New Fut Sao Buddha Hand Wing Chun Kuen Web Site By James Cama Sifu

[Sam]

New Web Site. Interactive with interviews. Still a work in progress but check it out anyway.
http://www.geocities.com/wingchunbuddhahand/index.html

[Sam]

Click on side bars for pictures

[reneritchie]

Interesting website! The interview link didn't seem to be working, though, so I'll try back at a later date.

RR

[Sam]

Cama Sifu says thanks. The site is still under construction but new pictures are going up. Check out the weapons and the iron rings 100lbs on Sifu's arms. Sifu's articles and interview will be on soon.

[FIRE HAWK]

Are there any books or are there any plains to write a book on Fut Sao Buddha Hand Wing Chun Kuen ?

[Sam]

Yes Cama Sifu is in the process of writing a book.

[Jim Roselando]

Fire Hawk,


Henry Leung put together a book a while ago that was never published. You can see pictures of Henry, Santo, Richmond, Keither, Rafael, James and others in it. I'll sell you a copy for 1,000,000 dollars! Just kidding. Watched Austin Powers last night and had a flash back! The history written in the book was almost an exact duplicate of Aou Soy Gee's book. The rest was Henry's material/photos/etc..


Regards,

[Sam]

The original book was pictures mostly of Cama Sifu and Richmond. Some of Rafael and Keither. Santo was not there and you would have been in diapers.

[reneritchie]

Nice (not) to see that Futsao is affected by the same interal bickering. How proud (also not)!

Do yourselves a favor and be a strong, unified force, especially in public.

RR

[Sam]

Rene,
Thanks for the advice but I was not bickering just stating fact. The problem is that people who supposedly are no longer involved with Fut Sao or were not there to know what went down continue to come off as authorities. They even try to tell others about the experience and quality of certain instuctors that they know nothing about. This certain individual listened to the wrong gossip and continues to spread it as fact. The problem is the person he's speaking of is the real thing and the person he's propagating is a liar. This of course is a free forum but you still have to be aware that there are consequences to your words. As per proper etiquette he and his instuctors have been told. Remember that "HANDS" always tell. Lineage is useful to tell you the quality of your ancestors not to replace the reality that we practice a "FIGHTING" art.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Rene and Sam,


Unfortunately, every WC art has their inside bickering. I guess it is unavoidable. A question about a Fut Sao book was asked and and neutral reply was made. Nobody was promoted and nobody was put down. Also, nobody was claiming to be an authority. Dont see what was so bad about that answer. I have ZERO interest in Henry's WC but the question was:

Are there any books or plans to for a book on Fut Sao?


I gave an answer and nothing more. I should have known it wasnt worth it.


Oh well, such is life. Fire Hawk! E-mail me and I will speak with you about getting you a copy!


Ciao,

[Sam]

Mr. Roselando,
You say you have ZERO interest in Henry's wc yet whenever there is a question about Buddha Hand there you are. The remarks you once made on the internet and your subsequent private email are not forgotten. I thought you represent a P... Wing Chun style or is it Roger Hagood's Southern Mantis. Oh thats right your also an expert on how much Southern Mantis training others have gotten. One of your Sifu's was chased across Chinatown and backed down from his big mouth lies in front of the Grand Master and was subsequently thrown out of the system. Your other Sifu was talked to on the phone and denied being your teacher. Are you going to continue the deceit or will you keep your business where it belongs?

[yuanfen]

Gee- is the moon aligned in a strange position for the last week or so.? Atleast three different verbal/personal skirmishes on the forum. Isnt our quota met already.?

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Joy,
Actually, I think it's "keep the moderator busy" week. :rolleyes:

Sam and Jim,
Just drop it guys. Or, per my repeated suggestion, have it out via email.

[Jim Roselando]

Sandman,


I agree with you. Lets let this old topic drop and we can all believe what we want about each other/move on. Life is too short to get stressed out over old issues. As long as we are happy with what we are doing that should be the most important thing.

Take care Sandman and Sam!


Regards,

[Sam]

Sandman and Jim Roselando,
Sounds good to me as long as we're men of our word.

