Effectiveness of flexible blades?

[sing fu]

I'll start this thread off with this - I was watching some weapons performance by some very talented nam siulum martial artists recently - very quick, accurate strikes - when their weapons demonstration started.

Their flexible weapons (chain whip) was very good. The halberd was solid - as you'd expect for a weapon that plows through attacks, deflects opponents weapons with it's staff etc.

The staff and spear were evasive, and used a flexible length of stave. This kind of movement is effective against another staff/spear weapon, and also against sword/broadsword (no evasion/flexible movement means your guy can easily attempt to cut down your weapon, or at least splinter it to make it difficult for you to slide it). I could see the usefulness of the body movement there.

What concerned me was the darn do/seung do broadsword performance. Both of these were performed with the type of flexible demonstration weapon that you can make the tip touch the hilt. While the performer's form was very fast, and no doubt based on a classical set designed to precisely cut vunerable areas like the hands/elbows, knees, throat and eyes, I honestly couldn't see a level of precision that would make this possible.

Personally I think people training in these rich traditions should be training with more realistic weapons that will hold their form throughout parries/cuts against an opponent.

What are people's opinions about training to really cut? And are such flexible weapons found in actually used historical cases (for example, museum collections etc)?

Your opinions are very much appreciated.

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Mate,

I totally agree about flexable weapons i think real solid ones should be used after the thin floppy ones have been learnt. Then they should use the heavier weapons because this wil change their stances due to the size , shape and weight of each weapon.

I have a real tiger fork and Kwan dao, straight sword and i will tell you i dont think half of the wushu guys will be as fast or flash when trying to perform there moves with these ones i have. Take a samuria sword a real one and jump around doing flips or spins with one mistake you can injure yourself pretty fast.

nice post!

FT:D

[Crimson Phoenix]

From what I know, flexible sabers NEVER existed in chinese warfare. They only exist nowadays because they're easier to wield during performances and because they make a cool noise (as FT said) :rolleyes:
I don't say you cannot train with them, and actually that's all they are: training weapons. True chinese sabers are rigid and substentially heavier.

As for the sword, once again the design we're used to train with disappeared early from the army's adopted weapons, around the Ming (and even the swords used during the Ming were shorter and wider, better suited for horseback fighting than the long, narrow jian we use).
However when it comes to personnal protection (which has noticeable differences compared to military fights), then this type of jian has been used quite often and moreover flexible (some of them VERY flexible) jians were often found. As flexible as they are, they remained razor-sharp, and if indeed even if it made it much harder to block a heavy weapon, their flexibility could be used to generate a tricky and unpredictable fighting style. I know of some jian styles, specially from Emei, that are specialized in using the flexibility of the sword (if I remember correctly it's "emei dancing phoenix" and "emei phoenix tail").

On a sidenote I also seen nifty applications of a flexible spear, which, with a good twist and jerk, could litterally go around a blocking weapon and stab the one who blocked.

So as far as I know, I only seen flexible blades used in 1) jian and 2) for personnal protection (as opposed to battlefield use)...

[sing fu]

Crimson Phoenix and Fiercest Tiger,

Thanks for your replies - I'm enjoying the discussion! I agree some jian might be made more flexible. With darn do/seung do though, they are not made for delicate slices and lunges, but more for cleaving. I saw some broadswords in the house of an old ethnic Chinese master which were just like chinese choppers - not as pretty as the wushu swords, but ever practical.

I don't think broadswords should be used that are that flexible, but are there any combative uses of a more flexible weapon?

Also, does anyone have any online sources for images of antique/historical chinese weaponry?

[firepalm]

Weapons today such as broadswords & spears & such are outdated, period. They exist now as 'apparatus' that being the case who cares if a weapon can cut through an opponent?!?! The old argument of a wushu player weilding his weapon with same ability is also not really valid, give a wushu guy and short broom handle & it's a pretty safe bet he will do as well. Conversely give a traditional guy one of those light weapons unless he's trained with it (developing the wushu players levels of speed) he probably won't do so well.

Just another view point!
:D

[sing fu]

Firepalm,

Good points - we all should be able to handle any weapon available. I also think, as Fiercest Tiger was saying, that the use of the 'real' weapons requires a certain kind of stance/form, and that if this isn't the focus of training, our martial art will be forever changed to become something else than what we have protected until today.. whew, I'll get down off my soapbox now...sorry;)

Weapons and organised warfare are what makes human conflict different from that of the animal world, and we should prepare for as many possible needs - we might need to apply a chopper or something similar in a home-invasion, or defend against one too!:)

[tnwingtsun]

I agree also on the point of training with the light weapons(for form) and progressing to the heavy ones(for combat,what they were used for in their day).

What bugs me is that a pretty form done with a weapon
made out of tin foil that looks flashy will seem(to the eyes of the laymen) to outclass a weapon set done with a real combat weapon.

Do they have different judges and classes for combat weapons
as opposed to non-combat weapons or are they all grouped into one single class?
If so then this needs to be changed(IMHO).

Just as how can you expect to get a fair judgement from a........

Lets say a (please don't get ****ed,this is just an example)

Hung-ga master/judge on a SMP/YKM/BM/Dragon set when their system maybe southern but is on a different plane.

[CLFNole]

Personally I think both heavy and light weapons are good. I like to train with heavy weapons to build strength and increase the control of the body. Conversely when doing a performance I prefer a lighter weapon (not necessarily wushu light but somewhat flexible).

The whole concept of "combat weapons" is rather impractical anyhow. None of us will likely ever had a fight with a staff, spear or sword. Maybe someone will use a broomstick but thats about it.

It is important to know all the applications both offensive and defensive for teaching purposes and ones own knowldge.

