the paradigm shift concept of Time and Space [Archive]

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kungfu cowboy

11-11-2002, 02:03 PM

I saw this mentioned in a HFY thing. Anyone know the details on this one?

Savi

11-11-2002, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
I saw this mentioned in a HFY thing. Anyone know the details on this one?

Howdy kungfu Cowboy,

This is MY personal understanding from my experience in the HFYWCK:

The concept of Time and Space has been addressed in many threads before, but met with great contention among non-HFY practitioners involved on the thread. I have a great willingness to interact with others on this forum, but disappointment is usually the result from negative comments.

First I must clarify that from what I have read among the threads, the confusion is in the context of the Time and Space Concept (TSC) meaning:

1) merely an awareness of Time (as in timing, time it takes to move from point A to point B) and Space (as in distance judgement/measuring from pt. A to pt. B)

In other words, a concept of Time and Space (an idea/heuristic)

2) the TSC as a FORMULA to address precise positions in space relative to the practitioner (positions inside and outside of the body). The TSC allows the practitioner to identify where every joint of their body and posture should always be to efficiently address an incoming attack.

In other words, the Time and Space Concept (a precise formula allowing for consistent, measureable results)

Do you see the distinction? If not, let me know and I will try to reword it again as best I can.

As stated in #2 (which is the context whom HFY addresses) the Time and Space Concept is a formula which consists of variables in an equation to equal Harmony - harmony between your parts (arms, legs, torso) or (body, mind, and spirit), then achieving harmony between you and your opponent (through formula-driven strategies and tactics).

The variables that are part of the formula are not techniques. The variables do not consist of factors of mass, speed, time. What the variables are involve principles, concepts, strategies and tactics.

Each guiding principle, concept, strategy, and tactic address factors of depth, width, and heigth whether it be in yourself, or from you to an opponent. An entire book can be written just on the formula for there are many layers within it. OR single threads of each variable of the formula would be most appropriate for clear and productive answers.

When teaching the formula, only the neccesary layers of the formula are exposed, per level learned, until the system is completed. Then the practitioner will have the entire picture.

That's about as best I could describe what the TSC is, without going into any specific layer. If there are specific questions, then an answer (to be efficient) would have to address it from all 3 dimensions of space. If addressing a Time issue, it would have to be addressed through the combat strategies and tactics.

Please let me know if any part of this needs clarification.

Any non-productive replies will not be addressed.

I hope this gives you an idea on where HFY is coming from WRT the Time and Space Concept.

thank you for the question,
-Savi.

kungfu cowboy

11-12-2002, 12:44 AM

Thanks, Savi. You gave a good explanation.

IronFist

11-12-2002, 12:53 PM

****, I thought you guys were about to talk quantum physics.

IronFist

yenhoi

11-12-2002, 01:08 PM

TSC seems to me a really neat way to say " hit your opponent."

Not flaming. Thanks Savi, I think that was the best explanation so far, but Im sure your many friends on this forum will be here real soon to challenge you on your styles history and whatever else they usually are yellin about.

reneritchie

11-12-2002, 02:19 PM

Great post Savi! It's sharing like this that keeps my faith in the WCK community alive!

To help keep this thread free of trolling and us vs. them quibbling, I'm going to pretend its just you and me at the teahouse talking about WCK, no labels or politics or anything.

I find your thoughts very interesting. It seems (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that you're talking about a degree of 'perfection' - trying to always utilize the most ideal response to any given situation, with rapidity in response and positional advantage in the response measuring the ideal.

A question that comes to mind, and something of a demon I battle in my own practice, is: do you ever find there's a tradeoff between the two? Do you ever find that achieving the best position (space if you will) sometimes slows down the rapidity of the response (time) possible? Conversely, do you find that if you don't have much time, it contrains the possible positions attainable? I know for myself what I can do when in a pre-set condition (eg. sparring, where we're restricted to two people and both know what's about to happen and can prepare their best for it), vs. what I can do when surprised, especially from an initially disadvantageous position (blindsided, etc.)

My current thinking is that its a bit like quantum mechanics in that the more accurately you try to measure it, the more you effect it, leaving always some uncertainty (you can know the ideal space but not in time, or you can react within the given time but not always within the ideal space).

Now, I would love a terminator-esque setup with laser guided referencing and the cpu power to compute and adjust in real-time, but I'm not getting any younger and my simple organic mush of a brain doesn't work that way anway. LOL! So, in my current way of thinking, I think some form of "eye-balling" (the dreaded fuzzy-logic) has to occur, regardless of the scale (no one's operating on an astronomical nor quantum scale, so I think its just a matter of 3 points vs. 9 vs. 18 or what have you at this juncture).

Have your experiences been different? If so, how have you come to deal with this?

RR

azwingchun

11-12-2002, 04:18 PM

I don't mean to try and simplify this, but this is how I train my Wing Chun, as simple of terms as possible. I am sure that there will be those who totally try to disagree with me on this but here it goes.
I feel that we all train in this form or way, though maybe we just never use these terms, or maybe I am just missing the picture that is being painted. I feel that there is obviously that very perfect space/time for the proper attack and defense situation, which not only depends on your size but the opponents, but the speed or quickness you both may have. But through awareness and eye response your timing is created. The timing can also be affected by the principles of moving through the angles available. And let's not forget that at any moment in time there is a striking point which is left open, providing you are in a striking range. I realize that there are other factors that I am leaving out, but I am just trying to figure out if this is just a fancy way to describe what all/most Wing Chun players train everyday? Forgive my layman words....LOL.
;)

Grendel

11-12-2002, 04:18 PM

Hi Rene,

Thanks for your contribution on the Hung Fi Yi saga.