[yuanfen]

Sam, Jim, Sandman- that's great.
Joy

[Hendrik]

Just very suprise to see DM Hsu Yun's as the ancestor of this system.

There is a book about the life of Hsu Yun.
Who is Hsu Yun.... Will this sage of Chan who dedicated his life equally to all living beings teaches martial art?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0881390089/qid=1037548294/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-3582504-1555830?v=glance&s=books


Will mother Teresa teaches martial art?

[Sam]

Hello Hendric, Did Kung Fu not come out of Shaolin. Were the priests not religous Buddhists. It has been documented that the venerable Hsu Yun taught chinese yoga breathing and exercises. The famous story of the master tossing or lifting the boulder proves his internal mastery.

[Hendrik]

Hello Hendric, Did Kung Fu not come out of Shaolin

Hi, Sam
Some kungfu do and some don't.



Were the priests not religous Buddhists.

How can buddhist monks not religous Buddhists?

Are you imply that Hsu Yun who is a patraich of Chan not a religous Buddhist?


It has been documented that the venerable Hsu Yun taught chinese yoga breathing and exercises.

it will be interested to know about this documentation.

I have never aware of HSu Yun taught Chinese Yoga breathing.
Even I have met a few of Hsu Yun's direct students and read thier books. furthermore,
Hai Deng of Shao Lin who at one time work under Hsu Yun at one temple also didn't mention Hsu Yun teaching Chinese Yoga breathing exercises.

Beside where and When did Hsu Yun learn Wing Chun?


If I am not wrong.
Hsu Yun wrote an article about "skin bag" meaning one should let go of the "skin bag" or body, to convert people who attached to cultivate thier body. So, Hsu Yun's teaching is about let go of the body.



The famous story of the master tossing or lifting the boulder proves his internal mastery.

Hsu Yun was known in Buddhism as the reincanation of the Eight Ground Boddhisatva.
Hsu Yun's teaching is core with Surangama sutra.
Surangama sutra teaches to have not a single thought of killing or hurting in order cleansing oneself before entering into samadhi. Otherwise, one will get into the demon state.
So, for Hsu Yun to teach martial art is a no no.



Sam, I might be wrong you might be right. But, we need the document.

As for what kind of Buddhist monk Hsu Yun was?
He was asked to escort the last empress of Qing and emperor Kuang Xui while the royal family fleet when the western's attack beijing.
He meditated and enter into samadhi for days in Thailand and was recognized by the Thai King. Those were all recorded in history.
How was this Hsu Yun related to your's Hsu Yun? No mean to against you but just for discussion.

[reneritchie]

Hey Sam,

I believe Xu Yun is Hendrik's sigung, so he may have a little insight in the matter. Personally, the story of Xu Yun teaching WCK sounds more like a classic fable (a la Ng Mui) than history.

In addition, since there seems to be so many Fut Sao histories (to sum, the first I encountered, I think from a student of Cama sifu if memory serves, was that it was the Leung family system from Leung Bik. Then Jim presented Barbalace sifu's version saying it came from Xu Yun. Third, Ken Fish was told it came from Fung Siu-Ching, and insisted he'd confirmed this with Leung sifu's writings in China. Then, Barbalace sifu was informed it wasn't from Xu Yun but from Leung sifu's uncle, Leung Sang-Chang. Now another student of Cama sifu is promoting the Xu Yun story. Last, another student insisted it was really from Chan Wah-Shun), it's probably best to treat them all with some academic detachment until more corroboration is possible.

Hopefully Leung sifu will one day get all his students together in one room and at the same time get them all on the same page, as one family.

RR

[scuba steve]

Hummm....

Perhaps this is a long lost sister branch of Hung Fa Yi?

[Switch to Yoda voice] "There is another."

Has the Shaolin story in it.
Has a buddhist monk story in it.
Has Buddhism tied into it.

Fighting Monks? Isn't that an oxymoron?
Especially Fighting Buddhist Monks?

[queue up Sandler's Green Berets]

Silver beads around their necks..
They are some of Chan's best.
100 buddhists will try today,
But only 3 get the Chan Buddhist Shaolin Fighting Monks Beret!

