The Chinese Were Not Simpletons!!!!!!!

[Geezer]

Grendel Wrote>

LOL! Not mathematically! The Chinese, advanced in so many ways, rounded Pi to three back then. Obviously, this would screw up all the HFY formulas.

I think you forgot about the Suan Pan, just in case here's a couple of links to refresh your memory;)

http://qi-journal.com/culture.asp?-token.SearchID=Abacus

http://www.hh.schule.de/metalltechnik-didaktik/users/luetjens/abakus/china/china.htm

I think this might help you out for starters;)


(You Know They Called Him Ebeneezer Good):D

[Rolling_Hand]

Geezer,

I am personally thankful that we live together in a large WCK family even we do not drink at the same fountain of faith. The world we experience together is one world, your world, his/her world, and my world, and the problems we share are common human problems. So we can talk to together, try to understand each other, and help each other.

Rolling_Hand

[reneritchie]

Hey Sheldon,

The Chinese definately weren't simpletons. When we eat pasta, watch fireworks, play Chinese chess, enjoy Peking Opera, experience Wushu, read Sanguo or the Daodejing or the works of Qi Jigui (sp?), behold the Great Wall or the Forbidden City, or do any of a hundred different things we probably all take for granted everyday, we touch on the richness of 5000 years of Chinese culture and attainment.

They did things in their own way, within their own culture, and within the framework of their own developments. Maybe not exactly what the Romans did, or the Egyptians, or the Hebrews, or even more recent cultures like modern Europe and North America, but they did (and presumably will continue to do), some darn impressive stuff.

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

The Chinese definately weren't simpletons. When we eat pasta, watch fireworks, play Chinese chess, enjoy Peking Opera, experience Wushu, read Sanguo or the Daodejing or the works of Qi Jigui (sp?), behold the Great Wall or the Forbidden City, or do any of a hundred different things we probably all take for granted everyday, we touch on the richness of 5000 years of Chinese culture and attainment.

Amen To That:D

(The Shamen)

[Merryprankster]

*&%@*$!&%!@$*!

Pasta was NOT a Chinese innovation!!! Contrary to myth, Polo or other traders did not bring the noodle back to Europe. Pasta had been used for quite awhile in the mediterranean region, prior to these excursions.

Like many other good things, the cultures in question discovered how to make Pasta independently of each other.

We can, however, thank the Chinese for Hot Bean Paste.

This has been a public service announcement from the resident KFO foodie.

[reneritchie]

Sure. Next you'll tell me fajitas aren't just rip-offs of Pekin Duck, and Quesadeyas owe no homage to spring rolls!

[Merryprankster]

That's it. I challenge Iron Chef Sakai!!!

Ooops... I mean, Uh... Never mind.

:D

[yuanfen]

Rene- much but not all Mexican foods are built on
indigenous "Indian" tribal foundations- maize, chile, tamales,oregano, napolitos, tomatoes, etc--- see Weathorford's landmark book "Indian Givers" and its sequel to see what went from the New World to the old. No kung pau chicken without old world peanuts, no red hot curries without new world peppers,
no tomatoes in Italian cooking, bo chips in fish and chips. no "Italian" squash. no chocolate Belgian, Swiss, Dutch or otherwise....
but of course there is a swap when civilizations meet....

hamburguesas....would you like some queso on that?

And some Spanish things--- saffron etc...which the Spaniards
got via the Moors...and stuff from the wandering gypsies from India.spoces and guitar music to accompany the hamburguesas
con queso..ole!.
PS But the pulce and tequila are indigenous.

[old jong]

But the true origin of poutine is not a mystery!:cool:

here! (http://www.cs.umanitoba.ca/~gedetil/poutine.shtml)

[yuanfen]

Old Jong-I missed out! Or did I?

[reneritchie]

S: Yakudo San!

Y: Go!