From the archives of wingchunkuen.com:
Click here (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/systems/systems_hungfayee.shtml)

Hung Fa Yee Chun Kuen (Honghua Yi Yongchunquan), commonly romanized at Hung Fa Yi (Red Flower Righteous) and previously referred to as Hung Suen (Red Boat) Wing Chun Kuen, was introduced by Garrett Gee of San Francisco. Although this branch is said to come from Xiguan, Guangzhou, China, it is currently only available in San Fracisco, U.S.A. and thus it has not yet been possible to cross-check or otherwise verify the information presented here.

Didn't all these facts just get pooh-poohed on that other thread. Why didn't you chime in then and support Andrew S. and others who merely reported this "original" history and then were slammed with ad hominem attacks for it, because it is no longer the history of HFY?

Apparently, honest folks on this forum ran up against a time when the HFY history and (LOL) "science" is out for revision as indicated on the Garrett Gee school web site.
Click here (http://www.hungfayi.com/)

Crikey, let's have some semblence of intellectual honesty here. It is no kindness to let them carry on in their deluded state.

Regards,

Savi

11-12-2002, 05:17 PM

Hi Rene, I can answer question, but I don't have enough time right now. My response will be a bit involved. I'll send you a response hopefully before midnight. Others are encouraged to respond! I have to go to the Kwoon.

Hi Grendel, This thread is about the Time and Space Concept. With all due respect, your question is best suited via private message to Rene Ritchie through the services of this web site, or by e-mail.

Thanks,
-Savi.

planetwc

11-12-2002, 05:41 PM

azwingchun,

Well for pete's sake my man, you've let the proverbial cat out of the bag! Of course we all attempt to train in the same fashion--that is what Wing Chun is all about--without the Chan window dressing.

Now it could just be that the Moy Yat students who now recently study HFY were not taught such concepts before.

Sensitivity
Position
Timing
Structure

These are fundamental concepts in Yip Man Wing Chun. There are many others as well. Perhaps it is different in say Weng Chun, which is a different art.

Originally posted by azwingchun
I don't mean to try and simplify this, but this is how I train my Wing Chun, as simple of terms as possible. I am sure that there will be those who totally try to disagree with me on this but here it goes.
I feel that we all train in this form or way, though maybe we just never use these terms, or maybe I am just missing the picture that is being painted. I feel that there is obviously that very perfect space/time for the proper attack and defense situation, which not only depends on your size but the opponents, but the speed or quickness you both may have. But through awareness and eye response your timing is created. The timing can also be affected by the principles of moving through the angles available. And let's not forget that at any moment in time there is a striking point which is left open, providing you are in a striking range. I realize that there are other factors that I am leaving out, but I am just trying to figure out if this is just a fancy way to describe what all/most Wing Chun players train everyday? Forgive my layman words....LOL.
;)

azwingchun

11-12-2002, 05:59 PM

LOL.....I thought so, though I have heard so much about this and nobody has realy seemed to go into any detail about this 'time and space' stuff, so I just thought that I would try to explain it in my own terms. Or maybe someone has tried to explain it prior to this thread and I missed it, who knows. I have trained in Wing Chun for about 14 years and have never heard this time/space terminology until maybe a year ago. And to be honest (this isn't meant to flame anyone....honestly!) I just put it off as something mystical to draw new students. But the more I thought about it, I figured out (IMHO) that it is the same thing most of us in Wing Chun do but just packed(worded) in one phrase.;)

yuanfen

11-12-2002, 06:14 PM

optimum structure, positioning, alignment, spacing, directness,motion, clarity, knowledge of what is open and what is closed,distance is part of good wing chun irrespective of lines.
No need to puff oneself up in an open forum.

Rolling_Hand

11-12-2002, 06:33 PM

Yuanfen,

Think about the last time you listened to your inner voice. What did it say? In order to overcome selfishness, it is necessary to be daring. This is aimed at getting you to take the next step forward in your life. In other words, you should pay more attention to yourself instead of others.

akalish

11-12-2002, 06:52 PM

Rene,

Greetings. Long time no see!

Originally posted by reneritchie
Great post Savi! It's sharing like this that keeps my faith in the WCK community alive!

To help keep this thread free of trolling and us vs. them quibbling, I'm going to pretend its just you and me at the teahouse talking about WCK, no labels or politics or anything.

If you and Savi don't mind a third for tea, I would love to come out of lurker mode and join you for the undoubtedly brief amount of time before the (historically) usual less-than-productive posts start coming in. Sigh...

I find your thoughts very interesting. It seems (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that you're talking about a degree of 'perfection' - trying to always utilize the most ideal response to any given situation, with rapidity in response and positional advantage in the response measuring the ideal.

Excellent point, especially on "ideal". Some thoughts:

When you refer to a "degree of perfection" and "most ideal", I would agree and add that in HFY we differentiate between the ideal state that you desire in any given spatial/time/energy situation and your ability to express that state physically. As Savi mentions, this "ideal" state encompasses both your own structure as well as your body's alignment relative to your opponent.

Also, "response to any given situation" has several aspects. Strategies for engagement based on three-dimensional space start long before contact is made with the opponent. Also, responses can be proactive as well as some of the more well-known sensitivity-based reactive ones.

