reneritchie
11-13-2002, 12:25 PM
So those of us who feel so inclined can keep going:
azwingchun - IMHO, since we're all anthropomorphic and all engaging in a similar activity with similar goals, there will always be overlap in how we seek to achieve these goals. Since everyone is an individual, with their own unique way of learning and expressing what they learn (brains are not wired by mold), there will also always be different ways developed to package the methods for achieving these goals (a few lines of theme for some, a synopsis for others, a short story or novels for some, or expanded and annoted volumes for others). IMHO, also, arguing about the method to achieve is sometimes mistaken for arguing about the achievement itself.
Grendel - Due to my Sigung's passing last week, I did not have much time or desire to argue on message boards, especially about the same things ad nauseum infinitum. My views on the history of WCK are well known, and since this is the thread that I'm spending some time on, and it is application rather than history oriented, please forgive me if I attempt to remain on topic. You, of course, are likewise free to post where and how you see fit.
Akalish - Nice to have you at the tea table! Again, I'm going to leave specific approaches and labels out of it, just to stay productive, but we also believe in an ideal or best way of doing something, though we devote time to transitions if circumstances prevent us from attaining it, or we make a mistake (human error) and need to recover (ie. we just see something blasting in out of the corner of our eye and don't have time to determine if its right or left fist or even a kick or stick before it occupies our head space).
This is why I think 'Strategies for engagement...start long before contact is made' are a luxery I'd love to have every time, but in self-defense not one I think I can count on (can't count on there being a 'long before').
'but is there a possibility that his hook punch will land a second later due to his momentum or followthough' Yes, which would result in failure the way I learned because though you joined with the opponent, you did not intercept (cut off his offense) or sink (break his defense) with that joining. The way I learned, the flank is safer and better for when your skill is equal to or lower than the opponent (the default since often you won't know until the actual engagement), and the facing is faster for when your skill is better than your opponent. In the latter case, your skill is such that you can just walk in and finish (your joining intercepts and breaks in and of itself). Arguably, this is a skill few achieve, but it seems one our elderly, less healthy, ancestors made use of due to both their lack of physicality and their towering skill in later years.
With this, like most things, I see a risk/reward tradeoff. I honestly don't think there's ever a time (or very, very seldom a time) when you can have your cake and eat it too, so to speak, so part of our training is weighing the odds and determining what has the highest reward with the lowest risk, and sometimes personal factors play a part (maybe our left fook da is relatively week and our right tan da is a monster so we might play to our strengths in a real situation with nerves and confidences on the line). Of course, as we progress, this will hopefully lessen as a factor, but we don't always have the luxery of postponing when we need to use our WCK.
'kiu sau, chi sau, saan da'. I missed a lot of stuff last week, so if this was covered already, I apologize, but are you using those terms to cover ranges? The way I learned, we use San Sao for when there is no pre-existing contact, Chi Sao for when the bridges are in contact, and Mai San for when the bodies are in contact (closer than Chi Sao).
'ultimately you are place yourself in a situation where you can strike without being challenged or hit' Is a challenge different than a hit the way you're using the term? We would also strive for the ideal, for attaining a position where we can use our limbs freely on the opponent while there's are excluded from being used on us (we have flanked them, crossed their center, loaded their legs, folded their waist, etc.) As I said, though, we also train for when we can't, by virtue of circumstance, achieve this, but still need to do something (and hopefully transition to this).
'please look me up for some Wing Chun sharing.' Same goes for you if you ever make it up here Arctic ways... 8)
Savi - Please call me Rene! Though I'm rapidly aging and graying, I still hope Mr. Ritchie is a ways off (until I have daughters and they start dating
'I guess that's a black and white outlook.' - That would explain some of the differences that crop up in outlook, I think. Again, I'm avoiding labels and politics, so I'm not going to go into HFY or Shaolin or anything (just concerning myself with good application at this point), but in a way its akin to Bruce Lee's Jeet Kuen Do when he said that if, in the instant, you are intercepting, you are expressing JKD, and if you fail, you are not. That's a heck of a motivator, and I suppose if you're preparing for something stressful like combat, it doesn't hurt to set the bar in practice as high as possible.