Where is Zopa when we need him?

Perhaps you all have a little "speck of dust" within you.

Hung Fa Yi meets Buddha Hand
[queue up Thomas Dolby song]
"She blinded me with SCIENCE!"

Yeah it's rambling, but I breathlessly await the latest all caps missive from Tap Man and the R**** W******* posse.

[Sam]

Check out this old article one of the first to come out on mainland Wing Chun. http://www.geocities.com/wingchunbuddhahand/ARTICLE2.html

[t_niehoff]

Hi Sam,

Sam wrote:

Check out this old article one of the first to come out on mainland Wing Chun.
----------------

Is Fut Sao WCK practiced in "mainland" China? What is your criterion for something to be "mainland" WCK?

Thanks,

Terence

[Sam]

The lineage is not Yip Man. It is Shaolin which spread through Red Boat, Royal family, and village. Leung Chi Man (Henry Leung) learned the art from Ghao Jhi Fut Sao in Canton. The differences are in the Hei Gung, Siu Baat Gwa footworks, and tork powers.

[t_niehoff]

Hi Sam,

I asked: What is your criterion for something to be "mainland" WCK?

And you responded: The lineage is not Yip Man. It is Shaolin which spread through Red Boat, Royal family, and village. Leung Chi Man (Henry Leung) learned the art from Ghao Jhi Fut Sao in Canton. The differences are in the Hei Gung, Siu Baat Gwa footworks, and tork powers. (Sam)
------------------

Are you suggesting anything not descending from "Yip Man" is "mainland" WCK? The Yip Man lineage too claims its origins in Shaolin (Ng Mui), spreading through the Red Boat (Wong Wah Bo), and village (Foshan) with Yip Man learning his WCK on the "mainland". I'm not trying to be a bother, just trying to understand the significance of your use of "mainland." (And thanks for giving me those factors that you believe to distinguish the lineages.).

Terence

[Sam]

My Sifu has told me that it is most likely that Yip Man did learn mainland Wing Chun the question is did he modify or hold back the original style? Some of his mainland students claim that Yip Man taught them a longer dummy form(300 movements), footworks and Pheonix eye fist which is part of Fut Sao Wing Chun and other mainland styles. The mainland styles as I was told are Buddhist, Royal Family, Village, Red Boat, and ancient which has been lost.

[t_niehoff]

Sam wrote:

My Sifu has told me that it is most likely that Yip Man did learn mainland Wing Chun (Sam)

Again, I'm confused by your use of the term "mainland WCK". For you is "mainland WCK" one of these "styles" that your sifu told you about? TN
-------------------

the question is did he modify or hold back the original style? (Sam)

"Original style"? TN
-------------------

Some of his mainland students claim that Yip Man taught them a longer dummy form(300 movements), footworks and Pheonix eye fist which is part of Fut Sao Wing Chun and other mainland styles. (Sam)

I'm sorry but I miss the significance of your point. From my perspective, there is curriculum (how we learn and train) and there is the art (our method or approach to fighting). Curriculum and texts (how things are taught) can, and will by necessity, change. The "styles" or lineages are, as I see it, just different persons' attempts to teach the same method. And fwiw, I've seen several Yip Man students from Hong Kong that use the "Pheonix eye fist". TN
-------------------

The mainland styles as I was told are Buddhist, Royal Family, Village, Red Boat, and ancient which has been lost. (Sam)

Am I correct that this information comes from Cama sifu through Henry Leung? I can accept this as your lineage's oral tradition. However, if you are suggesting that it is literally true then can you provide any information that substantiates the claim? TN

Thanks,

Terence

[yuanfen]

Sam said:The differences are in the Hei Gung, Siu Baat Gwa footworks, and tork powers.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sam- can you elaborate some more. We have the tyranny
of language specially in net conversations.
I do wing chun ina lineage descended from Ip Man and I dont know much about what you do. WITHOUT using the same words-
hei gung, footwork including the dummy work and torquing are
very much part of what I do. Could you make the differences a little sharper? Thanks
Yuanfen/joy chaudhuri

[S.Teebas]

Some interesting questions yuanfen, i look forward to the answers!!