"Rapidity in response" is a measure of the ideal, but this really refers to the following. Due to my optimal position in 3D space, I am forcing my opponent to have to move faster than me. It is not just about how fast I can move, wether you are refering to raw speed or even sensitivity-enable reactions. I move faster because of my occupation of 3D space. While this sounds like the goal of all families of Wing Chun, please consider the following situation. What if in a combat exchange your yat ji chung choi "occupies the centerline" (for the sake of discussion call this the straight line between the two of you) such that it forces your opponent to throw more of a hook punch around the outside of it. Because you have the shorter distance (line) your straight punch will land first, but is there a possibility that his hook punch will land a second later due to his momentum or followthough? Can you afford this risk? If it may, then in HFY we say that we have not taken 3D space, time, and energy into consideration (although this is more of a space example). In other words, we view the optimal occupation of 3D space as not always being achieved by "occupying the straight line" between your opponent and yourself.

There are very explicit strategies in HFY that provide the "ideal" in this situation, but that is another thread. ; ) From the earlier thread on HFY Kiu Sau, these strategies cover each of the timeframes (kiu sau, chi sau, saan da), with the "ideal" being that ultimately you are place yourself in a situation where you can strike without being challenged or hit.

I realize that my comments above could be better/clearer if I used more specific examples. I will give this some thought and see what I can come up with. Also, I am sure that Savi will also have some thoughts to share. Of course, I will also add the standard caviat that I am just attempting to share based on my current level of understanding.

Also, if you are ever again down in the "Great White South" of Rochester, please look me up for some Wing Chun sharing.

Andy Kalish

akalish

11-12-2002, 06:59 PM

azwingchun

11-12-2002, 07:18 PM

I believe you are absolutely correct. If I believe that my strike is great enough to overcome the on incoming force of a strong hook punch, I would be assuming, which is something I never try to do. I do believe in deviating from the full centerline approach in this case. I would still defend against the incoming force while still striking my opponent. This would be done with staying as close to center as possible, though leaving just enough to stop or nullify the attack. If this is what you are speaking about, I don't believe this is unique to HFY. Though, I must admit I have seen Wing Chun systems that have a different approach to this, even the approach you mentioned of assuming that their strike will hit first and that this would be enough to deaden the hook punch coming in.
;)

11-12-2002, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by akalish
I realize that my comments above could be better/clearer if I used more specific examples. I will give this some thought and see what I can come up with. Also, I am sure that Savi will also have some thoughts to share.

Andy, yours is by far the most helpful and lucid explanation I've seen on the 'time space' concept, to the extent of being a breath of fresh air. You and Savi have demonstrated a great deal of patience and good will in your efforts to share. Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to explain.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

yenhoi

11-12-2002, 07:54 PM

Quote akalish:

In other words, we view the optimal occupation of 3D space as not always being achieved by "occupying the straight line" between your opponent and yourself.

...the "ideal" being that ultimately you are place yourself in a situation where you can strike without being challenged or hit.

--

Quote azwingchun:

...even the approach you mentioned of assuming that their strike will hit first and that this would be enough to deaden the hook punch coming in.

--

I must also offer thanks to akalish, and again to savi.

I am wondering how the time space concept is trained. As it seems to me, the time space concept encompasses all of the smaller aspects mentioned by planetwingchun, even structure when you take this 'concept' and run with it.

Actually seems like a very down-to-earth explanation of where your hands need to go, and when to strike your opponent.

To planetwingchun:

We do not all attempt to train in the same fashion. We all train very, very differently. I train to train, some train to fight, and even others train so they can tell other people how much they train and how.

akalish

11-12-2002, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by azwingchun
... If this is what you are speaking about, I don't believe this is unique to HFY. Though, I must admit I have seen Wing Chun systems that have a different approach to this, even the approach you mentioned of assuming that their strike will hit first and that this would be enough to deaden the hook punch coming in.
;)

To all who have posted replies, thank you! But before I continue the discussion, please consider the following information about me. I consider myself very fortunate to be a student of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. It is a system to which I can really identify. In others words, it makes a very high degree of sense to me. No desire to comment on "better". I have also had the great opportunity to be exposed to several branches of the Yip Man family (Grandmasters Moy Yat, Yip Ching, Yip Chun, Tsui Shong Tin, William Cheung), as well as Chi Sim Weng Chun. However, I do not claim to be trying to expound on what is unique to HFY. I am not out to convince anyone of anything. Rather, I am looking to share some of our ideas so that you can gain some insight into some of the topics that seem to be causing confusion/debate on the forum (whether this is caused by issues inherent to the electronic medium, terminology issues, communication skill issues, or what-have-you).

I will try to describe some of the aspects of HFY, through example as much as possible. Each individual is then free to decide for themselves if the information is something to which they can relate/identify, or is "unique" to a system or not. Sorry for the ramble. I hope my brief diversion into my background didn't cause too many yawns. I would much rather discuss HFY than myself, but sometimes it is a necessary thing so that everyone is calibrated as to what type of person is speaking.

I will try to post something semi-intelligent tomorrow night, but after that I will be out of town until the weekend. Please don't take my downtime as lack of interest in posting. Looking forward to some great tea...

Andy Kalish

R Loewenhagen

11-12-2002, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen
optimum structure, positioning, alignment, spacing, directness,motion, clarity, knowledge of what is open and what is closed,distance is part of good wing chun irrespective of lines.
No need to puff oneself up in an open forum.

Joy,

How trivial.... you know full well, because we have told you more than once, that there is one most efficient position in space and time for any given body part within any any given strategy. Hung Fa Yi is the science that mapped out those most efficient positions.... we have offered numerous times to show you that and you have lacked the courage to travel a mere 5 miles across town to see for yourself. I find it completely intolerable that you keep trying to reduce HFY to your limited mindset... if you don't like my responses, quit talking about that which you have no knowledge... or better yet, let's test it.... you name the place!

