon and Ten Tigers,

Please don't get upset about this post. Just discussing. Sheldon and I have been through MANY of these conversations.

Sheldon, A shark and a dolphin are very different, indeed. There is no connection, unless you go back millions of years. One is a mammal, the other is not. Yet both have adapted to the same enviornment and look fairly similar. Both have fins and tails, which happen to be located in very similar locations. Both use a torpedo shape body and utilize very similar swimming mechanics. Both have teeth to hunt with. Both are very agile and quick. The killer whale may even have more in common. The point to this is that similarity doesn't mean a direct connection.

Ten Tigers,
I agree that neither art is Technique orientated. However, both arts have techniques or hands that are used a certain way. A tan sau's strength in wing chun is from a forward motion. It is used to apply pressure in a forward, not sideways application. The "tan" sau in the opening in Fu Hok is not a tan sau. It does not get applied the same way, so it can not be a tan sau. It is more of a cutting type block that clears an area.

I don't know what kind of wing chun you guys practice, but the knees and elbows should be the source of power. Of course it is not the only source, Most of the body helps to transmit the force. Power is not generated the same way in wing chun as hung gar. Many things I will give on, but this is not one. I am sure hung gar does have elements similar to wing chun and it can generate similar power, but overall, it is very different.

Hung Gar and wing chun do use the entire body. But Hung Gar also uses torque. Moving from Sae Ping Man into the bow stance is a great example. The hip is twisted to help drive that power. The rear leg helps to explode and drive that power. This is a basic hung gar technique. Not found at all in wing chun. The hip is used to transmit power, but I have not seen it used to generate power. The hip is indeed important in both systems, but it is used a little bit differently.

My question,

If the arts were the same, when and how did they seperate? Why does most all wing chun look like most all wing chun, except for those that acknowledge and outside or different source? Why does all hung gar look like hung gar, though the details are different? We don't see wing chun evolving into hung gar and we don't see hung gar evolving in to wing chun. Wing Chun is similar to the hakka arts and hung gar is similar to the shaolin arts. I can see the connection between Choy Li Fut and Hung Gar quite clearly. I can see similarities in white crane, Dragon, and wing chun. I see some, but a lot less between Wing Chun and Hung Gar.

Dolphin and Killer Whale are similar and some what related.
A Shark and Baracudda are similar and are somewhat related.
A dolphin and a shark are similar but unrelated.

Those that understand both arts, can you pick examples of how the arts are the same? Show me where the tan, bong, and fook exists in hung gar with application and not static poses that look similar? Were is the tiger in wing chun? The crane was said to be imported into hung gar AFTER Gee Shim.

I myself see many similarities. I see an importance on the structure. I see importance on the elbow in hung gar. I see the center line approach as well. These are the things that make me contemplate the connection. Not the legends nor the opening of Fu Hok. I think you guys can draw better examples. I do not pretend to know if there is a connection, but my current thought is there is not a direct connection, ie Ng Mui and Gee Shim both learned shaolin and passed on there art, which was "modified". However there may be indirect influence. Wing Chun could have a source that has shaolin connections. Hung Gar could have this same connection. IE, Fuiken white crane might be a linking factor between both arts. Just a suggestion, not saying it is true.

By the way, some hung gar people do seem to say there is a connection, Chiu Chi Ling for example. But few wing chun people seem to beleive the two arts are related other than the legend.

Just my thoughts
Tom
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[TenTigers]

Illusion fist, yes, I have seen some Wing Chun schools lean back in yee ji kim yeung ma. But I have also seen Wing Chun schools play it exactly as in Tang-Fung Hung-Ga. Oh and btw, My Tang-Fung lineage is decended from Yee Chi-Wai, I know there are other lineages within Tang-Fung branch which are different. I have seen Ho Lap Tien,Chan Tai-Hing, Shakespear Chan Hung-Ga and we are all different. Even among people in the same lineage, same school depending when and for how long they've studied with said teachers, and individual interpetation. all different. I had one person tell me I practice a version he hadn't seen his hing-dai do in over twenty years. Probably because I learned it twenty years ago!

[TenTigers]

Desert WingChun-you can e-mail me at WongFeHung@aol

[Geezer]

Tom Wrote>

Dolphin and Killer Whale are similar and some what related.
A Shark and Baracudda are similar and are somewhat related.
A dolphin and a shark are similar but unrelated.

So that means that I'm related to Spiders seeing as we both exist on land???

[tparkerkfo]

Sheldon,

The comparison is as good as you make it out to. I did NOT suggest what you wrote. My point was two different things can reach the same conclusions without being decendant from each other. A whale and a dolphin are both related in being mammals and developed in a similar fashion. This can be said the same about Choy Li Fut and Hung Gar. Very similar though they are not really related. They share the same lineage. A dolphin and a shark are unrelated yet they evolved to the point they have similar traits. This suggests that it is possible that wing chun and hung gar could have arrived at the same conclusions, but of course it is not proof at all. Weather your decendant from a spider is not for me to call, but I don't see how you deduced that from what I wrote.

Heres a novel idea, instead of criticizing what I write on every forum and telling me how I am wrong, why don't you show me how I am wrong? Tell me how wing chun and hung gar are the same. I don't need links, I have seen most. I also don't need what some one else says, unless it suports your view directly. I am well aware of Gee Shim and HFY wing chun, so don't bother posting a link. What do YOU feel is the link between the two styles?

Unless you offer substance, this conversation is over between us. I am haapy to continue if your willing to discuss it.

Tom
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[Geezer]

Tom Wrote>

Heres a novel idea, instead of criticizing what I write on every forum and telling me how I am wrong, why don't you show me how I am wrong? Tell me how wing chun and hung gar are the same. I don't need links, I have seen most. I also don't need what some one else says, unless it suports your view directly.

Tom, I hope you don't think I 've got some sort of hate campaign against you because I haven't, I feel somewhat closer to you because of our past(WCML, Southern Fist Online and now KF Online).
We have gone round and round but we never seem to hit the same nail.
You think that the whole body is not incorparated into your WCK Power/Energy coming from the Knees and Elbows.



Tom Wote>

I don't know what kind of wing chun you guys practice, but the knees and elbows should be the source of power. Of course it is not the only source, Most of the body helps to transmit the force. Power is not generated the same way in wing chun as hung gar.

What about the 1st section of Chum Kiu(turning energy)fair enough, it is not entireley the same as say, turning to cross stance createing that winding sensation but at the heart of it I would say the energy is similiar.

Tom Wrote>

The hip is twisted to help drive that power. The rear leg helps to explode and drive that power. This is a basic hung gar technique. Not found at all in wing chun. The hip is used to transmit power, but I have not seen it used to generate power. The hip is indeed important in both systems, but it is used a little bit differently.

You're weight distribution is not even is it:confused:

Please explain how the hips are used differently, when you're in WCKs YJKYM are you're hips kicked forward or left hollow when you play HGKs YJKYM are you hips kicked forward or hollow:confused:

I realise we go round and round and we have very different ideas on what we want from the MA, but I hate to think that you think I'm "Stalking You";)

[Andrew]

Hmm, I have to agree with Ten Tigers that there is alot of correlation between Hung gar and WC. The WC and hakka art correlation is in my opinion very weak. I have studied a little Pak mei, and alot of SPM.

The Hakka systems, generate power from the shoulder, hence the swallow spit formula, the rounded shoulders and empty chest. This theory is central to SPM. But there is no correlation with Wing Chun. Its a central aspect and you start learning, well I did right from the start. This is the first crucial difference. The second crucial difference is that there is no YJYM stance. Both in SPM and Bak Mei, your stance can be discribed as 'natural' i.e you feet lie in a parrallel lines.

The next, point is the fists, BM and SPM make extensive use of the phoenix eys fist.
Whilist people use it in WC, its not seen in any of the forms. Another major difference is that SPM has no bong sau. Its avoided because its seen as structurally poor.

