Yantai Bung Bo and Laiyang Bengbu

[mantis_seeker]

Can anyone comment on these two versions of Bung Bo?
I practice 7* PM (HK mantis) and have seen other 7* from
mainland do Bung Bo. The mainland and HK bung bo were
very similiar. I have heard this is what some call Yantai
Bung Bo.
Does Laiyang Bengbu also resemble the Bung Bo I know?
This is the version I know http://www.northernmantis.com/bungbo.html


Thanks

[mantis108]

Greetings Mantis Seeker,

As far as my understanding goes, the HK version is pretty much the Yantai Bung Bo (Crushing/crash Step) which is also know as Xiao Beng Bu (small crash and fill) that was accredited to GM Liang Xue Xiang. It was popularize in Yantai County through GM Jiang Hualong of TJPM (GM Liang's direct student) when he was teaching in Yantai. The title of the form could have been changed form Beng Bu to Bung Bo due to error through oral transmission. But then it might also be intentionally done because of the inner desciple or outer desciple practice.

I must first say that I have seen a form call the Big Mantis (Wah Lum's version) that is tought to be a version of the Laiyang Beng Bu or Da Beng Bu (big crash and fill). As far as my research on the forms goes, the Laiyang and Yantai versions share certain similarities, ie form structure and technique combinations. I would avoid commenting further on the Laiyang BB since I haven't learn it. I would think ALKungFu would be the person on this forum to shed some light on it. Of course if Sifu Ilya Profatilov would comment on it then it would be even better. :)

On the subject of Yantai Bung Bo, the mainland 7*, HK 7* and even the Yantai TJPM versions are very very similar to the point that one knows it has to be from the same source (I have learned both versions). The interesting thing about it is that Yantai Bung Bo has a 2 men Ling form while the original Laiyang Beng Bu don't. It is not consider as the original way in the Laiyang tradition to have Ling froms. To confuse the matter a bit further is that the CCK TCPM (HK version of TJPM which I practice) has the Yantai Bung Bo that has a different openning and closing sequences reminiscent of the Laiyang Beng Bu. The CCK TCPM version also has a 2 men Ling form that is yet different than the 7* versions (HK & Taiwan). That is to say the applications and strategic thinking behind the 2 versions are quite different. 7* seems to be more hard style while the CCK TCPM version is relatively softer. I suppose one can conclude it as there are notable stylistic differences within the same framework. It is never a question of which is better but rather a question of realizing the full potential of Praying Mantis Kung Fu or at least in an attempt to explore that possibility.

Hope this help. :)

Mantis108

PS If you are intereseted in further info on the matter, I could post a link to some posts concerning it from my forum.

[mantis_seeker]

Hi Mantis108,

Thanks for the great info. I was not aware of the wah lum connection. Do you know if the characters are the same for beng bu and bung bo? Could this be a dialect difference between Cantonese (spoken in HK) and Mandarin? As I know it bong bo is cantonese for beng bu.



It is never a question of which is better but rather a question of realizing the full potential of Praying Mantis Kung Fu or at least in an attempt to explore that possibility.

Well said mantis108!

I hope this post did not come off as which version is right or better. That was not my intention. I just recently heard about Laiyang bengbu and Yantai bengbu being based off an older bengbu. This was the first I had heard of this, since my training is in 7*, and was intrigued. I was not even aware the bung bo I know is also called Yantai or Small bung bo! So this is very interesting to me.

Any info anyone can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[mantis_seeker]

Also, Bung Bo is taught as a foundation set in my school. In that all the movements is one of the twelve keywords. I know that other 7* schools have similiar keywords as ours. When my Sifu taught us the form he also told us what keyword each posture is doing and the 2-man ling set is based on that.
I am curious if Laiyang Bengbu is taught like this also. And how their keywords dictate the applications.

mantis_seeker

[mantis108]

I believe the Laiyang BengBu (without the Laiyang part of course) is the older version that you mentioned. BengBu means crash and fill while Bung Bo is crushing step (there is yet to be a satisfactory explanation on that title).

The 12 key words in 7* lineages and Meihua lineages are quite different. I believe Sifu Lee Kam Wing used moves in Bung Bo to explain the 7* 12 key words in his book as well. That certainly is a very interesting and pragmatic approach to showcase the 7* 12 key words. As I have said before I am not in the capacity to comment on the Laiyang Bengbu. I wish I could though. :(

Regards,

Mantis108

[ALkungfu]

Here's some info about the Bengbu forms:

Bengbu (Crash and Fill In), also known as Liayang Bengbu is very different
from Yantai Bengbu, only a few moves are the same.