Richard

yuanfen

11-12-2002, 09:34 PM

Grow up Lowenhagen. I can express my opinions on what is
said on this list. Your Chan is coming apart in your post.

vingtsunstudent

11-12-2002, 09:59 PM

well my sifu has a saying that goes ''if you have to think, it's to late'' and if by the amount of words i have just seen used to describe this i would say it is already far to late for many of you.
i have to agree with joy on this, every school of even half decent wing chun will be doing what you say this is.
of course there are always better options that will allow you to not be hit but if any of you are foolish enough to think that you are going to have time use what is absolutely the best option or even have half a second to think about your time space concept once someone starts raing blows down on you and tryin' to rip your f'n head off then you are sadly mistaken.
what are you goin' to do once you get hit and or beaten up, are you going to go back and think that you didn't think enough or are you going to realise that you need to train harder and think less about what the ideal position ''might'' have been and then train even harder again.
fair dinkum some of you people live in an absolute fantasy world when it comes to having even the slightest idea of what real hand to hand combat is like.
vts

vingtsunstudent

11-12-2002, 10:04 PM

and to R Loewenhagen
if i was joy i to wouldn't bother to travel 5 miles, let 5 minutes, after hearing all that gibberish.
fancy words have never meant $hit in the real world where life is harsh and nobody cares for philosophical tripe.
vts

taltos

11-12-2002, 10:21 PM

Thank you, Sisuk Andy Kalish and Sidai Savi, for your willingness to put forth your understandings in a clear and concise manner. In both posts I saw things I have known, as well as new things to think about. The two of you have now set the bar for straight-forward explainations and examples. I look forward to your next posts.

-Levi

vingtsunstudent

11-12-2002, 10:31 PM

taltos
well said and i must appoligise for not thanking them for their well put responses and i am also sorry for thinking alot of it is just dressed up basic jibberish but that's my right.
sorry if what i said upsets anyone, but again i must state that they are only saying what should already be known, it's just that they are using more words to get across something that should be easier to explain and just easy to understand.
i'm sure they're not silly enough to think that they are the only group who does things this way and i get the feeling that all joy is trying to do is let them and everybody else know that these terms and descriptions are part of all good wing chun schools
and their phylosophies.
more words doesn't make somebody more right.
vts

Grendel

11-12-2002, 11:59 PM

A new vocabulary does not a new Wing Chun make and calling an approach "scientific" does not make it so.

While I know that in training, there are many possible responses to a given input, in a fight, the best one should just come out. If one had to think about it, applying a "formula," it just wouldn't work.

If Wing Chun reflexes are honed by diligent correct training, then there is no decision to be made on what to do at any juncture within the context of a fight. Now, this is scientific. Every advanced student of real Wing Chun knows how to reproduce this.

Regards,

Chango

11-13-2002, 06:43 AM

We train our reactions to be consistant with the formula!

<Snip>While I know that in training, there are many possible responses to a given input, in a fight, the best one should just come out. If one had to think about it, applying a "formula," it just wouldn't work.

<snip>If Wing Chun reflexes are honed by diligent correct training, then there is no decision to be made on what to do at any juncture within the context of a fight.

"correct training" The formula does not have to be realized every time while in use! The formula helps us realize what the correct training is! Drilling the proper time and space for a technique brings it to the reflexes. The correct tool in the correct time frame at the proper time and space! So how do you verify in your system that your training is correct training? How do you test it? how do you challenge it? (insert cricket chirps)

know when to shut up is the lesson learned here Grendel!

Disussion on wing Chun cost: time on the forum
morning coffee cost: $1.50
Donut cost: $ .50
knowing when to shut up priceless
;)

Geezer

11-13-2002, 07:42 AM

Can the two resident "HECKLERS" Yuanfen/Joy and Grendel please step forward.;)

Savi

11-13-2002, 08:19 AM

Mr. Ritchie- I find your thoughts very interesting. It seems (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that you're talking about a degree of 'perfection' - trying to always utilize the most ideal response to any given situation, with rapidity in response and positional advantage in the response measuring the ideal.

( :)just a bit of semantics :) ) Well, I try not to understand it as "degrees of perfection" or most ideal. This is only because I see combat as two things, 'most efficient' or 'less than efficient.' I guess that's a black and white outlook. Your understanding above, though, is right on track for what I was trying to explain. Let me try my hand at explaining more of the WC formula for us to gain a better understanding:

Imagine a vertical targeting grid (parallel to you) at the locking position. The grid seperates the battlefield into left and right side, and 3 zones (vertically: high, middle, low) per side. 4 of the zones (high and middle) are designated for the hands, and the other 2 (low) are designated for the legs.

Within and inbetween each zone exists the "optimal positions" in space (refer to the last page of the Worshop Announcement Thread) whom Zhuge Liang (sp? going off memory) was asking about. These positions are fixed within the grid. Each position is designed to be in range for use of BOTH left and right side limbs, thus never creating a 'long-short' problem. In other words, everything is symmetrical. Symmetry allows for efficient use of energy, and balanced distribution of space. HFY fighters operate within this idea.

The HFY TSC/formula allows for the most efficient ways the body can use:

1)primary and secondary offense and defense (ie Kiu Sao vs. Chi Sao),
2)unhindered simultaneous offense and defense,
3)maximum mobility and stability (simultaneous) of footwork,
4)and the ability to exist and operate in 6 zones of combat (targeting grid).

Each zone must be constantly occupied by the defender's designated body part, in specific configurations, to allow the above stated. Otherwise, the formula/TSC is violated, and HFY is no longer being expressed. The TSC, also, does not allow for 2 to exist within the framework. There can only be one spider on this web.

I liken the TSC to a spider's web (the grid). Unless you are the spider, it is not likely you (or your technique) will survive. The spider, however (and by nature), can move freely about his/her web.