Lets face tournaments are all "eye candy" anyway. Anything where you have to rely on the opinions of others to determine who wins is a bit suspect to begin with. No one actually wins on the field like with most sporting events. So if it takes a lighter weapon that makes noise to win then use one. If you don't care about trophies and only compete for yourself then use heavy weapons. People who have half a clue will respect you if you do a good form with a heavy weapon.

To me someone's respect is worth more than some $20 trophy that you will hang clothes on or leave in your garage anyday.

Peace.

[Eddie]

cant recall the exact source now, but I think it could have been in Yang Zwing Mings book chinese weapons where I read that most weapons where some what flexible in ancient times. Their metalurgy was pretty good at some time, and there was even a story about a famous kung fu soldier who apparently had a flexible saber which he tied around his waste as a belt to hide his weapon. I will try see where I read this, and will et everyone know.

training with flexible weapons does have their benefits. it could help you to understand how to generate power using hips etc.

I have held heavy weapons, which were unbalanced and felt very heavy, and I have held balanced weapons which were heavy bit felt light. I think proper weapons should be balanced and should not feel to heavy.
e

[Fu-Pow]

I prefer the more traditional weapons. Heavy combat steel (like from the Lung Chuan), no nickel plating. I like stuff that you could actually sharpen and use on the battle field. Also it's important that the balance of the weapon is correct and that if feels good and maneuverable in your hands.

The weapon and the performer are intimately tied together. Your weapon should be like an extension of your body. My old Sifu wouldn't even let us touch any of his personal stuff because he didn't want us to "corrupt" it.

There are many flexible weapons in the Chinese kung fu arsenal but swords never come up as one of them. I think a sword should be more solid than that.

With the broadsword you can slash with the blade and poke with the tip. But with the really light wushu swords I don't think you could really poke anybody. If you tried to poke some one with a wushu sword the sword would cut but it would only go in so far until it started to bend. With a real broadsword you could really jam that thing in there.

So in the weapon you select I think you should ask yourself "could I really use this on the battle field" and "could I really execute all the techniques with this weapon."

Performance is another issue and I think CLFNole summarized that pretty well.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Once upon a time boanks only provided fixed or floating home loans. Then came the flexi home loan which tailored to the needs of clients who don't know whether to fix or float their borrowings.

Flexi-swords I believe came after proper broad swords and chain whip. They are for those people who don't know how to use either.

Its so typical of Southern Kung fu people to have gone on for miles posting what you all had done without saying that Flexiswords are a stupid waste of time.

[sing fu]

Ego_Extrodinaire,

That was pretty funny:p

tnwingtsun and CLFNole,

I agree about the stylistics - away from the tournaments you can always see if someone's movement is really 'cutting it'. I was also really interested in what Eddie was saying about the defense weapons some would wrap around their waist - Eddie, if you do have any more info on that, please bring it in!

I want to take this further now, and ask - most southern styles broadsword seems perhaps up to 200 years old stylistically. Does everyone agree with that? I'm no historian when it comes to China, so I'd like to ask - did southern weaponry see any battle/conflict in that time, and if so, what kind of clothes/armour might we expect they would have worn?

Thanks for the great discussion guys!:)

[fiercest tiger]

Maybe you can test your sword drawing and test cutting on ego?:) It will f@ck your sword though!!!hehehe

hey ego,

I still love your answers mate.

FT:)

[sing fu]

Fiercest Tiger,

I'm more of a liability to myself with the sword :p Hey, how do you say 'accidental versectomy' in cantonese again?!? :D

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

SingFu:

You mean the chain whip thing. How you use it is the same way as you would swing a bicycle chain. It's not the first weapon of choice - your sword is.

FT:

Flexi swords can't cut.

Sing Fu:

200 years old and probably more. I belive the chinese had made iron a lot longer. Broad swords were used by the Northern armies many more centuries ago. The southerners though were farmers and had no use for such a dangerous weapon.

Those flexi swords are a thing of wu shu.

[Brad]

only exist nowadays because they're easier to wield during performances and because they make a cool noise (as FT said)
They're also a LOT cheaper! Have any of you tried the new wushu swords? I've got a jian and really like the weight and balance of it. It's still semi flexable, but doesn't make all the noise. A lot better quality than the old "tinfoil" swords, the only thing I never liked much in my wushu training or performance.

[Drake]

Flexibility in swords is a benefit in terms of horseback/cavalry assaults. A rigid sword will become lodged in the target, irreparably damage the blade, and possibly even dismount the rider.
Sorry about the infrequency and random postings. I'm currently moving between duty stations, and continents.

Drake~

[fiercest tiger]

Hi there, you would want to be one heck of a swords man on horse back to hit through armour and between the seems of the armour with a flimsy sword!:(

I personally would go for the heavier and solider sword, remember you can get the sword made to your specifications maybe alittle heavier etc:)?

FT:)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Oh Drake you are one raving fool to think that flexi-swords are used on horse back against armor!

Lodge into target and cannot get it out - what pathethic kung fu movie did you get this from or is it what your southern kung fu sifu got you to believe.

What you want is a hunk of steel, full of weight behind it. Your horse goes at about 20mph, you colide that piece of sharpened steel against flesh, that's what yopu want. You'll slice through leather armor or plated armor without a problem.

Fierce tiger: I hate the sound of flexi-swords as they swish through the air. How dare you like the sound of that. Really annoys me that people buggerize kung fu by doing this flexi-sword thing. I hate crouching tiger and hidden dragon for the same reason. I hate HK kung fu movies as well as all other kung fu movies.

Flexi-swords were used by Hung Gar players when they trained in the hulls of the red junks, so that a mistake wouldn't result in a hull breech, drowing all occupants within. They can't swim, they were previously farmers.

