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Ben Gash
05-04-2000, 06:54 PM
Are the Lohan and Taizhu aspects of Wuzhuquan longarm? Logically they should be, and I saw some of Kim Han's students the other week doing sets that were virtually identical to my own longfist system, but when I trained in Wuzhuquan, all the training was shorthand.

ngocho199
11-06-2000, 09:30 PM
Is anyone in here familiar with the style of Ngo Cho Kun? If so I would like to talk to you about the style - I love learning the history of it and would like to further my understanding and relationship with this style.

Grays Anatomy
11-06-2000, 10:29 PM
There is a school in Jersey.

NGO CHO KUN FIVE ANCESTORS FISTS
Sifu Bonifacio Lim
2111 Fox Run Dr.
Plainsboro, NJ. [609] 716-9620

Shaolin Master
11-07-2000, 02:12 AM
Wu Zhu Quan
What would you like to know specifically ?
There are two versions to the history and how it was composed ! Either 5 monks(ancestors) or 5 Systems...it depends on who as to what version.

I will most of your direct queries

Shi Chan Long

Ben Gash
11-07-2000, 02:57 PM
I have trained in this system in the past. It is a fusion of five styles (which five depends upon the lineage). All agree on Fujian white crane, Taizhu longfist, Lohanquan and monkey. ON the 5th one they vary from Damo style (internal), Shaun Yee sun frost white crane (internal) and tiger.
The training will depend on where you go as well. From what I've seen of Master Lim's stuff, he does a lot of the Taizhu stuff, whereas schools in the Chee Kim Thong lineage place a lot of emphasis on the shorthand crane aspect.
It is an interesting system, and due to it's diverse nature you should be able to find whatever you are looking for.

"Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice"
Lao Tzu

ngocho199
11-07-2000, 09:53 PM
Thank you all for your time. i already train under Sifu Bonifacio Lim - a practicing student of 4 years even though i live in nyc. I would like to hear more about the two different 'versions' mentioned above... i find that very interesting.

Shaolin Master
01-24-2001, 09:11 AM
Lohan and Taizuquan aspects are longer to use the word but not as long as say original Taizuchangquan of the north, from a purely simple visual aspect.

In Wuzuquan the flavours of all 5 were consolidated not maintained.

Southern Taizuquan is quite short as well.

Southern lohan has movements in all ranges.

pitbull
03-18-2003, 06:22 PM
can u please trace the lineage of boni lim? he might as well came from manila if im not mistaken...we may have trained from the same master....

joedoe
03-18-2003, 09:33 PM
I train under the Chee Kim Thong lineage. I will see what I can dig up about the history of the art according to what I have been taught (which is slightly different to the history taught by the Phillipines lineage I think).

Out of interest, check out these websites:

http://www.gorchor.us/

http://www.geocities.com/kungfu_galaxy/Southern/NgoChor.html

pitbull
03-18-2003, 10:56 PM
thank u! i ask this bec bonifaio lim is a filipino chinese name...he may as well migrated from here....

Shaolin Master
03-19-2003, 06:07 AM
Histories and origins differ but the art is the same :D

whether Malaysian, Singaporean, Taiwanese, Phillipino or Fujianese ...they are all brothers(and sisters).

The wuzu family is a great one and lucky for the non-mainland propagation of the art that the mainland has been able to re-consolidate and unify wuzuquan again.

Chee Kim Thong'sschools should be influenced by his training and background. As us the singaporean schools are influenced by the crane aspect and luohan predominately depending if they were from Lin's or Gao Can'slineages respectively.

History question is :
Did Chua Giok Beng develop, compose reorganise the art or was passed down from the 5 ancestor legend as susggested by the Chee KIm Thong's ? Since all lineages including Grandmaster Chee have Cai Yu Ming in the lineage tree it is dfficult to distinguish. In singapore it is known as CaiYuMing Pai (ChuaGiok Beng's) as to acknowledge his role.
it is not important but always a topic.

joedoe
03-19-2003, 02:40 PM
Agreed - Ngor Chor is a great family regardless of lineage. The main differences I have noticed is that one lineage may emphasize one of the 5 foundation arts more than the others. Most of the lineages appear to be influenced by Tai Tzu, however in the Chee Kim Thong lineage the White Crane appears to have had more influence, probably because Grandmaster Chee studied White Crane at some point in his career (among many other arts).

I am no expert on the history of the art, and any more insights anyone can provide are like gold to me. As far as I have been taught (and as far as I can recall), Ngor Chor was developed sometime around 1300-1400AD by Bai Yuk Feng (I think). It was supposed to have been developed at Henan but travelled to the South. As for the rest of the history, I am pretty unclear on it. Let me go read up on my material and get back to you :).

pitbull
03-19-2003, 05:09 PM
true very true :-) but whats really important is how the art got to ur kwan.....i say its important bec some guy maybe teaching people fake stuff read from a book or isnt even member of any ruling party...and this is sad..the situation is so bad that now,some schools in china are fakes!!!....even the monks now are commercialy driven! :-(...they give u degree and diploma,belts and what ever....if i offended anyone,sorry.this is just my thought...

PS: the dead malaysian guy(forgot the name)used to visit kong han..i was told that malaysian sifus wpuld come to kong han for a friendly visit when they happen to be on vacation here....

pitbull
03-19-2003, 05:15 PM
the wuzu fed's conference will be held in qunzhou shaolin temple again i suppose...this november,...if anyone is going pls tell me :-) i stand up among all konghan guys since only i have a beard and moustache:-) everybody else shave theirs....i wish i can go this year!!! i really want to learn the tiger fork!!! what i am trying to master now is the 2x ax since it fits my stature i was told..im short and stocky :-) 5'3.5 at 150lbs of mostly muscle then fat :-) i maybe the shortest in the group too :-)

joedoe
03-19-2003, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by pitbull
true very true :-) but whats really important is how the art got to ur kwan.....i say its important bec some guy maybe teaching people fake stuff read from a book or isnt even member of any ruling party...and this is sad..the situation is so bad that now,some schools in china are fakes!!!....even the monks now are commercialy driven! :-(...they give u degree and diploma,belts and what ever....if i offended anyone,sorry.this is just my thought...

PS: the dead malaysian guy(forgot the name)used to visit kong han..i was told that malaysian sifus wpuld come to kong han for a friendly visit when they happen to be on vacation here....

Yeah, there are fakes everywhere. Everyone wants to claim to be a master but very few are the real deal. Shame that there are so many dishonest people out there, but I guess that is the world we live in.

As far as the monks go, I spent a day training with the ones at the Quanzhou temple. They were very good at what they do, and they learned stuff very quickly. Their commercial practices may be dubious but I do not doubt their training. :)

The dead Malaysian guy - Grandmaster Chee Kim Thong - was my sifu. It is good to know that the masters of Ngor Chor visited each other regularly. It suggests a unity in the art that is sadly not more widespread in MA.

joedoe
03-19-2003, 07:07 PM
A Ngor Chor forum:

http://budogeeks.tzo.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=19&sid=fcf6bc29cab762d834aeb60826d82124

FIRE HAWK
03-19-2003, 08:32 PM
I think Chuka Saolin Phoenix Eye Fist the Art that comes from Fukien Province has forms that Ngo Cho Kun has and Chuka Shaolin might be mixed from Ngo Cho Kun and other arts. Chuka Shaolin forms Er Shizi Tien sounds like Er Shi Chaun and Chukas basic form called Kai San sounds like Kai Jhan .

joedoe
03-19-2003, 09:13 PM
Anywhere I could get information about those forms in Chuka Phoenix Eye Fist? I would be very interested to see the differences.

pitbull
03-19-2003, 11:18 PM
malaysia is just across the strait :-)

it is true that "no mind" helps make the monks' punhes more accurate.....

if u do happen to pass by manila,let me know...ill give u a tour of kong han and ling nam ;-)

Xue Pei
03-20-2003, 08:30 AM
Here's another site to check out which may help..

www.ucd.ie/~shaolin

joedoe
03-20-2003, 03:29 PM
Hi, are you one of Sifu Han's students? Where are you based?

Xue Pei
03-21-2003, 02:00 AM
Hi joedoe,

Yep..Kim Han is my Shifu.I'm based in Hertfordshire, but travel up to the class in Harrow.

Did you attend the conference in Malaysia last November??I'm not sure if there is one planned for China this year??

pitbull
03-21-2003, 06:29 AM
there will be one in november as i was told....

joedoe
03-23-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Xue Pei
Hi joedoe,

Yep..Kim Han is my Shifu.I'm based in Hertfordshire, but travel up to the class in Harrow.

Did you attend the conference in Malaysia last November??I'm not sure if there is one planned for China this year??

No, unfortunately I could not make it to last year's conference. I really wanted to because I wanted to pay respects at Master Chee's grave but work was not permitting :(. Maybe next year (I won't make this year's one either unfortunately).

How is Sifu Han?

Sifuuckun
11-25-2003, 03:54 PM
Hi guys,
I'm Sifu Belida Han Uckun (Billy) I think ben cash my old class mate is on this thread. I just got my certification from Bonifacio Lim a year ago as a black sash in the art and am helping him organize the material as a modern federated martial art. Unlike the past we are going to have ranks, open acess regadrless of race and ethnicity. A structured non preferential treatment type of organization. I'm going to pubish articles in 2004 on ngo Cho Kune in Black Belt, Inside kung and this magazine as well.
Ngo Cho Will proably take a lot of people by surprise it is the most interesting combination of internal, external, short long and difficult vs acessible material I've seen and I'm swearing to dedicate time to popularizing the art and making it grow.
Sifu Belida Han Uckun

joedoe
11-26-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Sifuuckun
Hi guys,
I'm Sifu Belida Han Uckun (Billy) I think ben cash my old class mate is on this thread. I just got my certification from Bonifacio Lim a year ago as a black sash in the art and am helping him organize the material as a modern federated martial art. Unlike the past we are going to have ranks, open acess regadrless of race and ethnicity. A structured non preferential treatment type of organization. I'm going to pubish articles in 2004 on ngo Cho Kune in Black Belt, Inside kung and this magazine as well.
Ngo Cho Will proably take a lot of people by surprise it is the most interesting combination of internal, external, short long and difficult vs acessible material I've seen and I'm swearing to dedicate time to popularizing the art and making it grow.
Sifu Belida Han Uckun

Best of luck. I'll keep an eye out for your articles :)

pitbull
11-26-2003, 09:58 PM
joedoe: there are no OZ folks in shaolin this year...u guys are quite busy this year i suppose...looking forward to meet u in the flesh ;-)

joedoe
11-27-2003, 05:47 PM
Yeah, none of us could get away for the conference this year. I think we may be planning a big group next year though. Look forward to seeing you there. ;)

SergeTk
12-05-2003, 05:39 PM
Hi Joedoe !
Good 2 see you, any idea what happen to budoogeeks forum ?

joedoe
12-07-2003, 05:10 PM
Hey Serge, good to see you on KFM. I don't know what is happening with BudoGeeks. I am wondering if it shut down because not enough people visited.

Please pass on my respects to your sifu.

guanyu
05-25-2004, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by pitbull
can u please trace the lineage of boni lim? he might as well came from manila if im not mistaken...we may have trained from the same master....