Okay, the link between WC and HG is stronger. There is in my opinion that there is strong proof of the two systems having a similar root. I suppose its wrong, but the way I view WC is that its what would happen if someone taught you only one aspect of HG. So you learn the snake and crane, the softer aspects. Away from your sifu. You are going to build upon the skills you learnt. Its like wallking down a path, the further you travel down it the further away from the root you are going too get. You are going to work on your strongest aspects. i.e Generating power from a short distance, so you are going to lose some of the waist techniques. Eventually it will have its own falvour. But the roots are the same. If you look at the base motions in HG and WC they are very similar, the opening of Fu Hok, the rolling backfist.
The fact that both have YJKM

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Sheldon

STOP STALKING ME. LOL. No I don't think you are. We just happen to be on similar lists. I would love to discuss things with you, but I find you take a few limited view points, which are not accepted by most people, and use that as the basis of your evidence. Anyways, that is old stuff since you have not done this on this post. ANy case, You asked some good quesitons.

Hung Gar and wing chun do use the hips very differently, in many aspects. Wing chun tries to link the upper and the lower body to create a strong structure. You mentioned that I don't beleive wing chun uses whole body unity or somehting like that. That is not true. Wing Chun does indeed do that. When you hit, you use the whole body. I like the hammer and nail analogy. The body is the hammer driving the nail, or fist, into the target.

The hip in hung gar is spun or turned. The upper body rotates and does not lock like hung gar. Tramendous power is generated when you transition from a horse into the front stance. This is a pretty basic building block that drives many techniques. Wing Chun NEVER does this. The rear leg drives the power. Not in wing chun.

I am not an expert in either style. But I can see the fundimental differences. I do see some similarities of course. But I am not convinced that it means both arts decended from each other.

You can not raise the hung gar stances and get wing chun. You can not add sae ping ma and the front bow stance to wing chun and get hung gar. Many principles are almost opposed to each other.

I have no direct experience with the Hung Gar YJKYM. From what I have heard from those that understand both, they are VERY different. This makes sense since they came from different back ground. YJKYM is not as rare as people think. It is a common stance used in Chi Gung. White Crane also uses it. Personaly, I think White Crane may be the link between Hung Gar and Wing Chun, though I don't quite now how it may relate to hung gar. The Iron Wire form, where YJKYM is found, is not native to hung gar. It was added around Wong Fei Hung's time. I am not sure of its background. But this makes sense that it would not follow wing chun's principles.
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[tparkerkfo]

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for your reply. This is the first time I have talked directly to a SPM practioner about any possible connection to wing chun.

You brought up a VERY valid point about the hollow chest and the Back, or Hung Mun as I beleive it is called. Wing Chun, as I have learned it, does NOT use this basic principle in many hakka arts. Also, we do not use the back like Bak Mei, or as you also mentioned, like SPM. I do not beleive that wing chun is directly related to SPM, Leung Ying, Bak MEi, etc. But I do beleive it is from a similar family stemming from a similar root. I would say there is a common ancessor to all these arts.

I beleive there are more correlation between the hakka arts than there is between Hung Gar. I personaly beleive our connection is through White Crane and perhaps another art. Our legends speak of a crane, I beleive this is a metaphor for the crane system. Many things are similar, but many things are very different. A lot of research needs to be done.

I do not beleive you can take a portion of hung gar and come up with wing chun. Wing Chun is not jsut the crane and/or snake of hung gar. According to legends in hung gar, the white crane was added to hung gar via Fong Wing Chun and does not suggest that this came from shaolin. Perhaps Fong Wing Chun introduced a similar art, white crane, into hung gar that was also introduced into wing chun. I dont' mean to say that there is not an indirect relation. My main point is I do NOT believe wing chun came from shaolin. This White Crane conenction, if it exist, may speak of the similarities between both arts. If wing chun is related to Hung Gar through Shaolin, then it would be related to Choy Li Fut and northern Siu Lam. And these arts are even further from wing chun that Hung Gar.

So, just to clarify, I don't beleive wing chun is from shaolin. IF wing chun and hung gar are related, I beleive it is from some unknown art like white crane that is the link. I beleive wing chun is from the same root as the hakka arts, though it may not be directly related to SPM, Bak Mei, Leung Ying, etc.

Tom
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[denali]

I think most are being too specific about the different energies between the styles. That doesn't really say too much about whether or not wing chun came from hung gar or not..

If wing chun came from the same shaolin as hung gar, it's obviously been many years since the branch right? Do you really expect the methods to stay constant over a long period of time? Things change..if they didn't, there wouldn't be so many different styles.

[HuangKaiVun]

Nowadays, a lot of guys (e.g. Tentigers and myself) study BOTH Hung Ga and Wing Chun.

Like it or not, there's going to be some serious crossover in techniques during combat. That's absolutely indisputable.

Who cares about whether or not there was mixing in the past? What about all the mixing NOW????

[Andrew]

Hi tparkerkfo, you already know me ;-) I am aamc on the other southern\Hung Gar board. As for Wing Chun coming from Bak Sil lum. Well my old Hung Gar school, which also included Bak Sil Lum had a Bak Sil lum Snake form which opened almost exactly the same a SLT, before moving into more expansive movements.

However I cannot tell you the history of the form. So wether it can be submitted as evidence is another matter ;-)

The SPM, Bak Mei may have some root in White Crane. This is one of those things, which is suppostion. I am sure martial historians have detailed similarities and differences. My evidence is the three step formula. The opening of White Cranes 'three wars'
is very similar to the opening of Chow Gar's 'Sam bo Gin'. Where as the swallow and spit of Bak Mei's first training form is similar to SPM. The correlations are very similar, again I dont see any correlations in WC. In fact if you look at alot of the martial arts located in Fuijan Fukien province, they exhibit the three step
motions. Too me, it suggests that these arts have a common root.

The way power is generated in WC and SPM, is very different. WC you stand tall, or lean on your back leg to drive you. SPM you expand and contract, the rounded back is the key to your techniques and your power. My Bak mei experience is limited but again it expands and contracts. Also the training forms, WC
gives you three basic forms, that in a simple format outline prinicpals and motions. They are designed to be easy to learn and are easy to be taught.

SPM, in Chow gar your first form is the system. Its a training method, as you progress more of the applications are shown and you learn to use it to train different principles. Other branchs of SPM, have similar formats, a single form which contains all the priniciples of the system. The difference is that its more of a training tool, in that it can be used to train different things, if you understand the motions.

Also were is the Iron Body training in WC ? Its in SPM, I know its in HG as well :-P, to me, it adds weight to the theory that WC was a designed to turn out powerful fighters in a short time. You strip the style down, so its easy to teach, easy to learn. To me, with the Hung Mun and secret socities it makes sense. Lets step away from the legends for a bit, and do some of our own imagining. ;-) You're part of a political group, some members are good fighters, you're going to be traveling in 6 months to a years time. What are you going to put in a system to make it most effective? You're going to put together some easy to learn forms,
some easy to learn drills, and try and reduce the number of
movements to a few key positions. A simple stance to drill with, some simple footwork, especially if your going to be hiding for long periods of time.

Well thats my ramblings for the minute :-P

[TenTigers]

Hi Tom, and no, I am not picking on you either,..but.....what you said about tan sao is what I am taking issue with. Now I understand that different teachers teach different things according to personal preference, etc, My current Wing Chun Sifu-Alan Lee, who was a direct student under Yip Man, and Sifu Lee's Si-Hing, Duncan Leong, teach a few different types of tan-sao. There is the forward one that you spoke of,but there is an outer whipping tan-sao (you saw Bruce Lee use this in Chinese Connection fighting the Russian Boxer as a matter of fact)there is a downward whipping tan-sao, there is an outside 45 dgree angle that will destroy a hook punch, there is a covering tan-sao. pressing tan-sao, etc, so simply because your Sifu told you about one type of tan-sao, doesn't mean that all others are not correct.
As far as the Hakka arts-(I've also studied Bak Mei P'ai, and a smattering of SPM) Hung-Ga also uses foa/chum,hoi/hop,tun/tow, and also has multiple impact strikes, as do "certain schools" of Wing Chun. Although not always the same way.
Tom, you should pick up Robert Chu and Rene Ritchie's book on Wing Chun. It will really open your eyes. There are many styles from many different lineages of Wing Chun and many bear a striking similarity to other styles such as Hakka arts and Hung Kuen. Gu Lao Wing Chun is very Hung-Ga like in many respects, and Robert Chu, having achieved high levels in Wing Chun as well as Hung-Ga can attest to this.
The power generation in "some schools" of Wing Chun comes from whole body integration, yes the back leg and elbows are involved, but the entire body moves into the punch. "Certain schools" of Hsing Yi, as well as Hung-Ga use this energy. From what I've seen of Alan Lee, Duncan Leong, and also Moy Yat's schools-all of whom were direct students of Yip Man this power is evident. Your Wing Chun Sifu might not teach this until later, each teacher has their own methods. Hey, I've met Hung-Ga Sifus who say, "You can be with a Hung-Ga Sifu for 12 years, you won't even SEE the Iron Wire form."-and Yee Chi-Wai teaches it as a requirement for Black Belt level. So who knows?