[Sam]

HAND AND FOOT FORMS


Go to for pics http://www.geocities.com/wingchunbuddhahand/handfootforms.html




SUI LIN TAO



THE FIRST HAND FORM LEARNED IN THE FUT SAO SYSTEM IS CALLED SUI LIN TAO, WHICH TRANSLATES TO "THE WAY OF THE LITTLE TRANSMUTATION". THIS FORM CONTAINS THE ENTIRE ESSENCE OF THE SYSTEM IF YOU KNOW HOW TO INTERPRET IT. IT IS PERFORMED ALMOST ENTIRELY IN WHAT MAY APPEAR TO BE A UNUSUAL STANCE CALLED YEE JEE


KEEM YEUNG MA. THIS POSITION IS SIMILAR TO MANY CHI GONG POSTURES,BUT WITH THE ADDITIONAL BENEFIT OF CLOSING OFF THE LOWER GATE THROUGH PROPER BODY, LEG AND FOOT PLACEMENT. OUTWARDLY THIS FORM APPEARS SIMPLE AND EASY TO LEARN, YET WITH PROPER INSTRUCTION IT SETS A SOLID FOUNDATION FOR DEVELOPING: CORRECT BODY POSITIONING & ALINEMENT, A STRONG ROOT, HEAVY NEI GONG, AND BEGINS TO INITIATE INTERNAL/EXTERNAL TRANSMUTATION, WHILE OPENNING UP THE SMALL CIRCULATION.



SUI LIN TAO TWO MAN FORM



THE SUI LIN TAO TWO MAN FORM IS A PREARRANGED ATTACK/COUNTER ATTACK EXCHANGE. IT EMPHASIZES TECHNIQUES TAUGHT IN THE SUI LIN TAO LEVEL OF TRAINING AND IS PERFORMED IN A "LOOSE HAND"FASHION. IT DEVELOPES PROPER TECHNIQUE, FLUIDITY, RESPONSIVENESS, TIMING, ACCURACY, SENSITIVITY, AND ACCLIMATES YOU TO APPLYING TECHNIQUES WITH A LIVE PERSON WHO RESPONDS WITH YOUR MOVES.





CHAM KIU


THE SECOND FORM IS CALLED CHUM KIU AND IS TRANSLATED AS DEPRESSING BRIDGE, ALSO KNOWN AS RIDING THE HORSE. THIS FORM DEVELOPES MONKEY FOOTWORK, HORIZONTAL TORQUE, ANGLING, LOCKING GRAPPLING, SNAKE BODY, CRANE HAND, FOX DIRECTION, AND LIGHT SKILLS FOR MOI FA POLE. THIS FORM IS THE BASIS FOR THE FIGHTING CONCEPTS OF THE SYSTEM.






CHAM KIU TWO MAN FORM (ANGLING CHI NA)





THE CHUM KIU TWO MAN FORM IS THE SECOND TWO MAN FORM OF THE FUT SAO SYSTEM. THIS FORM NOT ONLY TEACHES TECHNIQUES TAUGHT AT THE CHUM KIU LEVEL OF TRAINING BUT EMPHASIZES GING POWER AND DIM MAK THEORY.






BUI GEE





THE THIRD FORM IS NAMED BUI GEE AND IS TRANSLATED AS THRUSTING OR DARTING FINGERS, IT IS ALSO KNOWN AS POISON SNAKE HAND. THIS ADVANCED FORM DEVELOPS INTERNAL GING, VERTICAL& HORIZONTAL TORQUE, YIN & YANG ENERGY:(EXPULSION/ABSORPTION, FLYING/EATING CHI), LOOSE HANDS, FA GING AND MUCH MORE.




BUI GEE TWO MAN FORM (DIM MAK POINTING)





THE TWO MAN BUI GEE FORM IS A LIVE FIGHTING FORM PERFORMED WITH A PARTNER. IT DEVELOPS GING POWER, LOOSE HANDS, REDIRECTION, SENSITIVITY, AND EMPHIZES FINGER TO FULL BODY TO ATTACK PRESSURE POINTS AND NERVE CAVITIES. A VERY ADVANCED FIGHTING FORM!





