Chi Sau tech question?

[flavour54]

Hi, I was recently trying to post a reply to Sandmans "Inside or outside" but I could not access the topic right now and will post my full interpretatation of what I have learned when I can but for now wouldn't Pak sau on a straight punch done forcefully put you on the outside? I say this as you seemed to be saying that pak was an inside move.I think the trick is to put yourself on the outside by letting the opponent commit and therefore presenting his blind side to you.And now for my own question

What stance do you guys take when practicing Chi sau i.e. front stance/neutral stance or either or?I have been taught that there are no hard and fast rules.

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"take the pebble from my hand"

[This message has been edited by flavour54 (edited 05-16-2000).]

[Highlander]

A pak sao, like most WC techniques, can be applied to either the inside or the outside of a strike. The one exception that comes to mind is the Bong Sao. We are taught that this is intended to be right against left and left against right. However, if you do bong with the wrong hand, there are things you can flow into, but bonging with the wrong hand puts you in a less advantageous position than bonging with the correct hand. But basically, WC techniques are ambidextrious.

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

flavor54: Yes, you can do pac sao on the inside of the arm(ie: your arm is in tan/bong, they are in fook, use other hand to pac away the fook sau allowing you to punch forward with that arm), if fact, this is one of the very first chi sao techniques taught in our kwoon, once you begin using both arms and aren't just doing dan chi sao anymore. As far as stances, we usually start off in the Yee Chi Kim Yeung Ma, and turn/step when appropriate.

Thanks!
Sandman[Wing Chun]

[FUJIYakumo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Highlander:
The one exception that comes to mind is the Bong Sao. We are taught that this is intended to be right against left and left against right. However, if you do bong with the wrong hand, there are things you can flow into, but bonging with the wrong hand puts you in a less advantageous position than bonging with the correct hand.[/quote]

the way i see it you can bong sau to the inside or outside it makes no difference.
i was never taught that bong sau goes to the opposite side as you sated.

do you have the same theory concerning say quan sao? that its only a right to left or left to right?

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[Sihing73]

Hi All,

I am trying to post less and train more however here are a few thoughts;

Bong Sau is normally done to the opposite arm. There are indeed exceptions. However, one of the reasons Bong is done mostly to the opposite arm is due to the structure and the fact that one will turn with an excess of force from the opponent. Consider this; your opponenet throws a right punch which you deflect with a Bong Sau. His force is too strong for you so you turn, as a result of his force not your own. Now, if you have decided to meet his right arm with your right arm and you are forced to turn you will be facing away from your opponent. Also the structure will be wrong for you to properly dissipate his force. Of course, the answer would be to convert the Bong to a Taun but that is if you are sensitive enough. Again, this is not a hard and fast rule, you can do Bong to the same side it is just a little bit different.

One final point to consider, all of your techniques should come as a result of what the opponent gives you. If you are posing Wu Sau Man Sau (Asking hands/prefighting posture or whatever you choose to call it) If the opponents force comes across the back of your hand and the force is going straight or towards your shoulder you would most likely be prodded into a Taun Sau. If however the force crosses your body and heads towards the opposite side a Bong would be more likely. So you see you can do Bong with either yhand depending on what is given to you. Oh, should the force/attack come to the palm side of your hand then a Pak could be used. Again, Pak can be either inside or outside.

To think in terms of this or that is limiting and does not allow you to explore the concepts of Wing Chun. If your Wing Chun is nothing more than a collection of "techniques" then I am afraid you have missed the boat and will fall victim to a rigid interpretation which a skilled fighter will be able to take advantage of.

Sorry, a couple of more things: I prefer to stay to the outside unless I am sure of my superiority over my opponent. Reason are simple it is easier to correct mistakes. The inside takes more skill and can be less forgiving. Not to say you will not be forced to fight there just my personal preference.

As to what stance, to start with is always the basic horse, then stepping forward and stance turning. In the end anything should go with any stance or combination of such.

Well that is my contribution for what it's worth. I'm back to lurking and training. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Lord knows I need it.