'Imagine a vertical targeting grid' - That's a nice way to look at it (I'm a sci-fi fan so I'm picturing it in bright green with cool numbers flashing in the corners as target are aquired 8) ). I basically learned inside and outside (relative to each limb and the meridian line), high, middle, and low (likewise with legs matching legs). I guess that makes 12, but I've never really dwelt on the number and it was never really dwelt on to me. In addition to that, we have sets of 'measures' which are self-referential guidelines as to the functional range of the bridges (we tend not to term them 'positions' but 'paths' since they are actions rather than poses to us and must have integrity throughout, not just at both ends).
'refer to the last page of the Worshop Announcement Thread' I skipped that thread, and pretty much everything else last week, but I'll go back and read it after.
'primary and secondary offense and defense (ie Kiu Sao vs. Chi Sao),' I asked about this in my prior reply to Andy, so if I misunderstand, my apologies, but is this the 'sooner' vs. 'later' in dealing with a threat? If so, it follows my experience as well. We engage San Sao (what we call it) and Chi Sao engages only if that wasn't successful or if conditions (jumped by surprise, etc.) precluded it, then Mai San would be the next stage.
'unhindered simultaneous offense and defense' Just want to make sure I'm understanding your use here- is this term specifically referring to two limbs for you, or is it open to different incarnations (one limb attacks, one defends, the same limb defends and attacks at the same time, etc.)
'Each zone must be constantly occupied by the defender's designated body part' Do you personally also train for when you're caught out of position or at a disadvantage? If so, do you train to counter first then reset to your normal stategy, or to reset to your normal strategy than counter? For me, it's a time factor. If there's enough time, I reset, if not, I counter to create the time to reset.
'Unless you are the spider, it is not likely you (or your technique) will survive.' And if you're twoi spiders on a web, gotta hope you're the female most times 8)
'is to exist in the TSC where simultaneous offense and defense is optimal (most efficient).' - Okay, so then if I understand you, the ideal position is the ideal position as allowed by the available time. Does that then mean there are timeframes so limited that even the ideal position within that timeframe is dangerous to occupy? For example, I know some approaches where they'll even take a partial strike (shave it down to 20% or so, but not bother defending it completely) in order to have more time to achieve a better position.
'Are you familiar with this philo?' I've read what has been written on it, and I have a passing familiarity with learning models in general. My current pondering on it is that Weng Kiu sounds highly desirable but its one of those things that is not provable, only disprovable ('always' is only 'always' once you die without something having slipped past you, until then, its like the wild west with the next gunslinger (bridging opportunity) just around the corner 8) )
'In a sense, it is like training 'emergency hands' in Yip Man Biu Ji.' That makes a lot of sense, especially at the beginning when it can be a bit of a race to even get up to normal.
'Always get to the range where simultaneous offense and defense is viable!' - Yeah, it sounds nice, but I'm of the mindset where I expect the mugger to be Leung Jan or Wong Fei-Hung calibur! LOL! 'Always' on my sihingdai might just translate to 'ow! ow! ow!' with them! LOL!
'has many ways to internalize these preset positions in space.' I think the more we can internalize the better. The human brain can only handle a scant half-dozen or so (7 give or take I believe) functions under good conditions, far, far fewer under stress, so the more we can put into reflex, the more that has a chance to hold up when needed. (See Massaad Ayoob on 3 point alignment vs. 9 (I think) in combat shooting).
Actually, this to me is where I currently see the paradigm shift that led to WCK occuring - not something of form but of function, when some individual(s), regardless of who they were, came to understand how the body operates under stress, and developed a method for systematically and progressively programming it to excel under those conditions.