Just like the show Babaylon 5, how they weren't allowed to use projectile weapons in the space station. Mmmmm if a bullet can penetrate the hull, I wonder what would happen if the space station were hit by a good sized metor. Anyway the red junk won't survive the slash of a sword, let alone the fire of a cannon by the Priate yellow beard, the shor from a gun or the impact of a meteor. Accordingly, Hung Gar is no match against northern kung fu.

Geez I hate flexi-swords. Who was that darn fool who started this troll post. It is really ticking me off.

[fiercest tiger]

HAHAHAHA I hear ya! So if the hung gar students sink the ship cause they cant use the sword well, who would go down with the ship?

1) JEE SHEE SHIM SEE?

2) WONG KEI YIN?

3) WONG FAI HUNG?

4) WING LAM?

5) LAM JO?

LOL, so how heavy is your sword? Do you have a flimsy sword? Come on you can tell Uncle Gazza!!:)


take care
FT:)

[Yum Cha]

I'm with both FT and Ego.

I like the sound, the way it pops if you put ging into it, the way is whistles through the air, but other than that, they are worthless weapons, great for demos and wu-shu kind of stuff, but "Apparatus" as someone said earlier. I would find it hard to believe they aren't an invention of our generation for sport.

Granted, the Chinese have a long history of metalurgy, but look at other weapons of the past, Damascus Scimitars, Samuri Swords, English Broadswords.... Not lots of flexible technology, but some really hard steel....

Dao are mass produced military weapons, not handcrafted pieces like Japanese Katana, is that accurate? Gim were the masters' pieces, aristocratic...

The "Dragon" brand, so common worldwide are pretty good. I've never seen two exactly the same though....between us we have two sets of doubles, and 3 singles and a chrome plated one. Granted the Doubles match their partner, but the sets are different size and wt, the 3 singles are all different and the plated one is yet different again.

The plated ones are nice and heavy <grin>. We have a double width "executioners" sword that is really f-ing heavy, and it has holes in it so it sings. Training heavy is my preference. A cricket bat makes a good option.

As for application, it goes beyond the weapon. It comes down to your skills. A cane can be used like a Dao, a shovel like a Kwan Dao, or a mob (I'm thinking Jackie Chan here...)

Mushashi, the Japanese hero swordsman, fought challenges with odd things; with a wooden sword, a oar , a stick as well as a Katana. Thats part of his mythology. The skill was within him, not the weapon.

Anybody ever seen a flimsy Kwan Dao?

[fiercest tiger]

yes, ive seen a flimsy kwan dao in compitions! not a good look..:)

long time no see or hear? redneck has gone home now, back to normal life.hehehe

later
GARRY

[Yum Cha]

LOL....yea, you got a little more peace and quiet now, eh?

M

[sing fu]

Hey Ego,

That is the first time I've seen Babaylon 5 and Darn Do mentioned in the same sentence man. You must put some crazy stuff on your cornie flakes for breakfast :D Must be that crazy Bak Siulum your on ;)

There is historical records japanese blades were imported at one stage by the chinese, but not for all the soldiers. Also, a text exists in china and japan, •�Œ|�}•ˆ’ÊŽu, which depicts chinese warriors training with jin, do and japanese blades. More stuff for you that you never needed to know!

BTW, does anyone know who the best chinese swordmakers were north and south?

SF

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Fiercetiger:

Is that a multiple choice question? If so it is a trick question. The answer depends on who is nominated to be captain of the ship.

I don't have a heavy sword or a flimsy sword. I used to train with a metal pipe. Hey how often would you be carrying a broad sword around. Maybe to the YKM convention, like I will carry a phase pistol to a Star Trek convention.

Yum Cha:

You know what. I wish companies like Nike go into sword making. Imagine with the technology today. Yeah... for extra weight and strength, my broadsword will be woven strands of depleated uranium, titanium and carbon fibres. Perhaps the cutting edge should be of smart nano tech material. It would sense my rise in chi as I detect danger and go extra sharp. Otherwise it would saty blunt for training purposes.

My sword would be a reserve weapon, the weapon of choice will be none other than a Q switched, mode locked, solid state laser that emits an intense pulse of light just above infrared spectrum. Also made by Nike!

Sing Fu:

I'm on the good stuff man!

[jon]

Flexible blades are used in dueling, and then only the strait sword or gim. Im speaking mainly form an internal arts perspective as thats where my blade work lies.

This is very similar to western fencing and the use of the blade is actualy quite similar as well. A lot of thrusting parrying tight circling with active footwork. With a slightly flexible blade extra touque and speed can be added to the strikes which can enable attacks to come from odd angles and with odd effects.

The reasons i say this is a dueling weapon are obvious, in this situation such things can be advantages in skilled hands. See olympic style fencing if you wish further reference. On the battle feild however we all know that same western fencer would stand little chance against a English Knight weilding a double handed claymore and in full armour.
Who ever said that these blades are for horse back riding should really do a little research. Infact most strait blades where basicaly frowned upon as battlefield weapons including gims of basicaly any varity.
If you wish ill be brutal as to why :D

When you cut with a strait sword if you actualy make good impact the sword my stick in bone. If you then wish to withdraw your sword you will need to yank it towards your self in a slicing motion to actualy get your opponent off your blade. If you yank it the opposite direction its unlikely it will actualy come out cleanly, You need to litteraly cut your blade out. In a battle this is useless as by then someone else would have taken your head off. When strait thrusts are used there is also a strong chance of suction on the blade causing a delay with removing it. A skilled swordsman may twist the blade slightly on impact to make a little 'room' but not all are skilled.