He is one of the last student of late Tan Ka Hong and he is sihing to Alex Co. You can find him in Alex Co's book. He is Beng Kiam and currently teaching in New Jersey.

wuzuquan SWE
06-03-2004, 06:56 AM
Hi, this is the first time ever that I´m writing on a forum :-)

Im going to KL in Malaysia, with my sifu next saturday, to train 5 ancesters.
I´m staying there for about 1 month and I´m going to train morning and evening everyday, seniortraning is on sundays so I hope I get to train some catching hands then :-)

My sifu is gonna cal YCH also and he´s probebly there for a while at the same time so I´ll try to train a litte with him also.

I just want to ask u guy´s if it´s something special u want me to ask when I´m there?

I´m no blackbelt i theory so don´t ask any history questions or something :-), I´ve just been training like crazy for a while :-)

Please email the questions, if any, because it´s not so often I´m on this forum.

kind regards

/R

cerebus
07-10-2004, 02:55 PM
I don't know if anyone here does Ngo Cho Kune, but I have a question.

A couple years ago I read an article by (I believe) Jose Paman. I seem to recall that he mentioned the book "Go Cho Kune" by Jose Chua and stated that the form shown in this book was incorrectly called "Sanchin" or Sam Chien. He then said what the correct name was for the form in this book. Does anyone know what it was? I don't have access to this article anymore and don't remember the name of the form.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

joedoe
07-11-2004, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by cerebus
I don't know if anyone here does Ngo Cho Kune, but I have a question.

A couple years ago I read an article by (I believe) Jose Paman. I seem to recall that he mentioned the book "Go Cho Kune" by Jose Chua and stated that the form shown in this book was incorrectly called "Sanchin" or Sam Chien. He then said what the correct name was for the form in this book. Does anyone know what it was? I don't have access to this article anymore and don't remember the name of the form.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

I practice Ngor Chor Kun. Unfortunately I don't know the article or the book you mentioned. Can you describe the form?

cerebus
07-11-2004, 06:03 PM
Hey joedoe. Thanks for responding. I don't have the book with me right now (I'm at work), but I'll bring it with me Monday or Tuesday and write out a description of the form.

I had known of this book for awhile but it's very rare and hard to find, so I was pleased to recently obtain two copies of it. For many years, since the 70s, it was the ONLY book on this art in English (so I've been told). Now there's an excellent book by Alexander (or Alexandre?) Co titled "Five Ancestor Fist" published by Tuttle.

The form in Chua's book is much more active and has many more techniques than the Sam Chien form as pictured in Co's book.

I'll get back to you with a description of the form tomorrow or the next day. Thanks again! T.

joedoe
07-11-2004, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by cerebus
Hey joedoe. Thanks for responding. I don't have the book with me right now (I'm at work), but I'll bring it with me Monday or Tuesday and write out a description of the form.

I had known of this book for awhile but it's very rare and hard to find, so I was pleased to recently obtain two copies of it. For many years, since the 70s, it was the ONLY book on this art in English (so I've been told). Now there's an excellent book by Alexander (or Alexandre?) Co titled "Five Ancestor Fist" published by Tuttle.

The form in Chua's book is much more active and has many more techniques than the Sam Chien form as pictured in Co's book.

I'll get back to you with a description of the form tomorrow or the next day. Thanks again! T.

No worries. I must warn you that I train under a different lineage to Mr Co, and I do not know anything about the other two authors you have mentioned, however I will try to help if I can. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions about NCK :)

Royal Dragon
07-11-2004, 08:14 PM
I have the same book, and the form is almost the same as one we have in South Tai Tzu called San Zhen.

cerebus
07-11-2004, 09:13 PM
Which book are you referring to RD? The one by Co or the one by Chua?

cerebus
07-13-2004, 12:47 AM
Okay, let's see if I can descibe this form properly. I guess I'll just type the descriptions under the photos.

From starting position bring hands low to the front with palms facing each other and open the legs to a horse stance (toes-in stance is pictured). Bring right foot back and pivot to right and step forward with left foot into ready position.

Bring hands to a "prayer" position and execute a right front thrust kick. From kick position step right foot back ending in a left front stance and swing left hand back low and right hand across chest.

Simultaneously step back with left foot into back stance and execute a twin open palm elbow break defense ( this photo shows him in a back stance with both arms extended in front of him, right hand palm down over his left hand palm up).

Pivot to left on left foot and simultaneously bring both fists palm up on either side of the chest. From toes-in horse stance execute twin open-palm downward block then high double crane hand block (in photo both hands held in a "swordhand"-looking form each blocking outward with palms downward as if breaking a double-hand throat grab).

Execute a forward double palm strike by making a circular motion while the strike is being performed. Bring right fist to side of chest ("chambered" position) and follow with a left open palm across the body.Push both hands straight forward with right fist over left palm (both are palms-up).

Bring both hands up and bring them to the sides of the chest ("chambered" position) then execute a forward double open palm strike.

Step forward with right foot and execute a left open palm strike and simultaneously bring the open right hand back to the side of the chest. Immediately execute a forward vertical finger thrust strike. Step forward with left foot and draw the left hand across the body to the right shoulder.

Execute a downward block with the open left hand. Immediately execute a left eagle block (looks kinda like a Karate knifehand block but the hand is ****ed outward more). Step forward with the right foot and execute a right vertical fist punch.

Execute a left vertical fist punch, execute a right vertical fist punch. Execute a right middle block by bringing the blocking arm down and out in a semi-circular direction (his right forearm is at his right side, parallel to the floor. The fist is palm up).

Turn to the left and simultaneously execute an eagle block (same type of "eagle" block as before) with the left hand. Step forward with the right foot and execute a right uppercut punch.

Jump up by springing off the right leg and raise the left arm. Drop down to the floor in Kuai Ma position (left knee on the floor) while executing a left downward open hand block. Rise from the floor while ****ing the right fist beside the right ear and stepping forward with the right foot.

Execute a right inward block, Execute a right downward block, then a right outward block.

Execute a left forward open palm strike. pivot 90 dgrees to the left while bringing left hand across the chest (now you're facing to the rear of the direction you were facing at the begining of the form).In left forward stance execute left crane block (looks like the same thing that was earlier called an "eagle" block to me). Step forward right and execute right vertical fist punch.

Execute left vertical fist punch, then another right vertical fist punch.

Anyway, there's more to it but I can't keep typing. Hope that's enough to help you identify it. The books also contains a two-person form that looks like the same techniques.

Thanks! T.

cerebus
07-13-2004, 11:38 PM
TTT

joedoe
07-14-2004, 05:51 PM
OK, definitely does not sound like Sam Chien to me. Usually Sam Chien is quite repetitive, and in my lineage and most other NCK lineages I have seen there are 3 steps forward and 3 steps back, repeating the same set of movements each time.

As for which set it is, I don't know if I can help you there. From the description of the form, it does not sound like one from my lineage. Could be Fillipino? Any chance of getting some pictures?

cerebus
07-16-2004, 06:28 PM
Hey joedoe. Sorry I can't send you any pics. No scanner, no computer (I use the one at work, which I'm not REALLY supposed to). I still have the article that named the form, but it's in storage on the East coast (I'm in California now). I'm sure I'll find out eventually. Thanks for trying! Later. T. :)

guanyu
07-17-2004, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by cerebus
I don't know if anyone here does Ngo Cho Kune, but I have a question.

A couple years ago I read an article by (I believe) Jose Paman. I seem to recall that he mentioned the book "Go Cho Kune" by Jose Chua and stated that the form shown in this book was incorrectly called "Sanchin" or Sam Chien. He then said what the correct name was for the form in this book. Does anyone know what it was? I don't have access to this article anymore and don't remember the name of the form.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

This jose chua and jose paman are filipino. Alex co had already two books. Also there are two featured forms in the book sam chien and in tit tat. If what are they trying to say incomplete are the closing forms and the oppening forms which is seperated in another page. Where is this article? If he said the correct term is "Sa chien" it was the same in the meaining of sam chien. If he said it was "sam chay chien" or "tien te lin chien" is it another form.

cerebus
07-17-2004, 11:25 AM
Sorry, I don't remember which magazine the article was in (I think it might have been Inside Kung Fu), or the title of the article.

I believe Jose Paman is from the same lineage as Alexander Co. I don't recall seeing anyone commenting about the forms in Mr. Co's book, so far as I know those are correct.

The form that was named incorrectly is the one in Jose Chua's book. I think he also learned from the "Beng Kiam" school like Mr. Co ( I don't know this for sure, but the back pages of Mr. Chua's book contain photos of students and instructors from Beng Kiam school). I don't know why Mr. Chua would incorrectly identify the form in his book as Sam Chien, it looks VERY different from the form most others know by that name. :confused:

guanyu
07-19-2004, 12:54 AM
I think Jose Chua modified the form and created a kuntao.

joedoe
07-22-2004, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by cerebus
Hey joedoe. Sorry I can't send you any pics. No scanner, no computer (I use the one at work, which I'm not REALLY supposed to). I still have the article that named the form, but it's in storage on the East coast (I'm in California now). I'm sure I'll find out eventually. Thanks for trying! Later. T. :)

Sorry I can't be of any more help. If you have any other Q's about NCK feel free to PM me. :)

Normski
05-19-2005, 04:27 PM
HI,

Is there anyone out there practicing NGOR CHOR/ WUZUQUAN/ FIVE ANCESTORS. I'm particularly interested on views of SANCHIN.
Comments from all lineages without the politics and general disrespect ...............



love NORMSKI

oasis
05-19-2005, 04:43 PM
you might want to try contacting this kfm member (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/member.php?u=13286) or check out his southern white crane (http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/videos.html) website that has plenty of san chin/jan clips that you can compare due to the relationship between the styles

Ben Gash
05-19-2005, 08:58 PM
I used to. What exactly do you want to know?

Normski
05-20-2005, 12:11 AM
HI ,
Thanks for the info , very informative!!!
At the moment I'm trying to understand the deeper levels of the form.
It forms ,the nucleus of the whole system.
As a relative "Neophtye" ,I was wondering , about more seasoned
players and their knowledge and experience e.g. Four principles,catching etc...


Normski

SergeTk
06-03-2005, 02:57 AM
I used to. What exactly do you want to know?

Why you stop?

SergeTk
06-03-2005, 03:09 AM
HI,

Is there anyone out there practicing NGOR CHOR/ WUZUQUAN/ FIVE ANCESTORS. I'm particularly interested on views of SANCHIN.
Comments from all lineages without the politics and general disrespect ...............



love NORMSKI


Hello , I guess your from GM Chee lineage , who's your teacher/master ??? :D

http://wulin.proboards31.com/index.cgi <-- this is the main wuzuquan forum over all the Internet.

Normski
06-04-2005, 03:53 AM
Hi Serge TK,

In reply to your last question,all I can say ,is that it is from
GM Chee lineage,unfortunately I ,which might sound strange ,is that
I do not have his permission to name him over the internet,
I train with one of his senior students.
The reason I started this thread was ,because I'm relative novice , I could
benefit from more experienced teachers/ student ,and their approach to
training.
The reason also I might appear cautious, is that I seen similiar threads
turn into 'World War 3' lineage battles.....(and you do know what I'm
talking about.............!!!!!!!!!)
how do you approach form and weapon training? how do you have
free sparring?


regards NORMSKI

SergeTk
06-04-2005, 08:31 PM
Hey normski your in sweden right?

Also I don't know what You mean about lineage WW3.! :confused:

Normski
06-05-2005, 05:08 AM
hi Serge TK,
I'm not from Sweden :) I'm from London,England(which should
narrow it down a bit ;)
Are you from G M Chee lineage?

love Normski.................................