Peace,

Dave

Nice post, Dave. You're obviously a very skilled practitioner...I'm very jealous, as I sit rubbing jow all over my bruises.

The thing that I *like* about wing chun is that it's not a "if he does this, then you do that" oriented art. I like the spontaneity (oh, I think I butchered that word), the flexibility, and the emphasis on reactive training. I keep centerline theory in my head, I pay attention to my technique, and the rest flows really well from the basic training we do every day. And I'm constantly surprised at my newfound ability to set up techniques and combos from my "pre-wing chun" days.

Just my 2 cents...

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Peace.
Reverend Tim

[flavour54]

There seems to be no nice way of putting this.
I hope you all do not attempt pak sao on the inside of a straight punch.
If you are talking about round punches or hooks then I agree.
I have practiced bong sau on the inside but do not favor the technique as it leaves your ribs very exposed to a bodyshot from their opposite hand.
Sandman, The way I have interpreted is this:- Use your fooksao hand to paksao thier fooksao hand. I must try it as I have only recently (2 months) started Double arm Chi Sao.
Sihing, I don't understand Wing Chun, is what I have been told, and it does keep suprising me.
I have been told that it takes a lot longer than 1.5 years, but I do know that there is a lot more than a collection of techniques.
On the other hand of course it has been said that if you knew all the forms from Sil Lum Tao to Bill Gee you would know 10percent of Wing Chun. If you knew the wooden dummy you would know 80percent. Is the wooden dummy not a collection of techniques?
You also said 1 other thing which caught my attention.
Horse Stance for Chi Sao?
"Please explain?"
(Pauline Hansen)

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"take the pebble from my hand"

[Sihing73]

Hi flavour54,

Wing Chun is not a collection of techniques it is rather a compilation of concepts and principles. As to understanding Wing Chun who really does? Wing Chun is something that you personalize to fit your needs and body structure. Of course there has to be a framework upon which to build. You need a foundation in order to move on and grow stronger. In most Wing Chun systems this framework is found in the forms. However, in certain others, Gau Lau for example, it is found in a collection of "points" or concepts. Gua Lau has no set forms. Think of it kind of like Hsing Yi, there are only five movements but an infinite number of possibilities. In Gua Lau there are 40 points. If you truly understand the concept being taught then you can make anything work within the "confines" of the system. I have been told to never collapse my Taun yet I have indeed collapsed it at times and used the element of surprise to turn the tables on my opponent. This does not make me any better than anyone else it just helps to show how diverse Wing Chun can truly be.

As to Bong on the inside I would agree that ones level of sensitivity must be higher to make it work. As I pointed out should the force be too great the alternative is to turn the Bong into something else, a Taun or a Lop seem most popular.

The dummy is a form As such it contains techniques and could be called a collection of techniques. However it is like an onion, that is only the superficial layer. IF that is as far as one gets then mastery will never be reached. Once you understand the priciples and the WHY of how a technique works you can then apply that prinicple in a variety of ways. The main benefit of the dummy is that it will give you immediate feedback. If done properly you can tell if your stance is correct, too close, to far etc. It trains you to focus on the center and continue to exert your energy into the center. It will also aide you in Chi Sau by forcing you to adjust your position when clinging to the arms. You can say it is a colleciton of techinques but that is looking at things from only one perspective.

As to Pak on the inside of a straight punch why not? Pak works fine. You can also use your punch to exclude the incoming punch and supplement the Pak. Remember, one thing about Wing Chun is that often both hands and a leg work together so it is not just Pak that will be applied. I would not use a Pak against a roundhouse I would prefer a Taun. Pak would require me to reach for the attack and I rather not to do that. Remember your response is dictated by what the opponenet gives you not by what you want to do. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In the beginnning I think most systems of Wing Chun would take up the "Pigeon Toed Stance" and perform Chi Sau from this position without movement. As one developes then a simple step forward would be added. Of course to deal with the step would require you to turn or step as well. Eventually you can be moving all around and still playing the hands.