Hence typicaly you do one of three things in battle.
1 You either make the blade shorter and thicker for use in one hand usualy with a shield.
2 You make the blade thicker and two handed allowing you to 'hopefully' cut right through.
3 Most effectively of all, you just curve the darn blade - see samurai swords and dao broadswords.
If the blade is curved you alliveate nearly all of the problems that arise when you actualy 'cut' something. You can notice most cooking knifes have some sort of curve to them for the exact same reason.

Strait long one handed blades of any sort are poor in battle.
Strait one handed long soft blades can be very usefull in dueling if you know what your doing with them.
The idea of trying to cut inbetween armour slots with a soft blade has to be the most rediculous thing ive heard for a while.

[sing fu]

Jon,

Thanks for your insights - the necessities of the battlefield opposed to the speed and agility of dueling certainly earn the do and gim their titles of 'soldiers' and 'gentlemens' weapons. Keep it coming!:)

[fiercest tiger]

HELLO MATE,

I have a Gim that is thick and real and i also have another one that is still thick but has some flexability but not much, but still a very nice weight, its pretty used and old looking but its not like wushu flimsy.:)

Ego,

I think you have been smoking to much Opium in your pipe dude! What hung gar masters was on the red boat?:)

FT:p

[Yum Cha]

Thanks for the good oil Jon. Makes a lot of sense.

Ego, I kinda like the light sabre myself..."Don't make Yoda drop his cane!"

Piece of pipe works for me...baseball bat. Broken pool cue even has a point...

Anybody out there fight with the short sticks? How different is that to a Dao, or two...

[fiercest tiger]

All sword forms have the figure 8 and and what i call the X's small and large, which has the disarms and slicing methods etc

Very similar to the Kali or escrima i suppose i never have done it but they have a heaven and earth drill that looks like alot of YKM type sword/blade work. Not to mention all the angles like on a clock or baqua that the blade weapons follow.:)

FT

[omarthefish]

I almost fell off my chair laughing reading the good points to 'flexi-blades'.

I am blushing at the fact that I must agree with my mortal enemy Ego Extrodinaire or the north on this one.

You should all be ashamed at yourselves for even discussing those foil toys as if they were real weapons. They are TOYS. They are for practice and exhibition with NO martial use whatsoever.

In old China there were no floppy blades because they hadn't figured out how to make aluminum implements yet. There were flexible weapons but they are used COMPLETELY differently. The jian is flexible the way sprung steel is flexible. It won't snap. It isn't brittle. It can bend. A samurai katana is also flexible. You can take a good one place the flat of the blade on one persons shoulder and the handle on you own and pull down on the blade. It will bend and then snap back into shape, but it is HARD to bend it.

Fiercest Tiger,

Ego may be an idiot about Hung Gar and fighting but he seems to be up on his history. I get confused my self about the red boat guys. Opera singers or something. I thought they were wing chun guys but Hong could easily be mistaken to mean red. (the same sound, different characters)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

FT:

They all were on the same boat. They got the students to do static stances and practiced with flexi weapons so they didn't do harm to others or themselves.

I used to train with a metal pipe I found in a construction yard. Than the cops saw me training in the field near the kids play ground. It was a cold winters day so I had a black jumper on and a balaclava. I got arrested and it was quite an embaressing incident.

Jon:

You're right, the straight sword is much better for duelling. Much faster weapon to deploy. But the metellaulogy in China at that stage was such that they also weren't as reliable for heavy chopping. In fact you don't want to do that with a straight sword. In battle best to have a broad sword. I would love to have a team of archers on my side to soften up the opposition first. It's always good to have a few easy kills to warm up and get the adrinaline flowing as you ride on through and chop down the stragglers.

omarthefish:

So you'll play along again! Yes you're right, there is a bit of flex in those straight swords, but not so flexible that it resambles doing the ribbon dance like some of those wu shu chics do. I think we agree on this point.

I'm also right on the points about Hung Gar. The cramped hulls of those boats didn't have much head room. So the had wide open hirse stances. Didn't train too hard because imagine 40 guys training so hard - all that sweat would stink the place out.

[Drake]

Namecalling, Ego? How absolutely childish.
Well, sir, I got my information from a number of historical references, up to and including actual demonstrations performed ON horseback, displaying how spring steel and other flexible blades cut through people much more effectively. I guess actually seeing it in action doesn't qualify as fact with you. Well, how about this. Why don't you, oh great harbinger of wisdom, hop in a horse, and go running full speed at a dummy with a good, thick blade. And be sure to get a picture of you holding that blade bent at a 90 degree angle once you get dismounted. btw... can you even ride a horse?
The katana was not made for high speed horseback strikes, and neither were a number of large blades.
I'm not suggesting the blade be a slinky, but I AM saying you need a flexible blade for high speed horseback strikes. Simple physics.

Drake~

[sing fu]

Drake,

I'm really interested in historical chinese warfare - if you wouldn't mind, could you point me to any references regarding weapons and tactics on the battlefield? I'd appreciate it.

You were talking about the japanese sword being/not being used on the battlefield. While most of the sword we see today is either katana or tachi (both generally standing unarmoured/armoured weapons), generals did wear tachi and some schools still transmit the tactics for their use - though not as a charging weapon.

The nature of Japanese warfare meant that horses weren't in the majority on the battlefield, so charges or hit-and-run attacks like we might have seen with mongolian tactics weren't that common. That said, I think the likelyhood 'do' techniques as we know them today were formulated into the sets we see after feudal times is pretty high.

Another thought - is it possible flexible blades are the product of the peking opera?

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Sing fu:

You'll be correct to say that flexi-swords are the product of chinese opera. No one in their right mind would bring an aluminium foil to a battle field against cold hard steel. Make sense?