S: Yes, MP seems to be preparing traditional beanpaste... I asked Sakai about it, and he said 'Of course, but I'm not worri--' Wait a minute! MP just single legged Iron Chef Nakai!!

Y: Interesting.

Doc: I would have gone with the heel pick...

Yuanfen - And what would the world have done with Ketchup!!!

[dfl]

Grendel is quite wrong about the Chinese' knowledge of pi. It is well known that Chinese mathematicians have already determined that pi is between 3.1415926 and 3.1415927 over 2000 years ago.
They didn't realize that mass increases with velocity, though, until the time of Einstein, Lorentz and Poincare. But then, neither did Newton.

[yuanfen]

Firstly, I dont know the history of pi. Grendel did not question
the greatness of Chinese civilzation, its early science nor use anything like "simpleton" in his remark despite geezer and our troll from Transamerica in residence. As happens threads take of on their own.

Cross cultural history is a very difficult thing because it is loaded with cultural bisases, over specialzation and undergeneralization skills and personal opinions.

Western mathematics really took off with "fluxions", newton and calculus- but didnt even have the concept of zero in its early days
-in greek or roman numerals. Without zero number theory has a big hole in it. The concept of zero (sunya) was part of Indian philosophy and number theory and algebra-passed on to the west via so called Arab mathematics-arabic numerals are really
Indian in origin.(The arabs called them Hindu numbers at one time)
The Chinese abacus is a marvelous invention and tool.In the right hands it can still calculate faster than some machines. But as far as number theory I dont know when the pi became known in China. In the 5th and 6th centuries there was a whole colony of Indian mathematicians and astronomers in Loyang invited by the Chinese to work on the calcuations on eclipses. Needhams exceptional multi volume magnum opus "Science and Civilization in China" should be a superb source for this discussion, if folks are serious. But it will be going far afield. Needham by the way acknowledges what i mentioned about the
Indian astronomers and mathematicians and the calculation of eclipses.
But whatever the status of comparative mathematics and the history of pi, it is absurd to imagine that folks at northern or southern shaolin used contemporary mathematical and physics theories of space and time to fashion exclusively a
single secretly developed and kept style of kung fu. Preposterous.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Firstly, I dont know the history of pi. Grendel did not question
the greatness of Chinese civilzation, its early science nor use anything like "simpleton" in his remark despite geezer and our troll from Transamerica in residence. As happens threads take of on their own.

Unlike the thread from which this statement comes, I did not issue forth on the subject without a basis that I can document. I refer those who doubt my assertion to "The Joy of Pi" by David Blatner, an eminently enjoyable excursion into the history of Pi from its various discoveries to the present. China's path to Pi are recorded therein. Historical China and modern China are to be well regarded in their contributions to mathematics.

Obviously this thread is an attempt to take my comment out of context and miscontrue its nature. Not very advanced trolling, I'd say.

Regards,

[Chango]

Grendel,
Maybe you should look at your own words when you post your signature with my name in it.

<snip>Obviously this thread is an attempt to take my comment out of context and miscontrue its nature. Not very advanced trolling, I'd say.

once again I'm asking you to remove my name and my words (taken out of context I might add) out of your signature. It serves no purpose other then to take a cheap shot at me.


Chango

[yuanfen]

What in the world is Chango's post about?
An honest query.

[Geezer]

Grendel Wrote>

I think Zhuge Liang is pulling our collective legs. How did an ancient Chinese tong lay claim to calculus and nanotechnology in formulating its contribution to Wing Chun? Why is there no record of this in China? Why is there no manifestation of similar science in other Kung Fu families? Why does my cat sleep all day? Was there a Schroedinger Wong, Einstein Tse, or Isaac Nu Ton of the Manchu period?

So in YOU'RE completely OPEN world there are no secrets Inspector Clueso;)

Grendel Wrote>

Obviously this thread is an attempt to take my comment out of context and miscontrue its nature. Not very advanced trolling, I'd say.