Normski
06-05-2005, 05:33 AM
Hi Serge TK ,
Does your school practice the new form ,developed by a committee of
modern-day masters called" UNITY"?.....................................

REGARDS NORMSKI.........................................

Ben Gash
06-05-2005, 07:58 AM
I stopped because I couldn't fit it in with work. Normski, KH?

joedoe
06-05-2005, 04:36 PM
Normski, I also practice under the same lineage. In fact, I remember you from your school's old forum. :)

SergeTk
06-05-2005, 06:27 PM
Normski, I also practice under the same lineage. In fact, I remember you from your school's old forum. :)

HI Joedoe :D , hows things ? Having enough sleep ? :D
My family is moving to Oz next year .I might also go , if thats the case I will move to Sydney :) .

On other note is your email still the same as before ?

joedoe
06-06-2005, 04:45 PM
HI Joedoe :D , hows things ? Having enough sleep ? :D
My family is moving to Oz next year .I might also go , if thats the case I will move to Sydney :) .

On other note is your email still the same as before ?

Hi Serge, things are going well. I am trying to get as much sleep as I can before October - after that I think there will be very little sleep :).

Come on over. It is always good to have another training partner. Let me know if you are definitely coming over. You should come and have a look at Sydney and see if you like it first :).

My email addresses are still there, but I will PM you a new one that I check more often than the others.

SergeTk
06-06-2005, 07:25 PM
Hi Serge TK ,
Does your school practice the new form ,developed by a committee of
modern-day masters called" UNITY"?.....................................

REGARDS NORMSKI.........................................


No we don't do it .

Normski
06-10-2005, 03:29 AM
Hi JoeDoe,

Yes I do remember you. How is the training going?..............!

regards Normski.......................

joedoe
06-13-2005, 04:20 PM
Hi JoeDoe,

Yes I do remember you. How is the training going?..............!

regards Normski.......................

The training is going well mate. How is yours going?

SergeTk
06-14-2005, 02:45 AM
www.chenwukuan.com

Normski have you heard about this art , apparently who ever started this style first learned wuzuquan from Master Kim Hun and then mix it with other styles and named it chen wu kuan.

Normski
06-14-2005, 03:30 AM
HI SERGE TK,

To be honest ,no I haven't..from what I gather Master Kim Han was the British Wushu Coach from the mid eighties to late nineties
, I think ,he was one of founder members of The British Kung Fu Council
which I think ,though I could be wrong,was the fore-runner for B.C.C.M.A.
(British Council for Chinese Martial Arts),that as far as my knowledge goes
on the subject.................!!!!!!!!!
maybe someone else might be more enlightening...............

regards Normski

AxelB
06-21-2005, 02:17 AM
Hello everybody,

I'm from Chen Wu Kuan, and it is a mixture of northern and southern shaolin styles. Southern being Wuzuquan.

Nice to hear of other students around studying WuZuQuan :)

Where are you lot based, and how long have you been training for?

regards,
Alex

joedoe
06-21-2005, 04:19 PM
Sydney, Australia

Been training 18 years.

Xue Pei
11-11-2005, 12:44 PM
HI SERGE TK,

To be honest ,no I haven't..from what I gather Master Kim Han was the British Wushu Coach from the mid eighties to late nineties
, I think ,he was one of founder members of The British Kung Fu Council
which I think ,though I could be wrong,was the fore-runner for B.C.C.M.A.
(British Council for Chinese Martial Arts),that as far as my knowledge goes
on the subject.................!!!!!!!!!
maybe someone else might be more enlightening...............

regards Normski


Guys,
Late response to this (just logged back on after a long time away)
Just to clarify Master Han was the British Wushu Coach from 1985 - 1993.
Other fact is correct.

Ben Hor
11-13-2005, 11:51 PM
hi Serge TK,
I'm not from Sweden :) I'm from London,England(which should
narrow it down a bit ;)
Are you from G M Chee lineage?

love Normski.................................
>
Hi Normski,
>
Try to track down Sifu Kim Han, he was teaching Five Ancestors back in the seventies. He is, or was London based.

Xue Pei
11-14-2005, 12:27 PM
>
Hi Normski,
>
Try to track down Sifu Kim Han, he was teaching Five Ancestors back in the seventies. He is, or was London based.


Master Han is still teaching Wuzuquan in London (Harrow Wealdstone)

Ben Hor
11-14-2005, 04:21 PM
Master Han is still teaching Wuzuquan in London (Harrow Wealdstone)
>
Good to hear he is still around. Kim and I worked together on the old British Kung Fu Council.

PlumDragon
11-14-2005, 05:40 PM
Ive practiced some ngo cho and have a fair understanding of the sanzhan/sanjin set in the system. I enjoy the footwork and spitting energy in the form but find that the crane portions of the form seem to be somewhat adverse to my more core martial arts work...

Did you have any specific questions about the set? Seems like we have a decent amount of ngo cho membership responding to the post...

joedoe
11-14-2005, 08:50 PM
Ive practiced some ngo cho and have a fair understanding of the sanzhan/sanjin set in the system. I enjoy the footwork and spitting energy in the form but find that the crane portions of the form seem to be somewhat adverse to my more core martial arts work...

Did you have any specific questions about the set? Seems like we have a decent amount of ngo cho membership responding to the post...

I am curious as to how the crane techniques are adverse to the rest of your training. Care to expand on that?

PlumDragon
11-14-2005, 10:40 PM
I am curious as to how the crane techniques are adverse to the rest of your training. Care to expand on that?
Im sure the issue will become more natural over time if I continued to work on it over the years, but my main issue is with the wrist down versus being turned up in other styles Ive worked on (such as tan sau in wing chun). It seems a minimal difference but its caused me some headache. I suppose in then end, maybe "adverse" is too strong a word, but with sooo many different methods (like tan sau, or a similar method in Northern Shaolin), and so many varying philosophies in execution (like gwak shu in Southern Mantis), I find that trying to incorporate too many ways of doing a similar type of thing is a good way to spend too much time learning too many things and not enough time learning a small number of things.

Does that make any sense? I do like the crane blocks but I tend to not use them in favor of other philosophies that in the end have a similar goal in mind...

KwaiChangCaine
11-15-2005, 08:52 AM
Plum Dragon

Do you study with John Graham?

PlumDragon
11-15-2005, 10:53 AM
No, Im not familiar with John Graham. Does he live in Northern AL?

KwaiChangCaine
11-15-2005, 02:28 PM
He is in AL but I am not sure where exactly. I will find out.

My Sifu did some seminars at his school a while ago. Sifu is one of the current Ten Tigers from Beng Kiam in Manila.

joedoe
11-15-2005, 08:10 PM
Im sure the issue will become more natural over time if I continued to work on it over the years, but my main issue is with the wrist down versus being turned up in other styles Ive worked on (such as tan sau in wing chun). It seems a minimal difference but its caused me some headache. I suppose in then end, maybe "adverse" is too strong a word, but with sooo many different methods (like tan sau, or a similar method in Northern Shaolin), and so many varying philosophies in execution (like gwak shu in Southern Mantis), I find that trying to incorporate too many ways of doing a similar type of thing is a good way to spend too much time learning too many things and not enough time learning a small number of things.

Does that make any sense? I do like the crane blocks but I tend to not use them in favor of other philosophies that in the end have a similar goal in mind...

That is fair enough. I was just curious, not offended or anything :)

I don't know if this will help you at all, but the crane block can be transitioned into by first executing the block with the wrist turned up, then rotate the wrist into the crane hand. This can be useful for getting used to the motion, as well as some chin na applications

joedoe
11-15-2005, 08:10 PM
He is in AL but I am not sure where exactly. I will find out.

My Sifu did some seminars at his school a while ago. Sifu is one of the current Ten Tigers from Beng Kiam in Manila.

Sifu John Graham is located in Mobile, Alabama.

PlumDragon
11-16-2005, 10:35 AM
Ah, ok. Thats about 5 hours South of me.




I don't know if this will help you at all, but the crane block can be transitioned into by first executing the block with the wrist turned up, then rotate the wrist into the crane hand. This can be useful for getting used to the motion, as well as some chin na applications
Yes, thats the way I was practicing it, more out of prior habit than on purpose. At some point in the future I will work to integrate it more, but for now that is one motion that is on the back burner =)

chris_b
12-11-2005, 08:00 AM
In reply to your last question,all I can say ,is that it is from
GM Chee lineage,unfortunately I ,which might sound strange ,is that
I do not have his permission to name him over the internet,
I train with one of his senior students. NORMSKI

You're teacher's not Yap Leong is it?

wuzuquan
04-21-2006, 04:59 AM
Hi

I am new to this forum and was wondering if there are any Five Ancestors Fists followers out there?

Regards

PlumDragon
04-21-2006, 09:33 AM
Ive dabbled in 5 Ancestor Fist; a good system.

wuzuquan
04-22-2006, 01:14 AM
excellent, where did you train?...what else have you studied?

joedoe
04-22-2006, 02:08 AM
Me. Is that you Peter?

wuzuquan
04-22-2006, 02:29 AM
no, its alan from england.

joedoe
04-23-2006, 05:28 PM
Hello Alan. I have trained in Wuzuquan for quite a while now. Are you a student of Sifu Han's?

wuzuquan
04-24-2006, 09:35 AM
yeah, we spoke last year on my forum at Kixx?!...

I live in the north west near Blackpool.

Been with Kim Han since 1985

PlumDragon
04-24-2006, 02:08 PM
excellent, where did you train?...what else have you studied?
I trained here in Northern AL, only long enough to learn (NOT get good at) the material from sanzhan and 20 punches, at a time when there was really no other option for instruction. I abandoned most of the wuzuquan principles when my jook lum teacher became available as they were somewhat counterproductive to some of the principles in jook lum (for example, the pivoting of the foot used in power generation). However, I have since found that alot of the wuzuquan formwork and principles can be "adapted" to fit into the SPM paradigms and find that things like the form catchings from wuzuquan are a good tool to continue pracitcing.

Have studied lots of other systems/styles; currently (and hopefully forever and always), Jook Lum Praying Mantis and Inosanto/Lacosta Kali/Escrima.

wuzuquan
04-25-2006, 03:27 AM
Who did u study with?

PlumDragon
04-25-2006, 07:33 AM
Nobody you would know; I trained with a group of guys whose sifu had relocated--think the sifu's name was Eric and was of the Chee Kim Thong lineage...

wuzuquan
04-25-2006, 09:12 AM
is he affiliaed to john graham?

PlumDragon
04-25-2006, 01:15 PM
No he is not.

joedoe
04-25-2006, 04:50 PM
Eric Alexander?

PlumDragon
04-25-2006, 09:23 PM
I have no idea...Like I said, I didnt train with him, onmly with his students.

You guys have 14 questions left ;)

joedoe
04-25-2006, 10:14 PM
What size bra do you wear :D

Just kidding. I have met Sifu Graham a couple of times and one time he had a student named Eric Alexander. Very nice guy.

PlumDragon
04-26-2006, 09:08 AM
I dont wear a bra, I wear a "Bro". 13 questions! ;)

Ill see if I cant figure out what this guys last name was...

KwaiChangCaine
06-21-2007, 11:27 AM
Some new videos of Sifu Bonifacio Lim of Beng Kiam in Manila doing Five Ancestors Fist sets - Intwining Kick and Chopping Attack on YouTube.

