Judo Vs. BJJ

[Cipher]

Hehe, not style Vs. style but what are the main differences between JJ/BJJ and Judo. I've heard that the Gracies actualy leanred Judo from the start so BJJ is really hybrid Judo.

[Ford Prefect]

BJJ focusses on the newaza (ground techniques) of Judo.

Judo focusses on the tachi-waza (throws).

Because of this, a bjj'er is generally better than Judoka on the ground and a Judoka is generally better than a bjj'er while standing.

[Asia]

Ford,

You are forgetting about Kosen Judo.

[Merryprankster]

No he's not. It's just so rare there's almost no point in discussing it.

I'd also point out that it's a format, not a style, per se, and I also don't know what submissions are legal...

[Asia]

MP,

Kosen is NOT rare. (Just do a search on google and see how many hit you get for such a RARE art.)It is actually growing as an art as more pple are want to do newaza and don't want the BJJ propoganda BS.

And KOSEN is considered a difference STYLE of judo developed from the orthodock Kodokan.

[Merryprankster]

Plenty of clubs out there, I agree. Compared to Olympic/Kodokan style clubs? Not that many. I can't think of a single club in the DC area that is Kosen, I can think of three olympic style ones. The only Kosen guy I know did it in Japan. Nice fellow. Good guard passing skills.

Bottom line is that I'm willing to bet 90% of the clubs out there are Olympic/Kodokan.

You want to define Kosen as a style, be my guest. It originated when (as I understand it) certain colleges refused to change their competition format to match the Kodokan at some past point in Judo history, and Kosen was born. That's the way the Kosen guy I know outlined it anyhoo.

That makes it more like, say, Folkstyle and Freestyle wrestling, than the difference between say, Sambo and Judo.

[Asia]

MP,

Like alot of things the US is just catching on. There are plenty of Kosen clubs on this side of the water. And Kosen is big in Japan. But I mostly stuck to Kodokan when I was there. Kodokan was the first org of Judo so of course most of the clubs would be Kodokan clubs. And Kosen IS recongnized at a STYLE not me defining it but just how it is.


Exert:

In 1914, the All Japan Special High School championships were started at Kyoto Imperial University. These championships emphasized the trend toward newaza or grappling techniques, and the schools that participated became so proficient at this approach that they earned for it the name "Kosen Judo" or grappling Judo. This form of Judo was becoming so predominant that by 1925 Kano began to see throwing techniques as disappearing from the syllabus of effective Judo skills. Judo rules were changed to specifically require that all techniques had to begin from a tachi waza or standing throwing technique, and that further, if a competitor pulled his opponent down without such an effort, the opponent would be declared the automatic winner. However, Kano understood the proficiency of Kosen Judo, and saw a need for specialists to be encouraged in its development, and so the Seven Universities Tournament, which continues in Japan to this day, has been exempt from this 1925 Kodokan rule change. The Kosen Judo students represented an elite, and it was considered shameful to tap or declare maitta, surrender. A choke or an armbar would have to continue to its inevitable conclusion. (3) Those modern derivatives of Judo, Gracie Ju Jitsu and Sambo, show the effect of both this technical approach and attitude, which is not remarkable since the founding instructors of both styles learned Judo during this pre-1925 period.

[Merryprankster]

P.S.


There's propaganda in any art. I bear you no animosity and quite frankly find your posts on the various boards informative and useful. On the other hand, I don't really understand your need to single out BJJ as having "propaganda BS," when that's a function of people and not a style.

Every art teaches you how to "Defeat larger, stronger opponents, use their force against them, and protect yourself from 12 ft tall mutant attackers with 5 limbs!" :D

I could do without the "Billboard Tough Guys," who look like walking advertisements, wear fight gear like it's regular clothing, and think a shaved head, a goatee, and a couple of BJJ tats make them tough--even as "Joe White Belt!"

On the other hand, other arts could do without the Mullets and the fat guys screaming when they break boards

It's all good...

[Ford Prefect]

I'll refrain from discussing Kosen Judo since the point is a bit ridiculous.

[Merryprankster]

I see your point about Kosen. I still find it more analogous to free vs folk, but that's pretty much just semantics. There is something called Kosen out there that is more heavily groundwork oriented--that, we'll both agree with.