Mr. Ritchie- A question ....... do you ever find there's a tradeoff between the two? Do you ever find that achieving the best position (space if you will) sometimes slows down the rapidity of the response (time) possible?

:) If this were the case, then it would not be the best position in space. One of the key traits of Shaolin is to have Simultaneous Offense and Defense (more of a Zen, to be in the moment). Of course this can only happen at a specific range of combat, but the TSC is designed to bring the opponent into 'your reality'. Your reality (as a HFY fighter) is to exist in the TSC where simultaneous offense and defense is optimal (most efficient).

From the Saam Mo Kiu (3 connecting bridges/3 stages of awareness) philosophy, the scenario you presented would be under Saan Kiu (awareness stage), where time and space are realized BUT you can only control one or the other. The other two stages are Fau Kiu (wandering stage) where Time and Space are not realized - unattainable, and Weng Kiu (focused stage) where 'optimal' (most efficient) is your only expression. Saan Kiu is inbetween these two. Are you familiar with this philo? I do believe we may have had an article published on it. I'll have to research more to find it, but I THINK it may be under the academics link at www.mengsofaz.com Maybe others know where the article is.

Mr. Ritchie- Conversely, do you find that if you don't have much time, it contrains the possible positions attainable? I know for myself what I can do when in a pre-set condition (eg. sparring, where we're restricted to two people and both know what's about to happen and can prepare their best for it), vs. what I can do when surprised, especially from an initially disadvantageous position (blindsided, etc.)

:) During the SNT level of Hung Fa Yi, we train specific methods that are formatted around the Saam Mo Kiu philo. The first level of Kiu Sao, Fau Kiu - Kiu Sao, teaches us how to go from a disadvantageous position (Fau Kiu) to the WC Formula (Weng Kiu in structural expression).

In a sense, it is like training 'emergency hands' in Yip Man Biu Ji. ie: Saam Bai Fut (3 bows to Buddha). I think other lineages also have this in their Biu Ji?

Mr. Ritchie- My current thinking is that its a bit like quantum mechanics in that the more accurately you try to measure it, the more you effect it, leaving always some uncertainty (you can know the ideal space but not in time, or you can react within the given time but not always within the ideal space).

:) I think this is answered by the Saam Mo Kiu philo. The goal is to get to the Weng Kiu by understanding the other two stages, which have to be lived/experienced. Always get to the range where simultaneous offense and defense is viable! At the Weng Kiu stage, the WC Formula is inherently expressed.

Mr. Ritchie- Now, I would love a terminator-esque setup with laser guided referencing and the cpu power to compute and adjust in real-time, but I'm not getting any younger and my simple organic mush of a brain doesn't work that way anway. LOL! So, in my current way of thinking, I think some form of "eye-balling" (the dreaded fuzzy-logic) has to occur, regardless of the scale (no one's operating on an astronomical nor quantum scale, so I think its just a matter of 3 points vs. 9 vs. 18 or what have you at this juncture).

:) I think I understand what you are saying. HFY has many ways to internalize these preset positions in space. The Saam Mo Kiu philo is a fundamental factor in training. It's like studying what it takes to become a pilot. Then going through the simulator, then actually flying to reach the state of 'auto-pilot' where you don't have to think about it.

Have your experiences been different? If so, how have you come to deal with this?

:) The Saam Mo Kiu philo helps me understand where my understanding is, the situation I am struggling with, and helps me see where I am in the scheme of things.

RR

Sorry for the late response. I am happy to see that communication (for the most part) is heading towards a mutual direction! Thanks to everyone who is sharing their understanding and questions.

Geezer

11-13-2002, 08:26 AM

Can the two resident "HECKLERS" "Statler and Waldorf" ,please step forward.

http://www.muppetcentral.com/_images/muppets/sandw.jpg

:D

Savi

11-13-2002, 09:11 AM

To all,

With all due respect, what is done and/or said between the Sifus should stays among the Sifus.
I do not see any place for us (who are not Sifus) to address them in a manner of 'putting them in their place' or telling them what to do.

I am not taking sides here, but aside from the fact that I am a student of Sifu Loewenhagen, I cannot speak for him and I cannot represent him without his request. I can only present and represent what I have learned from him.

Let's all please stay on a mutually beneficial path :).
-Savi.

R Loewenhagen

11-13-2002, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
Grow up Lowenhagen. I can express my opinions on what is
said on this list. Your Chan is coming apart in your post.

Joy,

My Chan requires restoration of harmony. Many young and uninformed people are influenced by websites such as these. The words you twist and spew distort reality and create great confusion. A true Chan practitioner is obliged to restore harmony. Since you insist on twisting all that is said, only a taste of reality will restore what you have perverted. I consider your posts misleading, insulting and demeaning to the degree that they require a challenge! Either you have the courage and skill to back up your words, or forever be silent! Again, your place or mine?

Richard

planetwc

11-13-2002, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by Chango
We train our reactions to be consistant with the formula!

<Snip>While I know that in training, there are many possible responses to a given input, in a fight, the best one should just come out. If one had to think about it, applying a "formula," it just wouldn't work.

<snip>If Wing Chun reflexes are honed by diligent correct training, then there is no decision to be made on what to do at any juncture within the context of a fight.

"correct training" The formula does not have to be realized every time while in use! The formula helps us realize what the correct training is! Drilling the proper time and space for a technique brings it to the reflexes. The correct tool in the correct time frame at the proper time and space! So how do you verify in your system that your training is correct training? How do you test it? how do you challenge it? (insert cricket chirps)

know when to shut up is the lesson learned here Grendel!