ReverendTim,
Thanks for you kind words but I am really not that good. I have been fortunate in having had the opportunity to train with some very skilled people and some of their knoweldge has rubbed off on me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If you met me you would see an out of shape person with a bum left hand. Although, I still seem to hold my own /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Well, that is my contribution for now. If it is helpful that is fine. If not then sorry. In the end it does not matter how well one talks what matters is how well one can apply what they talk about. There is an old saying "Let the hands talk" Hands do not lie.

Peace,

Dave

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

First off, I completely agree with Sihing73's comments on the use of bong sau. I'll just add that there are other varients that use it a bit differently, although not in a fashion that I would default to, seeing as bong is one of those thing we are taught not to stay in any longer than absolutely neccessary. I try and use it purely as a transitional move, although, some of the Koo Sang material I've seen has bong being used in a very aggressive, offensive fashion, both as an active attempt to cover, and as a device to disrupt balance. This usage is actually what prompted my "inside or outside" thread, as these techniques and methods are all used fighting on the inside. Although, i have to say, I always prefer to get outside and slightly to one side.

I also think he is correct in his statement that WC isn't just "a collection of techniques". Techniques are great, but it's the "Kung" or quality of movement, jing, and reaction that you really want. Stick with it, and you'll come to see this.

As for "train more, post less", heh, well, I only post while I'm at work, where I have ample time for it, and no opportunity to practice my WC. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Flavor54:
There are many happy usages for the noy, or inside, pac sau. What I was describing was from the basic poon sau, when you roll to tan and fook, and the other guy is in bong and fook, at the end of the roll slide that fook hand over and pac away his fook sau, freeing your tan to perform a straight punch. Another usage of noy pac is: you and opponent square off in your guard postion from a closed stance, and you enter with a pac and straight punch. The opponent stops your straight punch with his own pac sau, with the force coming forward and not pushing to either side. At this point, you can take the hand that already did the outside pac, and rapidly pac away his pac-ing hand, freeing your straight punch to continue. This is just another example, like what has been said before, there are no "set" rules here. You just learn to respond appropriately, with your reactions dictated by the opponent. ANTICIPATION IS YOUR ENEMY! As for the wooden dummy, it is far more than just a colletion of techniques, which is true of WC as a whole. I'll leave that to your sifu to explain.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Thanks!
Sandman[Wing Chun]

[flavour54]

Good answers, I thank you for your help, however I can still think of a lot of preferred options than pak sauing on the inside of a straight punch i.e lap sau with same arm, bil sau front kick with same arm, pak sau with opposite arm.
On the inside of a round however, I have found useful as you can use the same arm for a neck hit with the blade of your hand, although this is not my "preferred" technique but definetly applicable.
I still don't understand "horse stance" for Chi sau Sihing73.And again thank you for an intelligent answer which I have become accustom to from you in the past.




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"take the pebble from my hand"

[flavour54]

Hi Sandman, Sihing, and everybody else who has contributed to this post.
Today, I went and did it, I Pak Saued on the inside of a straight in predetermined drills and found the other fist of my opponent in my face virtually, it seems unavoidable.
I understand that there are no "wrong" ways to do things but better choices for now.

As a definition of Wing Chun that I have been told by my Sifu metaphorically is this.

To understand Wing Chun understand to use a screwdriver to screw in a screw and a hammer to hammer in a nail but mastery is to successfully be able to use the hammer to screw in the screw and use the sxrewdriver to hammer in the nail.

But what I meant was that surely LOGIC would tell you not to pak on the inside of a straight.


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"take the pebble from my hand"

[Highlander]

flavour54 ..... IMHO the key to successfully using an inside Pak Sao is the immediate follow-up move with the same hand. In the beginning of Sil Lim Tao, after the three Fak Saos, we do a Pak Sao, leave the Pak extended and swing the hand back to the centerline with the arm extended and the palm facing outward (Fong Style). I have also seen this done with a quick Pak, the hand retracted to the centerline and then a straight palm strike along the centerline (Ho Kam Ming Style). Both these moves have to be done vary fast in application. In the first case the extended palm could be replaced with a chop to the neck and in the second case the palm strike could strike the chest or the shoulder of the second strike and thereby steal the opponents power. Either way, by bringing the Paking hand back to the centerline you remove your opponents direct line of attack and force him to use a longer, slower, circular strike.

