Mid Martial Arts crisis

[General Kwei]

I normally post on this site under a different name but for personal reasons wanted to keep my information private.
I have been studying an art for a few years now, and have invested quite a bit of time in it. I have been of late, doing about 20-25 hours a week training and spending plenty of money to meet with people at the top of my line to train with them.
Lately I have had some doubts. I am a big guy and my art is more internal. It really doesn't matter except that it takes quite a bit of investment, in time mostly, to become good at an internal art, and I have come to the conclusion that I got into martial arts to fight and I want to learn to fight, quickly. I am not in a huge hurry but I am of the belief that if I am learning to fight, a year is reasonable to become a good fighter, not the best mind you, not even close, just better then average.
So now I have a conundrum. Do I drop my art and learn something else? Do I continue on doubting myself in my art and knowing it will be several years before I am any sort of good fighter?
I am not getting any younger, I would like to fight in a tournemant or two before I get too old.

Any suggestions, support, help?

[wushu chik]

Can't you do both? Seriously, why don't you and some other students get together and start a sparring/fighting club kinda thing. You guys can all practice together outside of class...and the practice will well advance you. Or, try going to a few different schools and see if they have an open sparring night. You might be able to join in on some other schools....differernt styles, that might have some good stuff that you can learn, again, which will advance you quicker, and make you better!

I've taken my students to different schools so that they can spar on open sparring night. And we've had MANY visitors to our open sparring sessions! It works, seriously! Many of my students have gone from crappy or sometimes ok, to really good, and NATIONAL winners in sparring/fighting!! It's worth a shot, and something to look into. If you really like your art, don't just bag it because there's a small prob....try to go outside the circle to fix it!!

Just a thought!!

~Wen~

[MightyB]

You're 29.

I just started San Shou fighting and I'm 28.

My friend got me into it and he's 32.

You're right. You're no spring chick anymore. My advice is to look at what you've already learned and--- Fight.

It's what I did. I was going through somewhat of a crisis similar to yours. Mine was that I was at a martial road block and I wasn't able to progress anymore in my art. So, I found out that in Chinese martial arts, the highest level you could attain was called Mon Gei which means "no mind". It's literally where you have no thoughts about yourself in a conflict, you just go. I thought what could be more intense than San Shou? So I fought in one. I lost, but I've learned more through that losing than I could've in just going to class for the next 10 years! Guess what? I'm going to fight again, and again, and again, until I'm about 32 or 33. Maybe even longer if Shamrock wins!(he's 38).

My point is that maybe you don't need another style, besides it'd take too long to start out fresh now if you want to fight, maybe you should just fight. It's like losing your virginity all over again. You might be a little nervous the first time, but, once it's over with, you'll want to do it again, and again, and again, and again...:D Guess what all fighters know? There's no such thing as internal or external or even style... it's just fighting. Try it, you'll see.

The B

[General Kwei]

Wushu chik, it's a good suggestion, and we have tried it, but the issue goes deeper then that.
See, it takes time to become a good fighter at any art, but for internal arts it can sometimes take longer, whether that is built in or not. Many arts can teach you some basics within a year.
So you see the problem is that I don't really have the choice. Some of the things I have learned could be applied in combat, but there is much I am missing. I feel if I got into a street scuffle at this moment, I would be in trouble. If I chose to spar at this time I might be doing more damage to my training then good.
The other issue I guess is trying to decide if it is right for me, the art itself. I am in pretty good shape and a big guy and I wonder sometimes if that shouldn't be taken advantage of, if that makes sense?

MightyB, its good advice as well, I had even look in the direction of sanshou.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by General Kwei
...
See, it takes time to become a good fighter at any art, but for internal arts it can sometimes take longer, ... I feel if I got into a street scuffle at this moment, I would be in trouble. If I chose to spar at this time I might be doing more damage to my training then good...


And this one time, in band camp,

Someone's been telling you stoooories.

[ewallace]

Have you considered dropping by a boxing gym? That would be good for you since you can learn some basics and then put them to use against someone who doesn't want you to hit them. Plus it really would not interfere too much with the principles of your art.

Or try a BJJ school. That would definitely not interfere with your art...aside from it not being chinese, which could cause some problems! :) I cannot begin to explain what a humbling experience it is to go up against someone experienced in ground fighting for the first time.

[TaoBoy]

Don't give up your current style.
Compliment it with something else.
You do an internal style, so choose an external style.
You want to learn to fight quickly, so how about boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, shootfighting etc.?