How do you drill it? How do you verify it? :rolleyes:

1. You drill this via the execution of the Wing Chun training syllabus of your school. Your mileage apparently may vary.

2. This is done under the watchfull eye and hands on adjustments and explanations of a Sifu. From that dialog flow the conceptual basis of Wing Chun reinforced by the forms, the proper shape and structure of said forms.

3. This is reinforced by exercises such as the forms, stances, Single arm dan chi, lop sau, stepping pak sau, double arm dan chi, poon sau, chi sau and gor sau. Followed by the dummy and the weapons.

4. As to ranging what do you think PART of the prime purpose of the dummy is for? It is a protractor against which you measure your range and position to a target. The same thing goes in the engagement process of chi sao and gor sau.

Rinse and repeat. Practice and refinement.

Position.
Structure.
Timing.
Sensitivity.

Rinse and repeat. Practice and refinement.

Direct constant hands on interaction with fellow students and most importantly with your instructor!

Rinse and repeat. Practice and refinement.

"If Wing Chun reflexes are honed by diligent correct training, then there is no decision to be made on what to do at any juncture within the context of a fight."

****ed Straight Skippy! Diligence on the part of the student to do the training. Diligence on the part of the student to learn from their mistakes in the process of chi sao and gor sao. Diligence on the part of the instructor to correct, to adjust, to demonstrate and to reinforce.

Rinse and repeat. Practice and refinement.

Building reflexive responses based on a set of core principles, tactics and the conceptual framework of Wing Chun Kuen according to the teachings of your lineage.

Rinse and repeat. Practice and refinement.

reneritchie

11-13-2002, 09:27 AM

azwingchun - IMHO, since we're all anthropomorphic and all engaging in a similar activity with similar goals, there will always be overlap in how we seek to achieve these goals. Since everyone is an individual, with their own unique way of learning and expressing what they learn (brains are not wired by mold), there will also always be different ways developed to package the methods for achieving these goals (a few lines of theme for some, a synopsis for others, a short story or novels for some, or expanded and annoted volumes for others). IMHO, also, arguing about the method to achieve is sometimes mistaken for arguing about the achievement itself.

Grendel - Due to my Sigung's passing last week, I did not have much time or desire to argue on message boards, especially about the same things ad nauseum infinitum. My views on the history of WCK are well known, and since this is the thread that I'm spending some time on, and it is application rather than history oriented, please forgive me if I attempt to remain on topic. You, of course, are likewise free to post where and how you see fit.

Akalish - Nice to have you at the tea table! Again, I'm going to leave specific approaches and labels out of it, just to stay productive, but we also believe in an ideal or best way of doing something, though we devote time to transitions if circumstances prevent us from attaining it, or we make a mistake (human error) and need to recover (ie. we just see something blasting in out of the corner of our eye and don't have time to determine if its right or left fist or even a kick or stick before it occupies our head space).

This is why I think 'Strategies for engagement...start long before contact is made' are a luxery I'd love to have every time, but in self-defense not one I think I can count on (can't count on there being a 'long before').

'but is there a possibility that his hook punch will land a second later due to his momentum or followthough' Yes, which would result in failure the way I learned because though you joined with the opponent, you did not intercept (cut off his offense) or sink (break his defense) with that joining. The way I learned, the flank is safer and better for when your skill is equal to or lower than the opponent (the default since often you won't know until the actual engagement), and the facing is faster for when your skill is better than your opponent. In the latter case, your skill is such that you can just walk in and finish (your joining intercepts and breaks in and of itself). Arguably, this is a skill few achieve, but it seems one our elderly, less healthy, ancestors made use of due to both their lack of physicality and their towering skill in later years.

With this, like most things, I see a risk/reward tradeoff. I honestly don't think there's ever a time (or very, very seldom a time) when you can have your cake and eat it too, so to speak, so part of our training is weighing the odds and determining what has the highest reward with the lowest risk, and sometimes personal factors play a part (maybe our left fook da is relatively week and our right tan da is a monster so we might play to our strengths in a real situation with nerves and confidences on the line). Of course, as we progress, this will hopefully lessen as a factor, but we don't always have the luxery of postponing when we need to use our WCK.

'kiu sau, chi sau, saan da'. I missed a lot of stuff last week, so if this was covered already, I apologize, but are you using those terms to cover ranges? The way I learned, we use San Sao for when there is no pre-existing contact, Chi Sao for when the bridges are in contact, and Mai San for when the bodies are in contact (closer than Chi Sao).

'ultimately you are place yourself in a situation where you can strike without being challenged or hit' Is a challenge different than a hit the way you're using the term? We would also strive for the ideal, for attaining a position where we can use our limbs freely on the opponent while there's are excluded from being used on us (we have flanked them, crossed their center, loaded their legs, folded their waist, etc.) As I said, though, we also train for when we can't, by virtue of circumstance, achieve this, but still need to do something (and hopefully transition to this).

'please look me up for some Wing Chun sharing.' Same goes for you if you ever make it up here Arctic ways... 8)

KJ - as usually Jik Jung Choi's correctness.

To the trolls/hijackers (you know who you are) - Please find your own non-productive thread to yell past each other on, and leave us to this one.

RR

yuanfen

11-13-2002, 09:33 AM

RL stated: told you more than once, that there is one most efficient position in space and time for any given body part within any any given strategy. Hung Fa Yi is the science that mapped out those most efficient positions....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unclear and loose use of the term science IMO...but no matter.
A "single most efficient position"- seems unrealistic and far too static because in two or more human situation many differnt variables are possible.
On substance...in a real martial or self defense situation as VTS pointed out there isnt time to think of the right map- let alone use it. And mapping without capturing all possible variables doesnt sound dynamic enough. listening energy upon bridge or any other touch opens up different possibilities- not just one
and body parts have to be able to adjust without losing balance..
Chi sao is not fighting but it is a superb way. Bridge work is important but continuous evovling chi sao trains all the joints
and moving and entering in good wing chun- without importing
verbose terminology. Stay the course with regular wing chun-
chi sao teaches you spacing and distancing- and in some circumstances you can attack without touching- getting in first.