Grendels Signature>

Grendel

"Sure there have been injuries and deaths in boxing - but none of them serious." - Alan Minter, Boxer

"keep in mind we are semetricle beings...." "It is clear that we have a limited form of comunitcation. (sic)-- Chango, presenting HFY 'science'

So what are you doing with Chango's comment:confused:

You're quite happy to give it the Bunny, but when something is said/written about yourself you don't like it:confused:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yuanfen Wrote>

But whatever the status of comparative mathematics and the history of pi, it is absurd to imagine that folks at northern or southern shaolin used contemporary mathematical and physics theories of space and time to fashion exclusively a

You've had an offer(free I might add) made to you, God knows how many times and still you have turned down the chance.
Answer me this who really is the Troll:confused:, when you test drive a car you don't ask someone else to do it for you, do you:confused:
I can understand if you ask someone else for their opionon on a car you may like, but it doesn't mean you would have the same experience as that person if you drove that car.


Me Ol China:D

[yuanfen]

Geezer asks yuanfen:
You've had an offer(free I might add) made to you, God knows how many times and still you have turned down the chance.
Answer me this who really is the Troll, when you test drive a car you don't ask someone else to do it for you, do you
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The chief troll is the HFY booster RH- the others are a sifu sez chorus- same HFY words/claims of 1. no common language.
2. so scientific- cant really explain it but it is better older more original deeper than Yip Man's wing chun(shame on you
shades of early TWC claims).

On testing cars- you make judgements on what to test drive-
avoiding sales talk- I wouldnt test drive a YUGO for instance-
thank you.

yuanfen

[Geezer]

Yuafen Wrote>

On testing cars- you make judgements on what to test drive-I wouldnt test drive a YUGO for instance-
thank you.

When I moved here I bought a Chevy then about a year ago, I thought I was getting a great deal on a Dodge, two weeks ago I bought another Chevy and got rid of the piece of Sh!tte Dodge.
Now a girl at work advised me at the time not to buy the Dodge but I thought "hey" I'm getting a good deal here.
One of the worst mistakes I ever made, but without getting that experience I wouldn't have the knowledge to never buy a Dodge again.
How can you make comments or judgements on things you've never experienced:confused:

Me Ol China;)

[joy chaudhuri]

Geezer asks:How can you make comments or judgements on things you've never experienced
----------------------------------------------------------------------Reasonable and knowledgeable people do it on many occasions-
on Aids, Leprosy, Filaria, kalazar,Crack, LSD, death,TKD,pyramid scheme sales pitches, religious doorbell ringing, mortgage sales phone calls,telemarketing etc- besides, my RR engine aint broke.

BTW- the amateur trolling aspect on this thead as your thread title suggests(Chinese arent simpletons or close) is within the definition of trolling- taunting misrepresentation sans development of a point of view))

[reneritchie]

Sheldon,

Does this mean we won't see you styling down the street in a Viper any time soon? Holding out for the new Bond Astin, aren't you? 8P

RR (Not to be confused with Yuanfen's Royce (nor Helio's Royce ;) but more a Rolls Canardly).

[Geezer]

Sheldon Wrote>


How can you make comments or judgements on things you've never experienced

Yuanfen/Joy Wrote>

Reasonable and knowledgeable people do it on many occasions-on Aids, Leprosy, Filaria, kalazar,Crack, LSD, death,TKD,pyramid scheme sales pitches, religious doorbell ringing, mortgage sales phone calls,telemarketing etc- besides, my RR engine aint broke.

So you just woke up one morning and made the decision to learn WCK without first doing some hands on research:confused:

How did you come to the decision to learn from your Sifu:confused:

How did you come to the decision to live where you do:confused:

Your telling me that you base all of you're decisions to do what you do by reading about it, or talking to other people.:confused:

If you have students is this what you teach to them, to ignore the hands on approach.(If you take offence to this question or find it to be part of a flame just ignore it )

Me Ol China

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

Does this mean we won't see you styling down the street in a Viper any time soon? Holding out for the new Bond Astin, aren't you?