Complimenting your base with another style is great. I'm doing it now and I feel much more confident in my own ability (in all the styles I train).

[mantis108]

These days, I am more and more a firm believer in a few things:

Suppose you are interested in learning to apply what you learn in class in a combative form again a resisting partner

1) Within the first class (2 to 3 hours) you should have a general idea of what combat elements (ie striking, kicking, Chin Na, etc...) are in the style. You don't need to be able to execute them but as least you know where and how they fit in the style.

2) Within the first class, you should come away with 1 to 5 workable techniques. I will go with 10 but 1 to 5 is mostly realistic especially in a large size class.

3) Within the first 72 hours or 100 days of training (whichever that is within your scheduel), you should have notable difference in physical condition and a reasonable & workable knowledge of hand to hand/one on one combat. This is to say you wouldn't be dazed and confused if attacked nor would you be "fairy punching" (pardon the term) someone.

4) Consistancy in training focus and procedures. A progressive program is also a must. This is most important if free sparring is not encouraged by the instructor. Now I only put this in for those who argue for the "deadly techniques". If the instructor said he is about self defense but only teach you to do forms and he doesn't bother with 2 men drills and all, claiming his techniques are too deadly to work with, I will try work through the first 3 months and observe any improvement on the situation. If it's not improved, I will say it is time to leave. Nowadays the choices are plentiful. One shouldn't have to waste his/her resources on an unrealistic dream.

Just some thoughts

Mantis108

[Liokault]

If you are learning an art all ready then all you need to do is learnto apply it and a year is plenty of time.

Ok what you do is find as many differant guys who will spar with you full contact as you can and then spar with them as ofton as you can.

you will soon learn what ypu can and can not pull off, what will or will not work , what you need to work on and most of all weather you really have what it takes to be a fighter.

[General Kwei]

Thanks for the advice so far guys and gals!

Water Dragon, what do you mean?

ewallace - there is gymn close to where I am at a freind of mine goes to. They do boxing, Kali, some grappling and others from an instructor I guess who comes highly recommended, I am going to stop by there a few times and check it out.

Taoboy - probably what I will do, not abandon what I am learning, because it can prove to be valuable later in life.

Mantis108 - "Nowadays the choices are plentiful. One shouldn't have to waste his/her resources on an unrealistic dream"

It's very true, you just have to be careful you dont hook up with a dud. In this case the guy I train under isn't a dud, I just think it's mostly an incompatible within myself and the art

[yenhoi]

Truely a pearl of wisdom:

There's no such thing as internal or external or even style... it's just fighting. Try it, you'll see.

The B

- MightyB

[HuangKaiVun]

Listen to Liokault, General Kwei.

He's right on the money.

That's because he's a kung fu guy who CAN fight.

[David Jamieson]

As well, a little self doubt will keep your head on straight. Especially in fighting.

peace

[Water Dragon]

General Kwei, What I'm saying is, if you've been training for more than a year, and don't have an idea of how to make your stuff work for real. You wont be a "master" of course, but you should be able to at least be able to hit hard and not take too many shots in return. One of two things is happening.

1. Either the guy dosn't want to teach you, and hence wont (it happens)
2. the guy doesn't know how to teach you.

There's no way I can tell which one it is. The third is he tried to teach you, but you screwed off and didn't put the work in so it's your fault. I don't really like consider the third, but it is a possibility in all cases.

There are schools that are considered "internal" that can teach you how to handle yourself in short amount of time. That's what I meant by stories. Within a year at the most, your body should have begun to develop and you should be a noticeably better fighter than the day you started training.

[nospam]

Dude...I agree with you. Drop the internal art and try muay thai or some hybrid thereof. I wouldn't get into a gung fu school, as you'll more than likely learn garbage and end up wasting another 9+ months! Harsh. You bet. But I'm thinking of your best interests.

Give it a whirl and go have fun...knock some heads and better yet, as your nursing that rib and walking with a casual limp (albeit temporary), know that you are doing something you just plain 'ol like to do- been there and done that. There ain't no other feeling greater than a **** good sparring session.