See his website also at www.ngochokun.com

Steeeve
12-07-2007, 02:31 PM
Does we have any Ngo cho kun players here?

I read ans see some about this style ....very interesting

Does Ngo Cho Kun have different branch ....

Steeve

Laukarbo
12-07-2007, 05:39 PM
Hi,

heres a lot of info... www.konghankungfu.com
I recently stared to learn some ngo cho kun...very interesting style with a different
power than the style I learned... here in Manila chinatown are 2 different branches
Beng Kiam and Kong Han but there are more..:D

Steeeve
12-08-2007, 07:33 AM
Laukarbo

Whats the difference between the beng kiam and kong Han? They came from the same source (root)

Thank

Steeve

Laukarbo
12-08-2007, 05:43 PM
both of the Grandmasters learned from the same teacher back in Fukien..

Steeeve
12-08-2007, 07:42 PM
Laukarbo

Ok but the two lineage seem to have two different way .....but thats the same ...I mean the forms and the principles and concept of the style

Does this chinese MA from Filipino could have some influenced of the Kali (filipino Ma0 or Silat (indonesian) or Bersilat ( Malaysian)...? I know its all different system but chinese MA of southern East (Filipino ,indonesia,malaysia are influenced by they own MA ......Thats why Hung Chia ,chuka and so on are different of the pure chinese MA....:)

BTW I trained and train the kuntao silat de thouars(uncle Bill) ,pekiti tirsia kali ....
All the chinese Ma from Phillipine are very interesting also from indonesian ...I think the old chinese MA came there and are the more near of the source they dont lost the goal .....plus the filipino ,indonesia ,malaysia are more practical ...I mean they keep the fighting way......

Hope you understood What I mean ....My english is so so

Steeve

Laukarbo
12-08-2007, 08:10 PM
Hi Steeve,

I know what u mean... both Ngo Cho Kun gyms have the same roots but they went different ways ...thats why there are differences now..for example me and my sihing learned hung kuen from the same Sifu but we teach differently.A few generations later the difference already is really big...
I know that the kong kan gym keeps their ngo cho very close to the way it was taught in Fukien so there are not many fma influences..Alex Co Sifu learned also 7 star mantis,some hung gar and I think also some fma so at Beng Kiam there might be some influences but I never trained there so I only can guess..Sifu Alex Co is a walking martial arts dictionary ..he has a very big knowledge...

Steeeve
12-08-2007, 08:36 PM
laukardo

The Sam Chien will be the same .....if not we have a problem:)

take care men I like you;)

Laukarbo
12-08-2007, 08:50 PM
:D thanks

Yes sam chien is the same...but in their own interpretation..:D

peace:)

Steeeve
12-08-2007, 08:53 PM
Whats you mean by interpretation? not same move ....sam chien is not a fighting or applications form?

Steeve

Laukarbo
12-08-2007, 08:55 PM
same moves but with slight differences in position of hands etc.

Steeeve
12-08-2007, 08:59 PM
But its the same :)

You said you train Hung Kuen ....Do you cames from the Lao Kim lineage and the Lapunti Abaniko Arnis of GM Jonny Chiu ::) Ur from the fhillipine ?

S5eeve

Steeeve
12-08-2007, 09:17 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tItmXHc-qwI

Here Lao Kim.....thats mean grand auntie........


Streeeve

Laukarbo
12-08-2007, 10:09 PM
But its the same :)

You said you train Hung Kuen ....Do you cames from the Lao Kim lineage and the Lapunti Abaniko Arnis of GM Jonny Chiu ::) Ur from the fhillipine ?

S5eeve
I live in the PI, Im from Lau Family in HK
Im the poster of that Lao kim video by the way hehe:D;)

Steeeve
12-08-2007, 10:39 PM
Men

Do you have more ......I really like it:):):):):):)

Steeve

wu-ji
12-09-2007, 12:31 PM
The proper name for Ngo Cho Kun is Ngo Co Ho Yang Kun or Wu Zu He Yang Quan. This refers to Shizu Cai Yuming's (Chua Giok Beng) teaching of Wuzuquan. There are other non-Chua's NCK, and they mainly come from Malaysia.

Within the Chua's lineage, it can be generalized into 2 different "flavors": Quanzhou and Xiamen.

Quanzhou's lineages come from Chua's early students. They have relatively larger movements. Both Kong Han (from Lo Yan Cu) and Beng Kiam (from Tan Kiong Beng) are Quanzhou. These 2 masters, and correspondingly their sons Lo King Hui and Tan Ka Hong) interchanged the knowledge a lot. So, there are many similarities. There are also differences, of course. Generally, Beng Kiam is considered a "proper text book" NCK. They emphasize the precision of the execution and rhythm. Kong Han has somewhat an emphasis on a quick and hard execution. However, I am not from either of these lineages. So, this is a generalization from an outsider view.

There is also a third lineage in the Philipines, from Kun Tao Ok's lineage. They are lesser known, but are known for the fierceness of the way they fight. Kun Tao Ok is from Liem Kiu Ji's lineage.

Xu Qinghui from mainland China is also a good Quanzhou master. He is from a different lineage (not Kong Han), but received intensive instructions from the late master Lo King Hui.

Lo Ban Teng lineage(s) from Indonesia are also a Quanzhou style. They emphasize on extreme power generation and limbs' conditioning.

The current active Xiamen styles are mostly from Sim Yang Tek (Shen Yangde)'s lineage. He was the last (indoor) student of Chua. This lineage has a more compact frame and emphasizes on vibration energy. The known successors of this lineage (but not limited to) are Wushuguan group in Xin An village near Xiamen, Beng Seng in Singapore, Giok Beng in Singapore, a master in Taiwan, and a lineage that descends from Liem Tjoei Kang in Solo (Surakarta), Indonesia. There could also be a lineage in Myanmar since Sim lived there for a while before finally migrated to Singapore. However, it is hard to track them due to the lack of communication and political situation.

Liem Tjoei Kang's lineage is unique since it has both Quanzhou and Xiamen flavors. Liem was a nephew of Lo Ban Teng and also an adopted son of Sim Yang Tek.

It is not easy to find instructions in North America. These are some of the list that I would recommend (but are not limited to):

- Kong Han group has Daniel Kun in Vancouver, BC; Jeffrey Yang in Canton, OH; and Milo Ong in LA, CA.
- Beng Kiam has Christopher Rickett in San Diego. However, he doesn't advertise in NCK teaching. He is also a very reputable master of Filipino arts.
- There is someone from Liem Tjoei Kang's lineage in Southern California area. However, this person prefers to go dormant for now and does not wish to teach.

There are, of course, other teachers from different lineages. However, I don't know about them enough to recommend their instructions.


About Sam Chien, it will not be the same. "One thousand people have one thousand different Sam Chien." It is not the shape, but the essence that matters.

I hope this helps. Best wishes.

The Xia
12-09-2007, 03:43 PM
What forms encompass the style?

wu-ji
12-09-2007, 05:00 PM
There is a lot of forms, maybe hundreds of them, since the style is an agglomeration of Southern Tai Cho, White Crane, Monkey, Southern Luo Han, and Tat Mo Ki Kang. Each of the ancestor's forms can be practiced and carried over. There are also forms created by Sujo Chua or his descendants.

The majority of Sujo Chua's students had already been masters in a Fujian style before asked to be a disciple of Sujo Chua. So, each of them could have also been teaching their respective forms.

It was more likely that Sujo Chua taught more of the principles, such as embodied in the Sam Chien, the power generation (ngo ki liat), and methods, much more than the forms.

There are documented 7 chien forms alone. Each of lineage carries different forms.
However, there are common core forms taught such as: Sam Chien )3 battles), Ji Sip Kun (20x punch). Si Mun Pha Kak (4 gates 8 diagrams), and Song Sui (hard to translate, something like Double "Neutralizer").

Yet, so far, I have never seen any identical executions of these forms from each lineage. Kong Han and Beng Kiam closely resemble each other, even in the forms' list, due to the aforementioned interactions.

When this style's practitioners meet, usually they show each other's Sam Chien. Although looking rather simple, Sam Chien is the "thesis" of the practitioner's and the lineage's kung fu. There are sayings such that: "Learning Sam Chien in the beginning, until death learning Sam Chien," "Sam Chien is deeper than it looks," "From the core of Sam Chien will grow 108 branches," or "There should never be 3rd pair of ears while giving instructions for Sam Chien."

Sam Chien, as executed by Alexander Cho, is very "textbook" and "fundamentally correct."

Steeeve
12-10-2007, 01:38 PM
Wu ji

Thank for all this information:)

Does some players put more emphazize in one 5 core style ...I mean some more white crane ,some more tai cho and so on

Steeve

The Xia
12-10-2007, 01:56 PM
There is a lot of forms, maybe hundreds of them, since the style is an agglomeration of Southern Tai Cho, White Crane, Monkey, Southern Luo Han, and Tat Mo Ki Kang. Each of the ancestor's forms can be practiced and carried over. There are also forms created by Sujo Chua or his descendants.

The majority of Sujo Chua's students had already been masters in a Fujian style before asked to be a disciple of Sujo Chua. So, each of them could have also been teaching their respective forms.

It was more likely that Sujo Chua taught more of the principles, such as embodied in the Sam Chien, the power generation (ngo ki liat), and methods, much more than the forms.

There are documented 7 chien forms alone. Each of lineage carries different forms.
However, there are common core forms taught such as: Sam Chien )3 battles), Ji Sip Kun (20x punch). Si Mun Pha Kak (4 gates 8 diagrams), and Song Sui (hard to translate, something like Double "Neutralizer").

Yet, so far, I have never seen any identical executions of these forms from each lineage. Kong Han and Beng Kiam closely resemble each other, even in the forms' list, due to the aforementioned interactions.

When this style's practitioners meet, usually they show each other's Sam Chien. Although looking rather simple, Sam Chien is the "thesis" of the practitioner's and the lineage's kung fu. There are sayings such that: "Learning Sam Chien in the beginning, until death learning Sam Chien," "Sam Chien is deeper than it looks," "From the core of Sam Chien will grow 108 branches," or "There should never be 3rd pair of ears while giving instructions for Sam Chien."

Sam Chien, as executed by Alexander Cho, is very "textbook" and "fundamentally correct."
Thanks for the information. Do you know much about Ngo Cho Kun outside of SE Asia?

wu-ji
12-10-2007, 03:26 PM
Wu ji

Thank for all this information:)

Does some players put more emphazize in one 5 core style ...I mean some more white crane ,some more tai cho and so on

Steeve

You are more than welcome. I am just sharing information.

With a risk of overgeneralizing it:

Quanzhou lineages use Tai Cho core since a lot of them are descendat, or somewhat influenced, by Liem Kiu Ji (Some calls him Lim Kiu Lu), who was a Tai Cho master prior meeting Chua Giok Beng.

Xiamen is heavily influenced by White Crane since Sim Yang Tek was a White Crane master prior meeting Chua.

In my very personal opinion, Ngo Cho Ho Yang Kun is more of a thesis than a style, very much like Bruce Lee's fighting methods. Respectively, it allows the practitioners to adapt the principles to be suitable for his/her frame. Even the stances vary widely within lineages in the style and within persons in the lineages.

wu-ji
12-10-2007, 03:33 PM
Thanks for the information. Do you know much about Ngo Cho Kun outside of SE Asia?

You are very welcome, again I am just sharing information.

Ngo Cho Kun is very much centered in SE Asia and Fujian. Any representations outside those areas are usually just extensions from those 2 regions.