I certainly did look at it from a U.S.-centric viewpoint, but given my geographic location, I think that's understandable.

Cipher is in Indiana, I might point out. He might as well go in search of Looed Chicken's Feet or Hot and Spicy tripe at the local Dim Sum house...

Of course, that doesn't really change anything.

[Asia]

don't really understand your need to single out BJJ as having "propaganda BS," when that's a function of people and not a style.

I know the propaganda comes from the pple not the STYLE but hell you got to start somewhere!!!:D

BTW I don't single out BJJ. It is just one of my favorite targets. Last week I was ****ing of a bunch of Koga Ninjas who threatend to show me what a REAL ninja cult can do!!!!:eek:

[Merryprankster]

Oh, I dunno. You could start with Rorian trying to sue everybody in his family who used the name "gracie" in their advertisements :D

Or we start the "pure water argument...." which sounds a lot like the stupid lineage wars, come to think of it.

[Cipher]

So is it common for a Judo place to train both newaza and tachi-waza?

So what do you guys think about this (http://www.iglou.com/toshi/) ? It is one of two Judo places around were I live. I don't really know much about it but I am planning on swinging by in one day in the next few weeks. The main teacher there looks like is has some pretty good experience. Anyone know John Wortley? It sounds really familiar to me but I can't place were I heard it from. Thanks for the info.

[Merryprankster]

Yes. Even in Olympic/Kodokan Judo, you will be exposed to various chokes, pins and locks. While you will probably not be as good at groundwork as somebody who's spent a similar amount of time in BJJ, you will have a working knowledge of matwork.

[Former castleva]

Basically every single style of judo should be the same,there are no actual differences in application.No matter where you go...
Unlike in karate as an example.
Just my opinion based on the claims of practitioners.

[SevenStar]

there will be differences from school to school as each will have preferences. My club loves matwork, so we do a lot of it. many clubs spend minimal time on groundwork, and there are differences in application. people will change grips, stepping, etc. to make the throw more comfortable to them.

[ShaolinTiger00]

it's a format, not a style, per se,

This sums up the thread.

My judo club divides the time betwen standing throws and groundwork almost 50-50, depending on who is instructing the class. My club is a highly international club and we have players from Germany, Brazil, Poland, Japan, Italy, France. and many others who rotate in as they come into Washington D.C. for various reasons.
Groundwork randori (newaza) is identical to bjj in that it doesn't stop until someone is submitted. Judo does not have joint locks on the legs. Since many judoka are cross trained in sambo and bjj these days if your partner agrees they can be permitted on individual circumstances.

Contrary to popular belief, judo does not neglect the ground game. Judoka think of it as the second axle to a car. without it the vehicle won't go anywhere. A successful throw puts you in control and position for successful groundwork.
However in judo competition, the rules force players on the ground to be swift and furious or else they will be restarted from their feet.


BJJ is superior on the ground because they spend so much time training groundwork. It is probably safe to say that 3/4 of bjj techniques come from judo. BJJ players have twice the time and analysis of these techniques!

BJJ is an absorbing style. They take what they like and incorporate it into their art.

[SevenStar]

"Groundwork randori (newaza) is identical to bjj in that it doesn't stop until someone is submitted."

that's another difference you will find in judo. not all clubs go for the submission. some go for pins and positional dominance.


"Judo does not have joint locks on the legs."

There is one. you can't use it in competition though. I can't think of the name, but I think it's listed on judo info - I'll check.

[Cipher]

It makes a lot of sense to me to be good at throwing the person and then good at finishing them off on the ground.

So any thoughts on www.iglou.com/toshi ?

I can see that a lot of it will depend on what the place foucuses on more. One may tend to throw more than doing groud work and one may do more ground work than throws. I would think that now days any Judo place would make sure to have good strong ground work training, but who knows.

What site is the authorita on Judo?

Thanks again for the info.