[illusionfist]

Still, all the examples that have been used are based on physical shape and not on the issuance of ging and the differentiation in power within the kiu sau. Kim Yeung Ma cannot be the common denominator between these two arts. There are many other systems out there that use kim yeung ma. Are we to think they are all linked just because they share this common trait?

Another thing that comes up is the beginning of fu hok. So instead of just wandering about the issue, lets analyze it. TenTigers, and whomever else knows both systems, list the postures within that section that are considered to be wing chun moves as well. Lets go more into internal mechanics rather than shape. If they can be compared on this level, then it will mean a lot more than just physical shape.

Snake and Crane was also used as a means of correlating the two arts. Lets go into this as well. Those that think the snake and crane in wing chun is similar to that of hung gar's snake and crane usage, please illustrate whatever postures you think are similar and how their ging relates.

I feel by doing this, we'll be able to analyze things more on a technical and foundational level for both of the arts, and quite honestly, it'll weed out anybody who doesn't have a sound knowledge in either system and is just merely arguing based off physical shape.

Also, i think we need to establish which lineage of Wing Chun we are talking about. If we are using Yip Man lineage as a base, then i'm still game for argument, but if we are using rare and obscure lineages, i'm more inclined not to argue because i have not had that much experience with them, and with some of these lineages, a siu lum feel is more apparent than what is found within the Yip Man lineage. So please clarify on the lineage as well.

Peace :D

[tparkerkfo]

I am with illusionfist on talking techniques and ging. Lets move away from shapes since it can be confusin, hence my dophin/shark thing earlier. LOL.

As far as wing chun, I am from the Leung Sheung Lineage. But I am not sure there is much difference between wing chun lineages since we all do things fairly similar, though the details are different. I am also familiar with Pan Nam system as taught by Eddie Chong. That to me is a wing chun system with a lot of Hung Gar mixed in. Primarily with Pan Nam's background.

Hi Andrew, good to put a name with a face....errr handle. LOL. I don't mean to suggest that wing chun and mantis are directly related. However there is some similarities which may suggest a connection. Other people have made this conneciton. But I can not say it is true. What I see is similar stance work and posturing. Of course it is similar in visual only. The exact methods are very different. The close frame of the upper body is key as well. All these arts tend to keep the elbows with in the bodies frame work and out in front to some degree. All these arts use a shocking or short range sort of power. Granted they are done very differently. Stepping in a triangular method is similar in all of these arts. Ofcourse they very quite a bit. I see these traits as possible connections. I see little of these things in Hung Gar. But my arguement isn't about linking wing chun with the hakka arts. It is the hung gar and wing chun conneciton.

denali, Yes many years have past and it is understood each art will have been modified. However, Wing Chun keeps its common core regardless of the lineage. Yik Kam, Wip Man, and Yuen Kay San wing chun all stem from different lineages at the begining of wing chun's history. Yet they all are fairly similar. Hung Gar comes from Shaolin and it is easy to see the connection with any other shaolin art in the very stance work alone.

Ten Tigers, I have that book. I speak with Rene on occasion and have spoken with Robert several times. I am well aware of Roberts beleifs and his backgrounds. I have studied some of Pan Nam's wing chun so I am not completly closed minded. I have seen some Yuen Kay San and a little Yik Kam as well as Hung Fa Yi. Of course this doesn't mean much other than I am familiar with lineages outside of Yip Man. Also, I don't really think Gualo is any closer to Hung Gar than Yip Man's wing chun. If you make the statement about Gualo, then you can also say the same about Yip Man's wing chun.

What Yip Man taught is open to speculation. I too know a first hand Yip Man student and he says at that time Yip Man was not teaching himself and rarely ever touched hands. My lineage is from Leung Sheung. many people feel he got the real stuff, others say he did not. There are many interpretations on what Yip Man taught and what the student comprehended. The tan sau does indeed have a range of motions that it can be applied. Probably the best guide is to check the dummy form. In anycase, simple wing chun concpet implies that everything goes towards the center and not out to the sides of the center line. Yes I am aware of the double fak saus in SLT, but I don't think that is a litteral expression of the technique. In any case, the tan never, in my opinion, goes from the inside gate to the outside gate in an arc from the elbow. It is not similar to the Karate block in any case. In Fu Hok, that tan sau does indeed drive outward. That is not tans saus strong point. Of course this is my opinion only.

I too beleive that the whole body is used in wing chun. In fact, it is paramount in our version. This is the one thing that does make me question the connection between the two arts. I feel a similar conenciton in my hung gar as well. But really, this is it so far. I am fairly new to hung gar, so I am still exploring it. But I jsut dont, see the ging relations between the two arts. I don't see the stances. I see a few shapes and the body linkage to some degree. I'll even give you that tan is in hung gar. Bong, pak, and biu are as well. By the way, are any of these in any of the haaka arts? But I think there is more than this that consititues a linking between the two systems.

Out of curiosity, does any high level Hung Gar or Wing Chun person claim a linkage, other than from legends? I have spoken with Chiu Chi Ling a couple times and he said there were many similarities, which he demonstrated the pak and tan in particular. Leung Ting is working on different theories. A friend of mine is also working on different theories, if you read the wing chun section. We may not agree, but it is a facinating subject.

PS, I am not arguing jsut to argue or to support a certain position. I am genuinely interested since I study both arts. It makes little difference to me if it is proven one way or the other. I am just trying to resolve what I hear, see, read, and am taught.

Keep it up.
Tom
________
Homemade vaporizers (http://homemadevaporizers.info/)

[illusionfist]

TenTigers- You said you learned from Yee Chi Wai. I thought that all of Yee Chi Wai's schools were called Yee's Hung Ga? So are you affiliated with him?

Its funny that you mentioned Robert Chu. Although he is versed in both systems, there is a reason why he decided to stick with Wing Chun. He even had a convo with Yee Chi Wai about it and Yee said, "you have to choose one or the other, you can't have both." So thats why i find it funny that you draw the correlation between the two arts using kim yeung ma as a basis, because even Yee Chi Wai himself doesn't think they can mix and are quite different.

With that being said, the underlying factor to this is power generation. Hung Gar and Wing Chun have very different takes on this. All of which use differing methods to achieve their respective gings. If you use Hung Gar faht in Wing Chun, or vice versa, you dilute the techniques and deviate from the actual principles that are indicative of the particular faht.

So lets present a hypothetical situation here-

Can you do chain punches in sei ping ma and still get the same power that WC generates? Can you do Hung Gar element punches in WC stances and still get the same power that Hung Gar generates?

So once again i'll reiterate my assertion that physical shape means very little when comparing systems. The ging or methods of power generation and issuance are of principle importance. So i propose another question-

What comes first- technique or faht?

TenTigers, i also remember a while back that you said Hsing Yi (Ying Yi) is similar to Hung Gar as well. So now we have a Hsing Yi , Wing Chun, Hung Gar combo that we can use. So lets look at Gum Hong (metal) in both Hsing Yi and Hung Gar. Do they look similar? Based on appearance they are actually quite different, but they are both metal, so why is that? The method of both systems is what sets them apart, and a key issue in this is footwork.

With that being said, we can use footwork as a good point of reference too. When we have the five elements, bagua is the next thing to pop up in the overall cosomology. So in hung gar, we have bagua stepping (not to be confused with the actual art of Bagua jeung). We know that a key to power generation is footwork. So where is the bagua stepping in WC and Hsing Yi? If the footwork is so much different, and we know footwork aids in power generation, how can the power be the same? How can the comparison be drawn? If power is derived from the chut sing, which is partly based from the earth element principle, how can these three arts be the same in the fashion that you are stating?

