The Inconsistency in demonstrated skill among masters?

[Rolling Elbow]

Friends..,

Haven't posted in this section for a while and I do not mean to be controversial. However, when I stumbled upon some clips of William Cheung and Leung Ting off of http://www.mcdojo.com (under miscellaneous clips) and I finally got to see two people who I had thought would be incredible take us through their demos, I was left speachless at how poorly they performed and made an art that usually impresses me look soo BAD.Static and unable to flow (Cheung), akward and powerless without balance (Ting)

I have always loved trapping and am a huge fan of the Mook Jong as well as some of Wing Chuns other principals. It is a fantastic martial art and one that i have much respect for. I have found people who really impress me with their movement as well as the drills they teach. None of these men, carry themselves with as much pomp as the two I mentioned above. Even when you see Emin Botzepe in action, his flavour of Wing Chun looks as flavourless (although much more solid) then his teacher and grandmaster's looks..

When I compare what I saw above to what I have seen from people like Augustine Fong or Duncan Leung, it amazes me how drastically skill will vary across the board. I would like to hear people's comments on this and if there are any other wing chun masters that have impressed you or dissapointed you. I enjoy looking into the more solid ones but find that there are allot fewer than I had thought. It is almost as bad as American Buijinkan kabillionth dans..(yes my system has crappy teachers too!) What I enjoy the most is that if you have a look at Fong or Duncan Leung, you usually do not see a guy clad in robes but someone hanging out in sneakers and teaching comfortably with emphasis on REAL attacks.Anyway, no hate email. I'd like to hear what others have to say.

thanks.

[yuanfen]

I get into enough trouble any ways- so I punt.
I think that you will primarily get lineage driven views and comments as responses..

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Rolling Elbow
However, when I stumbled upon some clips of William Cheung and Leung Ting off of http://www.mcdojo.com (under miscellaneous clips) and I finally got to see two people who I had thought would be incredible take us through their demos, I was left speachless at how poorly they performed and made an art that usually impresses me look soo BAD.Static and unable to flow (Cheung), akward and powerless without balance (Ting)

Michael,

Stop trolling. And write shorter sentences. :D

Regards,

[Rolling Elbow]

Yeah, i wirte long sentences but that is because half the time i write them at work and you have to be fast man!!!!!

Not a troll, lets be objective..lineage driven views aside, somebody has got to be asking themselves the same question. Did you guys have a look at the clips?

[yenhoi]

I agree, numerous 'masters' demonstrations of skill are inconsistent............

I also think it very hard to judge any aspect of someones skills by a internet .video

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Rolling Elbow
Yeah, i wirte long sentences but that is because half the time i write them at work and you have to be fast man!!!!!

Not a troll, lets be objective..lineage driven views aside, somebody has got to be asking themselves the same question. Did you guys have a look at the clips?
You may not mean to troll, but this is a typical troll kind of post, which invites arguments and feuds.

As for the clips I didn't find, consider it a generous act for them to be posted on their original websites. Just posting clips of one's self shows a disdain for the criticism of others and confidence in one's ability, I believe. It's easy to misinterpret a clip if one doesn't know the context.

Regards,

[planetwc]

Here is a clip of the Master of Almightiness of WT:

http://www.wingtsun.zigzag.pl/start_strony.htm

It is under the Animaciok section.
The first clip. Leung Ting vs his 5th Level Practioner Maday Norbert. Maday looks as strong as an ox!

Carefull it is in DiVX format, but they include the codecs as the last link.



Traditional Wing Chun Grandmaster William Cheung's site has some video clips, but I could not get them to display. I'm looking around for some other clips of him.

[Rolling Elbow]

You know, then by that token, we might as well all agree if what i am doing is considered trolling. REgardless of how confiden they are of themselves... their confidence is not what is suspect here. What is suspect is whether or not their skills can be said too match the image they have built up of themselves. I think this is fair to say and i am willing to hear for or against on this one. I am not taking sides, i just find it strange. . Besides, i think we can all agree that there are far too many masters out there right? Yip Man never made them masters, they made themselves masters when they broke away and formed their own branches. But anyway, lets try to gather as many clips of these masters as possible so that they can be compared.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Rolling Elbow

Besides, i think we can all agree that there are far too many masters out there right?

Not enough masters, in my opinion---a lot of self-promoted no-nothing monkeys.