The Japanese sure had horses, they had equivalents of halbards (Kwon dos) for charging. They had the bow and arrow. Japanese steel is very tough, much tougher than a chinese broadsword but slower to deploy - 2 handed weapon. It could easily slice through armour of that time. You need a good solid cutting edge that is curved, not a foil. That is physics my friend, to think otherwise is foily (folly) or in Darke's case a Goose, nucklehead or what ever name I decide to call him.

Drake: you are a fool.

[Jables]

Ego: you are a troll

[fiercest tiger]

You know that Idian style that wear the nappies and have a long flexible sword? The swrod they use isnt strong but like a coiled spring!!:)

Can ego be right here?:eek:

Lol peace
FT:)

[Shaolin Master]

Too Rigid and it will break, too flexible and it'll bend.

Swords have a balance to them.

Chinese broadswords in the 'traditional' sense were and are much heavier and more solid than that which most are acquainted with.

Japanese steel for a time had superior quality for a time than the average sword (but specialised chinese swords were and are still fantastic). In fact the Spaniards had excellent blades as well.

Chinese straight swords were also not as flexible or light and thin as the typically found sword nowadays. Each sword " form " to some only means new techniques but in reality every well known sword was meant to be used with a specifically designed sword: as examples - Kwun Wu Jian, Chao Yang Jian, Ba Xian Jian, Miao Dao, TaiHe Jian etc are differently made swords with there techniques associated with the actual design and balance etc....of the weapon. Each tool a use the ultimate tool is suited for the individual.

Regards
Wu Chan Long

PS : The Kalarayapiyat flexible blades are used more like a whip than as a cutting instrument/mechanism, so it is a different category of weapon it is more akin to the Whip, Chain whip and the like...with its own special qualities.

[fiercest tiger]

yes kalari use that spring sword and use it like a whip!

cheers
FT

[Yum Cha]

I'm no metalurgist, but sword steel is one of early man's great endeavours. It seems mankind is always taken to its limits by warfare.

Most everybody knows that the a Japanese Katana masterwork was metal pounded out, folded, pounded out, folded, etc, over and over. Perhaps hundreds of times? This gave the blade the required strength and flexibility to become the fearsome weapon it is. As SM said, too hard and it was brittle, and would break, too flexible and it couldn't hold an edge, and would bend.

American Cavalry Sabres were softer steel, flexible to take the impact of a slash from horseback, and they distorted incredibly durning those fractions of a second, without breaking. But they didnt hold much of an edge, not like a Katana.

I've always been intrigued by Damascus Steel, the steel used in the scimitars of the Muslims that fought the crusaiders. It was said to be able to cut right through the Western European (English?) Armour. I'm working on loose memory traces here, but I seem to remember that they have analysed these relics and found carbon threads in them (as in modern high-carbon steel) yet they can't reproduce them to this day, and some that are a thousand years old still carry their original edge.

I suspect that the Crusaiders broadswords were probably of the incredibly heavy variety that would smash through anything, like a Kwan Do.

I have seen some links to beautiful old Chinese Gim, but I suspect the steel was rather primitive, as with the Do. I would like to get my hands on a "Real" Do, but I've heard that the "Dragon" variety you buy these days is employed in the street to this day on occasion.

I know the "3 Musketeers" weapon, the epey (sp?) was basically a rod with a sharp end. It was solid enough it could parry a broadsword, not like the fencing foils of today. I would guess it was a bit flexible...

So SM, what was the story with the Spanish swords? As used by the New World Explorers, or?

I always liked the "Highlander" movies / series because it had different sword types used by the various characters, not that their technique was particularly significant, but then again, I'm not that particular <grin>.

That's my brain dump, hope its interesting.

[sing fu]

Yumcha,

Are you refering to the Do called 'blue dragon broadsword (�—´“�)', or is there maybe a brand called 'Dragon' that sells broadswords? Hope you'll forgive my ignorance :)

[Shaolin Master]

For centuries, when the issue of a fight depended not only on the personal hability of the fighter, but also on another decisive factor - the perfection of his weapon -, with Toledo’s exceptional steel were forged the most terrible arms in the world. Their extraordinary hardness made of each of these swords an invencible force in the hands of an expert swordsman. All European armies knew the superior quality of Toledo’s steel and many great warriors relied only on sabers of Toledan provenance.
Their origin comes from the most ancient Spanish customs. More than 2,000 years ago, in the 5th century B.C. , Iberian blacksmithes already forged swords known as falcata which had an iron blade inside and a special design made to increase the bluntness of the slash.

Due to their fame, these swords were choosen by Hannibal for his army and the Roman legions, defeated by those weapons, adopted them later and supplied their centurions with the dread Toledan blades.

The times of Excalibur kind of sword passed by. The Middle Ages blacksmithes exalted the office, as they relied more and more on technological progress and not only on the good quality of their steel. The Muslim armies feared the sword that had defeated them. They didn’t revere only the hand of a Master - the Cid Campeador - but also the excellence of his weapon, a Toledan sword, of course! The Muslims adopted such a technics to produce their slender two-edged scimitars, transmitting their secret from one generation to the other.

Then, the Toledan manufacturers would yield the famous rapiers so well popularized thru d’Artagnan and his fellow Musketeers.

Also today’s Toledo is a quiet city with about 50,000 inhabitants, it has been for a time the capital city of the widest empire in the world, an empire “where sun never set”. Kings from all parts of the world have had swords and sabers forged in Toledo. Even Japanese Samurai were aware of the existence of Toledo’s steel as it had been introduced by the Spanish merchants that followed the steps of the Spanish and Portuguese Jesuites. As Japan lived in a state of continuous civil war, it is not surprising that some of their Daimyos even came to Toledo to have their katana and wakizashi forged there. Thay knew how important was a perfect design and finish for the effectiveness of a sword.