Dodge no, even though Dodge did buy Lambo, now the Aston Martin was bought by Ford some time ago, Hmmm maybe.

I would say my first choice would be the TVR, Vvvvrrrrrooooommmm if I had the money.

http://www.tvr-eng.co.uk/tvr.htm


:D

[reneritchie]

Cool! Maybe I'll finally get that McLaren F1 and we can race down the English countryside, careful as always for sheep crossings! LOL!

[Geezer]

ReneWrote>

Cool! Maybe I'll finally get that McLaren F1 and we can race down the English countryside, careful as always for sheep crossings! LOL!

I wouldn't stand a chance against the F1 unless I use "Mister Miracles Mother Box":D

P.S.It's the Welsh that like the sheep:D

Wow , edrych ar hynny dafad

P.P.S.My Grandmother was from Mold;)

[joy chaudhuri]

So you just woke up one morning and made the decision to learn WCK without first doing some hands on research

((Question and answer time? Not really- already had a well developed sense of self defense and wing chun theory as it came acrross seemed intriguing and fairly clear- as HFY does not- to me anyway. You are welcome to your views.))

How did you come to the decision to learn from your Sifu

((Exercised judgemental sense- called "tacit knowledge" thats important even in science..read, thought, visited every major school of every style in Southern Arizona, went to many tournaments to see different styles...I was looking for something effective for my kids-not me.No sales pitches were involved. But then yuanfen(look it up)... when the student is ready, the teacher will come- and serendipity- good fortune. If I lived in Burbank South Dakota I wouldnt be in wing chun. I didnt make a mistake))

How did you come to the decision to live where you do
((Feng shui? And a red hibiscus bloomed at the right time))

Your telling me that you base all of you're decisions to do what you do by reading about it, or talking to other people.

((Typical misrepresentation or you read poorly- I didnt say that- intelligence and reasoning and accumulated experience and developed quality of judgement...decision making is a complex process))

If you have students is this what you teach to them, to ignore the hands on approach.(If you take offence to this question or find it to be part of a flame just ignore it )

((Not offended- amused at the poor attempt at creating a straw man argument. The poverty of the logic appears to make your product even more suspect. Thanks- I will pass on the mortgage sales, MCI sales, Hyundai offer, and on HFY))

[Geezer]

Yuafen/Joy Wrote>

visited every major school of every style in Southern Arizona, went to many tournaments to see different styles...I was looking for something effective for my kids-not me.

Wallah, so you do believe in having that hands on approach :D

Yuanfen/Joy Wrote>

Thanks- I will pass on the mortgage sales, MCI sales, Hyundai offer, and on HFY

So what are you still doing here then, like I said before for a man completely uninterested by HFY, you sure do post allot about it.:confused:

Me Ol China

[joy chaudhuri]

Geezer asks:So what are you still doing here then, like I said before for a man completely uninterested by HFY, you sure do post a lot about it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why? Its a wing chun list-not a HFY sales/spamming list. Simple.
As for walla- I posted comments on the more outrageous claims from that quarter as well as well. BTW- not just me. There is considerable skepticism on Garret Gee's newly revealed
hithero secret scientific, philosophically pure, comparatively superior system
on this list and elsewhere as well.
We have pretty good discussions on TWC after the initial arrogance about superior-inferior, traditional-modified discussions settled down. Not a bad precedent to follow. Put the arrogance on hold.

[Train]

Hi Joy

I don't post much on this forum and i mainly enjoy reading people's views on wing chun. I niticed that you like to put your opinoins on to people. Is it becuase a lot of people are interested in HFY and you can't stand the thought of it? I'm just wondering if you ever met anyone that's from the HFY lineage?? why don't you see what their all about? or what about chi sau? why not have a friendly chi sau match at their school and check out thier skills. I think talk is cheap. If you don't agree with something talk with your hands. Do it the old school way.