[SevenStar]

www.judoinfo.com

[SevenStar]

the leg lock I was referring to is ashi garami. However, I just did a search and found others:

ASHI-GARAMI (Entangled Leg Lock)
ASHI-KANNUKI (Leg Bolt Lock)
HIZA-HISHIGI (Knee Crush)
HIZA-TORI-GARAMI (Entwined Legs Lock)
KATA-ASHI-HISHIGI (Single Leg Crush)
RYO-ASHI-HISHIGI (Double Leg Crush)
TATE-SHIHO-HIZA-HISHIGI (Lengthwise Four Quarters Knee Crush)

[SevenStar]

check this out.

http://www.bstkd.com/JudoHistory/HistoryNine.htm

[ShaolinTiger00]

7*

As you probably alredy knew, judo has leg locks but does not use them in shiai (competiton)and finding a judoka who teaches them is rare indeed. since they haven't ben part of the kodokan training since before WWII although I'm sure they're are some who kept it alive (the sambo/ judo connection was probably key in this)

[SevenStar]

I think that's unfortunate. I'm wondering if the techniques will eventually just become lost to the world of judo.

[Asia]

As you probably alredy knew, judo has leg locks but does not use them in shiai (competiton)and finding a judoka who teaches them is rare indeed.

Can I ask how many DAN ranked judoka are here?

Because I DO teach leg locks (ore was nidan desu) so I don't know where this statement comes from.

[Cipher]

Good info everyone. Thank SevenStar for the links.

I hate to keep asking but does anyone have any ideas or opinions about www.iglou.com/toshi :D

From what I understand, there is a pretty strong competition level with Judo around the US and abroad. Has anyone ever competed in Japan?

After looking at Judo Info I can see a strong resemblance with that BJJ has with Judo.

Any more info you all want to post? I am like a dry sponge:eek:

[Asia]

Has anyone ever competed in Japan?

Yes but in grade school.

[SevenStar]

out of the 10 or son dan guys I know, the one that knows leg locks learned them in Sambo.

[SevenStar]

cipher, do a search for judo on this forum - I know we've posted links to other judo sited on here before, but judo info is by far the best I've seen. there's enough info there to keep your sponge soaking for a while. :)

[SevenStar]

three 2nd degree black belts, a fourth degree a fifth and a sixth? some with greco roman experience also - I'd definitely check them out.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Can I ask how many DAN ranked judoka are here?

Because I DO teach leg locks (ore was nidan desu) so I don't know where this statement comes from.

You were a much better troll at Cyberkwoon. Please go back.


lol @ "what rank are you?" you've spent too much time in the military. the rest of us know that rank is hardly the proving grounds for knowledge or skill (I'm probably the best newaza man at our club and its because of my bjj knowledge. I've choked/tapped out yodan!). rank in judo is more akin to "time served"
What was the point of your ridiculous statement? A smarmy "I'm a nidan, I know more about blah blah blah because I'm higher in rank than you!" Small minded thinking usually influenced by military types because rank keeps them controlled and orderly. Question authority? Not me sarge.

Want to impress me? tell me how many years you've been in judo, your IJF # and how many points you've won in competition.

carry on.

the statement comes from the fact that most judoka don't use, teach or even know ellaborate leg locks. its a fact. you know them? congrats me too. and I'm not even a shodan. WOW.

I love the "fringe element" crowd. the Kosen judo, leg locking, pre WWII, combat judo crowd. what a load of ****.

Where's the ignore function?

[SevenStar]

yeah, bjj definitely gives you an edge in judo on the ground!

[ShaolinTiger00]

oh yeah.

those same yodan have LAUNCHED me thru the air.

Judo is the more well rounded art, but groundfighting (bjj)is the more important aspect of the "game". - Control is everything. A throw without control afterwards is worthless.

And Bjj players have good takedowns and throws as well.

[Asia]

You were a much better troll at Cyberkwoon. Please go back.

TROLL!?!? Hardly my skin has cleared up considerably.


The question of rank was quite obvious. Their are pple here stating things form a limited veiw point. If they haven't gone through the curriculm then how do they know what it entails?

But hey what can I tell you . You OBVIOUSLY know all there is to it right I mean you made the statement:


I'm probably the best newaza man at our club and its because of my bjj knowledge. I've choked/tapped out yodan!).

Hey pot pick up the phone it's kettle. Who wants to impress who again?