Geezer-(quit trolling) not heckling -just critiquing straw man arguments.

planetwc

11-13-2002, 09:46 AM

This was America.

You have your OPINIONS, Joy has every right to his--here in America.

Or do you think we are in some communist or fascist country where these precepts don't apply?

Since when is this forum the property of Richard Lowenhagen and who appointed you the arbiter of Free Speech?

So essentlally your ultimate debating tactic is to threaten someone with physical violence? That is the "Chan" response?

YOU are not in Harmony so YOU require fighting with someone to restore your OWN state of mind? YOUR mental Suffering requires PHYSICAL VIOLENCE as YOUR ONLY RECOURSE?

Why don't you just ORDER your students to never read this forum under penalty of excommunication? Issue a Hung Fa Yi Fatwa against the KFO and non-HFY infidels?

I'd wonder if the tastes of reality you may experience soon will be from the police/sherrif's department of your local town.

Your "formula" appears to be: disagree with me and I'll threaten to beat you into silence.

Just saddening.

Originally posted by R Loewenhagen

Joy,

My Chan requires restoration of harmony. Many young and uninformed people are influenced by websites such as these. The words you twist and spew distort reality and create great confusion. A true Chan practitioner is obliged to restore harmony. Since you insist on twisting all that is said, only a taste of reality will restore what you have perverted. I consider your posts misleading, insulting and demeaning to the degree that they require a challenge! Either you have the courage and skill to back up your words, or forever be silent! Again, your place or mine?

Richard

Geezer

11-13-2002, 09:49 AM

Yuanfen/Joy Wrote>

Geezer-(quit trolling) not heckling -just critiquing straw man arguments.

So I'm the Troll:confused:, if you want to think that about me that is fine, but please if you're going to question everything that the HFY camp put forward atleast be a "man" and go and see it for yourself.
I know that you only teach a very "vetted select few" and you teach "Pure Wing Chun" so guessing by that you feel you would have allot to lose.

(HECKLE:to interrupt (esp. a public speech or speaker) with loud unfriendly statements or questions)

Just in case you didn't know what it meant, I would say what you're doing is very close to that wouldn't you:confused:

I'll wait patiently for your reply to this, NOT.

Me Ol China, I guess you haven't got the Royal Alberts after all;)

reneritchie

11-13-2002, 09:57 AM

Savi - Please call me Rene! Though I'm rapidly aging and graying, I still hope Mr. Ritchie is a ways off (until I have daughters and they start dating ;)

'I guess that's a black and white outlook.' - That would explain some of the differences that crop up in outlook, I think. Again, I'm avoiding labels and politics, so I'm not going to go into HFY or Shaolin or anything (just concerning myself with good application at this point), but in a way its akin to Bruce Lee's Jeet Kuen Do when he said that if, in the instant, you are intercepting, you are expressing JKD, and if you fail, you are not. That's a heck of a motivator, and I suppose if you're preparing for something stressful like combat, it doesn't hurt to set the bar in practice as high as possible.

'Imagine a vertical targeting grid' - That's a nice way to look at it (I'm a sci-fi fan so I'm picturing it in bright green with cool numbers flashing in the corners as target are aquired 8) ). I basically learned inside and outside (relative to each limb and the meridian line), high, middle, and low (likewise with legs matching legs). I guess that makes 12, but I've never really dwelt on the number and it was never really dwelt on to me. In addition to that, we have sets of 'measures' which are self-referential guidelines as to the functional range of the bridges (we tend not to term them 'positions' but 'paths' since they are actions rather than poses to us and must have integrity throughout, not just at both ends).

'refer to the last page of the Worshop Announcement Thread' I skipped that thread, and pretty much everything else last week, but I'll go back and read it after.

'primary and secondary offense and defense (ie Kiu Sao vs. Chi Sao),' I asked about this in my prior reply to Andy, so if I misunderstand, my apologies, but is this the 'sooner' vs. 'later' in dealing with a threat? If so, it follows my experience as well. We engage San Sao (what we call it) and Chi Sao engages only if that wasn't successful or if conditions (jumped by surprise, etc.) precluded it, then Mai San would be the next stage.

'unhindered simultaneous offense and defense' Just want to make sure I'm understanding your use here- is this term specifically referring to two limbs for you, or is it open to different incarnations (one limb attacks, one defends, the same limb defends and attacks at the same time, etc.)

'Each zone must be constantly occupied by the defender's designated body part' Do you personally also train for when you're caught out of position or at a disadvantage? If so, do you train to counter first then reset to your normal stategy, or to reset to your normal strategy than counter? For me, it's a time factor. If there's enough time, I reset, if not, I counter to create the time to reset.

'Unless you are the spider, it is not likely you (or your technique) will survive.' And if you're twoi spiders on a web, gotta hope you're the female most times 8)

'is to exist in the TSC where simultaneous offense and defense is optimal (most efficient).' - Okay, so then if I understand you, the ideal position is the ideal position as allowed by the available time. Does that then mean there are timeframes so limited that even the ideal position within that timeframe is dangerous to occupy? For example, I know some approaches where they'll even take a partial strike (shave it down to 20% or so, but not bother defending it completely) in order to have more time to achieve a better position.