[Geezer]

Sheldon Wrote>

How can you make comments or judgements on things you've never experienced

Yuanfen/Joy Wrote>

Reasonable and knowledgeable people do it on many occasions-on Aids, Leprosy, Filaria, kalazar,Crack, LSD, death,TKD,pyramid scheme sales pitches, religious doorbell ringing, mortgage sales phone calls,telemarketing etc- besides, my RR engine aint broke.

Sheldon Wrote>

So you just woke up one morning and made the decision to learn WCK without first doing some hands on research

Yuanfen/Joy Wrote>

read, thought, visited every major school of every style in Southern Arizona, went to many tournaments to see different styles

Sheldon Wrote>

Wallah, so you do believe in having that hands on approach

Yuanfen/Joy Wrote>

There is considerable skepticism on Garret Gee's newly revealed hithero secret scientific, philosophically pure, comparatively superior system on this list and elsewhere as well.

This is where you lose me, from the second quote, you do believe in seeing things first hand.
But by your third quote, you have no intention in ever seeing HFY for yourself, you would prefer to just go by hear-say and use that as your arguement.:confused:

[planetwc]

You ask why Joy hasn't taken up the free offer on HFY.

The answer is, because he still hasn't heard anything COMPELLING enough to warrant spending the time doing so.

The VTM, Meng Sifu, Lowenhagen Sifu et al have written quite a lot of material on why HFY is to them the proto Wing Chun SYSTEM. Some of them and their students have posted their "facts" about how HFY is "scientific", has a conceptual base that is SO complex that it is literally impossible to explain in written form, etc. etc.

There has been a whole raft of discussion around this topic, which has resulted in many people not seeing enough detail to back up the facts, claims or mere opinions.

One of the hallmarks of Wing Chun has been it's simplicity and straightforward approach. Here you have a group of individuals already schooled in one lineage of Wing Chun who state that they have no way to do a comparison of what they previously (or may still do) with HFY.

This forum is a Wing Chun discussion forum and as such it's purpose is just that for discussion. The HFY folks have every right to offer their views and opinions just as we all do. And everyone else has the right to question those opinions as well.

While the proof may ultimately be in the pudding (Face to Face, hands on), if you don't find the current information from someone compelling enough you won't go to the next level of a "test drive" simply because it isn't compelling or important enough to do so.

You can go to just about EVERY car dealer and test every model of car. Do you? They are all automobiles. Yet you don't. Because some cars are simply not interesting enough for you to spend time doing it. Yet test driving cars is free isn't it?

The HFY folks have made some bold claims about their system in a written form and people have called on them to extrapolate more and to many, they have not come through.

It's as simple as that. It hasn't provided enough "proof" if you like to take things to the next level of interest.

It doesn't make the HFY guys wrong or Joy wrong. It simply is what it is.

For Joy, the burden of proof on Hung Fa Yi's written word hasn't been met yet. And until it is, it isn't sufficiently interesting to drive down to the local dealership for that free test drive. It doesn't nullify Joy's right to respond to posts here on the topic.

regards,

David Williams

[yuanfen]

Plan WC: Exactly. Despite Geezers questions about them, I dont use either a sifu or students to buttress my statement of disinterest in listening to auto sales talk (possibly pre owned autos). At various levels, I have discussed freely without marketing slams different kinds of wc with folks on and off list whose stances and motions are quite different than mine and I have met practitiomers from diverse backgrounds-interesting discussions
without the sarcasms and attempted put downs by about three fourths of the HFy posters.
Pasing through was more clear on the kiu sao- chi sao relationship- I pointed out that chum kiu is full of bridge work and bridge positioning work when done well-just look at even the name kiu.m Perhaps Jeremy without sarcasm or verbosity in simple English to explain by begiining with basic things- how do you stand, move and turn. English is a common enough language...
evn though its my third or possibly fourth language.
Despite the chorus of repeated spamming of the same vague material-on this list-
there is no basis for assuming that HFY is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
This thread was started by geezer and Co on the alleged criticism
of Chinese contributions. Obviously geezer dropped that discussion to simply spam the same material on HFY.
Gotta run. Taxi service.