But you are also, asking why would I use it as opposed to another techique. Well, IMHO the unique qualities of Pak Sao are it is used to strike as opposed to control and it is a non-centerline motion. What I find significant about that is striking the inside of a forearm can deaden or stun a hand and if there is something in the hand, it can force the assailant to release his grip. A stronger strike to the forearm would be a verticle punch or Wu Sao, but both of these are centerline strikes which means that you have to turn to line your centerline up with the target. With a Pak Sao you can strike the target while keeping your centerline on your opponents center. This puts you in a better position to follow up or defend against a second punch.

Lastly, these applications are based on the phylosophy I mentioned in the Inside/Outside thread. And that is, never attack the inside of a larger, stronger, or heavily agressive fighter (one just punching rapidly and wildly). It is too easy to get over powered. If your phylosophy is different, then that will effect your application.

[Sihing73]

Flavour54,

Please do not take this the wrong way but if you are ever in Philly you can punch me with a straight and I gaurantee I will show you that a Pak to the inside will work. Remember what I said earlier about two hands working together? The application of this inside Pak can be found within the first form. Think about the section where you Pak and then come back to center, in some cases you will go to a Taun. This can be applied to a 1-2 combination regardless of which hand is the first punch. In the one case the right hand punches you Pak with the right hand and then draw that hand back to the right to counter the second punch by the left hand. In another case you deal with a left punch with an outside Pak and then turn the technique into a Taun or whatever you like to deal with the second right hand punch.

Also, think of this, Pak is a technique which should flow into something else. In other words I Pak my opponents hand, I do not need to follow his hand I only need to deflect it from its intended target. Once I have initiated the Pak/deflection/parry, I rebound from his hand to some other attack with what used to be my Pak. It can become a Bill Tze, A Palm, A Punch whatever. Also, I will be utilizing my other hand to defend against anything that might get past my first line of defense.

I hate to say this like this but if you are unable to utilize a Pak against the inside of an attack then more practice is needed. I would say a deeper understanding of the technique needs to be absorbed. There are no hard and fast rules, no right or wrong but please, don't tell me the technique will not work just because it does not work for you. I can't tell you how many times I have visited schools, in my youth /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif , where someone would say this or that technique would not work and I showed the opposite.

Look to the Dummy and other forms for guidence. You will find ample examples of the inside Pak. I am reminded of a saying by Yip Man. "Bong is the best and the worst technique". Why did he say that? Because if you could utilize Bong well you could deflect a great amount of force if you did it wrong you would get hit. This does not mean Bong was wrong but rather there was a failing on the part of the user.

Again, this is not said to offend but hopefully to help you to reconsider the applicaiton. If you are getting hit you need to examine why. I bet if you can find out what you are doing wrong, could your stance be off for example, then you will find you can use this technique. Either way I wish you well.

Peace,

Dave

[Sihing73]

Hello All,

Here is an article on Chi Sau footwork by David Peterson who was one of the late Wong Shueng Longs instructors. I am offering th article for everyones edificaton. You can find the original at:

www.wingchunkuen.com (http://www.wingchunkuen.com)