Then, as you become amngst the better...go back to the internal art. What you have learned in this system to date will travel well when assimilated with your Muay Thai. You might even want to try Kempo, they are also known for more 'reality' based fighting. I'm sure you will realise that not only your fighting ability will become greater when combined with the internal, YOU..the person...will more than likely taken great strides in a good direction. You have measured yourself and have come up wanting. Switch to another system that concentrates on what you feel you want - go for the outcomes. I am sure at that point and in that time, you will be happier and ready for more...

nospam.
:cool:

[General Kwei]

Water Dragon, ok, I see what you are saying. I woul dlike to interject a third option however:

The guy who teaches the art, knows his stuff, more then anyone I have met so far in the martial arts world. While he does sometimes have a problem with transfering that knowledge, the real problem is he does martial arts full time, 6-8 hours a day and is a patient man. What I am starting to figure out is he is teaching his students like they have 6-8 hours a day of training available and unfortunately they do not. I train 4 hours a day roughly and feel I should be much ****her down the line then I am.
What does this mean? Well, while I would acknowledge his mastery of the art, there is no doubt there, I do not have the time he does, to put into the training and so am choosing to pursue something to which I can do more justice.
If someone had the patience, and the time, I would definitely send them his way, but I have to acknowledge my limitations.

[Water Dragon]

Hmmm, 4 hours a day? I make do with about an hour, 2 if I'm lucky.

Let me ask a question. Are you doing heavy cardio? Are yo doing some type of resistance/strenght training? Do you do your forms for power and speed as well as alignment and mechanics? Are you drenched in sweat at the end of each workout or have you ever puked after a wrokout from exertion? Do you try your stuff out on classmates/friends whiule they're out to get you?

A lot of times, the Chinese just assume that you are doing this type of training and wont even tell you to. The internal type training works great if you have this base, doesn't work at all if you don't. If you haven't been doing the above, try it for about 3 months. That just might be the answer. Again, I don't know.

[Suntzu]

this sounds sooo familiar… if you are not getting what u want… move on… take up san shou, muay thai, whatever… learn those basics… incorporate your 'internals with those basics… its gonna happen anyway… u are not going to unlearn what u already know and have ingrained... continue to practice your internals on your own... if u decide to change styles, when u spar throw in some 'internal' technique... IME, the techniques that you have ingrained will come out naturally anyway...

[SevenStar]

bro...with 4 hours a day, after a year you should be able to make techniques work. What does the 4 hours consist of?

[Suntzu]

I am pretty sure he has a handle on his technique… sounds like a confidence issue to me… he just doesn’t KNOW if they will work when he needs 'em… we've all been there…

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by General Kwei

See, it takes time to become a good fighter at any art, but for internal arts it can sometimes take longer, whether that is built in or not. Many arts can teach you some basics within a year.
So you see the problem is that I don't really have the choice. Some of the things I have learned could be applied in combat, but there is much I am missing. I feel if I got into a street scuffle at this moment, I would be in trouble.


I must disagree on the idea of the "internals" taking more time to teach someone to fight then the "externals".
With proper combat focused training, in the period of one year you should definately be able do some powerfull efective stuff.

[Sleemie]

Am I "hearing" you guys correctly?? You're suggesting that someone who has never learned to spar go out and spar with people without any guidance or training? Doesn't sound like a good idea to me....but I'm pretty much a beginner. From what I've been learning in our sparring class and the amount of work that we've been putting in just to get a good foundation, I can't see how it would benefit someone to just jump in and begin sparring. There are so many things that he would be doing wrong in terms of technique that would eventually become habitual. Sparring and forms are two different worlds....yeah, you incorporate SOME of the basics taught in forms class, but for the most part those techniques are designed to be used in a sparring session, particularly with gloves on.

[cogg]

General Kwei what internal art do you study?

[Xebsball]

Or you can spar without gloves and use the non-glove based moves, the traditional moves.
Personally, all the moves i do in sparring are found on the forms of my system and if not they must be backed up by the principles of the art.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Sleemie
Am I "hearing" you guys correctly?? You're suggesting that someone who has never learned to spar go out and spar with people without any guidance or training? Doesn't sound like a good idea to me....but I'm pretty much a beginner. From what I've been learning in our sparring class and the amount of work that we've been putting in just to get a good foundation, I can't see how it would benefit someone to just jump in and begin sparring. There are so many things that he would be doing wrong in terms of technique that would eventually become habitual. Sparring and forms are two different worlds....yeah, you incorporate SOME of the basics taught in forms class, but for the most part those techniques are designed to be used in a sparring session, particularly with gloves on.

he has plenty of guidance - he has a teacher, right? since he's training , he knows the techniques, now he needs to learn how to use them. Of course, he should start with light sparring, and he can work his way. boxers and thai boxers usually start sparring within three months. in bjj, you are rolling right from the beginning, and in judo after a few weeks or so, depending on how long it takes you to learn your falls.

just jumping in teaches you how to deal with taking hits, and it will help you to develop your own style, as you will begin using the techniques you are most comfortable with, which may or may not change as you progress. once he starts sparring and has some experience, then he can start refining his techniques and working things like timing and distance. check out the "Progression" thread and look at the programs there.