'Thanks to everyone who is sharing their understanding and questions.' Same here!
RR
azwingchun - IMHO, since we're all anthropomorphic and all engaging in a similar activity with similar goals, there will always be overlap in how we seek to achieve these goals. Since everyone is an individual, with their own unique way of learning and expressing what they learn (brains are not wired by mold), there will also always be different ways developed to package the methods for achieving these goals (a few lines of theme for some, a synopsis for others, a short story or novels for some, or expanded and annoted volumes for others). IMHO, also, arguing about the method to achieve is sometimes mistaken for arguing about the achievement itself.
Grendel - Due to my Sigung's passing last week, I did not have much time or desire to argue on message boards, especially about the same things ad nauseum infinitum. My views on the history of WCK are well known, and since this is the thread that I'm spending some time on, and it is application rather than history oriented, please forgive me if I attempt to remain on topic. You, of course, are likewise free to post where and how you see fit.
Akalish - Nice to have you at the tea table! Again, I'm going to leave specific approaches and labels out of it, just to stay productive, but we also believe in an ideal or best way of doing something, though we devote time to transitions if circumstances prevent us from attaining it, or we make a mistake (human error) and need to recover (ie. we just see something blasting in out of the corner of our eye and don't have time to determine if its right or left fist or even a kick or stick before it occupies our head space).
This is why I think 'Strategies for engagement...start long before contact is made' are a luxery I'd love to have every time, but in self-defense not one I think I can count on (can't count on there being a 'long before').
'but is there a possibility that his hook punch will land a second later due to his momentum or followthough' Yes, which would result in failure the way I learned because though you joined with the opponent, you did not intercept (cut off his offense) or sink (break his defense) with that joining. The way I learned, the flank is safer and better for when your skill is equal to or lower than the opponent (the default since often you won't know until the actual engagement), and the facing is faster for when your skill is better than your opponent. In the latter case, your skill is such that you can just walk in and finish (your joining intercepts and breaks in and of itself). Arguably, this is a skill few achieve, but it seems one our elderly, less healthy, ancestors made use of due to both their lack of physicality and their towering skill in later years.
With this, like most things, I see a risk/reward tradeoff. I honestly don't think there's ever a time (or very, very seldom a time) when you can have your cake and eat it too, so to speak, so part of our training is weighing the odds and determining what has the highest reward with the lowest risk, and sometimes personal factors play a part (maybe our left fook da is relatively week and our right tan da is a monster so we might play to our strengths in a real situation with nerves and confidences on the line). Of course, as we progress, this will hopefully lessen as a factor, but we don't always have the luxery of postponing when we need to use our WCK.
'kiu sau, chi sau, saan da'. I missed a lot of stuff last week, so if this was covered already, I apologize, but are you using those terms to cover ranges? The way I learned, we use San Sao for when there is no pre-existing contact, Chi Sao for when the bridges are in contact, and Mai San for when the bodies are in contact (closer than Chi Sao).
'ultimately you are place yourself in a situation where you can strike without being challenged or hit' Is a challenge different than a hit the way you're using the term? We would also strive for the ideal, for attaining a position where we can use our limbs freely on the opponent while there's are excluded from being used on us (we have flanked them, crossed their center, loaded their legs, folded their waist, etc.) As I said, though, we also train for when we can't, by virtue of circumstance, achieve this, but still need to do something (and hopefully transition to this).
'please look me up for some Wing Chun sharing.' Same goes for you if you ever make it up here Arctic ways... 8)
Savi - Please call me Rene! Though I'm rapidly aging and graying, I still hope Mr. Ritchie is a ways off (until I have daughters and they start dating
'I guess that's a black and white outlook.' - That would explain some of the differences that crop up in outlook, I think. Again, I'm avoiding labels and politics, so I'm not going to go into HFY or Shaolin or anything (just concerning myself with good application at this point), but in a way its akin to Bruce Lee's Jeet Kuen Do when he said that if, in the instant, you are intercepting, you are expressing JKD, and if you fail, you are not. That's a heck of a motivator, and I suppose if you're preparing for something stressful like combat, it doesn't hurt to set the bar in practice as high as possible.
