why are there so few posts on fighting here?

[Excession]

Why is it that the vast majority of posts, in the southern styles section of kungfuonline, do not deal with self defense?

Do we not have the expertise here to answer these questions or the practitioners to ask them?

Might it be because the majority of posters do not focus their training in that direction? But then why would these people take up a martial art?

A stock response may be for fitness/health reasons. But why a martial art. Isn't a martial art first and foremost a system to help you defend yourself? If physical and mental well-being are your priorities, do yoga. It's not that ludicrous an idea. It gives you exactly what you want with no other rubbish you don't want or need.

Maybe they do it for a sense of community. Once again, why a
martial art. All sports clubs offer that. Most more than a martial arts club does. Think of your local cricket club, a lot of guys only play so they can sit in the pub afterwards.

Then there's the possibility of doing it just for the image. When you tell someone you do a martial art, they assume you can fight and there's a little bit of mystique attached, so your ego gets stroked a little. But you could get that same boost from playing rugby etc. for your club/school/varsity team. Could it be that some choose a martial arts setting because they cannot get these boosts from other sources because they are not good enough to excel in sports with such a large player base. Then the choice of a martial art makes sense. You find a suitably obscure style or simply one with few practitioners or one with people like you and what do you know! You're a big fish in a little pond! There may be many martial artists in the world, but how many are in your style and do you go out and train with them, or do you stick with the 15 other guys in your class.

Granted, this is a rather cynical viewpoint, but how else can you explain joining a martial art and not intending to learn to defend yourself.

[TenTigers]

sometimes, what people say and what they really feel are two different things. People will easily say they take martial arts for fitness, health, etc, but to say self-defense is to admit fear, and that in itself is a hard thing to do. It is far easier to say self-confidense, self-esteem, which can all be a result of having the capability to protect yourself, and your family.
Myself? I'm 45 yrs old, don't get into alot of fights, so my reasons have changed somewhat. But when I was a kid, I was bullied, and definately wanted it for that.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

People,

Like I had said earlier, southern kung fu is NOT good for fighting. It is good for lion dancing, dressing up in traditional coustumes and perpetuating old chinese customs. But fighting it is not.

Southern Kungfu was practised by farmers who hid away from the Ching and other government officials when they rode into town.

Shaolin temple was populated by weaken monks from too much meditation. They had to devise a type of kung fu to bring their physical health to be on par with the average person at that time.

Some saliors in the red junk formulated Hung Ga. Rather then for fighting, they used it as a chance to dress up - some as ladies, because in the "navy", most of them were men. They hosted parades and stage shows to please the government officials and the villagers.

Southern kung fu was practiced by either village people or those in the navy. I am delighted that a fellow friend from the southern hand put up this poll. If he were to have listened to what I'd been saying along, the conclusion would be quite evident.

I look forward to your response or you can continue tormenting Goktimus. Your choice, pleases me either way.

By the way, I know of a southern Kung Fu sifu who's too scared to front up to his own challenge against me on national tv even though I'm a cripple.

[Fu-Pow]

Why is it that the vast majority of posts, in the southern styles section of kungfuonline, do not deal with self defense?

I'll tell you why, because Southern Kung Fu styles kick ass and everyone knows it. Choy Lay Fut, Hung Ga, Southern Praying Mantis, Bak Mei, Lung Ying, White Crane, etc. are all kick ass, no frills styles. We don't sit around wondering whether are stuff actually works, we know it does, in every situation. We don't sit around talking about usless metaphysical concepts like chi, we train hard, we make our legs solid, we make out bodies resistant to attack by conditioning them and we do freestyle sparring where people actually hit each other. For those of you that missed it....southern kung fu kicks ass!!!!!

[nospam]

..uhm could it be that the vast majority of fighting questions are asked and thereby answered on Street/Reality Fighting & Kung Fu forum..???? Huh? Huh? Maybe? Ya thunk??

Besides, this space is best used for important threads such as the HISTORY of CLF :D

nospam.
:cool:

[Diu Sao]

'Besides, this space is best used for important threads such as the HISTORY of CLF '

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Nuff said... thank you. It is foolish to downplay another set group of styles, it only adds weakness to your arsenal.


Diu Sao

Former northern stylist

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

F-Pow:

I've seen wing chun players getting beatern up in a UFC ring and agaisnt boxers. My experience agaisnt southern kung fu players of many school lends support to what I have seen. I agree Southern kung fu is "no frills" to the extent that all who practice them are short changed.

nospam:

I actually agree with you. This is because there's a gulf between what you practice in southern kung fu compared to what is useful for real life self defence.

Diu Sao:

If you think that reading history is more important than discussing combat tactics, then you be a historican not a kung fu fighter. Maybe that's because the fighting quality of CLF is so poor that all it has going is fabricated stories.

People:

If you find that debating with me is too much of an interlectual challenge, you can always torment that goktimus whipping boy of yours who doesn't seem to be botherned with you anyway. Again its your choice!

[Diu Sao]

Actually I know very little about the history of CLF, as I am new to the style. I been in a street gang, prison and I am a body guard. I am no stranger to violence and have had my share of the worst. I have been shot at, beaten by police/prison guards, stabbed 4 different times (in the stomach and neck) and beaten until my skull fractured. I have gone to jail 3 times for assault and battery. If there is one thing I know, it's fighting, even before I started martial arts. I love discussions on techniques and philosophy, but I feel that to bad mouth a group of styles should be beneath you. I have read many intellegent posts by you and I would think you'd stay away from that. I am not trying to start an arguement I just think there are better things to say and discuss. Thanks for the reply though.


Diu Sao

[Fu-Pow]

Actually I know very little about the history of CLF, as I am new to the style. I been in a street gang, prison and I am a body guard. I am no stranger to violence and have had my share of the worst. I have been shot at, beaten by police/prison guards, stabbed 4 different times (in the stomach and neck) and beaten until my skull fractured. I have gone to jail 3 times for assault and battery.

lol....I think you should change your handle to "Lucky."

[JAZA]

Wow Diu Sao, I thought you were a kid. :)

[jon]

Wicked someone who wants to answer my questions on 'fighting'.

How do i 'block' a leading leg hook punch?
Is there an 'effective' way to counter a double leg when your opponent already has hold of both your knees - while remaining on your feet?
Whats the best 'gaurding' postion vs a boxer?
Is it more effective to pivot on the ball of the foot or the heel?
Is a palm more 'effective' than a fist?
Whats the 'most painfull' move that you can do to someone?


I hope you can see where im going here.
Talking about fighting is great fun but to be honest its a load of bs. Its compleately subjective and whatever you say i could say something almost opposite and still be perfectly correct.

If i ask you how to block a jab and you respond by saying 'duck' then i can simply say 'why not slip'?

This is likely the reason you dont see many posts along these lines. Most of us realise its a little bit futile to try and glean actual fighting *skill* of the internet. Sure you can learn about history or many other interesting things. However i would hardly use it as a way of trying to learn counters or techniques.

[nospam]

Fu-Pow.

lol....I think you should change your handle to "Lucky."

..aint that the truth ;)

Ego_Extrodinaire

This is because there's a gulf between what you practice in southern kung fu compared to what is useful for real life self defence.

Seeing that this is but a written forum, we're all entitled to opinion. And you know what? For the most part I agree with you too, but in a much broader sense of the term, 'fighting' ability and MA.

MAs today is crap. Most do not enter it to fight and when you get a new generation of teachers who are not fighters, then that lineage, no matter the style, is watered down. I've been saying this for a long time.

Plus, to be a good fighter takes something other than what your teacher is capabe of teaching. It is a personality trait. I believe this trait can be massaged to an extent, but if you don't have it..you don't have it. And there are some MA styles out there in combination with teachers who have that 'trait' that can and have taught students even with an avg sense of the 'trait' to become proficient to good fighters using, again, a combination of MA style and natural ability.

Now, most of us would like to believe we are the select few with the trait and even luckier still, to have that teacher who can teach one to fight. But the reality is most of us have not. Have I? Am I a good fighter? Am I a good teacher?

And because this is a written forum...brother...you aint never going to know. Here, we can only offer opinion and talk about experience - and who knows how much either or both are bull, troll, or something I could slap ya with on the backside of your skull..know what I MEAN?

Unless you (in terms of YOU who is reading this) and I have issue to fight..not spar..either one of us will ever know. Most of us couldn't care less, I'd imagine. Besides having a need or want to read and respond to any given thread. My gung fu isn't about YOU. It is about me, my teacher, then my style. If I am doing what my teacher's teacher taught him and so on, then I never, ever will worry whether YOU think I can fight or not. Yeah..I like this response. I like it a lot.

nospam.
:cool:

[Excession]

Ten Tigers
Makes sense. Maybe there should be two polls, the second being "Why do you continue to train in a martial art?". The difference in the two may be interesting.

Ego_Extrodinaire
Maybe I'm a bit slow, but, what is your conclusion.

Fu-Pow
But then why do we, so frequently, get chastised for being the opposite? Or why then, are there not people queing up to ask self defense related questions from the "kick ass southern practitioners"? Could it be the few "kick ass" practitioners have been drowned out in a sea of posers, and the multitude of instructors willing to take their money for teaching what is really aerobics.

nospam
But why is there a need for that distinction? Is it a recognition that most of what makes up modern martial arts is not related to self defense. If a martial arts style is for self defense then wouldn't most posts be about that? Why would we be content to defer to those 'specializing' in self defense. Surely we should be those people.

jon
Like Ten Tigers, you make sense. But isn't the beauty of the internet the ability to gather opinions and be able to decide what is useless and what is functional? If I disagree with my instructor, isn't it a good thing that I can get other opinions? Ones that may help me better understand why I might be right/wrong. My mother and grandmother are/were both teachers and I give extra math lessons, so I understand the value of having more than one explanation of a problem, and that a different angle may be the difference between being clueless and 'getting it'.

I hope people don't think they can learn to defend themselves from a forum, but it should be used to further stimulate a mind that has been educated at the dojo/kwoon. If kung fu training was self defense oriented, wouldn't most posts reflect that. I certainly believe that the type of questions we ask stem from wanting to know more of what we've been taught.

Some people don't know the right questions to ask or how to ask them, either through inability or lack of experience, surely this forum provides a way for beginners to learn the right way of asking questions. The beginner should go back to the dojo/kwoon with all sorts of questions for his instructor. "Are ducking and slipping the same thing, if not, what's the difference", "these guys reckons i'll hurt my hand if I punch with a fist, is it true", "what do you think of mma", "why do we learn this","i wasn't too sure what you meant, is this it"

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Excession:

My conclusion, if the voting sample so far reflects what the international community of southern kung fu thinks, that I conclude that the main motivation is NOT self defence.

Right now 14.29% of the people voted for self defence. If out of this, we exclude the posers who pretend to teach self defence, which is about 90% of this percentage, we have 1.43% of these people who are actually learing true self defence.

And out of these, if we take nospam's comments onboard and exclude those that are NOT natural fighters (I'll be generous here and say it is 50/50 split), we have 0.71% who can adequately defend themselves.

This percentage is hardly statistically significant, which confirms what I have known about southern kung fu players all along - they just simply can't fight!

We can't increase natural talent, but we can increase our persuit for self defence to raise the total percentage of those who study kung fu to become able to defend themselves. That means you!

[jon]

Excession

First and foremost that was a darn good post. I have to say i agree with basicaly everything you have just stated.

I think however that sadly discussions relating to actual application are nearly always doomed to fail. People will frequently argue and bicker over interpretation and generaly seem more interested in proving others wrong than actualy providing factual information.

I personaly look for people posting regarding mindset and power generation in posts. As you say much can be learned from these exchanges. However there are also many contradictions. This is where it gets truely complicated.

Still im sad to say i agree with you totaly but i honestly cant really think of a reasonable solution either.

[Excession]

jon

"People will frequently argue and bicker over interpretation and generaly seem more interested in proving others wrong than actualy providing factual information."

While visiting forums on programming, that quote came to mind. Those forums tend to be full of useful information as a result of there being little room for interpretation or distortion of facts. It works or it doesn't, and anybody can code and prove it. The few times they do degenerate are when subjective topics, such as Microsofts takeovers and support for java, based on opinion, are discussed. So maybe constructive discussion on self defense, in this forum at least, will be a pipe dream for a while.


Ego_Extrodinaire

I respect your opinion, but these results can hardly be considered valid, we've got an insanely small sample group about which we know nothing other than they frequent this forum. To take these as a basis from which to construct an argument and draw such startling conclusions seems a bit naive.

Assuming you're correct... Why, from what you've seen, if not for self defense, do people choose martial arts, above all other available pastimes, to fulfill their needs?

[HuangKaiVun]

Ego is a fake, Excession.

He's challenged me repeatedly, but I can't find him.

I've given him my address so that he can come get me, and still nobody has shown. Nobody will either.

If you look hard enough, Excession, there is a small community of fighters out there.

Keep your eyes out for posts by myself, Tentigers, Sifuabel, theblacktaoist, maoshan, draco, rogue, and Sam Wiley.

Those men are professional kung fu men and actually TRAIN AND FIGHT daily.

[jon]

HuangKaiVun

Honestly friend you belong in a comic book.

"Keep your eyes out for posts by myself"
"Those men are professional kung fu men and actually TRAIN AND FIGHT daily."
* You are about as professional as the girls down on the corner.
I seem to remember you also claiming to be a 'professional' violin player as well at one stage. So which is it now huang are you the concert violin player contantly being challenged by the classical crowd to prove your worth or have you now flipped to being the 'professional' kung fu instructor who knows where the real deal is at?

Either way your putting yourself up on a cloud is going to do little to rectify the shattered reputation you have on this forum.
The other posters you have labeled are all worthy of being cited but i find it highly ammusing you claim yourself amoungst them.


When was the last time you had a 'fight' huang?
Appart from trying to get a well known internet troll to fight you in a wheelchair on Jerry Springer;)

My guess is your only battles are in text over the internet.

[nospam]

nospam
But why is there a need for that distinction? Is it a recognition that most of what makes up modern martial arts is not related to self defense. If a martial arts style is for self defense then wouldn't most posts be about that? Why would we be content to defer to those 'specializing' in self defense. Surely we should be those people.

surely this forum provides a way for beginners to learn the right way of asking questions.

Yikes man...you hold too much stock on 1) this forum and 2) the people who frequent this place. And besides, reason is an individual path.

I'm sure your cognizant that what you might be looking for ain't gunna be what 90% of the folks around these parts are looking 4...know what I mean? Perhaps not.

Hey..yo...I've an idea...ask a 'self-defense' question. Be part of the direction as opposed to a passenger on a trip ya don't even wanna take :D

nospam.
:cool:

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Jon,

Every knight needs to slay their dragon to rise in the ranks of chilvery. Every on line sifu needs to slay their troll. HungKaiVun's efforts are making a mokery of himself. It is him who keeps getting the backhanded treatment from one he perceives to be a troll. The "troll" is running circles around him as he has backed himself into a corner whereby he has little choice but to appear on the Springer show else he be called a chicken for all time. He said he would challenge the Ego on his terms. Ego has stated his terms and they are just to hard for Huang to handle.

But he's right, watch what he has to post - more public humiliation for HuangKaiVun, unless he does what Ego says and apologizes to all for flaunting his pride. But from his last post, he is far from doing that as it is too had for a 4' boy to take the path of a man.

[HuangKaiVun]

oopth, jon.

I FORGOT to mention YOU as a knowledgeable source of martial arts.

Notice how I made no mention of how tough I was as a fighter? I have and will get beaten. That's YOU making up stuff about me.

I have a lot of respect for you as a martial artist, as you really do know what you talk about. You don't believe it a bit, but I KNOW that you're the real deal. Even your utter disrespect for me won't change that.

So I apologize for not mentioning you. There are quite a few good fighters here, and I was just mentioning a short list of guys that had been in my recent consciousness.

[jon]

HuangKaiVun
Thank you for your kind words. I would hardly consider myself in quite the same way as your discribing but i do consider myself a dedicated student.

Look ill be strait up with you.
I dont have anything against you personaly, to be brutal i seem to have some kind of issue with the tone of your posts. This however is not really an excuse for me to go throwing stones.
I honestly dont always agree with your approch but one thing i will always respect is someone who dedicates there time and energy to the arts.

I appologise for being so harsh with you in the past, I still dont always agree with your methods but its not my lot to dictate how you should go about communicating.

"Notice how I made no mention of how tough I was as a fighter? I have and will get beaten. That's YOU making up stuff about me."
* Very true and point well taken, i will not put words in your mouth again.

Either way thank you for taking the higher road here, you have at least proven something about yourself to me. I will make an effort to not be so jumpy with you in the future.
All the best
happy training
Jon

[jon]

Ego_Extrodinaire

You have addressed your post to me, i guess you want a reply?

"Every knight needs to slay their dragon to rise in the ranks of chilvery. Every on line sifu needs to slay their troll."
* You give yourself to much credit, comparing a dragon to a troll now? Slaying a dragon would be a real job, slaying a troll is simply fighting fire with fire.

"HungKaiVun's efforts are making a mokery of himself. It is him who keeps getting the backhanded treatment from one he perceives to be a troll."
* I dont agree with Hungs approch but that in NO way validates yours. Honestly ego you 'used' to have a real sence of skill about your trolling, you would actualy encouage others to think about what they were posting. This latest attempt has been very poor in comparison to your previous trolls.

"The "troll" is running circles around him as he has backed himself into a corner whereby he has little choice but to appear on the Springer show else he be called a chicken for all time."
* The only thing your running circles around is your fragile, over -inflated sence of purpose. If he is a chicken then i dread to think what that makes you. Need i also remind you that YOU are the one who made that rediculous challenge.

"He said he would challenge the Ego on his terms. Ego has stated his terms and they are just to hard for Huang to handle."
* Speaking of yourself in the third person is often a giveaway that something is a mess mentaly. I understand your need to create some kind of 'special' personality for yourself but trust me when i say your superhuman complex is not doing you any favors. Particualy with those of us who tend to look strait though charades.

"But he's right, watch what he has to post - more public humiliation for HuangKaiVun"
* This is a little my issue as well, i sometimes think Huang jumps the gun a little. I frequently do this myself so im certainly no innocent. Still, if Huang is going down then he IS taking YOU with him - kicking and screaming as that may be.

"unless he does what Ego says and apologizes to all for flaunting his pride"
* He has no need to appologise to anyone but himself - being sucked in by a troll is hardly an irreversable offence. Besides which, he has been trying all along to stand up for the arts which he believes in - no way i would want him appologising for that.

"But from his last post, he is far from doing that as it is too had for a 4' boy to take the path of a man."
* Actualy judeging by his 'last' post ive seriously misjudged Huang myself. There is one thing i respect above all others.
The abillity to stand in the face of bad weather and still keep your chin up.
He just accepted all of my bitterness and still came though with a polite and well constructed post. If all of us had the same level of patience and moral we would not be having silly 'debates' like this one.


Really gokitums- kelvin - ego
You have some skill as a troll - dont waste it all on futility. I think you know better and are capable of better.

[jon]

PS BIG appology to Excession for hijacking a perfectly good thread with some great things to say and turning it into another internet flame war.



I guess this is proof positive that when you 'try' to 'discuss' fighting. Sooner or later people end up 'fighting' for real.

[Arhat of Fury]

This is hilarius, this has got to be a new online soap opera called"ALL MY KUNG FU CHILDREN"

HAHAHAhahahahahAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[TenTigers]

Huang, why do you let yourself get drawn into this crap? Yeah, I know, so did I. heh-heh. BUT you must realize- EGO IS DA MASTA! He is the Masta Troll. S***, he probably lives around the block from you, never studied martial arts-well, that's pretty obvious, and probably not wheelchairbound at all! But he is the Masta Troll.
We are not worthy!

[Excession]

nospam

"I'm sure your cognizant that what you might be looking for ain't gunna be what 90% of the folks around these parts are looking 4...know what I mean?"

Yes, that's the point. I would like peoples thoughts on why martial arts have become so much more arty and less martial. Maybe wether they believe it's good/bad/nuetral.

Why don't we post short descriptions of our martial histories?

I started in the Other category. At about 9 I tried every sport I could, Karate was one of them. Being a kids class at a primary school the focus was discipline, responsibility ,fitness, fun and protection. I was hooked and have been doing martial arts since. All of these factors keep me coming back to train, but the importance of each to me has changed.

It has always been a mix I believe you cannot find in any other activity. I've tried long and hard to think of one, but can't .That is why I posted this thread, there are many good reasons to practice martial arts, but for martial arts to have a purpose they need the correct mix, of which self defense is such an integral part. When schools take the emphasis off self defense totally, they run a risk of losing the biggest part of what makes the martial arts unique and valuable.