[Sleemie]

He has a teacher, but I thought the issue was that his teacher is not teaching him sparring, and I THOUGHT I read where someone suggested to just get together with his buddies or other martial arts people and jump in and spar with them. Like I was saying, I personally don't think one can take what they've learned in a forms/handset class and jump in to sparring using that without any instruction and guidance on how to do that. It's one thing if you're doing open hand sparring where you're specifically doing the techniques in the form, but if you're doing traditional sparring, as is in the tournaments he mentioned, that's a whole different world because as much as my school tries to preach it, and i'm sure others on here would preach it, you do not do the same moves in your forms that you do in sparring with the gloves and all that stuff. To me, that ends up becoming more like kick boxing, regardless of what style your forms are and what techniques are incorporated in your forms. When you go to the tournemants and watch people spar, they're not really doing Hung Gar, Mantis, Eagle Claw, etc. and you can't differentiate between them other than some subleties in how they do certain techniques.

[SevenStar]

I agree with that, to an extent. I think as long as his instructor does have him doing drills, if he drills the stuff enough, he will get used to the motion, then he can work it into sparring on his own. The jey to using a technique is making it yours. You have to KNOW the technique, and be comfortable executing it. You have to drill it repeatedly so that your body instinctively knows how to do it and then you start doing it with resistance so that you know WHEN to do it. If his instructor doesn't have him drilling it, and has not shown him the principle of the technique, then no, he likely will not be able to spar with it.

[General Kwei]

Ok, what do my 4 hours consist of: Let me preface this by saying that I dont do anything tha I dont believe isnt helping me in some way....

I get up in the morning and do 2 hours. (The other thing I have to say is I cant divulge the style I do right now for private reasons)

I start out with an hour of warmups designed to well, warm me up, but also to gain better control over my body, help with structure and all the things important to the system.
I then do 45 minutes to an hour of forms work, I have a few forms but I go over each of them several times.

In the afternoon when I get home from work I do 10 minutes of warmups stretching.
I hit the bag for about 30 minutes
Do another 30 minutes of forms work
And then usually do about 20-30 minutes of drilling, those I can do on my own, and sometimes take time to run for 20 minutes or so.
Every other day I take 40 minutes of my morning workout to do some weight training.

Waterdragon, I train pretty hard, and I have had some workouts that have been pretty tough but normally after I am done I feel worn out but good, energized anyway.

On the weekends I only do between 2-3 hours because of family obligations.

Xebsball- Alot of people believe the same thing you do about the internal arts. The only thing I can say, and not in the form of an argument because these arguments lead usually to a lot of nonsense on everybodies parts, is that all of the really good practitioners of internal arts I know, are guys who do 4-6 and sometimes 8 hours a day in training and have been doing it for a minimum of 10 years.

[Suntzu]

2-person drills??? i didn't see any of that on ur breakdown... u need somebody tryin to hit u... a mannnn... u got alota dicipline... 2 hours in the morning???? what time u get up???

[Liokault]

I get up in the morning and do 2 hours. (The other thing I have to say is I cant divulge the style I do right now for private reasons)

Its TKD isnt it?...eh?...isnt it TKD......I bet it is....no need to be ashamed of it?

[SevenStar]

I noticed you didn't list any time with your teacher. How often do you get to work with him? all of your stuff sounds like you're doing it solo. I do 3 - 5 hours a day also, but at least 2-3 is with an instructor 4 days a week.