The earliest reference to Liayang Bengbu can be found in “Praying Mantis
Boxing Manual” by Master Liang Xuexiang (1810-?) written in the mid 1800s.
The manual describes 3 forms — Bazhou (8 Elbows), Luanjie (Chaotically
Connected) and Bengbu (Crash and Fill In).

All these original forms are preserved in Grand Ultimate PM tradition.

Laiyang Bengbu was transmitted from Laing Xuexiang to Jiang Hualong and Song
Zide. Jiang and Song taught it to Wang Yushan...

more on this later

AL

[ALkungfu]

Here's some more on Bengbu:

1. Laiyang Bengbu

Laiyang Bengbu is also called Xiao Bengbu (Small Bengbu), or Lao Bengbu (Old
Bengbu).

It is called Lao Bengbu (Old Bengbu), because it is believed to be the
closest to the original Bengbu form. In fact, its manuscript, recorded by
Master Liang Xuexiang, dates back to the 1840s. Laiyang Bengbu is one of the
oldest recorded PM forms that are still practiced.

It is called Small Bengbu because of a stance Xiao Dengshan Shi (Lesser
Mountain-climbing stance), which is used a lot throughout the form.


2. Yantai Bengbu

On the other hand Yantai Bengbu is called Da Bengbu (Big Bengbu). Da
Dengshan shi (Major Mountain-climbing stance) is more prevalent in this
form.

Yantai Bengbu is also more popular around the world.

Close variations of Yantai Bengbu are taught in different lineages of PM —
Hao Family Plum Blossom PM, HK CCK TCPM, Yantai TCPM, HK 7* PM, Yantai 7*
PM, etc.

Hope this helps you, mantisseeker.

AL

[mantis_seeker]

Hi Alkungfu,

Thanks for the info. I am not familiar with the stance Xiao Dengshan Shi. Is this like jade ring stance or circle entering?

I too was taught bengbu, launjie, and bazhou are the oldest froms in PM. We were told they were the only forms created by Wang Lang. Sad to hear the version of bengbu I know bears little resemblance to lao bengbu. Is Grand Ultimate PM the only style that perserved this form?

I personally know three different versions of launjie and two versions of bazhou all within the seven star style. The only thing that seemed to stay the same were bengbu. Any idea how this version of bengbu became so widespread among the different lineages of PM?


mantis_seeker still seeking

[mantis108]

Thanks for the clarification. :)

I had the Da and Xiao mixed up. Glad you come to the rescue. Anyway, I appreciate for the info very much.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[ALkungfu]

mantisseeker,

<Thanks for the info. I am not familiar with the stance Xiao Dengshan Shi.
Is this like jade ring stance or circle entering?>

"Xiao Dengshan Shi" is also called "xiao shi" or "small stance". It is
similar to HK 7* jade ring stance or circle entering stance.

<I too was taught bengbu, launjie, and bazhou are the oldest froms in PM. We
were told they were the only forms created by Wang Lang. Sad to hear the
version of bengbu I know bears little resemblance to lao bengbu. Is Grand
Ultimate PM the only style that perserved this form?>

According to GM Wang Yuanqian, Laiyang Bengbu is only known to be taught in Grand
Ultimate (Plum Blossom) PM of Jiang Hualong and Song Zide's heritage, which
is a rather well known style in Shandong but little known outside of China.


<Any idea how this version of bengbu became so widespread among the
different lineages of PM?>

Yantai was a place were many talented martial artists met and exchanged
thier knowledge of kung fu. Most of the well known and popular styles of PM
were taught in Yantai. All of these styles have Yantai bengbu as a part of
their curriculum. As it was said before, these styles are — Hao Family Plum
Blossom PM, HK CCK TCPM, Yantai TCPM, HK 7* PM, Yantai 7* PM, etc.

Liayang Bengbu was taught only in Laiyang area, it was originated from this
area and the only style of PM popular there was Grand Ultimate (Plum
Blossom) PM.

best regards,
AL

[Joe Mantis]

Thanks Guys for the insights.

The WL system calls their version "Big Mantis." They don't even mention it as Beng Bu/Beng Bo.
If I read this Thread Correctly then this form is most likely from the Grand Ultimate Style of Praying Mantis?

If anyone knows, why wasn't the Laiyang version taught as a two person? and What method was employed in training the techniques of this version?

Thanks in advanced.



TAINAN MANTIS

I sent you and E-mail and pm about this topic before I found the thread. Sorry to have missed you in Tampa.