[Rolling_Hand]

--Hi Joy

I don't post much on this forum and i mainly enjoy reading people's views on wing chun. I niticed that you like to put your opinoins on to people. Is it becuase a lot of people are interested in HFY and you can't stand the thought of it? I'm just wondering if you ever met anyone that's from the HFY lineage?? why don't you see what their all about? or what about chi sau? why not have a friendly chi sau match at their school and check out thier skills. I think talk is cheap. If you don't agree with something talk with your hands. Do it the old school way.--Train

---------------------------------------------------------------

Many Augustine Fong's students are currently studying HFYWCK under Sifu Richard's school. Does this have anything to do with Yuanfen's attidude on this issue?

[yuanfen]

Regarding Train's post: Dont know who Train is- didnt see his post. I do talk with my hands when needed in the wing chun tradition= what's the current need? Zilch.

RH- and his typical insinuating trolling: Fong's own students are in Tucson 110 miles away from Chandler. He does NOT have a chain of schools.
His core students are well known-none are in Chandler.
. Master Fong is careful as to who he calls his real students- see his own statement on his website. So why divert the discussion to a party not part of this conversation. But that is RH for you.

My attitude? Best to focus on and improve your own RH or you may miss the Tao despite the wild bird.. I dont speak for Master Fong, and I am not in Tucson. This eagle after learning how to fly is on his own.Nothing wrong with it. I love the art- I generally chase away casual inquirers. I am also careful about who I call my student. A very traditional craftsman's notion.

And unlike RH I dont do anonymous trolling anytime anywhere.So RH-good luck in the lonely holes you dig for yourself. Try the sunlight -might improve your disposition if not your health.

[Rolling_Hand]

--My attitude? Best to focus on and improve your own RH or you may miss the Tao despite the wild bird.. I dont speak for Master Fong, and I am not in Tucson. This eagle after learning how to fly is on his own.Nothing wrong with it. I love the art- I generally chase away casual inquirers. I am also careful about who I call my student. A very traditional craftsman's notion.

And unlike RH I dont do anonymous trolling anytime anywhere.So RH-good luck in the lonely holes you dig for yourself. Try the sunlight -might improve your disposition if not your health.--Yuanfen

--------------------------------------------------------------

The point is not to make a self-conscious statement about yourself, but to make your world available to others.

[Chango]

I find it quite amusing that Joy feels very much compelled to jump in on every HFY post and make his misguided statements and draw his conclusions from a second hand point of view. Yet he does not feel compelled to go see for his self. For free I might add! This is a clear case of having nothing more then internet kung fu skills. Judging by how my Sidai R. Loewnehagen's last post and Joy's lack of response he seems to suffer from alligator/humming bird disease. For those not familar with the condition the first symptom is having the mouth of a alligator with only the a$$ of a humming bird to back it up! LOL! Joy I hope you are feeling better. :D

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Chango
I find it quite amusing that Joy feels very much compelled to jump in on every HFY post and make his misguided statements and draw his conclusions from a second hand point of view.
Hi Chango,

I can understand the word "Simpletons" in the thread title led you to believe that it was about Hung Fi Yi, but really, you need to read Joy's posts more closely. His critical (not "criticizing, "look the word up) comments are enlightening if you let them be. He is trying to give the insights of his over 25 years of Wing Chun experience to you, and he's not charging you for it. Sometimes comments which hurt are not intended to do so. I think he really cares about helping you to see the truth.

As far as Loewnehagen's (sic) threats and youthful hijinks, that is just indicative of his insecurity. If he lives long enough and continues the study of Wing Chun, he'll grow out of it.