Even with a very simple analysis, it is clear what distinguishes these systems from each other. The ging is what distinguishes them from each other. If this were not true, then we would not need three because one would suffice.

Peace :D

[Andrew]

I think that the original question has been lost a little.

The question is do WC and HG have a common root?

I think everyone agrees that the faht of both styles is different.

Tom has suggested that WC roots have some correlation with White Crane and Hakka styles. I would argue that the fahts are radically different, in addition to this the techniques don't even overlap. Sure the ranges and some of the methods are the same. But human mechanics is such that there is a superior technical postion. I've found some overlap with HG in this. But the power generation is different and the techniques are different.
So both Faht and Technique are different.

At least in HG the techniques overlap. Sure the fahts are different, but at least the techniques are the same.

[Andrew]

The other thing is were the arts are from and how easy it was to get to differing parts of china, 300 years ago. Migration of people's would shed alot of light on the development of a art.

[DF]

HuangKaiVun- Who cares about whether or not there was mixing in the past? What about all the mixing NOW????


I don't think mixing Hung Ga and Wing Chun in the long run is a good idea. If you looking for more options, maybe. However if you are talking about intermixing the two styles together into one, I see many contradictions in many areas that can be counter productive.

DF

[Dark_Samurai]

So, if I understand well, nobody really knows hehehehe...

:cool:

[HuangKaiVun]

DF, that's true from a lineage standpoint.

But from a FUNCTIONAL COMBAT perspective, that's not the case.

There are things that Hung Ga does that Wing Chun doesn't do, and vice versa. Both can help each other, particularly in the reality of fighting a resisting opponent.

And like it or not, guys like Tentigers and myself and our common sifu were heavily influenced by studying both styles concurrently. Our fighting reflects both influences - and then some.

Not everybody is capable of learning more than one style for combat, but there are plenty others who CAN.

[TenTigers]

okay, forgive me for jumping around, but I'm not writing a book, so here goes:
One,Kim Yeung Ma is NOT the common denominator, it is merely one example of many. Try not to think in simple technique oriented examples-Hung-Ga and Wing Chun are CONCEPT oriented systems, and the forms reflect that.
However,to look at form...in the opening of Fu Hok Seurng Ying Kuen, you will see such movements as Gum-sao,tan-sao,pak-sao,wu-sao,fook-sao, jut-sao,biu-jee,and jow-sao. Now, application will vary depending on situation. Simply showing the shape or form does not imply JUST ONE interpetation of application, but and entire world of possibilities, each one changing depending on energy recieved, or transmitted,intention, and technique. Here, IllusionFist, I am in agreement with you.
Herein lies the problem; One person might say, "That is not Hung-Ga/Wing Chun/etc" because their particular teacher did not present it as such. No one 'style' "Owns" a technique. Technique is technique.Period. If I step in and do pak-dar, sure there's going to be that guy who says, "Oh that's Wing-Chun" -No, that's pak-dar.
Someone mentioned using Yip Man lineage Wing Chun as an example, because it would be easier to make comparisons. I beg to differ; I have trained with six different teachers, ALL of them Yip Man Wing Chun-ALL of them different in approach, and application. Sure, the forms looked pretty similar, but that's all. One guy does tan-sao one way, the other guy says, "That's crazy, Tan-sao should be like this" -nope, don't wanna go there.
Another example, when I mentioned similarities in Hsing-Yi Ch'uan, that does not mean that simply because they both utilize the elements, that they are the same. I never implied that. They interpet the five elements completely diferent. I was simply saying that both styles utilize "The whole body is the fist" in their body integration. When they strike, the entire body, not just the arm, or waist, but the body moving behind and with the strike. Again, you are getting caught up on small details and not thinking conceptually.
Here's an example of what I'm trying to convey: In leftand right cran'e comb punching technique-the pheonix eye strike/wood element technique in Fu Hok-Tang Fung (Yuen Ling.Yee Chi-Wai) there is a circling of the wrist and forearm after the strike. I asked Sifu Yee if this was Jow-sao-(running hand-the ability when your strike is intercepted, to flow around the strike), and he said that it was. That is simply one topic brought up for conversation-meaning, that it was one example of one type of running hand. If you were to then put EVERY type of running hand in the form-small, large, over, under, right left, inward, outward, etc the form will go on forever. And that is but ONE technique. If you were to find each variation on EVERY technique in your form, how long would that form be? Endless. ENDLESS!!! It is not neccasary to put in every variation. That is whay we have CONCEPTS as the 12 bridges and their uses and qualities-which on another board is being discussed as the 12 usages. In other words, each bridge has not only a technique, but 12 qualities of energy, which is 12x12. So each technique uses the concept of 12 bridges and 12 qualities, do we add in 5 animals, 5 emotions,5 elements? etc,etc? Do the math, how vast is Hung-Ga? Mind-boggling, no?
These arts were never meant to be spoon-fed. So, there are many similarities, but don't get hung up on semantics, and small insignificant details. But...then again, "My Gung-Fu is MY Gung-Fu. It may not be YOUR Gung-Fu"-Rik Kellerman- dang, I love quoting myself!

[illusionfist]

Well quite honestly, i understand that the expression of the hung gar system is quite profound, and i am not arguing this. This was the whole point of the "sum faht" discussion we had going on SF. These very concepts that are at the root of 'sum faht" in Hung Gar are what totally disprove that Wing Chun and Hung Gar have any link outside of a few physical shapes.

You keep writing off the stuff i say as "simple technique oriented examples" and then you say hung gar is conceptual and so is wing chun, yet you have not compared them using the same conceptual point of view from which you are basing your argument. Then, quite honestly, you go back to simple technique oriented examples using wing chun terms to explain whats going on in fu hok. No mention of the four corner poems, etc that are indicative of that particular section in Fu Hok. No comparison of the conceptual at all. If my approach is from simple technique oriented examples, than you have missed the entire point of my previous post, which none of the questions were even remotely answered, by the way. Technique or faht? Remember that one? You describe the techniques (with wing chun), yet have no reference to the actual faht that make up that section in fu hok, either using wing chun or hung gar faht as comparison.

We dont have to delve too far into the hsing yi thing, that wasn't my intent. I just took it further to show that it was drastically different. So you say that hsing yi just uses the whole body power similar to what hung gar does. Fair enough, yeah they both have some good paan ging. You said wing chun uses whole body power as well, is it the same power as hsing yi or hung gar?

Honestly, if you just say, "no thats not wing chun. thats pak da" you are making reference to a tool without its usage. An art gives that tool the take on its usage, which isn't always the same from system to system. Now granted, certain tools are just made for a certain job, but a person can always innovate and use the tool in a different and higher proficiency than somebody else. A pek choy in CLF, Hung Gar, and Wing Chun isn't just a pek choy. They all feel different because of the particular arts stance on power generation. Just think of what hung gar does alone in the sense of fueling a technique with its five element usage. Gum and soi are two examples that can be used and they both feel drastically different. This is the conceptual stuff, not simple technique oriented discussion. The common mistake is to think conceptual and not remember the fighting usage within said concept. They go hand in hand. Hence the discussion on the 12 bridges (conceptual) and the 12 treasures/usages (application/usage) at SF.

So the bottom line here, compare the conceptual then. Illustrate whats the same.

Peace :D

[DF]

HuangKaiVun- DF, that's true from a lineage standpoint.



My statement has nothing to do with lineage point of view.
You are not the only one that learned more than one style, most folks been around has done a number of things. There is a reason why one choose to specialize in one style rather than mixing. If you feel mixing is the way to go, then by all mean go for it.
It is your kung fu,you walk the path the way you want to.


DF

[tparkerkfo]

Hi,

Maybe WIng Chun is related to hung gar, and maybe not to the hakka arts. Hard to say. I do see some similarities with hung gar and wing chun, but not enough to say they are related. Hung Gar and wing chun both have traditions, especially hung gar. hung Gar has maintained many, many elements that are core. Many may have been introduced around wong fei hung's time, but many go further. I do not see these elements at all in wing chun.