Yip Man never made them masters, they made themselves masters when they broke away and formed their own branches.

As has often been noted, master is a meaningless term. The very best in my experience are satisfied to be called teacher or sifu and command respect of others through their knowledge and abilities, not titles.

Last student of Yip Man. Big deal. Best student is an entirely different matter. Who got the whole enchilada?


But anyway, lets try to gather as many clips of these masters as possible so that they can be compared.
What are you looking for? Forms, chi sao, beimo, death matches? I've never seen a video or clip that would make me want to study with anyone else.

Regards,

[Rolling Elbow]

Chi sao, mook jong form, applications, even cheesy demos... you can tell allot from the way each man moves rather than how he demos. For example, the link that was provided to the eastern european Vin Tsun above had some decent stuff. The head instructor looks like he can hold his own so that's fine. What i am after are the masters themselves.. i'll post aa link to anything i find.

[quiet man]

Some teachers are better than others. Some teachers are all words and no skill. I'm not naming any names here, just stating the obvious. But I don't believe in decrying somebody's skill until you've had a chance to go 1on1 with him (and not even then). Look at yourself, not at the others.
If you can't say something good about someone, then don't say anything, especially if nobody asked you. Of course I think my sifu is good and others maybe aren't so good, but that's just me. It's bad manners to go around rectifying opinions.
My sifu started his WC training under Leung T'ing in 1978., when LT first came to Croatia. But he was dissatisfied with what he was learning, so 9 yrs later he went WSL and never looked back. I think that says enough about my sifu's opinion. But he don't go around badmouthing Leung T'ing (or anyone else, for that matter). He told me that, when you ask HK masters "What do you think about Leung T'ing/William Cheung/Augustine Fong/Jim Fung/...?", they just say "He's my sijuk", or something like that, and that's it. End of story.
When my sifu was younger, he would bring various magazines to the late master Wong, with pictures of various "masters" performing "wing chun", and ask: "How can he do that, why don't you go there and kick his a5s, why don't you teach these people a lesson...?"; and master Wong would smile, put away the magazines, and say: "Why don't you and me go and practice some Wing Chun?". My sifu says: "I didn't understand it then, I couldn't understand it; but I understand it now". Hope this helps.

However, I think if you're not gonna display your skill properly, then don't display it at all. If I see a video of yours that I think is pure cr*p, dont' come to me talking "Oh, I wasn't trying, I was having a bad day, I can show you something better...". You don't get a second chance.

(I hop yu cann excus my poore English :D )

[black and blue]

My introduction to Wing Chun was with Maday Norbert and the Hungarian WT branch. He IS as strong as a mule, but he's very, very good.

Great sensitivity and feel, very relaxed, punches as hard as the best of 'em. I've never seen Leung Ting, but I'd imagine he's very good also.

I fully agree, the only way to judge is to get stuck in and have a go with various people/lineages/branches etc.

Duncan

Ps. Yuenfen... if I ever get out your way I'll bring my plastic pipe LOL :)

[joy chaudhuri]

Originally posted by black and blue


Ps. Yuenfen... if I ever get out your way I'll bring my plastic pipe LOL :) [/B]
-------------------------------------------
You would be welcome. I will provide the pipe. Yours may not make it--- airlines are choosy these days.

[yenhoi]

Rolling_hand:

I agree with you.

I dont think its 'right' for those 'masters' to do what they 'do'. But, I also dont care what anyone else does, how they talk about themselves, who they talk to, what they say and do when they interact, who they badmouth or who's ass they are kissing, or what image 'they' present to 'them' about any 'art', specifically, Wing Chun.

I personally dont care for the public status of any institution, person, or whatever a "art" is.

Its also not my place to correct other people if they want to pretty themselves up and sell whatever it is they are selling, and attempt to look like whatever it is they are trying to look like. If I did think it was my place to correct whatever I see as a bad representation to the public of whatever it is I think is being represented wrongly, then I would then classify myself as "no better than" those I wish to correct for the very same reasons I wish to correct those people for.


So I agree with you, but -- who cares.

[tparkerkfo]

I keep telling myself not to post any more.....

I like trolling topics as long as they are honest. I was once a newbie and had many controlversial questions. I still wonder about topics similar to what Rolling Elbow brought up.