'Are you familiar with this philo?' I've read what has been written on it, and I have a passing familiarity with learning models in general. My current pondering on it is that Weng Kiu sounds highly desirable but its one of those things that is not provable, only disprovable ('always' is only 'always' once you die without something having slipped past you, until then, its like the wild west with the next gunslinger (bridging opportunity) just around the corner 8) )

'In a sense, it is like training 'emergency hands' in Yip Man Biu Ji.' That makes a lot of sense, especially at the beginning when it can be a bit of a race to even get up to normal.

'Always get to the range where simultaneous offense and defense is viable!' - Yeah, it sounds nice, but I'm of the mindset where I expect the mugger to be Leung Jan or Wong Fei-Hung calibur! LOL! 'Always' on my sihingdai might just translate to 'ow! ow! ow!' with them! LOL!

'has many ways to internalize these preset positions in space.' I think the more we can internalize the better. The human brain can only handle a scant half-dozen or so (7 give or take I believe) functions under good conditions, far, far fewer under stress, so the more we can put into reflex, the more that has a chance to hold up when needed. (See Massaad Ayoob on 3 point alignment vs. 9 (I think) in combat shooting).

Actually, this to me is where I currently see the paradigm shift that led to WCK occuring - not something of form but of function, when some individual(s), regardless of who they were, came to understand how the body operates under stress, and developed a method for systematically and progressively programming it to excel under those conditions.

'Thanks to everyone who is sharing their understanding and questions.' Same here! And once again, trolls and hijackers, step off.

RR

R Loewenhagen

11-13-2002, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by planetwc
This was America.

You have your OPINIONS, Joy has every right to his--here in America.

Or do you think we are in some communist or fascist country where these precepts don't apply?

Sorry you feel the way you do.... but, if you read this and other threads, you will note that I refrain from responding to just about anything until someone has repeated an attack or insult in a demeaning manner on repeat occasions. Joy Chauhuri is one such individual. He starts these things, but has yet to show the proper courage to finish them. When you speak (or write) in a demeaning fashion towards others, expect a challenge! That is life! There are no free rides!

Richard

Rolling_Hand

11-13-2002, 10:38 AM

--someone has repeated an attack or insult in a demeaning manner on repeat occasions. Joy Chauhuri is one such individual.--RL
---------------------------------------------------------------

Someone, Something, Some *JOY*
Giving up one activity that blocks Yuenfen from getting on with the wild ride of WCK world.

humm...

yuanfen

11-13-2002, 10:41 AM

Loewenhagen sez: I consider your posts misleading, insulting and demeaning to the degree that they require a challenge! Either you have the courage and skill to back up your words, or forever be silent! Again, your place or mine
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Too many kung fu movies?

Lets get this straight- on an open wing chun forum like KFO-
I speak of wing chun. You are free to state your views on HFY
and I remain free to comment on HFY and distinguish between what seems to me to be "scientism" and science. As far as I can tell HFY does not have an edge over good wing chun- and
just repeating yourself and expressing anger and issuing challenges doesnt make it so IMO anyway..
When you characterize common representations of non HFY wing chun as "trivial", quite understandably to reasonable people
I express my clear disagreement with your views as expressed.
Savi seems to be interested in expressing and sharing his understanding of HFY- I dont fault him for that.
You apparently head a school- shouldnt you exercise greater restraint in some of your statements including challenges- and get
a grip on yourself? Ignoring your taunting on my courage is a measured and mature response and is to reasonable people I
would think no indication of lack of that quality or important virtue.

Rolling_Hand

11-13-2002, 10:47 AM

--I respectful request that everyone engaging in juvenile behavior, trolling, and thread hijacking refrain from mentioning Chan or WCK in your posts. If you are intent on serving as poor examples, and cluttering and cluster fricken the thread for the rest of us, at least have the good grace not to tar us, our art, or major religions with your greasy, grimy brushes. We, and they, deserve better.--RR
-----------------------------------------------------------------

RR-Treat yourself to something special you've desired for a long time. Go to look at yourself in the mirror.

humm...

AndrewS

11-13-2002, 10:49 AM

A general question on this time/space thing-

the implication seems to be that you match your posture to your opponent's posture, presumably changing as they change. Accurrate? Through what distances do you pursue this strategy?

Once you're in a position if the other person keeps position are you motionless?

How do you 'know' what may come from a given position/range in precontact? Let's say a left lead, 'natural' boxing stance about 16 inches outside of range for landing an extended jab on a fairly long-limbed six foot opponent. . .

Richard,

excuse me, did you just challenge a 70 year old man (sorry if I got your age wrong, Joy, but I heard you have some milage on you, though you wear it well) to a fight? And try to justify it by some form of Buddhist code of honor?

Ya know what, if I've got Joy's age anywhere near right, you're almost as much of an *sshole as Rorion Gracie.

Later,

Andrew

reneritchie

11-13-2002, 10:57 AM

RH - You're right, and thanks. It's out of there.

yuanfen

11-13-2002, 11:14 AM

Andrew S sez:Richard,

excuse me, did you just challenge a 70 year old man (sorry if I got your age wrong, Joy, but I heard you have some milage on you, though you wear it well) to a fight? And try to justify it by some form of Buddhist code of honor?

Ya know what, if I've got Joy's age anywhere near right, you're almost as much of an *sshole as Rorion Gracie.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Hahaha- but I seek excatly zero consideration because of "age"
or its travails..I deal with what is before me.

Now if enough money was on the table and legal issues were cleared can a public match with Garret Gee be arranged- i still would have years on him.Speculation not a challenge. Gracie sr. has a year or two on me
but I understand he has some health problems.A non sequitur- In his intervews Rickson comes out as a decent and honorable person. But I wouldnt know.
Ain"t life humorous?