It is also a small circle. Although we might not know each representation personally, it is easy to check who is who. If you are at a particular location or would like to know about a particular person, I might know or can ask about the person.

wu-ji
12-10-2007, 03:41 PM
Steeeve:

I see that you are training with Uncle Bill. He is a great master. I saw some of his and his disciples' clips. Ngo Cho Kun (at least the one that I know) and Uncle Bill's martial arts share identical major principles. Of course, there minor differences and also power generation methods might vary.

One example will be in the sa khak ho (triangular steps). I see that Uncle Bill is big in it from the way he moves. Xiamen lineages also emphasize this.

Quanzhou lineages, especially Lo Ban Teng and Kong Han, prefer tank-like direct approach (although it doesn't eliminate the side stepping).

The Xia
12-10-2007, 03:47 PM
You are very welcome, again I am just sharing information.

Ngo Cho Kun is very much centered in SE Asia and Fujian. Any representations outside those areas are usually just extensions from those 2 regions.

It is also a small circle. Although we might not know each representation personally, it is easy to check who is who. If you are at a particular location or would like to know about a particular person, I might know or can ask about the person.
Do you know about Ngo Cho Kun in North America? I know there is Sifu Bonifacio Lim in NJ. I've heard he's excellent. But other then him, I can't think of anyone else I know of. I can see how it's very much centered in SE Asia and Fujian.

Laukarbo
12-10-2007, 04:35 PM
Do you know about Ngo Cho Kun in North America? I know there is Sifu Bonifacio Lim in NJ. I've heard he's excellent. But other then him, I can't think of anyone else I know of. I can see how it's very much centered in SE Asia and Fujian.

http://www.konghanusa.com/

Steeeve
12-10-2007, 05:06 PM
Wu Jia

Im not a student of Uncle Bill ....but I was a student of one of his senior here in Canada.....I trained with Uncle when he came to Canada for visits every years....in fact I was his driver here :)

In kuntao silat and also serak silat or tjimande the entry is the footwork ....the triangle principles ...whats we call langkas tiga...other style used this pattern also like the filipino MA(pekiti tirsia I talk the style I know)

In fact Uncle Bill used mostly the pakua chang ....different of the chinese pakua but some similaritie....I think the Kuntao style of SE Asia keep the fighting or warrior way....

The triangle step is sometime very subtle ...look like a direct entry in straight line

I agree the jurus of silat look a lot like the Ngo cho kun ....

Nice to talk with you

Steeve

The Xia
12-10-2007, 09:53 PM
http://www.konghanusa.com/
Thanks Laukarbo. A question for you. Being from a Hung Gar background, how do you like crosstraining in Ngo Cho Kune?

wu-ji
12-10-2007, 10:25 PM
Do you know about Ngo Cho Kun in North America? I know there is Sifu Bonifacio Lim in NJ. I've heard he's excellent. But other then him, I can't think of anyone else I know of. I can see how it's very much centered in SE Asia and Fujian.

I posted this list in a previous posting above:


It is not easy to find instructions in North America. These are some of the list that I would recommend (but are not limited to):

- Kong Han group has Daniel Kun in Vancouver, BC; Jeffrey Yang in Canton, OH; and Milo Ong in LA, CA.
- Beng Kiam has Christopher Rickett in San Diego. However, he doesn't advertise in NCK teaching. He is also a very reputable master of Filipino arts.
- There is someone from Liem Tjoei Kang's lineage in Southern California area. However, this person prefers to go dormant for now and does not wish to teach.

Recommendations are based on personal acquaintance or recommendations of acquaintances.

There are, of course, other teachers from different lineages. However, I don't know about them enough to recommend their instructions. These include (there could be more):

- Bonifacio Lim (Beng Kiam)- NJ area
- Ben Asuncion (Beng Kiam) - LA, CA area
- Mark Wiley (Bengkiam) - CO area if I am not mistaken.
- Jose Parman (I forgot) - San Jose, CA area
- John Graham (Chee Kim Tong) - Mobile, AL (more of his students in AL area)
- Kenneth Lim in VA area. He advertises more as a Wing Chun and Hokkian Eng Chun styles, but one of his teachers is from Gui In Lam lineage.
- Kam Lee (A Malaysian lineage that I forgot) in FL
- Lo Ban Teng group as represented by Lo Siauw Gok's lineage is ready to start teaching in USA. Lo Hak Lun, Lo Siauw Gok's son states that hopefully it will happen in less than a year.

It is unethical for me to comment on Bonifacio Lim's skills since I am from a different lineage and I do not know him personally. However, I can say that Alex Cho represents the "standard" of Beng Kiam. So, any good masters from Beng Kiam should move similarly to him. His videos are publicly available for purchase (I am not commercially related to him and don't benefit from the purchase). You can just google "alex cho ngo cho kun" to find them.

Daniel Kun, Bonifacio Lim, Ben Asuncion, and John Graham just met in Alabama in September. Kam Lee and the dormant person were also invited, but could not make it.

Laukarbo
12-10-2007, 10:25 PM
Thanks Laukarbo. A question for you. Being from a Hung Gar background, how do you like crosstraining in Ngo Cho Kune?

no problem,
I have to say I still learn,practise and teach Hung Kuen...
but since I live in Manila/Chinatown I have a big access to Ngo Cho Kun..
I was really curious about the style..to ur question I just recently started and learned Sam chien and my limited knowledge about ngo cho kun only tells me so far that the style really compliments hung fist. Its a good addition for short distance fighting,and learning short power generation...
Btw,I think sam chien is not really compareble to Tit sin kuen..feels very different but like I said I just learned sam chien and its all new to me..all in all I think that both styles dont bite each other

wu-ji
12-10-2007, 10:48 PM
Btw,I think sam chien is not really compareble to Tit sin kuen..feels very different but like I said I just learned sam chien and its all new to me..all in all I think that both styles dont bite each other

Tian Te Lin Chien will feel more similar to Tit Sin Kuen. They actually share the same elements and purpose. The Philippines lineages don't emphasize that much pressure and tension as compared to Wong Fei Hung's Hung Gar lineages. Some lineages, like the Lo Ban Teng lineages from Indonesia have strong emphasis on the tension.

Laukarbo
12-11-2007, 12:32 AM
Tian Te Lin Chien will feel more similar to Tit Sin Kuen. They actually share the same elements and purpose. The Philippines lineages don't emphasize that much pressure and tension as compared to Wong Fei Hung's Hung Gar lineages. Some lineages, like the Lo Ban Teng lineages from Indonesia have strong emphasis on the tension.


thanks for the info...
very interesting.

Steeeve
12-11-2007, 12:38 PM
Wu ji are you a ngo cho player.....Men you have a lot of informations:)

From what I heard and read a lot of chinese MA from the SE Asia is call Kuntao
A generic term (hokkien)Does the Ngo Cho kuen have some influenced coming from Filipino kali , indonesian silat or malaysian bersilat ?

and also maybe the NGo Cho have influenced some of this style?


Laukarbo ...the Hung kuen from GM Lao Kim have influenced a lot the Lapunti Arnis De abaniko of Carbunay...Do you train from this lineage (Lao Kim)?

Steeve

wu-ji
12-11-2007, 01:04 PM
I have received a full permission from my teacher to open my own school years ago after more than 13 years of training. However, I do not have time to teach now due to my activities. With work and family, I can only spare time for personal training.

We (NCKers) also have rather an international network. So, we can share and pass information easily.

Kun Tao is the fujian (min an) dialect for Quan Dao, the way of the fist. There is an intertwining relationship between Fujian arts and SE "native" arts. Some Fujian masters taught local people, some have to use it for a self-defense, some make a good relationship with the locals and change knowledge, ..., and some people just steal, imitate, then claim an "indigenous" invention. Some steal from watching, some steal because of fighting interaction (when you fight someone, you can also learn his movements). Not pointing fingers to anyone or start a flame, but this is the fact. Some Silat lineages are very respectable and very independent of Fujian influence, some have a strong influence and admit it, some have the influence and don't admit it.

The point is not about stealing. MA adapts. "Necessity is the mother of invention." Because it is needed (for self-defense), Fujian arts in SE Asia grows. Silat follows the same story and also grows.

wu-ji
12-11-2007, 01:09 PM
By the way, just to share a little bit about Fujianese martial culture.

No self-respectable Fujianese master ever calls himself sifu or master in the first person. It is just a part of the humbleness culture. They usually rather be called "ah cek" (or uncle), just like Uncle Bill. The term "suhu" (sifu) or "sinshe" (learned man, or master) is usually used by a 2nd person who respects the master. Another example is Daniel Kun, a Kong Han master residing in Vancouver, BC. He prefers to be called coach Daniel by his students. The general idea is it is not culturally accepted to self-promote: let praise (if any) comes from another persons. Another consequence of this culture is usually an excellent master does not advertise. They never boast about their own skills and they let other people see it as is. So, students need to be convinced by the master's reputation, and not by self-promotion. Students are expected to trust and pursue the knowledge. Teaching environment is usually much more informal with a lot of personal interactions. This is especially true for the indoor students whose interactions with their teachers are more like family.


So, I am very sure there are NCK masters in North America that just hide there.

My new favorite saying: "Work kills kung fu.

Steeeve
12-11-2007, 01:50 PM
Interesting what you write

What I think is mostly all Chinese M.a(kuntao) practice in SE asia are the old style(village style) ....I mean came from immigrate master before the classification of the style with names for each styles like today....This old style was simple with probably less of 10 forms maybe less ....and 3 or 4 weapons

All native system ...like silat have been influenced by some Kuntao ...

the Fukien are mostly the White crane players...(southern)...Does the wing chun ,southern mantis and Fujian white crane have the same roots? like the pak mei and dragon (lung ying )have the same root? What Do you thing

Sorry my english is not very good ...sometime im probably hard to follow:)

wu-ji
12-11-2007, 03:30 PM
No worries about English. I am also a non-native speaker.

The number of forms is never a good measure. Forms can be short or can be long. The contents are what's more important. Students of the arts need to digest it to experience (not just to understand) the fighting theories and methods of the arts.

No NCK lineages share identical movements on the forms. Forms can be created as necessary to assist students to understand the arts. Other than the aforementioned fighting methods and theories, forms also contain logical sequences that are the "wisdom of experiences" from those who created the forms. Hence, forms without the duida (counterform) has a lesser value. Practiced solo, forms are also an aid for power generation, precision, and speed training. However, forms training, even with the duida, is not sufficient. Without various degrees of sparring practices, proper timing and distance calculation cannot be developed.

Respectively, masters of the arts can have different philosophy in teaching. Some prefer short, but plenty, forms. Some prefer more condensed, but fewer, forms. Some goes from simple to more complex forms.

My personal beliefs is that high-level martial arts look similar in fighting. The training methods can be different, but human body only has one body, one head, 2 arms, and 2 legs. Just how many possible combinations can exist and be used efficiently?

Southern Chinese arts should share similar principles just like Northern Chinese arts do. The principals are very similar, if not identical, but the interpretations could be different and causing variations in training methods.

Steeeve
12-11-2007, 03:49 PM
Wu ji

The duida ....you mean the two men set ? for sure sparring is a necessity....and train the attribute (physical)

Since we talk about SE asia system

Muay thai(Kabri Kabrong....weapons thai system) and Bando (burmenese Boxing) or leithwe are really realistic system with a old tradition...and very good training method....