One exemple of what was once the most noble art in the world is no dubt the gold inlaid hunting dagger of King Charles the Fourth, with the mark and the name of the smith who did it engraven on it. Toledan craftsmen can be rightfully proud of such a fine blade and splendid finish. This art is actually disappearing because swords have been replaced by another type of weapon, like pistols, guns, rifles.

The internal structure of the blade and the mystery of its fabrication were a secret well kept by the manufacturers. It hasn’t been unraveled until the 20th century! To make such an exceptional weapon, they had to forge at the same time and at a very hot temperature hard steel with high contents of carbon and soft steel. This way, they could obtain excellent mechanical properties as well as a better fastness to wear.

An appropriate selection of raw materials, their adequate proportion in the blade and the forging of both types of steel at a temperature of 1454 º F during the exact interval of time required, give the most perfect sword ever built in the world.

In old ages, the blacksmithes used to recite psalms and prayers keeping always the same rythm, in order to calculate the time that the blade would remain inside the furnace. This timing had to be respected to avoid any deviance: a longer time would melt the steel too much and on the contrary, a shorter one wouldn’t let the metal reach its melting-point.

Forging requires forcefulness and efficiency in a very short time. Then comes the following step: cooling with water or - sometimes - with oil, to get a clear and clean welded seam. In some cases, the blacksmith had to blow even 20,000 times in order to get a perfect tempering, but such a level of perfection wouldn’t allow him to make more than 2 or 3 blades in a year!

In other parts of the world, craftsmen have tried to imitate the perfection of Toledo’s steel, but they all failed. Damascus’s steel was too hard, not at all flexible, because it contained only iron and carbon and wasn’t refined of all the mineral impure elements.
Swedish steel was based on a soft steel, carbured in a furnace, surrounded by animal horns and hair, leaves, etc. and heated at a temperature of about 1650º F. Swords were also manufactured in Solingen (Germany). There, they twisted together wires of different thickness and carbon contents in order to get a threadlike structure that combined hard and soft steel. the swords of Nimes (France) were also recognized for their good quality.

But everywhere there were forgeries as the fame of Toledan swords was unique in the world. If you could convince the buyer that the sword you were trying to sell him was an authentic Toledan sword that came all the way from the world capital of steel forging, you’d done a really good deal. But of course, you’d better disappeared before he tried it! At use, nothing could equal Toledan steel.

[Shaolin Master]

I personally have ordered my swords from Longquan, ZheJiang Prov. I set the specifications according to the classic script for each method and in Longquan after two months they make the most wonderful swords.

The weight of the swords is alot greater than the typical wushu variety, and without skill a normal practitioner would find it unwieldable.

Yum Cha, should you desire a good quality sword please send me an email with specifications - they cost around 5,000 Yuan to make (at the top of the range) or I can obtain ready made ones but of top quality for less. I will be there again sometime at the end of december to pick up and inspect my order.

greetings

[Yum Cha]

Thanks SM, always nice to see you. Thank you for your generous offer.

As you know, I like the Fey Fung Scheng Do pattern. When you spoke of the various types of swords before I assumed you were speaking of Gim, is that correct?

Tell me more about a "high quality" do from Longquan, are they forged? Do tell...

The "Dragon" do I refer to are a brand, mass produced in China. You see them everywhere. Usually Black Scabbard, standard issue kinda stuff.

[Drake]

I see myself repeating this over and over again. I am not saying tin foil swords are effective, but as you have seen in the posts written, a flexible blade.
The katana is a good sword, but it is primarily used while dismounted, since the solid nature of the blade would instantly dismount the attacker. Think about a) The angle when striking a person from horseback b) The surfaces being cut, including bone, tissue, and the clothing/armor c) And the resulting impact from a full cavalry charge.
Most of my Chinese historical references are sitting in my hometown college. I used to read them between classes prior to joining the armed forces. Once I arrive at my next duty station, I'll be looking for more, so if you would still like the titles of the ones I get, I can be sure to accomodate. All pretenses aside, I gained my first smidgen of eastern history with a game for the Nintendo called Romance Of The Three Kingdoms. I was fascinated with the Han dynasty, and all the heroes they had... Lei Bei, Sun Ci, Lu Bu, Guan Yu, who allegedly held a bridge with 20 men against hundreds.


Drake~

[fiercest tiger]

What about the blade of the horse chopper kwan daos? i dont think they were flimsy, i have antique kwan dao and it is thick and hard and heavy. I also bought another kwan dao in henan next to shaolin temple and a thick sharp tiger fork.

One thing i must add i have seen the weapons the real antiques at shaolin temple by the monks and they are big and heavy. Just my 2 cents worth here!:)

regards
FT:)

[sing fu]

Drake,

That would be really good! If you have/get anything on chinese warfare, I'm in boots and all!

FT,

How the **** did you get those through customs?! When I was coming back from Japan last time I had only wooden swords and polearms, but they wanted to check all of them! :(

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

FT:

How did you get those antics from china. Having been there, they only sell the flimsy stuff at tourist stores.

What did you say when the customs official asked if you had anything to declare? You must be once fierce mother to have gotten this though customs.

It is hard for comeone to imagine the brutality of the weapons around at that time unless one has flet, touch and weilded it. Movies and worse still wu shu demos don't do justice.

Shaolin Master sure does know a lot about his swords. One thing I would add is that the curved blade of middle eastern swords improvec their cutting abilities. But they are still one handed weapons. I think on horse back you're better off with a chinese broad sword.

