Chi sao with the dummy

[Wingman]

I was watching Randy Williams' dummy video last weekend. In the video, he demonstrated how you can do chi sao with the dummy. He was doing a rolling hand chi sao with the dummy. He also demonstrated a few opening techniques after the rolling hand chi sao. He said that with a little ingenuity, you can do many things with the dummy.

There are a few threads about training solo, or training at home. Those guys who train solo or train at home might be able to get some ideas from the dummy video. Do you think a dummy is a good substitute for a chi sao partner?

[kj]

Originally posted by Wingman
Do you think a dummy is a good substitute for a chi sao partner?

Nope. Not even close.

It has it's utility of course. But it doesn't cut the mustard for chi sau.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

KJ: chi sao with the dummy:D :
I am hurting!Now for ground techniques you can do one of two things or both. Put the dummy horizontally on the ground and then mount it or have the dummy on top of you and chi sao with it. For greater sensitivity put ona blindfold.:)

[kj]

Originally posted by yuanfen
KJ: chi sao with the dummy:D :
I am hurting!Now for ground techniques you can do one of two things or both. Put the dummy horizontally on the ground and then mount it or have the dummy on top of you and chi sao with it. For greater sensitivity put ona blindfold.:)

ROFLOL - that wasn't exactly the ulility I had in mind, but hey, whatever turns you on. :D

Regards,
- kj

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Wingman
I was watching Randy Williams' dummy video last weekend. In the video, he demonstrated how you can do chi sao with the dummy. He was doing a rolling hand chi sao with the dummy. He also demonstrated a few opening techniques after the rolling hand chi sao. He said that with a little ingenuity, you can do many things with the dummy.

There are a few threads about training solo, or training at home. Those guys who train solo or train at home might be able to get some ideas from the dummy video. Do you think a dummy is a good substitute for a chi sao partner?

You don't need a dummy to develop good skills, but without a human partner, you never will develop a high level of Wing Chun, which depends on acquiring sensitivity.

You can learn position from the dummy, and in the absence of a human chi sao partner, you can maintain your skills by constantly working on the dummy. However, you cannot develop the sensitivity that you can with a human partner, nor will you develop the innate responses to the energy of a human partner. Take what you learn practicing on the dummy and apply it with your chi sao partners.


Regards,

[old jong]

Watch out!...Being too intimate with your dummy could change your life!...;)

[yuanfen]

Old jong- do you mean that there could be a whole new generation of dummies?

[yuanfen]

PS. There could be a book on "Chi Sao for dummies" as part of well known series on other subjects!

[black and blue]

I practise my basic change (tan sau to fook sau and back again) on the dummy's arms.

It's a simple change but doing it smoothly while keeping stick, in addition to doing it at a useful pace, is something I struggled with.

The DUMMY came to my rescue. Maybe that's what RW was talking about. (?)

I'm not advanced enough to learn the whole dummy form, but one of the things I practise on the dummy is transitions from one hand structure to another (i.e. bong to tan, jum to cao, man sau to lap etc), while keeping stick.

[old jong]

I tried chi sau with my dummy and the dummy could hit me at will....Does this mean I suck?...:eek:

[black and blue]

If you're telling us you Suck Wood, this is surely the wrong forum for you ;)

[Vyvial]

when are they coming out with
WOODEN DUMMY FOR DUMMIES?

[Wingman]

Originally posted by black and blue
I practise my basic change (tan sau to fook sau and back again) on the dummy's arms.

It's a simple change but doing it smoothly while keeping stick, in addition to doing it at a useful pace, is something I struggled with.

The DUMMY came to my rescue. Maybe that's what RW was talking about. (?)

I'm not advanced enough to learn the whole dummy form, but one of the things I practise on the dummy is transitions from one hand structure to another (i.e. bong to tan, jum to cao, man sau to lap etc), while keeping stick.

Hi black and blue,

Actually what Randy Williams meant by chi sao is the "double rolling hand" chi sao. One arm is doing the high-low fook sao and the other is doing the tan-bong sao. He aroused my curiosity when he said that he can do chi sao with the dummy. He presented chi sao with the dummy as a repetitive drill. The dan chi sao and rolling hand chi sao may seem like a repetitive drill; but it is not. For chi sao to be chi sao, your partner must provide you with an input; and you provide him with feedback.

For example in the dan chi sao, you are doing fook sao and your partner is doing tan sao. When your partner changes his tan sao to a punch (input); you reply with a chum sao (feedback). The dummy cannot provide both input and feedback. Therefore what Randy Williams is doing is not really chi sao with the dummy; but a repetitive drill which looks like chi sao.

[anerlich]

The consensus seems to be that you can use the dummy to learn and monitor the positions of chi sao, but not gain the neuromuscular feedback which is its essence.

It might help wihle you're learning the basic hands (as practice in air without a partner defintely does), but once that's done, it's unlikely to help that much to develop the attributes that chi sao is meant to develop.

Obviously, common sense rather than earth-shattering insight.

I don't like saying or being told that you "can't" or "shouldn't" do particular drills or use a piece of equipment in a certain way. If you feel the practice is valuable for whatever reason, don't let others tell you not to do it.

Jokes aside, there are good quality wrestling and grappling dummies which have been used by practitioers of those arts for many years. A (not too) heavy bag lying on the floor actually can be used for lots of valuable BJJ drills. I do about an hour of that at least once a week. Get the right tool for the job.

[reneritchie]

You can use a bamboo dummy, which has a spring-like quality to it, for solo training but nothing beats a real, thinking partner to explore changes with.

Anerlich - I watched Day of Zen last week and saw Sperry doing some stuff on grounded heavy bag. Mostly endurance squeezing and transitions from knee on stomach striking to mounted striking to opposite knee on stomach striking. His 9am to 9pm workout schedule looked grueling, especially the 1 round Thai, one round wrestling, one round BJJ stuff at night.

RR

[anerlich]

That vid's definitely on my list. I saw ZeMario win the first Aussie UFC, pretty easily in fact.

G&P on the heavy bag is definitely a tough workout. I do that with intervening transitions after say 20 punches. Elbows from mount, knees from side and front control.

The HB is surprisingly versatile. I can work a fair number of sweeps from underneath as well as stuff from top positions. Not bad for working low singles either.