Steeve

wu-ji
12-11-2007, 05:39 PM
Yes, duida is the 2-person set.

From what I researched, old Muay Thai (non-ring) shares many common attributes with the monkey side of NCK. Very nice. NCK also emphasizes limb conditioning to the various degrees. NCK also has weapon trainings (along with the duida sets). But old style weapons become more and more irrelevant for urban life (who's gonna go to the mall and carries a guan dao?). So, it becomes of less interests among the younger generations.

"Leitai" is also the old name for a match bout in Chinese dialect.

About "realistic systems." People always say that they want a realistic system, but are they willing to pay for the price? The more realistic it is, the greater is the risk of injuries. Other than pain, it is also downtime for training (for recovery). A good system has a balance between these. In the western world, the matter gets more complicated with the legal issues.

In the western world, the usage of excessive force in self-defense carries consequences in both jail time and financial terms. Unless, of course, the situation is life threatening. In addition, the procurement of firearms is very easy as well. Martial arts becomes irrelevant for self-defense and suits more the needs of people who want to get exercises or participate in a form of MA competition.

On the other hand, in SE Asia, where corruptions prevail with the legal systems/enforcement are dubious at best and the procurement of firearms is not easy, MA as a form of self-defense prevails. It is just a matter of necessity. We always joked that supposed we get involved in a sketchy situation yet we still have doubt about the situation, just hit first. Things can be solved later one way or the other.

Laukarbo
12-11-2007, 05:57 PM
@ WuJi,thanks for all the informations..u have a great knowledge.For me NCK is a new world and very fascinating.


@ Steeve,I learned my Hung Kuen in Hongkong not in the Philippines..I learned it from Sifu Mark Ho and still learn.(u never stop learning:D) but I know about Lao Kim and one of his students in Cebu mixes it with FMA..but Lao Kim didnt teach Hung Kuen..its clf and a village style...

The Xia
12-11-2007, 06:42 PM
no problem,
I have to say I still learn,practise and teach Hung Kuen...
but since I live in Manila/Chinatown I have a big access to Ngo Cho Kun..
I was really curious about the style..to ur question I just recently started and learned Sam chien and my limited knowledge about ngo cho kun only tells me so far that the style really compliments hung fist. Its a good addition for short distance fighting,and learning short power generation...
Btw,I think sam chien is not really compareble to Tit sin kuen..feels very different but like I said I just learned sam chien and its all new to me..all in all I think that both styles dont bite each other
Sounds great. :)

The Xia
12-11-2007, 06:42 PM
How would you describe the Ngo Cho Kun monkey?

Laukarbo
12-11-2007, 06:51 PM
as far as I know its mainly the footwork

Steeeve
12-11-2007, 07:38 PM
Laukardo

Lao Kim style was the dragon-Tiger style ...call Hong Cha

Johnny Chiuten and Rene navarro was his disciple in Phillipine



take a loook

http://www.beta-sigma.org/jc1.swf

wu-ji
12-11-2007, 11:11 PM
How would you describe the Ngo Cho Kun monkey?

Evasive footwork, cruel hands (targeting weak spots), full of tricks, fluidity, attack/counter attack that uses body momentums - sometimes used as sacrificed counter techniques. Suitable for people with a smaller frame.

Laukarbo
12-12-2007, 09:55 PM
Laukardo

Lao Kim style was the dragon-Tiger style ...call Hong Cha

Johnny Chiuten and Rene navarro was his disciple in Phillipine



take a loook

http://www.beta-sigma.org/jc1.swf


yeah I seen this site before,very interesting.
I know personally a few students of Lao Kim and even learned one of the forms..they said its village hung gar..hong chia is mandarin same meaning...
Tiger dragon style is more possible and it has more a CLF feel than hung fist..
Even the dynamic tension kiu sao was performed with 2 fingers ...:eek:
this seems to be a rare style actually..but not really hung fist

boh
12-15-2007, 03:35 PM
Hi, sorry I came in a bit late into this conversation.

Xia, the Monkey description here may interest you.

A preamble: I am from the Malaysian, Chee Kim Thong Ngo Cho School. Have been practising it for > 30 yrs.

Speaking from our lineage's perspective, lets see if I can describe our art in a way that is less confusing.

NCK consists of 5 styles, sort of melded into 1. The 5 styles each contribute their respective characteristics, which include the physical movements/strokes, the footwork, power generation, internal Qi development & deployment.
for e.g.

White Crane, BaiHe whipping, explosive power, fluid & fast arm
techniques, some footwork, mostly long &
mid-distance, with some close-in techniques.
Strikes are mostly with open palms, fingers and
phoenix-eye.

Monkey, HouQuan quick, tight footwork, tight,close-in defense &
attack, locks & takedown, a lot of quick sneaky
techniques. Hands are in 'monkey paw' (open
hand with thumb tucked in). Has superior use of
body-mechanics, allowing smaller frame persons
to take larger opponents. We have low squat
stances, a few tumbles and somesaults, but far
lesser than other monkeys styles I've seen.

TaiZu very hard linear style (hardly any circular
movements), using the forearms & hands as
knives. Lots of power chops and slices, and
spearhand thrusts. Emphasizes a very upright
and 'face front' posture with very tight & solid
defences and attack, mainly at middle-distance,
with some long and short techniques.

LuoHan Similar to TaiZu with a very bold, upfront
posture, but with powerful but more 'looser'(less
close-in) movements, both circular and linear;
and a different power generation system. Mid to
long distance.
More use of fists.

TatMo Does not contribute physically to the forms, but
contributes the breathing, meditative and Qi
development aspects, to complement that of the
above arts.

* note: 'long-distance' means distances between outstrecthed arms to kick-reach.
'mid' is between out-stretched arm to forearm length distance.
'short/close-in' is anything less than above.

For us there are 18 forms, starting with Sam Chien of course. In the forms, each of the 5 styles are blended in, so within the 18 forms, we don't have a Monkey or Crane form, they are Ngo Cho forms. But within the froms, with some strokes, you can tell quite clearly its from Crane or Monkey etc.. With other you can't. For e.g. our Sam Chien is about 75% Crane.

In addition to the 18 forms, our lineage also has Sam Chien for each of the 4 styles, ie: one for Monkey, Crane, TaiZu, LuoHan, which you get to learn when you're more senior.

So when you learn Ngo Cho, you learn Ngo Cho, and not Crane, TaiZu etc.... at least in the beginning. But having said that, as you get to master Ngo Cho, you also get to understand/learn the specific techniques of its component styles. Once you can do that, you can then 'manifest' a stroke, say a block, with the nuances of Crane, together with its power generation/Qi techniques. OR combine a Crane type strike with Monkey footwork.... this is when it gets really interesting! Learn Ngo Cho and get 4 styles for the price of one! But seriously, "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts".

Also, in our lineage, we emphasize a lot in the internal Qi development, as musch as (or more?) than the so called "internal martial arts".
We also emphasize a lot on 'sticking & listening' (like Wing Chun ChiSao), for profficiency with sensitivity with hand-to-hand contact. 'Hardening' and hand-conditioning' exercises are standard, and bruises on forearms are not uncommon during training.

For us, we neither call our style hard of soft, close-in or long distance, because we have it all. The 5(4) styles give a profficient Ngo Cho practicioneer many techniques to choose from, in application. For example, in an exercise/sparring our techniques may start of soft, but power thru with a hard attack, then change to soft again... Part of the mastering the art is to be able to switch fluidly between the different power-systems/techniques, hard or soft, close-in, mid, long distance.

We also have this thing called "heavy hands", which means being able to deploy power to the arms so that its difficult for an opponent to deflect or block an attack. And this "heaviness" can be used irregardless of whether the stroke is hard or soft, at long, mid, short distances. To develop this we do a lot of 2 man exercises, where we use the 'sticking & listening' with 'heavy hands'. And this is not just 'push-hands' or 'roll-hands', but with fairly powerful push/pulls, strikes and blocks; where if an opponent makes a mistake, he may be 'bounced' 2 or 3 steps backwards. The 'heaviness' and sensitivity training is intricately linked with the 'internal' aspects of the art.

The Xia
12-15-2007, 04:25 PM
Hi, sorry I came in a bit late into this conversation.

Xia, the Monkey description here may interest you.

A preamble: I am from the Malaysian, Chee Kim Thong Ngo Cho School. Have been practising it for > 30 yrs.

Speaking from our lineage's perspective, lets see if I can describe our art in a way that is less confusing.

NCK consists of 5 styles, sort of melded into 1. The 5 styles each contribute their respective characteristics, which include the physical movements/strokes, the footwork, power generation, internal Qi development & deployment.
for e.g.

White Crane, BaiHe whipping, explosive power, fluid & fast arm
techniques, some footwork, mostly long &
mid-distance, with some close-in techniques.
Strikes are mostly with open palms, fingers and
phoenix-eye.

Monkey, HouQuan quick, tight footwork, tight,close-in defense &
attack, locks & takedown, a lot of quick sneaky
techniques. Hands are in 'monkey paw' (open
hand with thumb tucked in). Has superior use of
body-mechanics, allowing smaller frame persons
to take larger opponents. We have low squat
stances, a few tumbles and somesaults, but far
lesser than other monkeys styles I've seen.

TaiZu very hard linear style (hardly any circular
movements), using the forearms & hands as
knives. Lots of power chops and slices, and
spearhand thrusts. Emphasizes a very upright
and 'face front' posture with very tight & solid
defences and attack, mainly at middle-distance,
with some long and short techniques.

LuoHan Similar to TaiZu with a very bold, upfront
posture, but with powerful but more 'looser'(less
close-in) movements, both circular and linear;
and a different power generation system. Mid to
long distance.
More use of fists.

TatMo Does not contribute physically to the forms, but
contributes the breathing, meditative and Qi
development aspects, to complement that of the
above arts.

* note: 'long-distance' means distances between outstrecthed arms to kick-reach.
'mid' is between out-stretched arm to forearm length distance.
'short/close-in' is anything less than above.

For us there are 18 forms, starting with Sam Chien of course. In the forms, each of the 5 styles are blended in, so within the 18 forms, we don't have a Monkey or Crane form, they are Ngo Cho forms. But within the froms, with some strokes, you can tell quite clearly its from Crane or Monkey etc.. With other you can't. For e.g. our Sam Chien is about 75% Crane.

In addition to the 18 forms, our lineage also has Sam Chien for each of the 4 styles, ie: one for Monkey, Crane, TaiZu, LuoHan, which you get to learn when you're more senior.

So when you learn Ngo Cho, you learn Ngo Cho, and not Crane, TaiZu etc.... at least in the beginning. But having said that, as you get to master Ngo Cho, you also get to understand/learn the specific techniques of its component styles. Once you can do that, you can then 'manifest' a stroke, say a block, with the nuances of Crane, together with its power generation/Qi techniques. OR combine a Crane type strike with Monkey footwork.... this is when it gets really interesting! Learn Ngo Cho and get 4 styles for the price of one! But seriously, "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts".

Also, in our lineage, we emphasize a lot in the internal Qi development, as musch as (or more?) than the so called "internal martial arts".
We also emphasize a lot on 'sticking & listening' (like Wing Chun ChiSao), for profficiency with sensitivity with hand-to-hand contact. 'Hardening' and hand-conditioning' exercises are standard, and bruises on forearms are not uncommon during training.