Peace,

Dave

Footwork in Chi Sau
by David Peterson

It goes without saying (but I'll say it anyway!), that 'Chi Sau' without footwork is like fishing without a rod. Unless one has a "delivery system", how can one expect to "take one's goods to the market place"? Of course, beginning 'Chi Sau' as a stationary exercise is crucial, in order to firstly make sure that the basic shapes & structures are correct, in much the same way that the 'Siu Nim Tau' form is practised standing still. What I teach my students, as a "bridge" between the basic "single-hand" drill ('Dan Sau') and the more complex "double-hand" drill ('Poon Sau') is a "moving/stepping" variation of the first exercise. This follows various footwork drills whereby the students learn both attacking and defensive footwork, both with and without partners, and consists of the following: the person in the 'Taan Sau' position steps in with their 'Jing Jeung' ("vertical palm") attack, to which the person in the 'Fook Sau' position responds by applying 'Jam Sau' ("sinking arm") deflection, supported by 'Tui Ma' ("side-stepping") away from the attack. From here, the "defender" then attacks with a punch as he/she uses 'Seung Ma' ("forward-stepping") to advance towards their partner's position. In response, if the partner feels (and I emphasise, "feels") that their "Centreline" position is not overly threatened, they can respond by "shuffling" away to the side (a simple variation on the basic 'Tui Ma', whereby the stance remains in the same configuration, but is shifted slightly backwards and away from the attacker) and convert their 'Jing Jeung' attack into a 'Taan Sau' defence. At this time, they can also "counter-attack" with a fist or palm attack if they wish. Alternatively, if the initial "attack" is felt to be too strong and in control of the "Centreline", a defence is created by "long-stepping" ( the opposite variation to the basic 'Tui Ma', whereby the forward leg retreats backwards and to the side, becoming the rear leg of the stance, while the body is now placed on the opposite side of the attacking limb), accompanied by a 'Bong Sau' deflection. Two very important points to note here are:


no matter which way one ends up stepping, the stepping is determined largely by what one feels, in other words, how the enemy shows you by his/her own movement how to overcome them.
While the "shuffle-step" shifts one backwards and to the side, the "long-step" MUST be a more lateral motion towards the side because 'Bong Sau' is NOT structurally sound enough to support the force of the attack if the footwork is a backwardly moving action, due to 'Bong Sau's' totally defensive nature.
IThe way in which we practised footwork in the "Double-hand" variation of 'Chi Sau' when learning in Hong Kong under Sifu's guidence commenced with the addition of a basic "attacking-step" ('Seung Ma') being applied to match the 'Taan Sau' position (ie: if the right hand was in 'Taan Sau', then the right foot would step forward, and vice-versa). This takes place at the "bottom of the roll", when the 'Bong Sau' converts to 'Taan Sau'. In response to this "attack", the "defender" makes use of the "Fook Sau Principle" (as drilled in the first section of the 'Siu Nim Tau' form), whereby the 'Fook Sau' remains in position with constant forward (elbow) force, resulting in the opponent's energy being transferred through to the stance, thus causing a natural "collapse" into the 'Tui Ma' ("side-stepping") action. At the same time, the defender's other hand remains in 'Bong Sau' and the "Centreline" is directed back towards the opponent, ensuring the ability to control and/or attack with either/both hands. To further test the position/reaction, the training partner "attacking" can immediately, from the position that they are in, try to "attack" again by stepping and forcing forward with the hands. Should the "defender" have lost concentration at this point and relaxed their forward pressure, they will be found out because the the second "attack" will breach their defence, or else the stance will fail to "re-collapse" in a shuffling manner so as to maintain correct hand positioning/control and posture. If correctly applied, the result should be that the distance between the two remains the same, the hands remain in contact, and the "defender" is always at a slight angle to the "attacker", thus having instant access to him/her for a counter measure. One thing to consider at this point, before we get into anything more complex on this subject, is that I have observed some practitioners only do the 'Poon Sau' ("rolling-hands") on one side, ie: only 'Bong Sau' on the right hand, never the left, plus it has also been my observation that some people practise 'Chi Sau' with the right leg forward, as opposed to our neutral stance ('Yi Ji Kim Yeung Ma'). In order to fully appreciate the drills that I have and will discuss, it is crucial to make sure that they are done on both sides, afterall, we don't know how we might be positioned when forced to apply such drills/concepts/techniques in real combat, so for the sake of total development, please try all the possibilities.