[omarthefish]

Don't go to the tourist shops. It takes time but eventually if you can develope good relations with enough of the locals you will find that there are places where you can have weapons made to order according to your specs. for surprisingly little money.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Omarthefish:

I would surely like to have a chinese broadsword made of Toledo' steel. But I'm sure technology these days can produce swords made of exotic alloys of even greater cutting ability, good weight for momentum and just enough give so the are strong and yet not brittle.

It's diffcult to develop good relations when I was just passing though in China. Perpahs even if they know me more, they might dislile me so much that shoing me the antic sword means slicing me in half. A lot of people on this forum have already branded me as troll or the master troll. even you hate me. I live in a bell tower shunned from the real world, rining the church bell from mid night till dawn when I'm not posting on this forum or smoking grass.

[fiercest tiger]

My Antique kwan dao is believed to be around 170-190 years old and its been used in battle. I bought it here in an antique shop where they had samuria sword and other chinese weapons. The other 2 weapons i bought at shaolin and i had much more that i sold, a nice broadsword i sold to a friend that his girlfriend broke it in half when they split up.

Customs was only interested in the wood i brought it back in that looked like a coffin. They kept the wood and took my weapons.:)


LATER
FT:D

[friday]

yah i've had only minor problems when i brought some weapons back to Australia from HK. i remember they were concerned about the wood too.

they were also concerned about the size of the weapons as well but as mine were all pretty big they weren't too worried so i got to get all mine past.

i had this gim but it was a lot thicker than the skinny blades and didn't flop around at all and quite heavy. i'm not even sure whether i should call it a gim or a broadsword. i also brought back a do (knife) and a long stick as well. it hink next time i'm going to get a spear and gwan do if i can. :)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

nah I won't advice anyone to buy weapons from HK's flee markets where gim looks like a cross between a floppy sword and a broad sword and spears look like chop sticks with pointy ends. It's probably ok for the unastute martial artist like some.

FT: that ex-gf of his must be one fiesty chic, to have broken a battle tested weapon in half!

[sing fu]

It's probably ok for the unastute martial artist like some.
Hey Ego, that hurt! :p

[friday]

haha :)

the weapons were purchased in China and taken back to HK by a person who has many good contacts in China. one of the benefits of being well connected ;) is good quality training weapons at decent prices. sorry to gloat my good friends but i get mine for free :).

ego minimus!!
kelvin chumpy!!!
:)

[omarthefish]

If I can get my computer to recognize this stupid digital camera I could post/email pics of the 'antiques' I've found. A couple of my shi-xiong have purchased gleaming steel taiji dao. (not jian) and they feel like real weapons. Sorry no Toledo steele but these things could certainly cut an arm off . . . if you wern't wearing armor.

Ego . . .

When you fly down from your bell tower and admit the superiority of southern gong-fu over your silly acrobatic northern kicking styles I will relent in my quest to have you eradicated from the face of the earth ! ! ! Don't be upset just because all those northern monks had to flee south to fujian and be protected by the REAL fighters .

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Omarthefish:

Northern kung fu was used by the military, what have the monks fleeing gotb anything to do with the ability of northern kung fu. Monks pray, warriors fight. But for some twisted reason, southern kung fu people see things in reverse.

Looks like I'll be in the bell tower for awhile longer posting to correct your ignorence on kung fu and life in general.

[Jables]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
Omarthefish:

Northern kung fu was used by the military, what have the monks fleeing gotb anything to do with the ability of northern kung fu.


Northern Monks who fight using Northern Kung Fu had to flee south to be protected by Southern kung fu. True or not, that is what he said and you were too ignorant to see the obvious.



Monks pray, warriors fight. But for some twisted reason, southern kung fu people see things in reverse.

Catholic Monks pray, Shaolin monks fight when necessary. Get this straight in your little noggin, junior.



Looks like I'll be in the bell tower for awhile longer posting to correct your ignorence on kung fu and life in general.

Looks like you'll definately be ignorantly in the bell tower Gokti/Ego/Kelvin! Have fun with each other....

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Jables:

Let me spell it out to you, it is the military who have good northern kung fu. Of course novices at fighting ie. monks have to run away from professional fighters - won't you? How would you stand up against a heavy weight boxer or a octogan fighter?

I've seen shaolin monks fight in kung fu movies but their fighting styles in documentaries look quite unimpressive. I think the average bishop at the local church would be a fair match against any of them.

I also have seen footage of special forces apply unarmed combat skills. I think faced against a monk, the monk would do best to run away, perhaps hide in the local church.

nah I'm a senior member but look who's the noggin now?

[omarthefish]

Ego,

Your senior membership is something to be embarrassed about as it only shows how much time you spend TYPING about gong-fu as opposed to actually training.

[Jables]

you are completely lacking in all things kung fu. You have no skill, no talent, and can only raise yourself up by bringing others down. So sad. A stationary object can only do so much.



Let me spell it out to you, it is the military who have good northern kung fu. Of course novices at fighting ie. monks have to run away from professional fighters - won't you? How would you stand up against a heavy weight boxer or a octogan fighter?

You sidestep the point as usual Ego. This statement has nothing to do with the previous statement. And is irrelevant.



I've seen shaolin monks fight in kung fu movies but their fighting styles in documentaries look quite unimpressive. I think the average bishop at the local church would be a fair match against any of them.

You've seen Shaolin Monks fight in movies? What an expert that must make you. What shaolin monk has ever been in a movie? I'll go ahead and answer that one for you, junior. None. You've seen Actors in movies, acting. They run through choreographed moves for dramatic effect. Movies are fantasy sparky. I'll clear that one up for you too. Some expert you are.



I also have seen footage of special forces apply unarmed combat skills. I think faced against a monk, the monk would do best to run away, perhaps hide in the local church.