Wing Chun is not animal based. There are no elements. No 12 treasures. There is no shaolin salute that is in almost every so called shaolin art. The faht is very different. Hung Gar is powerful and overwhelming, wing chun is soft and illusive (this is a generalization). Hung Gar maintains the several stances, wing chun has YJKYM and a front stance.

I do not know enough first hand of the hakka arts to say definitivly if they came from there. That is an idea I was playing with and a few others with more expereince than I seemed to think it was plausible. White Crane seems to have some correlation though. As far as wing chun not having a Phoenix eye, that is silly. Yip Man's first student in Futsan, Lun Gai, was taught the phoenix eye. He has it in most all photos. You can also see it in Wong Shung Leung's video.

So, those that beleive there is a hung gar-wing chun connection either say that wing chun is a stripped down version of hung gar, or it was radically modified. Out of curiosity, why would it be? We know that wing chun is fairly intact since the mid 1800's on the red boats. Before that, all bets are off. Acording to legend though, we have Ng Mui, Yimm Wing Chun, and her husband. So, one of those people would be responsible with modifying wing chun. We also know Hung Gar existed in some similar method during Wong Fei Hung's time. Is fathers was probably similar at the core. This would mean, according to legend, that Gee Shim, Hung Hei Goon or Luk Ah Choy made the changes. But I am not sure as to why?

It would make sense to compare Yip Man's line for two reasons. The first is simple, how many people have experience with arts out side of Yip Man's? Very few. And those that do, like me, have very little. The second reason is Yip Man's style may be distinct, but it still holds the roots. It is very similar to Yuen Kay San's and a few other lineages. By similar I mean the over all structure is fairly close dispite many differences as sould be expected as both arts have evolved.

The next side note to add is there does seem to be three arts that have a hung gar connection of sorts. Jee Shim Wing Chun(video clips can be seen in the wing chun forum), Hung Fa Yi, and Pan Nam Wing Chun. Pan Nam wing chun has a lot of similarities, but Pan Nam did study a village style hung gar for 20 years or so prior to wing chun. Gee Shim has a lot of similarities with both styles and they link their wing chun directly to gee shim and not ng mui. That would be an interesting thing to look at. hung Fa Yi also has some interesting structures and their story is kind of interesting. However, it is not really accepted as being true dispite many of there claims. There are a lot of problems intheir stories. However, it is interesting.

Yes, I too understand the concepts. Indeed there may be varous ways to performs certain techniques. But keep in mind many things, not every one who studied under Yip Man learned the art well. Yip Man did not teach a lot of people. Some say no one got all the information. I only say this because we need to be carefull when we use them as examples. It was mentioned that 5 different wing chun people all do tan sau differently. I agree to a point, but they all should be doing it similar. If it is radically different, they are doing it wrong. Some have a flat tan sau, others have an angled tan sau. Some have a bent wrist and others dont. But, they all use it farily similar with only minor changes. Those that swing it are just plain wrong. Wing Chun is built on structure. Each hand HAS to have a structure to be effective. This structure dictates how the hand can be used. Tan sau can not receive and hold sideways pressure. When it does, it changes. It is strong when pressed from the front.

Just some notes
Tom
________
MARIJUANA BUBBLER (http://bubblers.net/)

[yuanfen]

Andrew asks:
I think that the original question has been lost a little.

The question is do WC and HG have a common root?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Congratulations!
You folks have been engaging in a nice long discussion on this...
But IMO( a predominatly wing chun perspective) to answer Andrew:
In red boat days... lots southern gung fu borrowed things from each other. Despite a hung gar sifu's (California) statements,
or a White Crane stylist's(Boston) pronouncements...
Wing chun is wing chun- not hung gar or white crane and has to be understood on its own terms. Thus the pole and knives are in wing chun and hung gar but the uses and the details are quite different. Same for "crane" motions.Most styles have borrowed things from here and there in their evolution. Things that look similar are not always the same.

[tparkerkfo]

Thinking about the conersation, lets start off by asking when` we are talking about a connection? Are we talking a recent connection, ie 1800's? This would put is around the wing chun red boat and A Wong Kei Ying era. Do we suppose it is earlier? Perhaps late 1700's, or early 1800's. That would put us around after the shaolin temple and prior to the red boats and the Wong family. Or do we suppose that the influence is in Shaolin?

I think that might help to lay out on the table what we mean by originating or a common link
Tom
________
Arab Cooking (http://www.cooking-chef.com/arab/)

[TenTigers]

Hi Illusionfist. I'm not argueing withyou, I think we are in agreement for the most part,but I am bringing up topics for discussion. The only reason that I mentioned the specific techniques in Fu-Hok was because I thought you wanted to discuss them,sorry for the misunderstanding. You mentioned that I used Wing Chun terms to explain what was going on in Fu-Hok. That's because that's how I was taught. Pak-sau was pak-sau. I used these terms with other Hung-Ga teachers, they also used these terms as well.
" hsing yi just uses the whole body power similar to what hung gar does. Fair enough, yeah they both have some good paan ging."-
That's basically what I was referring to.
" You said wing chun uses whole body power as well, is it the same power as hsing yi or hung gar?"
In the Wing Chun that I do, in some (some) instances, yes. Look even Hung-Ga generates many different types of ging for different reasons, but there are places where these styles meet.
"No mention of the four corner poems, etc"
No, but concepts are concepts, with or without kuen kuit. Just as some people call it "12 treasures" , Pretty name. I like it.I never used that term, but simply broke it down into qualities of energy and application. It's nice to have a name for it, but what's in a name? Too many people, and you've seen this as well, can quote( in perfect Cantonese, no less), every name, technique, prose, dang -even quotes from Lao Tzu, but what do they have?We've all seen these guys, they watch far too many Gordon Lau movies and pose too much jumping around 'trying to fight'. oops. got carried away!
" Can you do chain punches in sei ping ma and still get the same power that WC generates? Can you do Hung Gar element punches in WC stances and still get the same power that Hung Gar generates? No. Obviously. But there are still techniques that they both share. Let me ask you, the opening sequence in Fu-Hok (yeah, yeah, I know, but listen..) it is (In my form) performed in Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma. In LSW it is in feet parallel. So, what footwork/stance would you use for each technique? I think we could both agree that you certainly wouldn't use them just standing there! um...would you?;-)
Oh, I am not a Yee's Hung-Ga school. I am my own entity-long story, perhaps in a separate e-mail-feel free to do so. But I do maintain good relations with Sifu and all my Si-Hings, and I will always support them however I can. (I'm kinda like that illegitamate red-headed stepchild that keeps showing up at the family picnic)
I would love to see a side by side comparison. The thread on the other board is great. I tried to get one going between Guang Ping Tai Chi, Yang Cheng-Fu Tai Chi, and Erle Montaigue's "Old Yang" form, but these guys all backed down.
I'm just saying that Fukien Siu Lum is what these systems claim as their origin. Hung-Ga has the reputation of being the system that remained completely intact, all others being 'specializations" more or less. If you extract the Snake and Crane techniques, you have what resembles Wing Chun- If you extract the element punches, the leopard section, and butterfly palms, you have what appears to be the basis of Choy Li Fut, the Dragon section (not LSW) and snake resembles Bak Mei and Loong Ying. Element punches and Crane sure looks like Lama-could be the chicken and the egg, depending on whose story about Sing Lung you take,
Yes, I said RESEMBLES. I did. I said it. BUT...different people will take what they prefer, based upon body type, experience, preference for specific technique, etc, and over years they expand on this and make refinements, and develop it into specific styles. Sure, ging, faht,will change , etc,part of the growing process, but If they all have origin in Nam Siu Lum, as they say they do, AND..If Hung-Ga is what people consider the closest thing to the original Siu-Lum Fut Ga Lo-Hon Kuen, then doesn't it stand to reason? Or is it pure coincidense? Look, I may be right, I may be wrong. But it is fun to tear apart systems and see the underlying techniques that separate and bind them together.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Ten Tigers,

Good post. Not trying to argue, but just to have a good debate. A few things come to my mind. The first being that there has never been any proof of a southern temple in Fukien. There are absolutly NO records of the place. In fact, the only place it exists is in the martial community. Actualy, same with the five elders from shaolin. And those numbers depend on which martial legend you listen to. Some say much more. Opps, a small correction, the triads seem to also mention the shaolin temple. But they list totaly different names of survivors. Well, atleast according to Leung Ting. Since I don't really know any triad members, I'll take his word on it ; ) But what we have are legends that are billed as facts. Apparently the PRC has found some excivations in Fuiken provence that they claim may be the Fiuken temple. Some "Scholoarly" experts believe it to be. Others do not.