For us, we neither call our style hard of soft, close-in or long distance, because we have it all. The 5(4) styles give a profficient Ngo Cho practicioneer many techniques to choose from, in application. For example, in an exercise/sparring our techniques may start of soft, but power thru with a hard attack, then change to soft again... Part of the mastering the art is to be able to switch fluidly between the different power-systems/techniques, hard or soft, close-in, mid, long distance.

We also have this thing called "heavy hands", which means being able to deploy power to the arms so that its difficult for an opponent to deflect or block an attack. And this "heaviness" can be used irregardless of whether the stroke is hard or soft, at long, mid, short distances. To develop this we do a lot of 2 man exercises, where we use the 'sticking & listening' with 'heavy hands'. And this is not just 'push-hands' or 'roll-hands', but with fairly powerful push/pulls, strikes and blocks; where if an opponent makes a mistake, he may be 'bounced' 2 or 3 steps backwards. The 'heaviness' and sensitivity training is intricately linked with the 'internal' aspects of the art.
Thanks for the information!

wu-ji
12-15-2007, 06:43 PM
Greetings again,

I am just complimenting information that senior Boh gave.

Most of the lineages have sticky hand training for close range applications although it varies.

This "stickiness" training is sometimes attributed to a 6th "ancestor", a female "hian ni" (xuan nu) figure that emphasizes to the soft energy. Some lineages acknowledge this master and practice the soft art. Some practice it without having a clear description about it. Some don't recognize it.

In our lineage, the "soft" art is practiced and given during sticky hand/close quarter training. This is transmitted as the teacher sees how the students can perceive it. Like the Tat Mo ancestor, there is no specific forms for it and it is more of methods/ways than movements. It is very internal, but not as the northern internal families(Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua, etc.) interpret it. In our lineage, this is more of our "yin" energy for "listening" and "bridge making/crossing" while Tat Mo ancestor is more on the "Yang" energy for hard (attack) jin and iron shirt applications.

I know that Chee Kim Tong lineage practices it somehow, but I am not too familiar with their teaching methods. So, it is best for senior Boh to describe it.

In my opinion, NCK is more of a family of concepts than of a style. It is more of the synthesis of the cores of Fujian main arts. For example, (Ngo Cho) Ho Yang Kun is just a branch of the arts as how Sujo Chua Giok Beng synthesized it while Chee Kim Tong's lineage follows a different synthesis from another master.

Hence, there is a great variation and it is hard to describe what "Ngo Cho Kun" is. If you are familiar with the Canine world, it is like Jack Russell Terrier is more of a strain than a breed. We can recognize a Jack Russell Terrier individually, but it is hard to precisely describe it due to its variations (and differences in the ancestors).

wu-ji
12-15-2007, 06:46 PM
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nTSjQBpnZDk

This form, Chong Hap Kun, is a compilation form when masters from different lineages met and synthesized a compulsory form for competition. It has a bit of flavor from different lineages. The performer is Xu Qinghui and his student surname Zhang. Since Xu is from Quanzhou, this performance has a Quanzhou flavor.

boh
12-16-2007, 10:16 AM
hi,

Thanks for the perceptive comments by wu-ji. Since the issue of 'hian ni'/'xian nui' is brought up, here is an interesting anectdote as related by our Grandmaster Chee Kim Thong. It may be more legend than fact but is interesting nevertheless.

The 4 masters were discussing and 'touching hands', determining which strokes and techniques to incorporate into the Ngo Cho forms, a young lady passed by, observed their activities and giggled at them. The masters were obviously annoyed and enquired from the young lady what she found amusing. "Your techniques are all so hard, you should have some softer techniques!", she said. Of course this prompted the masters to invite her to show them, whereby she promptly overcame them. Shortly after, the young lady left, and the masters never found out her name or what style she represented, so they just refered to her as 'xian nui', which literally means "the lady in the blue dress". Realising this, the master incorporated the softer aspects into Ngo Chor. Hence she is attributed to be the mysterious 6th ancestor.
(My suspicion is that she is from the Wumei (NgMui - cantonese) school, but that's just my guess.)

But having said that, Grandmaster Chee did teach (only one?) Xian Nui form, and also of WuMei (where he learned from a different master).

Our lineage of Ngo Chor is from a master named Lim Yean who taught only 2 students, Grandmaster Chee and his (Lim Yean) grand daughter.

I'd like to add a few more comments on top of wu-ji's, "NCK is more of a family of concepts than of a style" as I beg to differ. I would like to think of it as a distinct style, as the its forms is different from those of its components styles. I think the NCK masters have done a wonderful job of integrating the different styles into one, so that they 'synergise' ie: so that techniques of one style leverages on the tehcniques of other styles, and the whole thing fits together seamlessly.

Also, the way we train, the exercises and so on are different from that, for e.g. practised by a (pure) Crane school. Yet it has been able to preserve the essence, in terms of core techniques both internal & external of the component styles. And once you gain more mastery of the style, can then diassemble and assemble the different components, mix and match and that makes it very interesting, both from a research/learning point of view as well as application! This gives the profficient NCK practioneer a very wide range of techniques to choose from, or he may decide to focus his training into one direction (like Crane for e.g.) and adapt/inteprete the other strokes into a 'Crane Way' of execution. Hence, that's why "the whole is truly greater than the sums of its parts".

Having said all this, NCK is not hard to learn, but may be hard to master! But you will pick up some key concepts fairly early on, like "stable stances", "heavy hands", "listening". That's how its taught in our lineage anyway.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZASjKEQloKk

Hopefully, to clarify, this' a video posted by Eric Ling. He visited us in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia and we were exchanging techniques. The first part was Eric demonstrating his Whooping Crane applications, from 0:36 onwards I was explaining some applications from Sam Chien, and from 1:30 sticky hands (done with 'heavy hands' to uproot the opponents stance).

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=55J56LQWHxg

This clip shows a short Hian Ni/Xian Nui form, performed by Yap Cheng Hai in QuanQou Nan Shou Lin Conference 2004(?).

wu-ji
12-16-2007, 07:12 PM
Senior Boh,

Are you Yap Boh Heong, by any chance?

What I meant as "family" is a synthesis, much eloquently described, then summarized by you with the Gestalt notion of "the whole is larger than the sum of its parts."

That's a very nice demonstration of you. From my eyes, it looks like you were using hianni energy with crane hands/distance. Nice bridging/controlling and sinking.

Thank you for the explanations.

boh
12-16-2007, 11:10 PM
yes, I am Yap Boh Heong.

you have extensive knowledge on ngo cho.
But I dont see any info on your public profile, so have we met? ;-)

you can contact me via private msg/mail.

wu-ji
12-16-2007, 11:46 PM
Thank you. I still have much to learn. I just wish to share information to the interested gentlemen (and ladies) here.


PS: Private message sent.

The Xia
12-28-2007, 05:08 PM
What are the stances in Ngo Cho Kun?

wu-ji
12-30-2007, 12:33 PM
Greetings,

I am answering your question here: http://ngochokun.proboards52.com

Thank you.

diego
12-31-2007, 11:37 AM
Good thread you guys...interesting style!. I would love to see more of the Monkey combat usage...I do a derivative of Hop Gar and I'm 6 foot four 185 pounds cut...My great grand father was 6 foot 4 and 150 pounds when he won a bronze medal for boxing in the world war 2 olympics and he was in the navy...that reach for a tall fit person is impeccable against the average joe...most people are about 5 foot ten...:) Hop Gar long fists fit my frame perfectly. What yall wrote about the monkey is good for small guys sounds like the oppossitte of what I train, and that really intrigues me!.

IronWeasel
02-19-2008, 04:13 PM
Hi guys.


Can someone tell me how "Ngo Cho Kun" is pronounced?


Thanx

Piercinghammer
02-19-2008, 08:01 PM
I'm pretty sure its like.... No so Kune.

so I've been told.

wu-ji
02-19-2008, 11:10 PM
"ng" requires a nasal voice. so "ngo" is pronounced like "go" with a nasal voise. It means "five". The Japanese pronunciation of "go" is identical to it. This sound is not available in English. Some Fujian dialects pronounce it as "go". So, if it is hard, "go" is find (like in "go away"). "Cho" is pronounced like "joe" but with "ch" instead of "j", a bit lighter. "kun" is like "goon" but with a "k" instead of a "g"

bakxierboxer
02-20-2008, 04:28 PM
...My great grand father was 6 foot 4 and 150 pounds when he won a bronze medal for boxing in the world war 2 olympics....

What WW2 Olympics?
There were no Olympic Games held during either WW1 (1916) or WW2 (1940 & 1944).

IronWeasel
02-20-2008, 08:54 PM
Thanx for the replies so far, guys.

wu-ji
02-20-2008, 11:01 PM
You will find more info if you go to the board I mentioned above. NCKers are congregating there.

taokum
09-14-2010, 09:21 PM
5 ancestor Eng Chun?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anybody hear of Ngo Cho Wing Chun USA Group?
The emblem at the bottom of the pic looks like the same Ngo Cho Kun Eng Chun from Indonesia but with name "Ngo Cho Wing Chun USA Group".

5 ancestor Wing Chun anyone?

hskwarrior
09-14-2010, 09:56 PM
i mean really! you have a wing chun area to place this mess.

taokum
09-14-2010, 10:03 PM
Sorry but are there any Ngo Cho practicers here?

taokum
09-16-2010, 07:31 AM
This is the same teacher brought up in the Ngo Cho thread back in 2007. I hear lots of people say Lin has Lo Han Kung Fu mixed with Vikoga wing chun. Its clear that from Ngo Cho Kun that one of the 5 ancestors was Lo Han. In Indo styles are mixed, so maybe Lin sees nothing wrong with making up stuff and telling as truth.

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=825600&postcount=27


There are, of course, other teachers from different lineages. However, I don't know about them enough to recommend their instructions. These include (there could be more):

- Bonifacio Lim (Beng Kiam)- NJ area
- Ben Asuncion (Beng Kiam) - LA, CA area
- Mark Wiley (Bengkiam) - CO area if I am not mistaken.
- Jose Parman (I forgot) - San Jose, CA area
- John Graham (Chee Kim Tong) - Mobile, AL (more of his students in AL area)
- Kenneth Lim in VA area. He advertises more as a Wing Chun and Hokkian Eng Chun styles, but one of his teachers is from Gui In Lam lineage.
- Kam Lee (A Malaysian lineage that I forgot) in FL
- Lo Ban Teng group as represented by Lo Siauw Gok's lineage is ready to start teaching in USA. Lo Hak Lun, Lo Siauw Gok's son states that hopefully it will happen in less than a year.

It is unethical for me to comment on Bonifacio

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49287&page=2

The noise about black flag wing chun is getting clear but why is Ngo Cho Eng Chun taking a hit because of Lin?

David Jamieson
09-16-2010, 07:54 AM
dman these wing chun fools and their spreading their stupid political arguments across the whole forums. get out of here with this junk.

you have your own dang forum to go and bicker about your 3 sets, two weapons and a dummy.

:p but seriously :mad:

hskwarrior
09-16-2010, 08:26 AM
I agree. If we wanted to know anything about wing chun, we would visit the wing chun section of this whole forum. but, no one cares about the drama in your system here. this here is for Hung Kuen and Choy Lee Fut types. so flap your "wing"s chun back to the wing chun section and bicker about your issues there.

see ya wouln't wanna be ya! don't let let the door hitcha where the good lord splitcha. :D

hskwarrior
09-16-2010, 08:42 AM
Jeung Hung Sing : Victory to the Hung Mun
In the mountains of Chinas’ Guangxie Province in 1841, one of the famous 5 Ancestors of the Hung Mun Secret Society was living out the last days of his life when a 17 year old Jeung Ah Yim came searching for him. Once he learned of Jeung Ah Yim’s real purpose for being there he chose to take him on as a student and taught Jeung Ah Yim the art Fut Gar Kuen, taught him Chinese Medicine, and instilled the revolutionary spirit in him and personally groomed him to become a fighting squad commander called a Red Pole.

