progression

[apoweyn]

if you were going to take a person with no experience and get them ready for sparring (make up your own timeframe), how would you go about it? step by step.

basic footwork first?

combinations on the focus mitts?

forms?

take a hypothetical student through the progression. just for the sake of it.

cheers.


stuart b.

[Suntzu]

I like this one…

brb

[apoweyn]

cheers suntzu.

and just to clarify a bit (or not), i'm not specifying whether this is for competition, self defense, etc.

whatever your standards are for the successful absorption and application of a set of skills or style, how would you enact that?


stuart b.

[Qi dup]

I think a minimal amount of training works well. You can see what kind of fighter someone is going to be if you just let them go with there instincts at first.This will also show them how much they have to learn. I would tell them to stay low and gaurd there grill. After that I would start to show them some tecniques.

[Suntzu]

first I would take a lil time to get his/her conditioning up as well as basic body mechanics… footwork and basic movements… u know side to side, forward and backwards… gauge and improve there flexibility… and I would work them hard to the ground with conditioning drills just to test there heart…

the students next step would be 2-man drills… offence/defense… no contact sparring… just so the student gets an idea of what It looks like to have someone fighting them… plus he’ll get hit accidentally every now and than so they’ll get an idea of what that feels like and what they did wrong to get hit…

next up… put the gear on… it’s time for the student to get hit… first its the basics… use the jab, straight, round kick, front kick… put him/her in with someone seasoned… let the student work on his techniques… only punish him when mistakes are made, ie. Dropping hands, leaving the body open… this is where the student becomes aware of his mistakes and also gets hit… does he want to continue???

So now our student know what it feels like to get hit… and he/she has returned… he is now in better condition than he was when he started… he has a firm understanding of the basics… he/she has been hit and has hit and has a lil confidence in his/her skill… now its time to crush the student again… gear up and take this beating like a man… str8 sparring… leave yourself open, u get hit…

After all is said and done, the student knows there limitations and quits, is content with his level of skill or works harder to get better… and the cycle starts all over again… of course I left out smaller details like the type of drills and what not… but u get the idea…

PS- when I first started san shou… the very 1st day… I had to spar… so I didn’t get the benefit of being eased into… I got a fat lip…

Charles Staley's Science of Martial Arts Training book has a good chapter on this very subject… which is basically were I 'borrowed' from…

[apoweyn]

suntzu,

beautiful. that's the type of thing i was looking for. thanks.

i'll have to check out that book too.


stuart b.

[Suntzu]

it’s a good book… some of it is common sense… some of it is earth shattering… some of it just lets u see what u are already doing in a different light… and at time it can be a lil heavy for a casual reader… good thing to have on the book case… plus I got it direct so its autographed

[SevenStar]

I would first have him go through footwork, bobbing and weaving, keeping his guard up, etc. If he's not mobile and has no defense, then having an offense won't help him.

Once he's got a handle on that, I would have him begin working on basic punches, kicks and throws. Now he has some type of framework that he can build from.

From there, I'd move him to focus mitt drills and bagwork, stance training, rock pole and road work. Now that he's got some techniques under his belt, he has to get in shape, and develop coordination and power.

Now, he can begin to spar. In the beginning, I don't want him to focus on too much, only on using the tecniques that he knows as effectively as he can. this will get him used to mounting an offense and also haveing to worry about defending.

The next step is refinement. This is where forms come in. single technique drill type forms, like shuai chiao and bjj use. he would do daily forms work, shadowboxing and I would be work with him to correct his technique and make himeself more efficient. this is also the stage where we would think about issuse such as timing and distancing, and delving deeper into the principles that are making his throws work.

[SevenStar]

I started writing mine, then went to lunch before I submitted it. Now I have a plan that's looks similar to suntzu's, since he sent his first. Ah well, I guess great minds think alike :)

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I started writing mine, then went to lunch before I submitted it. Now I have a plan that's looks similar to suntzu's, since he sent his first. Ah well, I guess great minds think alike :)


true. besides, i'm looking for some of the common themes here. so i'm glad that much of your posts corresponded. if everyone came up with a different methodology, i'd leave this thread scratching my head and going, "huh."

and that ain't anything worth seeing. :)


stuart b.

[Suntzu]

I think sparring with no gear isn't something a newbie should do for a while… I should say anything over lets say 65-70%… lack of control… learning control would come from the 2-man drills… we do drills with no gear except for gloves and shins( it is san shou btw ) but with alot of power behind it... it is a drill so u know whats coming so u act accordingly... the learning of control comes from the 'follow up'... say the drill is blocking a high roundhouse to the head... after 'A' throws the kick and 'B' blocks, 'A' or 'B' has the option to follow up but since each knows this also the follow up is light contact... plus i dont enjoy taking full power shots to the face...

makes sense???:confused:

[Liokault]

this is the way my teacher does it.......Im not saying its the way I would do it but its the way it works in our school.