[MA fanatic]

General:
First, you should address your concerns to your teacher. A good teacher will understand and adjust. But, most internal teachers will tell you tales of great internal master legends and tell you that you are merely training to obtain some untangeable skill level most have never seen. I suggest, try that gyn which teaches bjj, mauy Thai and Kali. You'll get an eye opener. I garauntee that you'll leave your first class with functional fighting techniques, and one hell of a workout. Kali, however, may feel awkward at first, but very applicable for the street. As for Muay Thai and bjj, assuming you have some coordination, at 29, you should be a good fighter (no top athlete, but you'll know enough for the street...take downs, kicks, punches, chokes, ground attacks, elbows, knees, working the combinations, etc. etc.). It's your right to learn to defend yourself. When you pay for a martial arts class, if you feel that you're not learning to fight, you should drop out. I even knew some Tai Chi instructors who focused on sparring, push hands, and pressure point training. That's martial arts, don't bother with other bs.
I would also suggest exploring some supplemental martial arts video material. There are some great videos on combat by JKD
instructor Paul Vunak, full contact fighter and grappler Marco Lala
(www.fightingsecrets.com), Pankration champion and NHB
champion Erik Paulson (www.Erikpaulson.com) and Russian
special forces trainer Vlad Vasiliev (www.russianmartialart.com ...the style he teaches is both external and internal fighting). There are more, just look into what you want to learn most. We're living in the Golden Age of
Martial Arts where instruction is available to everyone from all
over the world. But, most important, just get to
a fighting school! It's really not too late for you to start another
art. (Even if it was, it doesn't mean you should continue wasting
your time on something you don't have your heart set on...or
not train at all.)
MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

Oh, and don't worry about your teacher. He teaches for money.
That makes you a consumer. And, you're not happy with the product. We can debate this issue of, trusting your master and his knowledge, on another thread. But, at this point you're responsible to yourself and your family. If you go to a Mua Thai gym, they will not throw you into a sparring ring. Usually there are instructos and senior students who work with pairs of students after a class warmup. You'll learn stances, movement, punches, kicks, combinations, perries, defenses against attacks, sweeps, etc. etc. before you're told to spar. But, you'll be getting plenty of heavy bag and focus mit workout, as well as partner drills. As for bjj, you'll be grappling your first week. You'll also be leaving the class with solid knowledge you could apply right away.
A good teacher will work-in approaches and tactics to match your body type. I have trained with some great bjj fighters who can show you the same technique but applied differently and set up differently so it fits into my body type. No offense to internal styles (I have seen some good internal stylists, and some guys who trained for 10 years and still couldn't hurt a fly), but I'd leave.
MA fanatic

[General Kwei]

sorry guys, I forgot to mention class 2-3 times a week, 2-3 hours each. It just depends on how many people show up and how much energy is in the class that day.
As for two person drills, including class time I work with two guys once a week for 2 hours at a time, BUT, we still dont do any sparring, its all drilling for sensitivity and such.

MA Fanatic, thanks for the links I will check them out!

[SevenStar]

Are you the only one in the class that wants to spar? If not, get a group of students together, and you all can spar on your own time. After you've had a few sessions, talk to your sifu and tell him that you all have been sparring and would like his help and knowledge to further your sparring. If that doesn't work, you may want to crosstrain in a style that does spar.

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by General Kwei

Xebsball- Alot of people believe the same thing you do about the internal arts. The only thing I can say, and not in the form of an argument because these arguments lead usually to a lot of nonsense on everybodies parts, is that all of the really good practitioners of internal arts I know, are guys who do 4-6 and sometimes 8 hours a day in training and have been doing it for a minimum of 10 years.

The more years you do it, the better you get. But it doesnt take 10 years to be able to fight.

[TkdWarrior]

i always thougth MA is for fighting be it internal or external if u r not getting it then it's possible that there's something wrong...
yup u r rite that it takes to get quite good in internal but it doesn't take time to learn to fight...
i do Taiji(4 months) n my teacher showed me how to fight with taiji even tho i wasn't concerned with my fighting skills cuz i hav spend time in other arts(external)
-TkdWarrior-

[MA fanatic]

There is nothing wrong with just getting some friends to practice sparring, but one does have to initiallly get some sparring instruction. Reason being, you don't want to reinforce bad habbits. At least get a good sparring tape covering sparring techniques from Muay Thai, Shooto, Pancration, etc. etc. I was recently invited to teach a grappling class at a local hapkido school. The master instructor told me that his students have been grappling on their own, but his style does not cover ground work, so most have been just grappling by themselves after Hapkido class. I must admit that I admired the Korean master to admit a lack of skill in a certain area. We agreed that I would teach some of his students in exchange for some Kumdo lessons.
Anyway, when I saw his students grapple, it was a mess. No position work. Just guys pushing one another attempting standing wrist locks while on the ground. I think at least initially it may be a good idea to seek instruction in proper sparring techniques. This would save you some time, bruises, and a whole lot of bad habbits to unlearn.
MA fanatic