Do I think, on the whole, more martial and less art is needed? Yes. I also think those that call themselves martial arts instructors have a responsibility to their students to be well versed in all the above mentioned factors, so that the student has access to what they need, when they need it. I can't say I teach math just because I know division, all the other operators are just as important.

[HuangKaiVun]

Just stick around KFO, Excession.

I see a PLETHORA of posts concerning martial technique.

[nospam]

....like I said dude, too much stock in the folks that "contribute" around here.

Most would rather blow their nose than contribute. But...guess that's part of the charm about this joint..ain't it.

All you can do is realise "this" is not reality as in the end we all hit that power button.

nospam.
:cool:

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Jon,

A possible reason why you find that my post are not as thoughful as before is because you have been diligent considering the points I'd raised in the past. I'm happy this has assisted you.

But remeber there are many people new to this forum and new to Ego Maximus / Dragon / "Troll" / loved / hated and are not quite up to speeed in their learning. Please be patient with them, you were like the ignorant majority not too long ago and would have remained that way if not for me.

Nevertheless, it pleased me to see that the % votes for combat rocketed up from virtually zero to 33% as it stands - not long after I started posting.

Tell me am I not good news for southern kung fu. Eventhough I think its mostly garbage I'm helping everyone to preserve the little value it had to start with. At least thinking about self defence is the first step of defending yourself in my book (Ego Maximus / Dragon / "Troll" / loved / hated). What about yours?

But still 33%, quite a pathethic result but improving, not that I expect much from a motley crew like you.

[jon]

Ego_Extrodinaire

"A possible reason why you find that my post are not as thoughful as before is because you have been diligent considering the points I'd raised in the past. I'm happy this has assisted you. "
* Bah:( Hate to admit it - but its true...
Still as i said before, your past trolls had definate class. Sometimes thinking outside the box is nesersary for further development. Still dont give yourself too much credit - we dont want that ego getting any larger now do we;)
Besides trust me you havent swayed my opinion on southern boxing skills, i still have the upmost respect for them - as do you.


"But remeber there are many people new to this forum and new to Ego Maximus / Dragon / "Troll" / loved / hated and are not quite up to speeed in their learning. Please be patient with them, you were like the ignorant majority not too long ago and would have remained that way if not for me."
* Am i to understand that your asking me to keep silent so that you will be better able to troll new forum members?
Errr fair enough:D

"Nevertheless, it pleased me to see that the % votes for combat rocketed up from virtually zero to 33% as it stands - not long after I started posting. "
* Stroke stroke

"Tell me am I not good news for southern kung fu. Eventhough I think its mostly garbage I'm helping everyone to preserve the little value it had to start with. At least thinking about self defence is the first step of defending yourself in my book (Ego Maximus / Dragon / "Troll" / loved / hated). What about yours?"
* That should be your sig...

"But still 33%, quite a pathethic result but improving, not that I expect much from a motley crew like you."
* Snicker.... You sound like one of my old maths teachers :p
I stink at maths:rolleyes:

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Jon,

"Still as i said before, your past trolls had definate class. Sometimes thinking outside the box is nesersary for further development. Still dont give yourself too much credit - we dont want that ego getting any larger now do we
Besides trust me you havent swayed my opinion on southern boxing skills, i still have the upmost respect for them - as do you."

What are some examples of my previous post that you had find classy. Remebering that I am speaking to a wide community and I find feedback from my audience helpful. I know the silent majority appreciate and learn from what I say. I don't respect styles that I have vanquished in my days of kungfu practice which covers all of southern kung fu.

" Am i to understand that your asking me to keep silent so that you will be better able to troll new forum members? Errr fair enough"

It is not me, but their own ego who drives them to respond they way they do. The episode with HungKaiVun, which if I remember correctly you'd found hilarious. I hope for his sake he has taken public humiliation to better his personality.

"Stroke stroke"

It's 36% now. Look what I have done for Southern Kungfu. Just a word from ego and there was light!

"Snicker.... You sound like one of my old maths teachers
I stink at maths"

Was your old maths teacher in a wheelchair?

[guohuen]

Yeah bro, you've peaked. You were doing really well and hit a plateau. Re-evaluate and drag out some new material.