[omegapoint]

Kodokan Judo schools in the 70s and 80s taught a well-rounded fighting art. I remember doing lots of Kihon (basics) which included dynamics of movement and posture training, Ukemi (breakfalls), Katame waza (standing locks and chokes and Newaza or "ground-techs."), Nage waza (throwing techs), Atemi waza or "striking techs" (which was divided into Ashi- (leg), Ude-(arm), and Ate-waza or vital pt. strikes). We practiced forms called "Kata", which divided into 6 categories (Katame no-, Kime no-, Nage no-, Ju no-, Itutsu no- and Koshiki no-Kata). Some dojos taught Kodokan Goshin Jutsu for defense against armed and unarned attack. When you reached Brown Belt you were also taught Kappo (a resuscitation art) and other basic first-aid and safety principles. You could see how it would be hard to just cocentrate on one or two aspects of the curriculum.

BJJ is very different in that throws and takedowns are simpler. Groundwork (Newaza) is the emphasis. You start from a kneeling position. A few academies teach Goshin Jutsu type self-defense (called Gracie S.D. and usually emephasized in private lessons), but kata and the other training aspects of Judo are missing. BJJ/GJJ specializes in specializing. It is more intricate than it seems, but it gives one the feeling of old style groundfighting before the Olympic format took hold.

Most Kodokan schools these days train for competiton, plain and simple. Submissions are very secondary and throws are emphasized. As for Kosen, Maeda the Japanese "Master" who passed on his knowledge to the Gracies, was purported to be a proficient Kosen stylist. I've never seen it anywhere before BJJ. I don't doubt that some schools exist.

Leg-locks were totally absent. In fact, although the Gracie family did know leg-locks, they really didn't start teaching them until fairly recently. I think Sambo and Shootfighting did a lot to show the efficacy of leg- and foot-locks. Be careful when using leg submissions in training. No base means no game! Hope I helped...

[MA fanatic]

BJJ and Judo are quite different. Cross training in both will make you a better grappler. I train in Gracie BJJ, and we have plenty of Kodoken Judo guys training with us who at the same time train in Judo. Some of our guys also train in Judo. Kung Fu, TKD, Karate, Aikido, Hapkido, etc etc. all have their share of BSers, propoganda, and politics. A true martial artists just doesn't pay attention or care.
MA fanatic

[friday]

hmmm anyone know of any good judo places in sydney?
what do u think would be good? do judo or bjj (bjj would definitely be with the australian division of machado brothers)
for throws, takedowns, groundwork?

friday

[ShaolinTiger00]

As for Kosen, Maeda the Japanese "Master" who passed on his knowledge to the Gracies, was purported to be a proficient Kosen stylist. I've never seen it anywhere before BJJ. I don't doubt that some schools exist.

Sorry sir, but Maeda had already left Japan before this school was even founded. Maeda was just an old school judo man. (At that time "judo" was practically a jujitsu that was better organized and trained more randori.)
The BJJ that we see today is Helio's version of the art. The art that was taught to Carlos Sr. was very Japanese in nature. Helio was a sickly child and could not perform many of the techniques. His limitations turned to technical superiority in the skills he could perform. groundwork.

Hey pot pick up the phone it's kettle. Who wants to impress who again?

Read further before you shoot your mouth off, you missed this.
those same yodan have LAUNCHED me thru the air.

I excell in one area, I am humbled in another. I work to make the whole better.

[ShaolinTiger00]

the best?

throws - judo

takedowns - wrestling

groundwork - bjj



judo - emphasis on throws with takedowns and groundwork coming after.

wrestling - good takedowns and good base mat skills but no submissions

bjj - essential takedowns and throws and excellent groundwork.

[friday]

thanks ST.
ok if i do all three then i'll become invincible? :)
hehe just a theory a friend and i were throwing around one day

[Cipher]

Cool, thanks for the info dudes.

I am getting into San Shou so I want to do something with a little more concentration on throwing to go along with Kung Fu. At the same time I want to learn more ground work too so Judo seems to be a good choice if I can find the right place. Were I train we do some throwing and ground work but it is nice to concentrait on a certain aspect of training.

Here is another similar question. The place I mentioned before, also say they have traditional Ju Jitsu trainging so I guess it is a Judo/JJ school. I know Judo was derived from JJ originally so thinking in modern day terms what would be the main differences between Judo and traditional JJ?

[LeeCasebolt]

" Here is another similar question. The place I mentioned before, also say they have traditional Ju Jitsu trainging so I guess it is a Judo/JJ school. I know Judo was derived from JJ originally so thinking in modern day terms what would be the main differences between Judo and traditional JJ?"