Is Hung Gar a root art and other branched off of it? Could be. But that is not quite how I was thinking. Rather, I was thinking the shaolin had several different arts that were very similar. Each one had there own take on things. Thus Choy Li Fut and Hung Gar share many similarites, as do many other shaolin art. Shaolin has a reputation for brining in many outside arts into its folds. This suggests that many other arts existed outside of shaolin. Hung Gar's Long Pole is a great example. I don't beleive you can distile wing chun from hung gar, nor do I believe you can distile Leung Ying and such from hung gar.

I have a hard time beleiving all arts started at shaolin. Maybe they did, but I don't buy it. We have Tai Chi which has no connection. There are many arts from the white crane temple. Many other arts claim different lineage.

If your thinking that wing chun specialized from hung gar, it would have had to have happend prior to the red boats, since we have fairly similar arts stemming from that period. If we listen to legend, we have 3 people that could have done this: Ng Mui, Yim Wing Chun, Leung Bok Cho(? ah, I forgot his name at the moment). Since Yimm Wing Chun was not a real martial artist, I doubt it was her. It is possible that it was Leung Bok Cho since he is said to have connections to shaolin. However, that would mean he was already experienced with shaolin type arts and I can not see him being the genius to redesign the art. Perhaps Ng Mui. She would have been more familar with fighting arts since she came from shaolin. According to Yip Man, she was at the white crane temple, which had its own distinct fighting arts. Perhaps she learned other stuff there and that influenced what she taught Yimm Wing Chun. Of course these are just legends and we don't know which story to beleive since there are so many variations.

Just throwing things out
Tom

Tom
________
Mercedes-benz gl-class (http://www.mercedes-wiki.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_GL-Class)

[Ming Fai]

Hi, just my two cents: the Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen we know nowadays is actually a fairly recent form created by Wong Fei-Hung and Lam Sai-Wing around 1900, so wouldn't it be a bit odd to judge Wing Chun (a style which is said to be more than 200 years old) based on the 1st section of Fu Hok?

The same goes for Tit Sin Kuen, which was added to Hung Gar curriculum by Wong Fei-Hung... So actually, from the question: "Does Wing Chun have connections with Hung Gar? I can ask: "Well, what do you consider to be Hung Gar?"

[Geezer]

Tom Wrote>

Opps, a small correction, the triads seem to also mention the shaolin temple. But they list totaly different names of survivors.

I found this on the History Channels website,


Triad Society

Triad Society, name given to a number of Chinese antidynastic secret societies by 19th-century Western observers. Most of these groups claimed descent from the Heaven and Earth Society (Taendi hui) or the Triad Society (Sanhe hui), two secret societies of the late 17th cent. that had originated in Fujian prov. The avowed purpose of these societies was to overthrow the alien Manchu Ch'ing dynasty and to restore the native Chinese Ming dynasty. Societies sharing a similar ideology, ritual, and terminology spread all along the SE China coast. In times of peace the secret societies functioned as fraternal organizations, but they often became involved in criminal activities and at times armed conflict with rival groups occurred. Poor peasants, itinerant workers, and others who lacked strong kinship ties found security in the fraternal ties and in the protection offered by the societies. The Taiping Rebellion (1850-64) brought a revival of secret-society militancy and anti-Manchu sentiment, but local groups continued to function independently and no hierarchic organization was achieved. Branches of the Triads assisted Sun Yat-sen and other revolutionaries to carry out armed insurrection against the Ch'ing dynasty in the decade before the republican revolution of 1911. The Communist government of China launched (1949-50) a campaign to eliminate secret societies soon after assuming power. Triad societies persisted outside mainland China and among overseas Chinese. For the activities of secret societies in N China during the Ch'ing period, see White Lotus Rebellion; Boxer Uprising.

[tparkerkfo]

Intersting Sheldon,

Any specific information about the Hung moon? There were several different triad groups around but I beleive it was the Hung Moon that Hung Gar was associated with. I have heard that wing chun ahd ties as well. But unfortunatly most of this information is not public, for obvious reasons. But how I would love to be a fly on the wall and here about there accounts of the history.

Tom
________
Silver Surfer Vaporizer For Sale (http://www.vaporshop.com)

[TenTigers]

Hi Tom, no arguement here, just havin fun!
As far as Chinese Martial history is concerned, most of it is handed down verbally, mixed with legend, and wishful thinking, etc. But...in Fukien White Crane history, there is Fong Chinyang who learned her father's Siu-Lum and White Crane and lived in Youngchun(wingChun) county in Fukien, and was referred to as Fong Wing-Chun, her art was also called Wing Chun Fukien White Crane-kewl, huh?
As far as China is concerned, they found the remains of Julian Shan Temple-Fukien Siu-Lum and rebuilt the temple,although not on the exact site-huh? Go figure.
There are striking resemblances between Tai Chi and Shaolin-specifically Hung-Ga (Oh no, here he goes again)
Chang Seng-Feng was reputed to have been a Shaolin master befor going to Wu-Dan, AND there was a General Jiang, who studied and taught at Shaolin, before going to Chen Village, and teaching Chen Family, AND...Yang Lu-Chan, was already a well accomplished fighter well-versed in Shaolin before going to Chen Village, and some say he studied with Jiang there, AND..(yep, there's more) If you compare Yang Tai=Chi with Hung-Ga, you will notice some startling similarities. (oh no, he's doing it again!)
Look at withdraw and push, brush knee and press, shoulder strike,white crane spreads wings, fair lady works the shuttles,separate hands and kick,etc, you will find almost IDENTICLE postures within your forms. I am not going into a debate about application, faht, ging etc, we all know how different styles develop, through refinement and specialization, etc, etc, so we won't go there. But the fact that these arts have so many similarities, unless..they all tapped into the universal source, yes, that's it. Perhaps it works the same way many schizophrenics have the same delusion that the Government, aliens and the C.I.A. are attacking him through microwaves and televisions and phones, and cause them to line their apartments with aluminum foil..hey, do you think that's why wu-shu swords are made out of foil too? Is there a connection? Coincidence?
I THINK NOT !
okay, perhaps we should stick to technique!
-Rik Kellerman-aka TenTigers

[Geezer]

Tom, I found this,


The Hung Society
The Model for many later Chinese secret societies including today's tongs and triads.

by Peter Huston





It was only relatively recently in Chinese history, within the past five hundred years or so, that relatively modern secret societies (distinct from religious cults) became widespread. Although there was a great deal of variation from time to time and place to place, these tended to follow common, culturally prescribed patterns.




The Structure and Organization of a Hung society branch


During the Ching dynasty (1644-1911 A.D.) two styles of secret society became prevalent. By style we are referring to a certain set of organizational structures, carefully preserved traditions and patterns of behavior which their members were expected to follow. The first of these, the Hung society, was most common in the south. As most overseas Chinese came originally from the southern provinces of Fujien (Fukien) or Guangdong (Canton), this is also the style of secret society most commonly seen outside of China, including in North America or South East Asia. The term "Hung" means Red, but it is also a ****nym for the Chinese word for "brave." Although Hung societies continue to exist today, they are often modified in various ways. Furthermore, although it might not be exactly correct, since we are discussing the original version of the Hung societies for simplicty and clarity this chapter will use the past tense, except when referring to something that specifically refers to the present.
The second common variety of secret society are the Ching or "Green" societies. These are based on a style more common originally in the North of China. The Ching societies will be covered in full in a later chapter.