'Imagine a vertical targeting grid' - That's a nice way to look at it (I'm a sci-fi fan so I'm picturing it in bright green with cool numbers flashing in the corners as target are aquired 8) ). I basically learned inside and outside (relative to each limb and the meridian line), high, middle, and low (likewise with legs matching legs). I guess that makes 12, but I've never really dwelt on the number and it was never really dwelt on to me. In addition to that, we have sets of 'measures' which are self-referential guidelines as to the functional range of the bridges (we tend not to term them 'positions' but 'paths' since they are actions rather than poses to us and must have integrity throughout, not just at both ends).
'refer to the last page of the Worshop Announcement Thread' I skipped that thread, and pretty much everything else last week, but I'll go back and read it after.
'primary and secondary offense and defense (ie Kiu Sao vs. Chi Sao),' I asked about this in my prior reply to Andy, so if I misunderstand, my apologies, but is this the 'sooner' vs. 'later' in dealing with a threat? If so, it follows my experience as well. We engage San Sao (what we call it) and Chi Sao engages only if that wasn't successful or if conditions (jumped by surprise, etc.) precluded it, then Mai San would be the next stage.
'unhindered simultaneous offense and defense' Just want to make sure I'm understanding your use here- is this term specifically referring to two limbs for you, or is it open to different incarnations (one limb attacks, one defends, the same limb defends and attacks at the same time, etc.)
'Each zone must be constantly occupied by the defender's designated body part' Do you personally also train for when you're caught out of position or at a disadvantage? If so, do you train to counter first then reset to your normal stategy, or to reset to your normal strategy than counter? For me, it's a time factor. If there's enough time, I reset, if not, I counter to create the time to reset.
'Unless you are the spider, it is not likely you (or your technique) will survive.' And if you're twoi spiders on a web, gotta hope you're the female most times 8)
'is to exist in the TSC where simultaneous offense and defense is optimal (most efficient).' - Okay, so then if I understand you, the ideal position is the ideal position as allowed by the available time. Does that then mean there are timeframes so limited that even the ideal position within that timeframe is dangerous to occupy? For example, I know some approaches where they'll even take a partial strike (shave it down to 20% or so, but not bother defending it completely) in order to have more time to achieve a better position.
'Are you familiar with this philo?' I've read what has been written on it, and I have a passing familiarity with learning models in general. My current pondering on it is that Weng Kiu sounds highly desirable but its one of those things that is not provable, only disprovable ('always' is only 'always' once you die without something having slipped past you, until then, its like the wild west with the next gunslinger (bridging opportunity) just around the corner 8) )
'In a sense, it is like training 'emergency hands' in Yip Man Biu Ji.' That makes a lot of sense, especially at the beginning when it can be a bit of a race to even get up to normal.
'Always get to the range where simultaneous offense and defense is viable!' - Yeah, it sounds nice, but I'm of the mindset where I expect the mugger to be Leung Jan or Wong Fei-Hung calibur! LOL! 'Always' on my sihingdai might just translate to 'ow! ow! ow!' with them! LOL!
'has many ways to internalize these preset positions in space.' I think the more we can internalize the better. The human brain can only handle a scant half-dozen or so (7 give or take I believe) functions under good conditions, far, far fewer under stress, so the more we can put into reflex, the more that has a chance to hold up when needed. (See Massaad Ayoob on 3 point alignment vs. 9 (I think) in combat shooting).
Actually, this to me is where I currently see the paradigm shift that led to WCK occuring - not something of form but of function, when some individual(s), regardless of who they were, came to understand how the body operates under stress, and developed a method for systematically and progressively programming it to excel under those conditions.
'Thanks to everyone who is sharing their understanding and questions.' Same here!
RR