"Traditional JJ" is almost as generic a term as "kung fu", so the differences depend entirely on which ryu of jujitsu they teach. The most common curriculum (in my limited experience) will have some basic standing grappling - aikido-esque wrist and elbow locks, for the most part - some throwing techniques, and basic striking. Maybe some pressure points.

Training style will likewise depend on the individual school and style. If they're affilitated with a judo dojo, I'd expect a significant amount of randori.

I'd expect less groundwork, somewhat more emphasis on "self-defense" vs competition, a wider variety of techniques, and more emphasis on drills and kata than randori.

Lee

[ShaolinTiger00]

Cipher,

To me it seems you are looking for two things. 1. An art (sport) that will help you in San shou and 2. An art (sport) that will aid you in groundfighting.
San shou’s throwing is comprised of:
A. Shooting in similar to wrestling in an offensive manner. Single leg/double leg common,
B. Throws after a kick has been caught (usually the support leg is bumped out),
C. throws after the punching range has been gapped and fighters grasp in defense or offensive motives.
Since san shou fighters are “club handed” (this isn't a bad thing in reality as they learn to use the body instead of clothes as a handle) because of the gloves, they rely on using Under/Over-hooks around the arms legs and neck and use of their hips which are important for both sprawling to avoid and executing throws. These throws from the arm and hips are the hardest to use and hardest to learn.
D. Footsweeps - Very effective but hard to master - its all in the timing_
E. Sacrifice throws - seldom used as (on purpose) but makes opponent hate clinching with you.

In my opinion the best cross training grappling art for san shou is Wrestling. Wrestlers know how to sprawl, shoot, clinch, bump and react (counter) these techniques, making it ideal for san shou. A good coach will easily add a few “hip throws” to an arsenal for this skill set.

While I think judo is the better rounded grappling art, it spends a majority of the throwing time on the 3rd type of throw mentioned above. ( I know wonder why more san shou players aren’t adept at using foot sweeps but someone may soon come along to change that – cung and rudi seem to do them well..)

Judo will give you a very good knowledge of foot sweeps, hip throws and arm throws, sacrifice throws and a basic understanding of takedowns. It also includes groundwork – control, pins, chokes/strangles and joint locks. As mentioned previously some people will find they are better skilled in this aspect than standup, but balance is what you should look for.

IMHO the most overlooked aspect of the entire martial arts is the “middle area” the clinch, slugging, fumbling fight for control. I think this is what makes san shou so exciting and a good combat art. Sanshou addressing this in both grappling and striking situation. Typical MMA see muay thai striking and BJJ grappling. But the middle is where th control happens and without control what is the point of engaging?

Train san shou from a respectable place to become a good san shou fighter. The cross training is only supplemental. But look at wrestling, judo, boxing, bjj to refine these elements of your fighting and you will gain some insight.

Good luck.

p.s. Grappling – What is “enough for you”? Do you wish to be competent and handle yourself against thugs and studs or do you wish to become “the technician” able to Kimura/sweep/clock choke/ armbar some of the best grapplers around?

[ShaolinTiger00]

I think Lee got it right depending on how you look at it either its a more well rounded art with striking or a worsened grappling art with less time devoted to grappling.

****ed if you do ****ed if you don't..

[Cipher]

Well, I have not been totaly clear on my motives. I love the sport aspect of Martial Arts, I won't get into the point sparring and that type of thing. But i want something as realistic as possible in the sense of freedom of moves and resistance. And from what I have found, San Shou is the best thing out there short of NHB matches. I know that there is a difference between San Shou or MMA sports and street defense to a point but you have to admit that the full contact fighting has to help your ability to defend yourself on the street too. Anyways, I said that to say this, my main concern in MA is to learn how to fight and defend myself in whatever kind of situation I could possibly be in (very broad I know, but think mentality) so the most important thing is I want to be able to defend me and my family the best I can.

When you train for sport such as San Shou I think it is also important to train for street fighting also and not limit it to a set of rules, of course you have to train with specific rules so you don't screw up in the ring I'm sure. The main thing I have yet to find out is how it can conflict with the two worlds.

I think I will like Judo/JJ very much, I love the Kung Fu I do now, I'll never stop that training but I think it is good to test your self and be good at all ranges also.