Regards,

[Chango]

Hello David You make a interesting point here.

<snip>You can go to just about EVERY car dealer and test every model of car. Do you? They are all automobiles. Yet you don't. Because some cars are simply not interesting enough for you to spend time doing it. Yet test driving cars is free isn't it?

But if you complain how bad a car rides or it's lack of handling every chance you get only begs the question "did you test drive it?" and when the answer comes back as "no I did not want to" espeacially when offered speaks not only on ignorance. But one's refusual to learn leans to the side of stupidity. Do you see my point?

<snip>For Joy, the burden of proof on Hung Fa Yi's written word hasn't been met yet. And until it is, it isn't sufficiently interesting to drive down to the local dealership for that free test drive. It doesn't nullify Joy's right to respond to posts here on the topic.

No it does not nullify his right to respond how ever it speaks only on the quality of the level of information that he has on the topic. Espeacially when the "HFY people" says time and time again that this information should be experienced first hand other wise it would not be totally understood. You say we have not provided "the burden of proof via the written word" Didn't we say that the written word would not complete our ideas from the start? weather you chalk it up to our lack of comunication skills or if you assume we are unwilling or in some extreme claims it is part of our "marketing plan." (yeah show up and we brain wash you OOOHHH! I don't know Earl but I'm scarrred!) Non the less we still maintain that no matter how well you think you might understand HFY via the written word until you have a personal experience face to face it still cannot be fully grasp. I hope this clears some of the confusion.

Saat geng sau
;)

[Chango]

Here we go again :)

<snip>I can understand the word "Simpletons" in the thread title led you to believe that it was about Hung Fi Yi, but really, you need to read Joy's posts more closely. His critical (not "criticizing, "look the word up) comments are enlightening if you let them be.

Grendel I'm proud of you did you come up with this one yourself?
You seem to ask plenty of questions and having them explained in many ways. You then complain that our words are not a satisfactory explination still ignoring the fact that we tell you time and time again to come and see for yourself! This information must be experienced first hand. "Simpleton" I wonder where that finger points now Grendel?!


<snip>He is trying to give the insights of his over 25 years of Wing Chun experience to you, and he's not charging you for it. Sometimes comments which hurt are not intended to do so. I think he really cares about helping you to see the truth.

Then I'm getting exactly my money's worth here. Who's truth? Some one who does not know what he is talking about? some one who refuses to check something out first hand but feels compelled to give a socalled expert opinion? Yeah I can see where I'm paying exactly the correct amount for this. No let me correct that I should be paid to listen to such trash. It is laid out very clear for him either put up or shut up. The ball is in his court the proof is in his actions. No need for a competition or even a test of skills we have offered him a oppertunity to experience HFY on our dime yet he refuses. The fact that he refuses demonstrates the fact that he has a closed mind and chooses to remain ignorant about this system.


<snip>As far as Loewnehagen's (sic) threats and youthful hijinks, that is just indicative of his insecurity. If he lives long enough and continues the study of Wing Chun, he'll grow out of it.

We are discussing a martial art. If you continue to challenge some one for the sake of challenging them. It only stands to reason that someone will ask you to step up and qualify your skill. But of course you probrably do not strike when you train. I suppose you recieve a Wing Chun "time out" where you tell each other how it upsets you when you loose your structure or how it make you feel like your needs aren't being met when you loose your position? I'm sorry Grendel but we are not discussing ballet! this is a Martial art if you talk trash about someone or thier
lineage it only stands to reason that someone is going to call you on it. I think you have been watching a little to much lifetime network my friend ROLOL!

:D

[cha kuen]

The chinese were not simple people and they still aren't today!

=]

kung fu books (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=taichimaster06&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25)

[kj]

Originally posted by Grendel
... you need to read Joy's posts more closely. His critical (not "criticizing, "look the word up) comments are enlightening if you let them be. He is trying to give the insights of his over 25 years of Wing Chun experience to you, and he's not charging you for it. Sometimes comments which hurt are not intended to do so. I think he really cares about helping you to see the truth.