Ok we get a beginer in who says he wants to learn to fight.....so we put some boxing gloves on him and a full face head guard and put him in with another beginer to sparr full contact.

What tends to happen is they stand at punching range and hit each other a lot.

For some reason we get very few injurys and as yet no one has tried to sue us.


The I think the reasons my teacher does this is that Tai Chi tends to attract people with no real idea of what to expect so a good pounding shows them what they are letting them selfs into and to a certain extent weather or not they have what it takes.

at no point is any one compeled to spar and most guys in ourclub spar very infrequently.

[guohuen]

I think gear is probably a good idea. When I was coming up the only gear available was boxing gear and not many other martial artist used it. Occasionally the head gear, never the gloves. I watched protective gear being developed by Jhoon Rhee and others over the years and always thought it was a good idea for newcomers and sporting events. Perhaps with proper instruction I'll learn how to use it myself.

[Suntzu]

so u from the school of hard knocks huh??? The way older cats be tellin me how they use to train sounds good… but somedays I can barely get out of bed with OUR methods… I don’t know if I could be a functioning part of society with the true skool training...

[yenhoi]

Day 1: (approx 2 hours)

First - Basic Test: do this w/student - to gauge, teach, and inspire. (approx 30 min)
Some minutes stretching
Jump rope few rounds
Some pushups
Some situps
Few reaction drills (ex: when I say red, you touch my right hand, when I say green, touch left, poka dot = touch both, or something else quick and easy.)

Rest - Talk to student: gauge attitude and goals. Drink some water, maybe eat a power bar. (approx 15 min)

Then - Teach: mobility. Taught by participation, in small drills. (approx 15 min)

Some sort of stance (doesnt really matter right now, key word is balance.)
Footwork!
Move forwards, side to side, retreat.
Lunge-ing, and running (away).
Escape.

Then - Teach: defense. Tell him about investing in loss. This is really just preaching, he wont understand this stuff until you start to hit him in the face, ribs, and kidneys. (approx 15 min)

Hands up.
MOVE.
Opponent moves his hands you move your feet.
Dont drop hands to defend lower (use knees.)
Roll with punches.


Then - Teach: offense. (approx 15 min)

Jab.
Cross.
Hook.
Jab-cross.
Jab-cross-hook.
Shadowboxing.
Little bit of focus mits.

Finally - Sparr: kick his ass. 2-3 rounds. (approx 15 min)

Take it slow. Give him nose shots, chin shots, hook to backside of head. Show him how to eat an uppercut. Rib shots, kidney shots. Make him move, and show him how hard it is to hit something else, that is moveing and trying to hit you. MAKE HIS KNUCKLES BLEED.

Cooldown - talk: about FIGHTING. (approx 15 min)

Be sure to explain the difference between fighting, sparring, training, and self-defense.

Day Two: Similar lesson plan, focus on kicking. (approx 2 hours)
~ 30 min warmup.
~ 15 min rest & talk.
~ 15 min movin around.
~ 15 min defense - shadow box.
~ 15 min offense - add a few (3-4) kicks now - shadow box.
~ 15 min sparr.
~ 15 min cooldown.

Day Three: Similar lesson plan, focus on clinch. (approx 2 hours)
~ 30 min warmup.
~ 15 min rest and talk.
~ 15 min movin around.
~ 30 min learnin - teach clinch, give him a couple elbows, knees, and a couple throws.
~ 15 min sparr.
~ 15 min cooldown.

Day Four: Similar lesson plan, focus on the ground - dont go there, if you do, get back up, quick! (approx 2 hours)
~ 30 min warmup.
~ 30 min basic positions and drills (knee on stomach, side mount, mount, guard.)
~ 30 min technique (triangle, armbar, ankle lock, couple chokes.)
~ 15 min rolling
~ 15 min cooldown.

Day Five: What the hell? (approx 2 hours)
~ 30 min warmup.
~ 15 min rest and talk.
~ 15 min movin around.
~ 15 min heavy bag (2-3 rounds.)
~ 30 min Formwork. (This might be any sort of form, the first 4 postures of a 37 posture tai chi short form, or a couple 3 move drills, or even the first section of the first WC form, doesnt matter.)
~ 15 min cooldown.

Day Six: Pull it together man! (approx 2 hours)
~ 30 min warmup.
~ 15 min rest and talk.
~ 15 min discussion of range.
~ 30 min changing range "2 man drills or whatnot" (kick, punch, elbow, knee, throw, ground position, lockflow.)
~ 15 min sparr.
~ 15 min cooldown.

Off the top of my head - almost busy at work today.... almost.


:eek:

[apoweyn]

thanks yenhoi. nice post.