I looked at the main teachers credentials and he looks like a very well rounded fellow. He has Judo, Ju Jitsu and Greco Roman wrestling championships under his belt so I am sure that it all plays into efect in the training there in someway or another.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Cipher,

you seem like an open minded guy. great. put this in the back of your mind then. make a clear distinction between martial arts and self defense. night and day.

The street is gangs, weapons, suprise, chaos, and many other horrible things you could never ever "train" for.

Self Defense by Charles Nelson (Nelson)

Do or Die by A. Drexel Biddle (Paladin Press)

Get Tough by W.E. Fairbairn (Paladin Press)

Kill Or Get Killed by Rex Applegate (Paladin Press)

The First Commando Knives by Yeaton & Applegate (Phillips Publications)

Cold Steel by John Styers (Paladin Press)

The Close Combat Files of Col. Rex Applegate by Applegate & Melson (Paladin Press)

Combat Conditioning (Paladin Press)

Hand-To-Hand Combat (400) (Desert Publications)

U.S. Marine Corps, Hand-To-Hand Combat (401) (Desert Publications)

Street Smarts by "Jim Grover" (Paladin Press)

www.ghca.org

www.cruciblesecurity.com

check these links. these people have treated me like gold and have shown me the truth about self defense. It will make you giggle the next time you see a martial art school advertising the same words.

[Cipher]

ShaolinTiger00,

Great, thanks for the links and info. I will check out those sites when I go home tonight.

I think one big thing about self defense on the street is mentality. Like being aware of who is around you and were you are or were your going etc. etc.

[SevenStar]

"IMHO the most overlooked aspect of the entire martial arts is the “middle area” the clinch, slugging, fumbling fight for control. I think this is what makes san shou so exciting and a good combat art. Sanshou addressing this in both grappling and striking situation. Typical MMA see muay thai striking and BJJ grappling. But the middle is where th control happens and without control what is the point of engaging?"

I don't think MMA overlook the clinch at all. the muay thai plumb, wrestling, bjj and judo takedowns happen in the clinch or right before. you may not see alot of it in competitions because nobody wants to stay in a clinch, but it's definitely addressed.

[ShaolinTiger00]

because nobody wants to stay in a clinch because they don't know what to do! They treat this phase as "transitional" at best. granted it is "the middle range" and transition makes sense but the skill at this gap is overlooked IMO.

standup grapplers do address it as you mentioned. muaythai - "eh" they understand head control, but then attack and backout to regroup.

I see your point but there is certainly a gap between the striking and groundwork games in muaythai/bjj camps.


that my opinion for what its worth.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Sorry sir, but Maeda had already left Japan before this school was even founded. Maeda was just an old school judo man. (At that time "judo" was practically a jujitsu that was better organized and trained more randori.)
The BJJ that we see today is Helio's version of the art. The art that was taught to Carlos Sr. was very Japanese in nature. Helio was a sickly child and could not perform many of the techniques. His limitations turned to technical superiority in the skills he could perform. groundwork.

I may be mistaken. If you guys are saying that Kosen concentrates on groundwork, then I'm saying Maeda (who was also a pro-wrestler) was a Kosen specialist. Maybe it wasn't called Kosen, but from you guys' descriptions, BJJ and Kosen sound synonymous. What Helio changed were the techs that needed size and strength to execute. I don't think he was sickly, just small. He sure has lived a long healthy life for being a immunocompromised type. BTW, don't try and tell me GJJ history. You ain't got a clue...

For example:

those same yodan have LAUNCHED me thru the air.

What is a yodan. I thought maybe it was a typo, but I see you probably meant Yondan, or 4th degree BBs. For some reason, if that's what/who you are talking about, I'd have to question your story's validity.


I excell in one area, I am humbled in another. I work to make the whole better.

You excel according to whom? You? Not very objective...

[TaoBoy]

Omegapoint, I think you're being a little harsh. Sure ST's word choice may not have been the best...but..?

ST, thanks for the links - viewing now.

[LeeCasebolt]

"because nobody wants to stay in a clinch because they don't know what to do! They treat this phase as "transitional" at best. granted it is "the middle range" and transition makes sense but the skill at this gap is overlooked IMO."