The basic unit of the Hung society was the lodge or local branch. It was to the local branch that the members of a sworn brotherhood owed their primary loyalty. This is the group that held meetings and from time to time called together members of the society. In some locations, there existed higher levels of organization, but these had limited duties. These "headquarters branches" or "master lodges" (as some texts call them) would not normally interfere in the day to day running of the local chapters of the society. Although members of these headquarters branches tended to be old and respected members of the sworn brotherhoods, they were chosen by the majority decision of the senior officials of the local branches. It is believed that generally their role among the local chapters was quite limited and consisted primarily of arbitrating inter-chapter disputes so as to avoid needless and unprofitable inter-chapter conflicts. In some places and times, the headquarters branch had strict regulations preventing all but themselves from starting additional branches of the Hung society. At other times, however, just the opposite was true and anyone familiar with the rituals of the Hung society could start a new branch any time they were able to recruit sufficient followers.

Footnote One Although a society member would see those in other chapters as people who he had a great deal in common with and should help if possible, it is important to remember that the Hung society organizations were primarily local institutions based in a particular place and time. At times, the local chapters of a society might work together to accomplish certain goals or aid one another, but it must be understood that the local groups were generally only loosely united, if at all. During times of national crisis or a large scale uprising of some sort, the groups might combine forces. Nevertheless, when this occurred it was not uncommon for there to be a great deal of difficulty or friction over the process of choosing a combined leader. Often this proved impossible and Hung society uprisings were frequently spasmodic disorganized affairs which bore more resemblance to a widespread riot or prairie fire than they did to a military operation.

For example, in Guangdong province in 1854-1855, a Hung-style organization known as the Red Turbans rose up in revolt against the Ching government. Although this was a widespread uprising which spread across several counties and involved tens of thousands of people fighting in some battles the rebels never developed a centralized leadership. Footnote Two Similarly, even during the large turn of the century Boxer uprising, effective centralized leadership of the Boxers proved to be a problem. Footnote Three

Even the members of the so-called headquarters branch saw themselves primarily as members of their local chapter rather than as members of a larger organization. In fact, this localized aspect of the institution may have been one of the key reasons why the societies spread so quickly and easily. Frequently, the loose organizational structure made it surprisingly easy to start a branch of the society. No centralized permission was needed, merely a knowledge of the oaths and rituals and the desire to do so. This cell-like structure meant that if one branch died, became exposed to authorities or were otherwise destroyed there was little effect on other branches. No single individual could betray the entire organization, because no single individual had the ability to do so.

Clearly, it is entirely incorrect to see the many secret societies of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries as a single, large, centrally controlled organization held under the sway of a tyrannical despot who ruled from hiding. Not only did the technology prohibit attempts to control the geographically widespread societies in such a fashion, there was little benefit to the group as a whole from such centralization.

In many ways, the headquarters branch of the organization was not really a headquarters at all, but instead more of an "inter-branch council." Any levels of organization above this tended to be highly dependent on the personalities of the people involved. Individuals might arrange for cooperation among the different chapters for a limited amount of time or a limited enterprise, but this level of organization was not a normal aspect of secret societies. These alliances would be more dependent on the power, ability, experiences, levels of respect, or even favors owed, of the individuals involved, rather than their official ranks within the organization.

The details of the physical meeting site of the lodge or branch could vary widely. If a society existed in a place where it was legal, it could own property or even own an elaborate temple. When a tong was outlawed, as many were in the former British Crown Colony of Malya, it might simply hold intricate initiation rituals in jungle clearings or other secluded outdoor locations. Lookouts were posted to ensure secrecy and provide warning in the event of a police raid.

Ward and Sterling, writing from the early 1920s, have left us with a detailed description of the Hall run by the "Ghee Hin Society" in Singapore in the late nineteenth century when the organization was legal and flourished openly. (It was later banned in the colony of Singapore.) The hall was located at number 4, China Street and apparently had two stories. As Ward and Stirling's book is virtually impossible to obtain today, and the description is rather interesting, it seems worth quoting from at length:


"Upstairs, attached to the wall, was a shrine containing the tablets of the Five Ancestors, (note: prominent characters in the legend of how the Hung society was founded.) and before it a table on which was an incense burner with incense. In front of this first altar stood another, on which was a second tablet with the incense burner dedicated to the late brethren, and over this hung a red lamp, i.e. the 'Hung Lamp.' On either side were two chairs. One for the Master and the other for the Instructor or White Fan. Along the wall on either side were ten chairs for other officials.

The temple, or lodge room, was square and had four gates; -north, east, south and west, -and on the uprights and the lintels were written verses as follows:-


On the Eastern Gate,
'To the East where the element of wood stands it is difficult to go,

Sun, Moon, mountains, and streams all come from the Eastern seas.'

On the Southern Gate,

'The fiery road to the element of fire is hot,

But in the distance Chang, Ts'uen, P'ing and Nankin it is cold.'

On the Western Gate,

'On the narrow road of the element of metal you must be careful,

Of the two paths it is clear that there is no impediment on the one which leads to the West.'

On the Northern Gate,

'At the sign of Yin-kui the water is deep and difficult to cross,

But in Yun-nan and Sze-Chuen there is a road by which you can travel.'




On the top of each door was a pavilion, surmounted by a calabash, which was an emblem carried by one of the Eight Immortals. (note: The Eight Immortals are prominent characters in Taoist mythology and ancient Chinese literature.)
The walls were decorated with squares and triangles, and over the various Gates were hung different types of weapons. The stones at the bottom of the wall and the boards of the gate were made to look like dragons' scales. In the middle of the Hall were three gates, one in front of the other, and beside each gate two men were stationed who wore red kerchiefs on their heads and carried swords in their hands.



Here's the link,

http://www.capital.net/~phuston/hung.html

[Geezer]

Beyond these gates stood the Hall of Fidelity and Loyalty, within which was the genealogical table of the Founders of the League, which stood in a shrine called Khao-khi, after the famous temple.... (note: At this point, Ward and Stirling recount the entire lineage of the society as described in the genealogical charts on the Lodge wall. We have deleted this information.) On either side of the names of the Great Founders is placed two sets of characters. On the right side as you face the tablet appear the words.




'Yin and Yang united produce everything by metamorphosis': and opposite on the left,
'Dragons, tigers, tortoises and snakes are assembled!'

Below these, in a line with the Five Tugers Generals, on the right hand side appears,

'Kin-lan Hall, The Spirit seats of the successive generations of our kindred,'

And opposite, on the other side,

'Mwan-thao Hall. The ancestral seats of the successive generations of our kindred.'




Downstairs was the common meeting Hall or place of worship, and it was usually here that the picture of the God Kwan Ti was displayed. It was in this room that the Master communicated the traditional history previous to admitting the candidates into the Lodge."
Footnote Four

As the description illustrates, the lodges of the Hung societies were intended to be much more than a simple meeting place. Instead, they were designed to emphasize the proud traditions and heritage of the groups, as well as remind members of the mystical aspects of these teachings. In fact, much of the writings on the wall refer to aspects of the traditional legend of the founding of the Hung society. (This legend will be repeated and discussed in the next chapter.)

Today, in most major North American cities which have a Chinatown it is possible to find the headquarters of the tongs, themselves branches of the Hung society. To someone familiar with their names and able to read the Chinese characters, these buildings are clearly marked. Many of them are quite elaborate in their architecture. (See photo 10-2 of a Tong headquarters in New York City.)

Today in Hong Kong, membership in a Triad society (and the triads are descendants of Hung societies) has been outlawed and it is illegal to conduct Triad initiation ceremonies within Hong Kong's borders. For this reason, many of the initiation ceremonies of the Hong Kong Triads are held in nearby Macao and the groups meet in hiding.

Footnote Five
THE STRUCTURE OF A HUNG SOCIETY BRANCH-

The Hung society structure is intended to emulate a family of sworn brothers. In China, however, it should be remembered that not all brothers are neccessarily equal. Although family members are supposed to love one another and live in peace and harmony, they are not equals. The Chinese family is hierarchial in nature. The older brothers are seen as more important than the younger brothers. The younger brothers are supposed to be obedient towards the older brothers. This respect for elders, even elder brothers, is a key component of Confucian teachings. Elders, after all, are perceived as having superior wisdom, and therefore society benefits when the younger members of society obey and respect them. In return for this obedience, it is expected that the elders and superiors will rule with wisdom and compassion keeping the best interests of their inferiors and society at large in mind at all times.