Well, the first thing I can say is video is a poor medium. I remember a clip where my teacher rocked my world with a demonstration. I went flying back and all. It was simply amazing. Then I looked at the video later and it was not very impressive on film. One of those things. The best I can say is put your self on the opposit end of Leung Ting or William Cheung and see if the same holds true.

Yip Man was not a very consistant teacher apparently. At times he was said to be relucntant. He taught a handful of people. Mostly the begining students and several private people. But latter he left much of the training to others like Wong Sheung Leung and others. I see several distinct camps, and there are probably a few others. Also, not every one who studied with Yip Man became a wing chun god. I would say very few really reached a high level. Others reached a moderate level. Look at your own school and see how many people are tops. Then, each person has there own perspectives on what and how they were taught. Over the years, their POV's could have been modified slightly. This happens in all arts. Choy Lif Fut, Hung Gar, Kenpo, etc all talk about differences and huge debates have stemmed. Other arts like Tai Chi, Southern Mantis, and White Crane seem to have evolved into sperate arts even.

Just some thoughts
Tom

[anerlich]

I think it's fair to expect that a post like the initial one casts doubt on the skill of various practitioners, and as such would annoy or offend some of their more gullible and less mature followers.

You seem to feel you can judge a person's skill from less than a minute od grainy video. I suggest you are incorrect.

That said, I agree that too many CMA practitioners hype up thier abilities to ludicrious, even physically impossible, levels, and concoct outrageous stories about their backgrounds, e.g. the TWC version of WC history.

Anyone conferring the title "Master of Almightiness" on anyone else has arguably lost all critical facilities. Anyone accepting such a title has lost the ability for self-criticism and IMO is out of touch with the real world. This is not to say thier KF is crap, just that they have started to believe thier own bullsh1t.

[AndrewS]

Hey Andy,

it seems one of the first things to go once someone starts practicing a martial art is the ability to apply a little common sense or critical thinking to the material presented. Cults of personality composed of people looking for ultimate answers grow up around unscrupulous and delusional 'masters'. Reality is as the head of the system declares it, and 'the big lie' becomes s.o.p., with people so ego-unformed as to be unable to disagree with their 'master' chanting the new 'truth' in unison.

At a certain point, whatever the figureheads are up to, it falls upon the people directly involved in training and teaching on a daily basis to set the tone for their juniors and peers (and sometimes immediate seniors), to step back, and act with sense and sanity.

Defending 'Master of Comprehension', 'Supreme Being', or 'Ultimate Kuen Lord' as a title begs reason. At best a person with sense and taste will walk away and realize such excesses are the stuff of marketing.

When senior students are suddenly made into unpeople, pariahs, denigrated where they were once praised, you don't have to buy into the lie.

If some *sshole tells you 'a hook is a stupid technique', find someone with a little boxing experience and put some pillows on them, don't buy the hype.

If someone claims all 'WC sucks' with references to the stupidity of all other lines- make some friends from other systems, check out some tape of WSL and think for yourself.

Whether or not someone was the last student of Yip Man or lineage heir, traditional, modified, etc. - the real question is whether or not your art is honest in and of itself. Not your teacher's, or your 'master's' or some vainglorious lineage. Yours.

If you don't set that example of honesty, but instead fall back on the claims and laurels of others, all you do is perpetuate the bullsh*t.

I know this post will set off certain folks in the HFY crowd. If before the explosion comes y'all can step back and reread the above, it may save you some problems.

I was at a seminar about five years ago- big summer camp thing. Two friends and I were up drinking and talking, and I brought up the question which had arisen in my mind in the training hall the day before- 'Who here will be the one's to sell us out?' I know the answer to that now.

Later,

Andrew

P.S. Does this count as threadjacking?

[Chango]

I think there is a misunderstanding here,

<snip>I know this post will set off certain folks in the HFY crowd. If before the explosion comes y'all can step back and reread the above, it may save you some problems.

No "the HFY crowd" would not be "set off" buy your coments until you put our name on it. :)

Our system is where we find perfection. It is understood that our ansestors are human. I have to say that I cannot recall any stories shared by my Sifu or Siguang on thier fights or accomplishments. So no I don't see a almighty mind set with them. I do see however a healthy respect for the information and attention to detail when engaged in discussions on the system. You see a very humble approach to the system understanding that the system is responsible for the skills gained. So what you are saying about one person's status versus another does not pertain to the HFY family.

Chango (SGS) :cool: