strength-based martial arts

[n0rmann]

I'm currently taking Chen tai chi, which I love, but as you know, in theory, you don't have to use strength for applications. I was looking for a second art to study, and I would like to find something a little more strength-based because I'm a strong guy, and would like to use it.

Thanks for any info.

[SevenStar]

thai boxing.

[Fu-Pow]

Western Wrestling.

Chinese martial arts aren't really strength based in the western sense of the word. They're jin based which is refined strength and efficiency. Chen Taiji has very refined jins. You might look at just lifting weights and running if you want get in shape.

[n0rmann]

Fu Pow

It's actually more for fun than getting in shape. I have to stay interested to continue something, and weightlifting and running gets to boring to fast. That's why I enjoy martial arts, you're always learning something new.

[SevenStar]

there's plenty of use of leverage and positionging in grappling. it's more strength based then taiji, but it's not really strength based. Just like with other styles, people will use strength either

1. to aid the technique
2.when they can't get the technique to work.
3. to prevent techniques from being used on them.

[Former castleva]

Mongolian wrestling maybe...
Quite hard to find though.

Whatever you do,muscular strength will not hurt but I don´t think you want to use it as ýour primary mechanism for power,this will eventually lead to poor technique and is useles against stronger opponent.

Goju-ryu karate I think might also be more suitable for larger build.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Think of your strength as a good compensator.

1.) You need it to do Chen Taiji well. Refined strength is built upon strong legs and back!

2.) When you start fighting, and you meet an equally skilled opponent, the stronger one will have the advantage.

3.) Stop thinking of strength as independent limb strength, and more in the terms of old fashioned strength nuts like you find at www.ironmind.com. That will help you get through to the more complex CMA model.

If you really just want to hit something without worrying about CMA mechanics, Muay Thai is a good choice.

There is an old Chinese training maxim: "First confidence, then strength, then technique."

In other words - you must have a will to fight, then you must be strong enough to fight, then you must develop fighting skill. Remember, what is often meant by 'not needing strength' is very relative. Without the basic strength, your Taiji will be for nought. But an educated, refined use of strength will be very effective.

[LEGEND]

Free style wrestling=more leverage than strength!

Try GRECO ROMAN WRESTLING=that's some POWERFUL stuff!

[Budokan]

Agreed. Greco Roman depends much more on innate strength than some of the more fluid modern styles of wrestling.

[TaoBoy]

Boxing?
Kickboxing?
Muay Thai?

Maybe not all about strenth per se but a whole lot different in energy production than Chen Taiji.

[IronFist]

Dude, the ancient art of throwing is largely based upon strength. Allow me to elaborate. If you are capable of picking up a 100lb rock and heaving it at your opponent's head, you will be in a better position than if you lack the strength to pick up and throw that 100lb rock.

Or, if you possess the strength to rip a street sign out of the ground, you will have a large weapon with good reach.

Finally, if you are strong enough to pick up a car over your head, no one will f*ck with you, except for BJJ guys, who will say you can't pick up a car on the ground.

IronFist

[SevenStar]

"Finally, if you are strong enough to pick up a car over your head, no one will f*ck with you, except for BJJ guys, who will say you can't pick up a car on the ground."

:D:D

it's true though. :D

[Braden]

Your strength is waisted in Chen taiji?

Power, alot of it, is still being generated in the internal arts. They simply have a different approach. One thing I've heard is "If you're feeling the power, your opponent isn't" as a description of tense movements which seem powerful to you doing them in isolation. In the internal arts you have to relax, alot. This is true regardless of your strength level. If you are stronger than your training partners, for the sake of training, you'll have to struggle with not using your strength, for the sake of refining your technique. This is training; the idea is that, what you are refining here, will make you use your strength much more efficiently. When "a big ugly *******" is charging at you, you use everything you've got to keep him from hurting you, right? This seems to make sense to me, rather than "you don't use strength in your applications." Based on what I've felt, training internal methods with people of different body types, I can say without hesitation that a heavy, powerful body has alot of advantages (even sticking entirely within the context of internal method refinement).

Also, what MonkeySlap Too said. :D

[SevenStar]

sounds like bjj

[Merryprankster]

There's no such thing as a strength based martial art. Size and strength only assist your success. As an analogy, you can be the most technically proficient shotputter in the world, but at 180 lbs, you're going to get smoked by a guy with 80% of your technical skills, who outweighs you by 100 lbs of muscle.

Greco is not more strength based than freestyle or folk. It's just different. And the reason that people talk about sportive arts as being strength based is because on top of becoming technically proficient, these guys are looking for a competitive edge--and muscle is one component of that.

Strength helps regardless of what you're doing, and doesn't mean more in one art than in another, IMO.

I do agree that certain arts place more emphasis on results than doing something a specific way. Royce Alger, for instance, showed me a bunch of stuff at wrestling camp I could never use because it requires more strength than I'll ever have. Nothing biomechanically efficient about what he was doing. Effective? Sure! But that's a personal issue, not a "style," thing, ie, are you a slick boxer, or are you more the battering ram ala Rocky Marciano?

You'll likely find techniques that are good for you in any style, and some you just can't pull off no matter how much you work on them. *shrug*

[abobo]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
There's no such thing as a strength based martial art. Size and strength only assist your success. As an analogy, you can be the most technically proficient shotputter in the world, but at 180 lbs, you're going to get smoked by a guy with 80% of your technical skills, who outweighs you by 100 lbs of muscle.

That's an argument for shotput being based on strength and size.

[MightyB]

Does strength equal success, not really, but it sure helps. Doesn't anybody watch combative sports?

Here's one of my theories

I personally think that most of the joint locks and pressure point techniques shown today are pure fanciful bunk. Back in the day, there wouldn't have been time to do some inefficient overly technical joint lock. Simple is better, and you better be strong to be able to apply it. Press a pressure point. Does it hurt? Sure. Is it enough to make somebody weak in the knees or pass out from pain? Doubtfully. Then it's just a neat trick to show willing people at parties. If you get strong enough, you can fight with it.

Should you rely on strength? No. But, have you ever read a competitve olympic Judo book that didn't place emphasis on strength training? Again, no...

Man, did I get sidetracked or what? To answer your original question... Any form of grappling, chin-na, or throwing, but I'd personally incorporate power and muscular strength into all martial arts. I wouldn't do any striking art though. Some people suggested Thai or western boxing. I think that I appreciate what you're going for which is the opportunity for pure muscular exhaustion after you exert a powereful technique. I think that Judo or Shuai Jou would be your best bets.

[Water Dragon]

The goal here is co-ordinated strength (refined strength, jing, whatever-you-want-to-call-it)

Basically, A smaller guy who can make all his muscles work together has an advantage over a big guy who can't.

However, a big guy who can make all his muscles work together is an absolute nightmare.

A little guy who doesn't want to get any stronger because it's too much work will probably never be any good at any thing, as there's too much work involved :D <-- despite his excuses of strength is bad for martial arts

[Sho]

Someone mentioned Goju-Ryu karate. In fact, Shotokan karate has most muscular tension amongst all lineages of karate. A very large amount of muscular tension and strength is placed on, for instance, blocks.

[Former castleva]

"I personally think that most of the joint locks and pressure point techniques shown today are pure fanciful bunk. Back in the day, there wouldn't have been time to do some inefficient overly technical joint lock. Simple is better, and you better be strong to be able to apply it. Press a pressure point. Does it hurt? Sure. Is it enough to make somebody weak in the knees or pass out from pain? Doubtfully. Then it's just a neat trick to show willing people at parties. If you get strong enough, you can fight with it."

Pressure point´s don´t require too much strength if used properly.
Locks rely on proper leverage,pain compliance and natural weaknesses and proper body placement to win.
Different from muscle moves/forcing.
Pressure points can kill without too much trouble if used that way.

Here´s one fancy example of how jointlocks had a place in the old days.
At certain times of feudal Japan,when soldiers generally wore armour they were invulnerable to strikes and related attacks of bare handed (at least)
As samurai were also skilled in unarmed combat which I translate to jujutsu.They could still use jointlocks to overcome opponent´s unarmed because of natural weaknesses in both joints and especially opponent´s armor at those places,reasonable...

Sorry if I ramble a bit,I just might.

[Merryprankster]

No Adobo, it's not.

What it demonstrates is, in a Results based environment, natural athletic advantages can sometimes more than compensate for technique. The technique involved in shotput is independent of size and strength. However, a stronger, larger athlete is going to have a natural advantage. Whether or not he or she capitalizes on it is up to him or her.

This applies to most sports and definitely to all combative sports: technique can only make up so much of the strength/punishment absorption deficit.

[Nevermind]

In my opinion, strength is an advantage only if you know how to use it as such. I mean, if you have the gifts (height, reach, upper body strength) why not learn to capitalize on those things? It doesn't make you any less of a martial artist. In fact, it can only make you a better martial artist. So I say, take whatever natural God-given gifts you may have and tailor your training so that you can use them as weapons. Look at it this way, if you can do damage with minimal strength, just imagine what you can do if you use all of your power? The possibilities are endless. Heck, if you got it, learn to use it. Whether it be height, strength, speed, reach, it can only help you. Just my two cents.

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

I agree with Water Dragon & Nevermind.


If u want a style to build external & internal strength & have POWERFUL hits, blocks, etc I reccomend Hung Gar Kuen!!!
One of the reasons Hung Gar was/is one of the most famous & feared southern styles is its POWER!

My friend showed me a few basic strengthening exercises that build a lot of power.

[taijiquan_student]

You said you do Chen taiji right? If you build muscle with weight training or something else like it, it'll only hurt your taiji if you can't let go of the tension you build up. I've seen old pictures of my teacher's teacher, and he's ripped. But he could just let it go when he did taiji.

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by Nevermind
In my opinion, strength is an advantage only if you know how to use it as such.

spot on. this includes other arts in which you use someone else's strength to your advantage, and it's why certain wee little judoka can toss around the largest of goofs.

it also explains why two of my sije, neither of whom is taller than 5'3" or particularly heavy, make me and my big pipes look silly when we cross hands. they know how to use their strength, and they know how to use mine, too. :mad:


;)

[SevenStar]

I was gonna use ironfist's quote as my sig, but you beat me to it, darn you :mad:

[n0rmann]

Thank you all for your responses. I think strength-based martial art was a wrong way to put it. Mighty B was right about what I was getting at, something I can feel some muscular exhaustion. I don't plan on giving up Chen tai-chi, and my leg strength comes in handy in it. I just had a change of schedule of work, so I have time to add a second martial art, and wanted something different.

[Mutant]

if you live in the boston area, you might want to check out boston kungfu/tai-chi, specifically their san shou program. it is chinese kickboxing with throws and takedowns and is a great workout. if youre looking for muscular exhaustion and an all around kick-azz workout that would directy relate to your other cma training, this might work for you. a lot of the guys there have tradional cma backgrounds and push-hands type drills (& others) are integrated into the training. overall a fun group to train with. located at intersection of mass ave and newbury street across from virgin records, top floor.
if youre not in the boston area then check out some muay tai or mma gyms in your area. and theres always the judo or shuai jou route, good suggestions. and you might be able to get what you need within tai chi, depends on how you train and push yourself and who youre training partners are.
good luck.

[Ging Mo Fighter]

if your looking for a chinese martial art try southern praying mantis

otherwise western boxing is an excellent martial art

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by n0rmann
Thank you all for your responses. I think strength-based martial art was a wrong way to put it. Mighty B was right about what I was getting at, something I can feel some muscular exhaustion. I don't plan on giving up Chen tai-chi, and my leg strength comes in handy in it. I just had a change of schedule of work, so I have time to add a second martial art, and wanted something different.

Excellent, then I actually answered your question correctly. I stnd by my previous response as those styles will give you the muscular exhaustion as you stated.

GMF is on track too. SPM is good for muscular work.

[MA fanatic]

I agree with Merrypransker. Grappling arts focus on leverage rather than pure strength. In some grappling tournaments we even have an absolute devision where a grappler could try his skills against grapplers in higher weight classes, and vice versa.
As for arts like Muay Thai, well those are about timing, distance and accuracy. The power of kicks, and punches also comes from leverage, speed, and physics of body movement. As for stregth in and of itself, it's important for all martial artists. Those who say that size and stregnth doesn't matter in a fight, are fooling themselves. When all else is equal, strength could be the deciding factor between a winner and a loser.
MA fanatic