[flavour54]

Hi all thank you for your answers once again, perhaps I do need to examine it more closely Sihing, however for now it feels impractical and I see what you mean Highlander however it "seems" impossible for me to bring my hand to the center and extend it faster than "the ol' 1 - 2" that my opponent was throwing at me.(hmmm that does sound pretty logical still that it is somewhere close to impossible)
My body positioning seemed to turn out differently when he threw a round as his body turns sideways around me it meant his second punch was further away and I percieved it to be a practical counter to Pak and run the same arm up his arm to a palmheel strike to the jaw "pretty cool huh!."
I understand I am basically a lower primary school student in the "World" of Wing Chun.
I shall ask my Sifu for advice although I only ever use this as a last resort as I like to learn as independently as possible.
I shall print this page as a learning resource and thank you for your patience.
I would like to train with you all one day, however as I live in Australia, I do not see this happenning in the near future.

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"take the pebble from my hand"


[This message has been edited by flavour54 (edited 05-20-2000).]

[Sihing73]

flavour54,

I would just like to stress once again that there was no intended offense to you. Just like in life we all must crawl before we walk and run, Wing Chun will require some getting used to. Some things will not work until one has put in many hours of practice and even then some things will not work as well for you as for your seniors or others. The important point I always try to get across is that you must internalize the art and make it yours. In this way you will find yourself able to do many things and the art will not fail you.

I may get to visit Australia one day as there are several good Wing Chun people there I would love to meet. Although I do not percieive this happenign anythime soon.

As far as not asking you Sifu everything I think that can be a wise course of action in some respects. Your Sifu can put you on the path but you have to walk it. Still, if you need help then there is nothing wrong with asking either your Sifu or Sihings.

In any event I again wish you well in your training.

Peace,

Dave

[Highlander]

flavour54 ..... I agree with you about the 1-2 combination, but as I mentioned before, if a person is throwing rapid combinations then I wouldn't want to go to the inside at all. However, if you notice that the person is just throwing two punch combinations try this. Tan the first strike, pak the second, then strike with the heel palm strike. This would all be done with the same hand. We do a drill where we put one arm behind our backs as if it were injured and just fight with the one hand. This teaches us to flow from one technique into another without retracting our hand. When people get into the habit of alternating hands sometimes they also get into the habit of retracting the hand not being use in preparation for the next movement. In Wing Chun we learn to strike or block from where ever we are. Off the subject of Pak Sao, here are a couple of other one hand combinations I like.

1) Rt Tan inside against the left punch, Rt Hind Sao against the right punch to get to the outside, Rt inside whip to punch over the right arm and strike the face

2) Rt Biu Sao block against a right punch, rt Lop Sao grab and pull to their retracting punch (this turns them, gives you the outside, and nullifies their second punch), rt straight punch to the face. (this is my favorite against an agressive combination puncher). Also, you may have to block several punches with a Biu Sao before you find the right timing for the Lop Sao.

Anyone else got any favorites?

[flavour54]

Highlander?

Which lineage do you study as (1) was pretty different to what I do but then again I haven't trained the application as to what I can gather is huen sao.

(2) however sounds similiar to what I would do

favourite of mine is Right lap sao on first punch(if you're feeling pretty confident),
stomp on knee simultaneos to first lap sao, or alternatively punch into jaw simultaneosly with left hand and using fast combinations of my own on the blindside.
If the second punch of thiers does move that quickly, well thier off balance till I let the lap sau loose
1 - 2 is very hard to pull off under those conditions.

As much as I respect you guys that will more than likely the first and last favourite technique I ever discuss on the net as I don't really like to talk about them worldwide in such depth.


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"take the pebble from my hand"

[Bursar]

hey hullo

what part of australia are you aussies from?
i'm from newcastle.

when we practice pak sau in chi sau i personally usually tan sau with the stricking hand imediately after i have hit, so it goes pak and strike, then , chop (fak sau?) and tan. this way you can hurtle down the centre. when doing drills we usually practice the pak sau moving more forward so that you can strike over the arm (like fook sau and punch with the same arm).

do you guys laugh a lot during training?
we seem to. i know you're meant to have your mouth shut but hey "wing chun" spelt backwards is "good fun".

adios muchachos