SIU BAAT GWA





THE SUI BAAT GWA TRANSLATED MEANS THE LITTLE OCTAGON. THIS EIGHT DIRECTIONAL CHI PALM CHANGE AND INVISIBILITY SET CONTAINS ANGLING, CIRCLING, SPINNING, STEALTH, AND WALKING IN CIRCLE. THIS IS AN EVASIVE INVISIBILITY SET WHICH PUTS ONE IN AN ADVANTAGEOUS POSITION FOR AN IMMEDIATE COUNTER STRIKE.





SIU BAAT GWA TWO MAN FORM (CIRCLING STEALTH INVISABILITY)


THE SIU BAAT GWA TWO MAN FORM IS THE FOURTH TWO MAN FORM OF THE FUT SAO SYSTEM. IT INCORPORATES TECHIQUES FROM ALL THE PREVIOUS LEVELS OF TRAINING AND COMBINES THEM WITH ADVANCED FOOTWORK. THE MOVEMENT PATTERNS APPLIED IN THIS FORM ALLOWS A PRACTITIONER THE ABILITY TO QUICKLY PLACE THEMSELF IN A POSITION WHERE THEIR OPPONENT IS STRUCTURELY WEAK AND CANNOT RESPOND AS EFFECTIVELY, GIVING THE PRACTITIONER A FORMIDABLE ADVANTAGE.

[t_niehoff]

Ah . . . gee, thanks . . . I guess.

Terence (still pondering what Sam's last post has to do with any of the questions posed)

[t_niehoff]

Hi "wujidude",

You wrote:

Sorry if this repeats anything you've already seen. It's information from the Fut Sao Wing Chun website at http://www.geocities.com/wingchunbuddhahand/index.html
-------------------

Did you read Joy's or my questions (the previous posts)? The cite of these website contents, by you and Sam, only restate the information we were asking questions about. TN

Terence

[reneritchie]

Er... Yip Man learned WCK in his native Foshan, which, unless there's been recent undocumented volcanic activity of massive scale, IS mainland China.

People can (and do!) say anything. I write an article saying there was, once upon a time, Three Flavor, Inverse, Ox-Cart, and Circus systems of WCK. Unless something compelling is presented, and unless there is some form of cross-checking available, its impossible to differentiate a single-sourced sincere account (which most, unfortunately, aren't) from the truckload of c0ckamamy BS foisted off on us by raging egoists. (Who still might have excellent kung-fu but shouldn't be leading any historical discussion groups).

RR

[Sam]

If you read what I wrote Renne you would see that I believe that Yip Man learned the art but may have taught it differently to different people which is according to his own students. No one is claiming to be an historian other than yourself and as far as ego's one should check ones own self before commenting on others. It funny that you state "Who still might have excellent Kung Fu....." Shouldn't that always be the criterior. I am only repeating what my Sifu was told. All the supposed history that you have spouted is still only hearsey because most of the history was oral tadition and even what was documented is questionable. Henry Leung was one of the first to publically teach since 1970 and James Cama wrote one of the first articles in 1987 Inside Kung Fu http://www.geocities.com/wingchunbuddhahand/ARTICLE1.html

[Rolling_Hand]

Sam Wrote:

No one is claiming to be an historian other than yourself and as far as ego's one should check ones own self before commenting on others. It funny that you state "Who still might have excellent Kung Fu....." Shouldn't that always be the criterior.

---------------------------------------------------------

Sam,

Well said.

Notice how you connect with the world through your eyes, ears, lips and hands.

Humm...

[S.Teebas]

HEAVY NEI GONG

What is Nei Gong? How is it practiced and what are the benifits?