Your entire statement only shows your ignorance. You lack the social skills necessary to actually make a point. In addition you have this fascination with worthless fighting styles. The octagon fighters? Nothing more than sport. It's sad that you would put so much faith in an activity that doesn't bring anything but detraction from the Martial Arts.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Jables

"you are completely lacking in all things kung fu. You have no skill, no talent, and can only raise yourself up by bringing others down. So sad. A stationary object can only do so much."

Are you trying to bring me down to your level of discussion?

"You sidestep the point as usual Ego. This statement has nothing to do with the previous statement. And is irrelevant."

What I said is completely relevant. To put it simply a novice best run away from professional fighters. Be it you from an octogon figher or a shaolin monk from a soldier. I never had much respect for the kung fu at shaolin temple anyway.

"You've seen Shaolin Monks fight in movies? What an expert that must make you. What shaolin monk has ever been in a movie? I'll go ahead and answer that one for you, junior. None. You've seen Actors in movies, acting. They run through choreographed moves for dramatic effect. Movies are fantasy sparky. I'll clear that one up for you too. Some expert you are."

I've seen shaolin monks do live performances. They are actors but with less special effects. They look more like gymnist rather than kung fu experts. I see little kung fu in what they do.

"Your entire statement only shows your ignorance. You lack the social skills necessary to actually make a point. In addition you have this fascination with worthless fighting styles. The octagon fighters? Nothing more than sport. It's sad that you would put so much faith in an activity that doesn't bring anything but detraction from the Martial Arts"

Most kung fu styles are less than what you see in the octogon. I've seen wing chun players getting creamed by octogan fighters and boxers. Becareful in what you say - by bringing something down you might be bringing yourself down with it and to a greater extent. To vindicate what you say, have you fought an octogan fighter and showed him or her that is nothing more than just a sport. Perhaps you might like to have a run in with Tank Abbot.

He's a brawler, nothing in your southern kung fu forms would prepare you against a brawler.

[Jables]

But what if anything have any of your latest posts had to do with the topic, junior? I'll cover that one for you. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. As usual, or should I say as is your style, you side step the original topic to talk about what you want to discuss. If you can't discuss the topic Ego, I suggest you go elsewhere.

You wanted to talk about the octagon. Sport. But is this an "octagon" thread? No. You want to talk about the effectiveness shaolin monk kung fu. Is this a thread on that subject? Once again I'll give you the answer that you've so stubbornly overlooked. No. You want to talk about things that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand Ego. If you have nothing to say about the topic at hand, then keep your fingers still.

It's really too bad that you didn't have anything constructive to say about the topic at hand.

Ego Minimus. Sad really.

[friday]

Ego Minimus!!!!

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Jables:

If you paid a little more attention to what I had said earlier, it is quite evident that flexible blades are a modern creation for wu shu performances and not for real live battles.

It was omarthefish who brought in the monks - maybe you should address him for going off topic in the first instance. and it was you who said that octogan fighters are nothing more than sports fighting.

Sure the topic might have gone off, but from the number of views so far, it sure ain't stale!

How would you rate yourself against Tank Abbot?

[Doug]

Hello,

To add to the discussion, wushu weapons do not contribute to the real history of Chinese martial arts.

For one to practice an authentic art, one must use the weapons of the past (either by purchasing an antique or an accurate modern weapon). However, this is usually a difficult aspect to weapon training: accurate weapons are few and far between. Some companies, such as www.sevenstarstrading.com , sell authentic weapons from China that can be used in practice. Every weapon sold there is guaranteed to be what it is advertised as. The weapons sold there will hold together for forms practice, and they will cut (but since these are antiques, I would not recommend it in favor of preserving them). The modern ones from from Cold Steel or Paul Chen are not necessarily accurate (or even the ones from www.martialartmart.com , which certainly are not representative of real swords, knives, etc.). They are either too heavy or too light. The balance may be wrong. The fittings may get in the way of good technique. Something can just throw the whole weapon off. This is one problem facing Chinese martial artists today.

If one uses wushu weapons, one should realize that what one is practicing is something other than the combat version of the art in question. As long as that distinction is clear, then there is no problem. However, if one thinks one is practicing a real version of a chosen art with a wushu weapon or a weapon that is overtly heavy--so heavy that one cannot properly perform the techniques of a given form correctly--then there is a problem.

This just opens a can of worms when the idea of weapon sparring or weapon competition comes into play.

It is my hope that Chinese martial artists (not performers) will be able to return to more accurate implemnts in their training. In terms of swords or polearms, the first mass-producer I would recommend is www.kriscutlery.com for their good work. I have a Gim from them that is pretty well balanced and is not too heavy. I have yet to try out their dao, but when I do, I will post my findings and comparisons to my antique dao.

Doug M

[alecM]

If some of you want good info on Chinese sword have a look here at Thomas Chen's (http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo3.html) website.
From what I’ve read in this thread there’s a lot of old wives tales about Chinese weaponry still doing the rounds and a lot of cr@p from Ego.
Ego I see you are still preaching that cr@p that Chinese armies consisted people from Northern of China and they made the best soldiers.
Like to debate the subject a bit more or you afraid you might get banned from here as well.

one more thing Ego or is it Kelvin, most people in the US don't know what a balaclava is so you must be from the UK or Australia

[Doug]

Yes, Thomas Chen's site is a good one. He frequents www.swordforum.com quite a bit. I recommend to anyone who is interested in accurate weapon usage and construction to frequent that forum too.

Also, check out Scott Rodell's new book, Chinese Swordsmanship: The Yang Family Taji Jian Tradition, for a great resource on the straight sword of China.

Doug M

[Doug]

Check out this link for more information that is extremely helpful:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3283

Doug M