[Tainan Mantis]

WL beng bu or big Mantis was called Beng Bu by Master Chan years ago. He also emphasized the specific technique "beng Bu" in the form when he taught it.

7* and HK's TJPM both have 2 man set of Beng Bu.
Having learned both versions I find the solo is similar, but the partner is very different. My educated guess is that they were developed independantly.
Mantis108 you say?

Start training techniques after learning some "cross the ocean" fighting method.
Then drills from 12 flexible
then techniques from forms

Sheng Hsiao's 2 man explanation has about as many techniques as would be found in one road of a form.
So for a 6 road form he explains it as 6 two man sequences.

For example.
Beng Bu 2 man can be done 1st road only.
If you don't knock down your opponent after all that then break apart and start over.

Some 2 man beng bu forms have person who does ling change throught the form.
So back to Beng Bu...
After I do first road I then become Ling and partner does 2nd road.

The problem with ling forms is that you are training to be coordinated with your partner instead of training to mess him up.

[mantis108]

Hi Tainan Mantis,

<<<WL beng bu or big Mantis was called Beng Bu by Master Chan years ago. He also emphasized the specific technique "beng Bu" in the form when he taught it.>>>

Thanks for the info. That's very interesting. So there is actually a technique called beng bu in WL version? I wondering if it is a footwork technique?

<<<7* and HK's TJPM both have 2 man set of Beng Bu.
Having learned both versions I find the solo is similar, but the partner is very different. My educated guess is that they were developed independantly.
Mantis108 you say?>>>

While I think the possibility of an independant development is very high, I also have come across material that seems to suggest that the 2 versions are not entirely unrelated. I believe an important piece of the puzzle lies in the Tao Jie (steal intecept) 2 men form. Where did this form came from and who taught this form to whom? There are remarkablely similar flavor in the TJPM 2 Men Beng Bu version and Tao Jie. I suspect someone, who is very well versed with the Tao jie, helped to develop the TJPM version. May be Kung Fu exchanges was more popular in Yantai than we think.

<<<Start training techniques after learning some "cross the ocean" fighting method.
Then drills from 12 flexible
then techniques from forms>>>

I believe it would be very beneficial to us all if you'd elborate on this.

<<Sheng Hsiao's 2 man explanation has about as many techniques as would be found in one road of a form.
So for a 6 road form he explains it as 6 two man sequences.>>>

Is this about Beng Bu or his explanation applies to Beng Bu or other mantis forms in general?

<<<For example.
Beng Bu 2 man can be done 1st road only.
If you don't knock down your opponent after all that then break apart and start over.>>>

I think the 7* version primary assume the opponent to retreat orderly with a linear retreat route. It would also seem that the opponent pace himself rather well with his counter. The forward pressure is alway kept high with the 7* version. The exponent is apparently more of an aggressor. TJPM on the other hand has the opponent being more aggressive and agile. Often the opponet will retreat and return. Sometime he would circle around the exponent. It has more of a softness overcome hardness quality in the TJPM version.

<<<Some 2 man beng bu forms have person who does ling change throught the form.
So back to Beng Bu...
After I do first road I then become Ling and partner does 2nd road.>>>

That's certainly an outstanding way of drilling the form. Thanks :)

<<<The problem with ling forms is that you are training to be coordinated with your partner instead of training to mess him up.>>>

I think the beauty and scope of ling forms really elevate them to the plane of art. In other word, it is where martial in union with art. IMHO, it is the closest thing to a model even ideal fight scenario as we can get in classical Kung Fu. Having said that there is no reason that any party in the ling form can not break the rythm or "harmony" of the form. In fact anyone, especially the eager novices, can do that. But to point out the mistake while bringing the drill or the road quickly back to normal flow (with the help of some other hands) without even stopping the drill; that, my friends, is what separate a master with a student.

Warmest regards

Mantis108

[mantis_seeker]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the great info. Thanks to alkungfu, mantis108, and tainan for the great input.

mantis_seeker

[Tainan Mantis]

Hseng Hsiao's PM does not include beng bu, luanjie or 8 Elbows.
Though 8 Elbows exists as its concept. Namely hitting with 8 short parts of the body.

Beng Bu is hand and feet together.
It exists in your version as
-White Crane Spreads its Wings and Receiving Fist. # 14 and 15

"Cross the Ocean"
is the method of closing the distance. You have some good examples in your TJPM, such as Wind at the Back of the Brain.
Also several times in Beng Bu when opponents break up, they must Cross the Ocean to resume the attack.
This does not exist in the HK 7* version although it exists in some 7* versions in Taiwan.