[t_niehoff]

Sam wrote (responding to Rene):

All the supposed history that you have spouted is still only hearsey because most of the history was oral tadition and even what was documented is questionable.
-----------------

From my perspective, I think Rene has done an excellent job compiling, comparing, and researching the "history" of WCK. While you're correct that much of it comes in the form of oral tradition, those can still be cross-checked, form choreography can be compared and contrasted, terminology examined, and these linked with how innovations are spread, etc. to get a very good idea of what was really going on. And as far as oral tradition goes (the same with any witness reports), credibility matters. The truth doesn't change; so when persons give several accounts or keep modifying what they've said before, it doesn't establish them as particularly reliable as a source of information.

In any event, as I said on another post on a related subject, historically things get murky after just a few generations ago (before the Red Boat era). But since that time many things are fairly clear -- and some are crystal clear.

My suggestion is that if you go to public forums to spread information on your lineage of WCK (which btw I think is fine to do), IMHO it is best not to do it by "contrasting" it to other lineages (as you did with the Yip Man lineage) - either technically or historically/philosophically - unless you are prepared for the consequences (why not just say "we do this" instead of "we do this and no one else does it"? Are you an expert of both lineages?).

Perhaps if we would all just be a little more sensitive about other folks' mousetraps and not invested in proving our mousetrap is the best, that we'd all stop stubbing our toes.

Terence

[reneritchie]

Hey Sam,

You took what I wrote personally, and that was not my intent. Sometimes brevity leads to confusion, so I apologize for that. My comments were and are in general, and were addressed beyond you, and not specifically to your lineage. For some reason, some people take martial arts more personally than even religion, so I try to be very careful in that regard. Please read the following in that light:

> If you read what I wrote Renne you would see that I believe that Yip Man learned the art but may have taught it differently to different people which is according to his own students.

Yip Man learned WCK which is broadly consistent with what other branches have preserved from the Red Junks. Of course, he will have his own interpretation like anyone, (people aren't digital copying machines), but IMHO its as much mistake to think he took stuff out as to assume others didn't add things in. Personally, I think it better to just talk about your own art (if that's what you're doing) as your own art, and not compared to anyone else (if you notice, I never make comparisons with other branches, and often do not even mention them, in my articles on YKS/SN).

> No one is claiming to be an historian other than yourself

I realize you felt slighted and are lashing out, but I never claimed that (and I do enough on my own you can lash out at me for without putting words in my mouth ;)

> and as far as ego's one should check ones own self before commenting on others.

Ego is part of the psyche and not a bad thing, egotism on the other hand, and egocentricity, can be problematic. Since I practice neither Yip Man nor Fut Sao WCK, in any case, I have not attachment to it other than to offer my opinion. If you want to call that ego, it's a free country.

> It funny that you state "Who still might have excellent Kung Fu....." Shouldn't that always be the criterior.

Yup! Unfortunately, some spread stories along with their excellent kung fu, and the stories cause problems. So, I agree with you, and in fact wish it was that way.

> I am only repeating what my Sifu was told. All the supposed history that you have spouted is still only hearsey because most of the history was oral tadition and even what was documented is questionable.

Sure, but there are degrees of reliability to heresay, and exceptions to it (that was for Terence, though not a dying declaration ;). You can debate, for example, Washington's motivations during the War of Independance, but claiming he was a space alien is a more difficult case to make.

> Henry Leung was one of the first to publically teach since 1970 and James Cama wrote one of the first articles in 1987 Inside Kung Fu http://www.geocities.com/wingchunbu...d/ARTICLE1.html

First to publically teach what? And the first articles on what? WCK has been publically taught and written about since the early 1900s, and arguably before that even.

RR

[Sam]

Hello everyone. I wasn't offended and did not mean to offend anyone. My intention was not to compare my lineage to anyone else. I only repeated what has been debated for many years within the Yip Man lineage. I personally feel that any Wing Chun is only as good as it's practitioners. I dislike politics and my Sifu James Cama has been underground for over two decades. When I was speaking about Cama Sifu's article I was referring to the bringing out of an alternate origin of non Yip Man Wing Chun. Cama Sifu has always been open to converse or meet with anyone who is truly interested in Fut Sao Wing Chun. JCama108@aol.com 718 692-2281. My belief is that Fut Sao Wing Chun under James Cama Sifu is a very complete and formidable system. I have no need to search out other instructors, styles, or lineage's.