Good on you Grendel for bringing this up. A fleeting moment of understanding and sensitivity in the din is more than a little refreshing.

You've hit on something that rings with me in the larger scheme of things. It is the other half of dialog. That being the archaic and unpopular notion of actually and actively "listening" to other human beings.

Which triggers my own small non-denominational rant, for which I offer no apologies. Ranting seems the "in" and perfectly acceptable thing to do, so perhaps it's fairly my turn ...

If folks would spend half as much time trying to understand each other as they do in being reactive and fighting battles of words, I gander the productive exchange would significantly increase. Perhaps then we could all benefit.

From a reader's perspective, it truly sucks seeing threads like this over and over and over and over ... and over and over again. It's a lot like watching hamsters, actually. It's also consistent with Einstein's definition of insanity.

And if for whatever reason we can't listen, understand, or engage in any sort of productive dialog, couldn't we just agree to shut up?

No need or fruit in naming names; it would only incite reactive defenses in the best case. But wouldn't it be nice if the usual suspects would try on the shoe to see for themselves if it fits?

Fire away; I suck too, I know. And I'm a killjoy. I've just committed the sin I'm decrying against. Not to mention that my time would have been better invested in practice than in writing this. Feel free to help out folks, I'm just getting warmed up.

Rant off.

While it may not seem so, those who are attentive may realize this was actually intended to be a positive post, despite the ragged edges of my frustration showing. I realize already I've obfuscated my own point, and will do my best to hit the mark next time.

Y'all have a nice day now. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Geezer]

Grendel Wrote>

you need to read Joy's posts more closely. His critical (not "criticizing, "look the word up) comments are enlightening if you let them be. He is trying to give the insights of his over 25 years of Wing Chun experience to you, and he's not charging you for it. Sometimes comments which hurt are not intended to do so. I think he really cares about helping you to see the truth.


So how do you explain this then:confused:,

Sheldon Wrote>

How can you make comments or judgements on things you've never experienced



Yuanfen/Joy Wrote>

Reasonable and knowledgeable people do it on many occasions-on Aids, Leprosy, Filaria, kalazar,Crack, LSD, death,TKD,pyramid scheme sales pitches, religious doorbell ringing, mortgage sales phone calls,telemarketing etc- besides, my RR engine aint broke.



Sheldon Wrote>

So you just woke up one morning and made the decision to learn WCK without first doing some hands on research



Yuanfen/Joy Wrote>

read, thought, visited every major school of every style in Southern Arizona, went to many tournaments to see different styles



Sheldon Wrote>

Wallah, so you do believe in having that hands on approach



Yuanfen/Joy Wrote>

There is considerable skepticism on Garret Gee's newly revealed hithero secret scientific, philosophically pure, comparatively superior system on this list and elsewhere as well.


Sheldon Wrote>

This is where you lose me, from the second quote, you do believe in seeing things first hand.
But by your third quote, you have no intention in ever seeing HFY for yourself, you would prefer to just go by hear-say and use that as your arguement.:confused:


I tried but Yuanfen/Joy seems to go round in circles, he trains WCK, he teaches WCK "to a select few" and he lives WCK but is not willing to go see for himself some fairley new school that's opened up just down the road:confused:

[kj]

<sigh> :(

[taltos]

Thank you, kj, for stepping up here and taking the high ground. I know it wasn't for accolades, but it deserves notation that you are both trying to smooth things over and also (gasp) "practicing what you preach." I appreciate the example you're setting.

-Levi

[reneritchie]

KJ once again pak sao's the %@$! out of correctness.

Once again, to the nausea of many I assume, how you treat people who disagree with you is the surest sign of your true character. Please remember, especially if you have sidaimui or todaisuen on these boards, to set an example.

RR