It follows that although the Hung society is intended to be an organization composed of sworn brothers, it does not mean that it is an organization of equals. Far from it. There is a definite hierarchy and organizational structure within a Hung society type organization. Table 10-1 shows the organization of a local branch of the Hung Society Headquarters or Major Lodge. Table 10-2 reveals the composition of the local branch. As can be clearly seen, there was a definite structure to the organization. This structure led to division of tasks as well as a definite system of ranks and officers. Although there were many variations on the basic structure, just as there were many off shoots of the group in many places and times, this standard structure or some close variant was common to most Hung society groups.

Each headquarters branch had a leader. Underneath the leader were two of the most important officers in the group. These were the Incense Master and the Vanguard. Although these two officers were of equal rank, their duties differed, and therefore friction, competition and conflict between them was minimized. Together they were charged with the organization and performance of all initiation and promotion ceremonies. Together they were charged with the organization and performance of all initiation and promotion ceremonies.

The Incense Master was essentially the high priest of a Hung society. As such he was charged with the responsibility for the proper performance of all ceremonies and rituals. The Vanguard's duties were slightly different. Although he had priest-like duties, his primary concern was administrative. He was charged with the responsibility of overseeing the expansion of the society and ensuing that such expansion happened in a manner that would be in the long term best interests of the group. In accordance with these responsibilities, he was the only member of the society who could establish independent branches without the consent of the leader. In at least some societies, the Vanguard was also responsible for the storage of all weapons owned by the society.

Underneath these three key officers, there were five primary officers in a Master Lodge. Each of these had specific responsibilities and duties. These three officers, the Leader, the Incense Master, the Vanguard and the heads of each of the five key sections totaled eight in number. In traditional Chinese mysticism and numerology, described more fully later in this chapter, both the numbers five (as in the five divisions) and eight (as in the eight officers) had great significance. Within the Ko-Lao Hui (the Elder Brothers Society), a secret society that used and modified many of the Hung society institutions, these eight officers were referred to as the Lodge of the Inner Eight. Footnote Six In other organizations, it seems that these eight officers did not have such an elaborate designation, but they were quite respected and their duties essential to the continuing function of the organization.

Much of this information comes from W.P. Morgan, a sub-inspector in the Royal Hong Kong Police whose landmark work, Triad Societies in Hong Kong, came out in 1958. According to Morgan, the officers in the headquarters branch were chosen by majority vote from among the senior officials of the various local bodies. These officials not only had the ability to choose these officers, they also had the power to remove them from office if they were unsatisfied with their performance. It should be noted that such a structure, with the underlings able to remove their superiors when dissatisfied, is contrary to many stereotypes and would contribute to a much looser pattern of behavior and control than many would suspect.

These eight officers were not the only members of the headquarters group of a secret society. They would also have a variety of assistants and others to help them fulfill their duties and complete their jobs successfully.

The five administrative divisions were based on function, and for this reason some, naturally, had more personnel than others. The leader of each divisions was a Senior official who, although of high rank, was underneath the group's Leader, Incense Master, and Vanguard. These were the General Affairs section, the Recruiting section, the Organization section, the Liaison section, and the Education section. The five divisions are shown on Table 10-1.

The General Affairs section was responsible for the routine, day to day matters necessary for the well being of the organization.

The Recruiting Section was responsible for not just recruiting and related duties, but also official communication with the outside world. Recruitment included the registration and investigation of new members. Among other duties were writing and spreading propaganda. This section was also responsible for social interaction with the world outside of the group. Ward and Stirling mention that in Malaya the recruiters were referred to as "Horse Leaders," although they do not state why. Footnote Seven

Having a special section whose duties included social interactions with the ordinary public and recruiting showed a great deal of sophistication. These are exactly the places where many underground organizations go wrong and find themselves at odds with the authorities. An underground organization that has lost the respect or support of the ordinary people around it, will not last long. Equally importantly, a secret society that hastily recruits the wrong sort of people will soon find all of its secrets spread far and wide by talkative recruits. Nevertheless, it cannot be assumed that such an organizational structure always existed. Morgan was writing in the late 1950s in the sophisticated cosmopolitan center of Hong Kong. Dian H. Murray, a historian at Notre Dame University, studied the early days of the Tiandi Hui (the Heaven and Earth Society), one of the most prominent and influential of the Hung societies, and discovered that, in fact, the organizations eighteenth and early nineteenth century recruiting practices were rather haphazard. It was only when the organization was at its most sophisticated that it could hold firm to this structure. In the early days, or in places where the group was young and being spread quickly and rapidly by inexperienced members, often the recruiting section did not exist. Recruiting and starting new branches was a job any member could undertake at whim. Footnote Eight

[Geezer]

The Organization section was responsible for controlling the activities of the branch societies, as necessary. Among its duties were controlling the various branches and inflicting punishments, when required, on members or non-members. When major combined operations were undertaken, they were controlled by the members of this headquarters branch.

The Liason section was charged with carrying out communications between the headquarters branch and the member branches. At times, the members of the liason section had special names, among them being "grass sandals" or "night brothers." Footnote Nine

The Education and Welfare branch was charged with the maintenance of schools set up by the society for educating its members children. It was also responsible for general welfare duties, including funeral arrangements for members and their families. Funerals and burials have an extremely important place in traditional Chinese culture. Among Chinese tongs in America, often one of the most important services to members was the way in which they would preserve the remains of their members and ensure that they received proper burial in China. This changed only when the Communists seized China and put an end to the practice (as well as interfering with the practice of many Chinese funerary traditions.)

Although each local lodge had its own officers and organizational pattern. Nevertheless, these tended to follow the same pattern of five divisions as seen in the headquarters or master lodge. The chief leader of the lodge was a leader or deputy leader. Each division, or department, also had its own leader. In 1950s Hong Kong, all of these leaders were chosen for fixed periods of time and replaced at the end of their term by fresh appointees. As the duties of each of the five divisions of the branch are quite similar to those of the headquarter's branches, there is no need to repeat them in detail here. The important thing to remember is that the headquarter's officers were supposed to coordinate large scale matters, while the local lodge members were supposed to coordinate things which concerned their own lodge.

One key difference, though, lay in the structure of the local branch's organization section. At the local level, this division was expected to control a number of "fighting sections." Each fighting section consisted of ten to fifty members under the control of a "Hung Kwan" official. The number of these fighting sections could vary widely and together they composed the organization's de facto army.




-RANKS AND NUMEROLOGY.


There was a great deal of mystical significance in many of the details of the structure and terminology used by the Hung society. Within the hierarchy of the organization, each rank had several names and a number. These numbers had a special meaning. For example, a leader was also known as a "4-8-9" while a regular member was known as a "4-9". These titles were pronounced as a series of digits, not as a single number. I.E "four, eight, nine", not four hundred eighty nine, or "four, nine", never "Forty nine."

The significance of these digits comes from a variety of sources. The first is something known as "the Magical Number Square", illustrated in Table 10-3. This table is quite important in Chinese Numerological teachings. The numbers can be added together in any sequence, be it diagonally, vertically or horizontally, and the result will always be fifteen. This has been considered to be magically significant.

Secondly, within Chinese numerology, each individual digit has a special significance. Some numbers are considered to be quite lucky while others are said to be rather ominous or unlucky. Chinese cosmology teaches that it is desirable whenever possible to have a balance between Yin, the passive aspect, and Yang, the dynamic, active aspect of things. All odd numbers are considered to be Yang. Conversely, all even numbers are considered to be Yin. Certain combinations of digits are considered to be particularly desirable and fortunate. These lead to a proper balance of Yin and Yang, as well as a beneficial combination of the digits with their underlying meaning. Some of these digits are more auspicious when used in certain combinations. The numbers used as titles for the Hung society ranks conform carefully to this belief. For instance, every number begins with four which is even or Yin. In every case, this is followed by a Yang or Odd number.

When the number four is pronounced in most Chinese dialects, it is a ****nym for the word for "death" or "die." It is therefore avoided whenever possible and not normally used much by Chinese. For instance, many Chinese hotels do not have a fourth floor, as few Chinese would wish to stay on it. This is similar t the Western practice of skipping the thirteenth floor. In fact, in places like Hong Kong, it is not uncommon for some hotels to skip both the fourth and the thirteenth floor in their numbering.

Perhaps the use of the ominous number four contributes to the Hung society mystique. Footnote Ten