The Monk Ching Cho then renamed Jeung Ah Yim. The new name was Hung Sing which was a synonym for a 4 character slogan that refers to the Hung Mun winning the Victory. This 4 Character slogan is found on the flags of all 5 Hung Mun lodges as Winning the victory in overthrowing the Qing Empire was one of their strongest sentiments.

One of the most important bases for the Hung Mun was in the city of Fut San. Since a revolution was a bout to take place, the Green Grass Monk sent the newly named Jeung Hung Sing To Fut San to contact their leaders and open a location to begin teaching their freedom fighters.

Jeung Hung Sing’s gung fu swarmed over Fut San where entire neighborhoods were used as Hung Sing training halls (1849). Then in time with the Tai Ping Rebellion (1851) Jeung Hung Sing officially launched the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon. From that point forward, he and his disciples were involved with every major uprising in southern china including the 2nd Opium War, the Red Turban Revolt, and even defended the city of Fut San during the Japanese invasion, in which they later got a commendation from the government for protecting their country.

In 1832 a member of the Green Grass Monk’s lodge which later changed its name to the Ghee Kung Tong arrived to set up their lodge in San Francisco. Here, the Hung Sing lineage once again reconnected on this continent with the Hung Mun in the 1930’s and has continued on through the present day.
But, the original Hung Sing name did eventually bring on some negative attention and Jeung Hung Sing was forced to change his schools name to avoid further drama.

Although the new Hung Sing name was less obvious, it was filled with a few connections to the Green Grass monk. This name change took place sometime prior or just after the passing of Chan Heung in 1875. And according to the Chan Family, it’s possible the name also stood for “Lofty Achievements” since Jeung Hung Sing was recognized for being one of southern China’s greatest fighters.

洪勝 The original name given to Jeung Ah Yim by the Green Grass Monk.
Victory to the Hung Mun

鴻勝 The new name Jeung Ah Yim used to replace the original.
Glorious Victory

I am proud to be from a long line of fighters, as well as members of the Hung Mun. I am honored to carry the same rank once shared by Jeung Hung Sing, Lau Bun, Jew Leong, my sifu, and even my brother Dr. Sun Yat Sen. Long Live the Hung Sing lineage.
__________________
My Club About Me Hong Ying Youth Development
Green Grass Monk

洪 * 門 *.´. * 三 * 川 * 口 * 四 * 二 * 六 * 2B1A1

Congratulations Grandmaster Frank, you are now the founder of a new style or a new branch of CLF! We can now all kowtow to you, Grandmaster Frank.

XJ

RB93SAAT
09-17-2010, 06:50 PM
Thanks for the information from Ngo Cho Kun lineage.

The latest scandal of black flag wing chun from inside of Ngo Cho Kun school. Kenneth Lin betrayed his teacher Gui In Lam by borrowing Ngo Cho Kun's Sam Chien and mixing it up with Chung Che Man's wing chun ( really Ip Man wing chun ) and adverstises himself as Wing Chun and Hakkian Eng Chun. In 2005, after Lin reading a few books about Chinese secret socities, suddenly Lin came up with a black flag/5flag wing chun shaolin story to promote himself as a black flag wing chun grandmaster. Such a claim is totally outrageous. Now even the people from his old school of Ngo Cho Kun do not accept his false represention of their Lo Han kung fu. Too much propaganda and sales pitches not enough evidence to validate black flag wing chun can go beyond Chung Che Man (Ip Man wing chun).

lol, kenneth lin sees nothing wrong with making up stuff like black flag wing chun as truth. lin's students want fantasy.

hskwarrior
09-17-2010, 07:49 PM
http://clubfuji.com/Ash/STFU2.jpg

taokum
09-18-2010, 10:56 AM
Ngo Cho Kun (5 ancestors) has a male/female history, like Black Flag Eng Chun. I'll show you how as best I can. Kenneth Lin's (Salim) martial arts background is known in Indo before he left. He learned Gui In Lam's Ngo Cho Kun lineage and then picked up Vikoga Wing Chun from Chung Che Man. When Lin came to America in 2005 he promoted Ngo Cho Kun and Vikoga Wing Chun as Ngo Cho Eng Chun Male/Female family tree. When he heard of VTM's promotion of Shaolin Wing Chun he started to change his story in the Indo forums and advertisement in America. He attached Shaolin Wing Chun stories that VTM promotes to make a transistion. Today Kenneth Lin is trying to erase his Ngo Cho Eng Chun male/female family tree and Gui In Lam's Ngo Cho Kun background by calling it Black Flag Wing Chun. He does this to declare himself grandmaster of Black Flag Wing Chun and promote his teacher Tio Tik Kwie's status. What does VTM gain from this? Money from magazine articles, books and Shaolin Wing Chun 3-halls program. There is always a motive. Sergio gains advertisement promotion for his large schools in Europe. But this is at the expense of Ngo Cho Eng Chun and maybe others.

Original Black Flag Wing Chun Male/Female branch:
Kenneth Lin called his kung fu "Ngo Cho Eng Chun USA Group" when he came to America but today in 2010 he has transitioned to Black Flag Wing Chun. His family tree had a male and female branch as he published originally. Lin promoted the male/female version of Ngo Cho Eng Chun USA Group. Lin himself at first stated to the VTM: “The system as it was passed down was preserved in two forms: a Male aspect and a Female aspect.” Today his orginal promotion has changed. Today he declares himself as the grandmaster of Black Flag Eng Chun while erasing the female side, Vikoga Wing Chun, from his family tree and Ngo Cho Kun from the male side.
Where did Lin come up with a story of male/female for his Ngo Cho Eng Chun? Lin used Ngo Cho Kun's family story for his self promotion and transistion to Shaolin Wing Chun Black Flag. You see Ngo Cho Kun has a story about a 6th ancestor who was female, I'll show soon. But first, here is Black Flag Wing Chun's orignal explaination in its transistion from Ngo Cho Eng Chun's male/female history.

Ngo Cho Eng Chun/Black Flag Eng Chun's male side (Lin's original):
For the male branch, Lin had Ngo Cho Kun 5 male ancestor family lineage and teachers. That's what he wanted us to believe. (Today this is Shaolin temple 5 Flag Wing Chun)
Ngo Cho Eng Chun/Black Flag Eng Chun's female side (Lin's original):
For the Female branch, he labeled Ng Mui & sometimes Yim Wing Chun. Lin learned various Wing Chun under Victor Leow's Vikoga Wing Chun family tree. (Today this is Shoalin Red Flag Wing Chun or some color)

So you see, Kenneth Lin originally married Ngo Cho Kun with Vikoga Wing Chun to call it Ngo Cho Eng Chun USA Group in 2005. This is where the Ngo Cho Kun's family story fits into his Black Flag Eng Chun promotion. You see Ngo Cho Kun is known to have a male/female story.

Ngo Cho Kun Male side:
Ngo Cho Kun has mixtures of 5 Ancestor styles: White Crane, Monkey, TaiZu(Grand Ancestor) and Lo Han (18 Immortals) and Tat Chun (Bodhidharma's method).
Ngo Cho Kun Female side:
Mysterious Female Fist (6th Ancestor)

Facts:
Kenneth Lin's Ngo Cho Kun family lineage is from Gui In Lam.
Kenneth Lin's Wing Chun family lineage is from Vikoga Wing Chun.
Kenneth Lin called the marriage of Ngo Cho Kun and Vikoga Wing Chun, Ngo Cho Eng Chun.
Kenneth Lin has never denied learning Vikoga Wing Chun or Ngo Cho Kun.
Ngo Cho Kun is known to have a 6th female ancestor, Mysterious Female Fist.
VTM promotes a super secret Shaolin Wing Chun 3-halls ("Dim" for Fukien dialect effect) program.

This is the male/female story of Ngo Cho Kun! May the truth shine over Black Flag Eng Chun and the changing stories of Kenneth Salim, Benny Meng and Sergio!!!

GeneChing
10-09-2015, 10:55 AM
Read 36 Years of Beng Kiam (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1257) by Tan Ka Hong. This article is published in conjunction with Kim So: The Handlocks of Ngo Cho Kun By Alexander L. Co, Dr. Mark Wiley and Russ Smith in our NOV+DEC 2015 issue (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1251).

SevenStar
02-11-2016, 02:05 PM
Any of the ngo chor guys still around?

GeneChing
05-31-2016, 11:45 AM
Enter to win KungFuMagazine.com's contest for Kong Han Cho Kun autographed by Henry Lo and Daniel Kun Will (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/sweepstakes-kong-han-ngo-cho-kun.php)! Contest ends 5:30 p.m. PST on 6/09/2016

GeneChing
06-24-2016, 01:56 PM
See our WINNERS: Kong Han Ngo Cho Kun autographed by Henry Lo and Daniel Kun Will (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?69593-WINNERS-Kong-Han-Ngo-Cho-Kun-autographed-by-Henry-Lo-and-Daniel-Kun-Will) thread

GeneChing
09-27-2018, 03:14 PM
The Gentle Side of Five Ancestors Fist
By Daniel Kun

FALL 2018 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1436)

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/upload/1840_KFM2018-Fall-Cover.jpg

GeneChing
01-03-2019, 08:36 AM
READ The Many Forms of Five Ancestors Fist By Sifu Daniel Kun in our WINTER 2019 issue (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1446). Available digitally too via Zinio (https://www.zinio.com/publisher/kung-fu-tai-chi-m5078).

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine//images/mcover/201901winter.jpg

GeneChing
03-01-2019, 12:23 PM
Enter to win KungFuMagazine.com's contest for Kong Han Goh Cho Kun: Five Ancestor Fist Book II Autographed by author Daniel Kun (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/sweepstakes-kong-han-goh-cho-kun.php)! Contest ends 5:30 p.m. PST on 3/14/2019.

http://www.kungfumagazine.com//admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/images/ezine/2046_Kong-Han-Goh-Ngo-Cho-2-Sweepstake.jpg

GeneChing
03-19-2019, 10:36 AM
See our WINNERS: Kong Han Goh Cho Kun: Five Ancestor Fist Book II Autographed by Daniel Kun (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71242-WINNERS-Kong-Han-Goh-Cho-Kun-Five-Ancestor-Fist-Book-II-Autographed-by-Daniel-Kun) thread.

GeneChing
04-23-2019, 03:17 PM
SPRING 2019 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1472)

Five Ancestors
Functionality of Goh Cho Kun Kung Fu
By Daniel Kun

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/upload/4338_KFM2019-Spring.jpg

GeneChing
02-03-2020, 03:10 PM
The Mountain Trident of Five Ancestors
By Daniel Kun

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/upload/9183_202001_Winter.jpg

WINTER 2020 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1518)

THREADS
Tiger Fork (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?16266-Fu-Pa-Tiger-Fork) Slightly OT here because this is not a 'tiger' fork but we don't have a 'mountain trident' thread
Five Ancestors (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?1755-Five-Ancestors-Wuzhuquan-Ngo-Cho-Kuen)