Actually, the clinch is (IMO) rapidly becoming the place fights are won and lost in MMA. Many of the top fighters, in particular the better converted wrestlers (Randy Couture, Dan Henderson, and Jens Pulver spring to mind) do a lot of damage by virtue of being able to control this range. Greco-roman clinch work and "dirty boxing", lots of holding and hitting, and switching between punches, knees, and elbows are all characteristic techniques of the better clinch fighters.

You don't see this level of sophistication from the BJJ/Muay thai uber alles camps, but it's becoming a higher priority among the elites.

Lee

[KnightSabre]

You guys should check out Matt Thorntons tapes on the clinch.
Go to http://www.straighblastgym.com he has probably the best clinch stuff available.He also trains with Randy Couture who is well known for his excellent clinch fighting.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Maybe it wasn't called Kosen, but from you guys' descriptions, BJJ and Kosen sound synonymous. What Helio changed were the techs that needed size and strength to execute. I don't think he was sickly, just small.

First off, Maeda had absolutely nothing to do with The Kosen school of judo. The twain never crossed paths, the timelines will provide evidence. Maeda was just a hard core jujitsu/judo man whom you called a "pro wrestler" was actually a "professional grappler" -there was no acting going on.

Why was Maeda so good on the ground? - Because in a real fight between two combatants that is where he wanted to be, being the skilled grappler. Why would he want to excahnge blows or battle it out standing when he clearly had the training advantage?match over match proved to him that the easiest way to win these matches was to get them to the ground and submit them. That's reality.

Helio Gracie was a Sickly CHILD, to quote Monty Python.. "He got better".



I'd have to question your story's validity.
You'll have to excuse me, for I am a bear of little brain sometimes.
WTF are you talking about? I was commenting that while I am skilled at matwork far above my judo rank, I am easily dominated by these yondan -(4th degree BB) in standing randori.. as could be imagined.



You excel according to whom? You? Not very objective...

According to these same BB's and many others at my club and surrounding clubs that I visit. People on this message board know me, I can give out my name, club, instructors, USJF# and points to anyone who questions my words.

[Merryprankster]

Shaolin,

If you'd like to come down to Lloyd's this weekend, lemme know.

We can make it an ALL DAY affair (well, mostly)

James

[lkfmdc]

If you are training in a San Shou program linked back to the original military San Shou then you are learning how to clinch to BOTH strike and grapple. Wrestling will teach you to clinch to takedown, not to strike and not to defend against the strike, and wrestlers of the collegiate/free style do things that in a submission and striking venue would be BAD BAD BAD (poor student of mine who is excellent college wrestler and is getting schooled in grappling by newbies who know how to choke and neck crank LOL)

Muay Thai severly limits the "grappling" and if you study it with a coach who isnt' thinking MMA, things he can show you that work in a strict MT fight will get you killed in MMA.

My personal favorite to cross train with San Shou is Russian Sambo, and in fact during period of cooperation between China and Soviet Union it was a common event to have these two cross trained (Soviet San Shou team). Sambo is very wrestling based, but with arm and leg locks, good sambo guys with military background also CHOKE...

But if real San Shou or good Sambo isn't around you, I'd strongly suggest you buy Erik Paulson's stuff, most intergrated and most like San Shou of ANYTHING I have ever seen

[Cipher]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
If you are training in a San Shou program linked back to the original military San Shou then you are learning how to clinch to BOTH strike and grapple. Wrestling will teach you to clinch to takedown, not to strike and not to defend against the strike, and wrestlers of the collegiate/free style do things that in a submission and striking venue would be BAD BAD BAD (poor student of mine who is excellent college wrestler and is getting schooled in grappling by newbies who know how to choke and neck crank LOL)

Muay Thai severly limits the "grappling" and if you study it with a coach who isnt' thinking MMA, things he can show you that work in a strict MT fight will get you killed in MMA.

My personal favorite to cross train with San Shou is Russian Sambo, and in fact during period of cooperation between China and Soviet Union it was a common event to have these two cross trained (Soviet San Shou team). Sambo is very wrestling based, but with arm and leg locks, good sambo guys with military background also CHOKE...

But if real San Shou or good Sambo isn't around you, I'd strongly suggest you buy Erik Paulson's stuff, most intergrated and most like San Shou of ANYTHING I have ever seen

What kind of stuff from Erik Paulson? Books and video's? Any specific book or video to look for? Thanks.