Kuen Kuit [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

yuanfen

06-24-2002, 11:35 AM

I have not visited Rene's site recently-will do again sometime:
As I have mentioned before- I am fascinated by the kuen kuit and there are different collections of them.There are many more than you list.
Some of the ones you list are one liners others are listed on two lines but they are part of the same saying though for poetry
2 lines can give you the rhythm..An example below-

Yao Ying Da Ying
Mo Ying Da Yieng
----------------------

can be written horizontally witha break or
vertically in two balanced columns depending on the option chosen for calligraphy and poetry..

In any case:

yau ying da ying mo ying da yieng

strike any presented posture if its there otherwise strike
where you see motion
------------------------
That one directly comes from wing chun specific strategy.
Then you have ones(I dont have my notes here) which are
from old sources such as Sun Tzu--- something like---

You start first but I arrive earlier.

Then there is the very common wing chun one---

retain what is coming in & send off what is retreating
rush in upon loss of hand contact

We have discussed that one just recently.

Another wing chun specific one about the kwan-

the six and a half point kwan does not make more than one sound

Augustine Fong's elaborate collection in chinese calligraphy and in English are in the back of his now out of print book number 7
(Wing chun theories and concepts)-
which has been plagiarized by someone else. That book originally was prepared in English the late 70s when i still lived in Tucson..
the book has disappeared in the market and some folks who are occasionally critical- still quote from it.
But the poetry has to be internally and properly understood and interpreted. They are not mechanical formulae. Many CMA sayings had meaning for the insider and disguised its meaning for the outsider. specially true for some southern styles- and their unique histories.

joy chaudhuri

aelward

10-11-2002, 12:06 PM

One of the Kuen Kuits that my Sifu shared with us is (in Mandarin):

pa da zhong gui da
(fear, hit, in the end, come back, hit)

tan da zhong bei da
(greed, hit, in the end, get, hit)

My understanding of this saying is "if you are afraid to get hit, you will end up getting hit; if you are too eager to hit, you will end up getting hit).

Last time I met with Sifu Ken Chung, he also talked about this, that greed and fear get in the way of training, and it best to leave this behind.

Is this a saying common to Wing Chun (has anyone else heard of it)? Or is it just something my Sifu came up with?

old jong

10-11-2002, 12:20 PM

In every day's language it could mean: Keep your head clear and let your Kung Fu do the talking!;)

yuanfen

10-11-2002, 12:27 PM

Not an uncommon kuen kuit by any means. We dont use ken's phrasing of greedy but the same intent is there.

Basically two interrelated sayings:

Strike when you should. Do not strike when you shouldnt.

Do not be too eager to strike. Do not be afraid to strike. Being afraid of getting hit- will finally be hit.

Joy Chaudhuri

dfl

10-11-2002, 01:49 PM

Yes, this is a pretty common saying in HK YMWC.
But when Ken says "but tam but wai", he has a very specific structural alignment meaning, quite different from the generic "you'll get hit if you are greedy or afraid".

Tom Kagan

10-11-2002, 02:35 PM

There are thousands of Hoa Kuit (some call them Kuen Kuit). If you really need to know where your Sifu got them, you'll have to go back to your Sifu and ask him more about those two.

However, this is the one Ving Tsun Hoa Kuit (Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit) which, I believe, is the jist what your sifu told you. This is a single poem, though sometimes you'll find its verses stripped from their context. (NOTE: This is Cantonese - the language of Ving Tsun - not Mandarin):

Ying Dar, Chak Dar
Pat Ying Dar, Pat Ho Dar
Mo Keung Dar, Mat Luen Dar

Translations to English could be as follows:

Have the line? Take the line.
Don't have the line? Don't take the line.
No greedy hits? No confusion who hit.

or:

When you should hit, hit
When you shouldn't, don't
Don't when you can't
Don't when you mustn't

Anyone else want to take a gander at the translation? Attached is a rubbing of one side of the stone.

black and blue

10-11-2002, 03:42 PM

Post when you should post
Do not post when you should not post
If you post - always hit the spell check
Rolling hands can sometimes be trolling hands

:p

anerlich

10-11-2002, 04:53 PM

From a submission grappling coach:

"Take the gift, don't seek the bounty"

From a boxing coach:

"Christmas: better to give than to receive"

S.Teebas

10-11-2002, 07:13 PM

Its confidence in your technique without ego. Its about not bull$hitting yourself about whats happening.

TenTigers

10-13-2002, 03:44 PM

'when your opponent moves in, you move in,
when your opponent moves out, you move in,
when your opponent stands still, you move in!";-)

HuangKaiVun

10-14-2002, 05:21 PM

This one I made up:

"It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that jing".

EnterTheWhip

10-14-2002, 05:28 PM

Have the line? Take the line.
Don't have the line? Take the line.
No greedy hits? Take the line.

bglenn

11-13-2002, 02:21 PM

Just wondering if people would be interested in sharing some of there family's Kuen Kuit and there interpretation of what they think they mean.I think it is amazing how a few Chinese characters can relay such a deep meaning.

yuanfen

11-13-2002, 02:43 PM

you might check the following site:
http://www.afn.org/~afn59160/kuit.htm

Some are common to other wck, some are common to TCMA,
and some are line specific.
The site is maintained by Jordan Misner who does wing chun
and teaches it. The school also teaches hung gar but not by Misner.

reneritchie

11-13-2002, 02:49 PM

Yuanfen once again drops the bonsai on correctness. You may also want to check out http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/idioms/index.shtml for a few I've begun posting.

RR

sing fu

11-13-2002, 05:00 PM

Mr. Ritchie,

I really like your presentation with both the original Chinese, as well as the translation. I don't suppose there might be any Chinese sources for Mr. Misner's wonderful pages on kuen kuit too?

yuanfen

11-13-2002, 06:00 PM

sing fu- there are. Mr. Misner or his sifu Rob Lopez might be able to help. Unfortunately, my tech knowledge is so poor that despite my prayers and flowers my pc image repro machine just stares at me. And one of my students who is good at these things wisely is not on net lists. Most of my students, brothers and sisters arent.

sing fu

11-13-2002, 06:39 PM

Yuanfen,

Thank you! If these are something Mr. Misner might be able to share with someone who isn't a student, I would be grateful - I'll try writing to him.

I also have some poem from a departed relatives notes, including one which says 'the fist is the bullet, chi is the gun powder' - but not sure where these come from. It's a shame I didn't learn more while he was still around!

Are these poems recited during training, or taught aurally privately, or passed on in a book? As I mentioned, the only ones I have personally seen are a number in notes.

Any directions would be very much appreciated:)

Grendel

11-13-2002, 06:57 PM

Unfortunately, English translations don't accurately convey the utility and
pithiness of Cantonese---there just aren't good counterparts in each
language.

The Cantonese is metaphorical; the English simply doesn't correspond to the
mindset of the Chinese.

Kuen Kuit for martial arts are supposed to be short and sweet idioms that
when the Sifu yells at the student, it brings the student immediately to
that mental state, in addition to the physical attributes of how to execute
that technique.

The following are some Kuen Kuit compiled by one of my Chinese sidai.
Most of the translations are accurate in meaning, despite the poetic
elegance of "short and sweet" being lost in the translation. He has matched
a few of the popular ones with their more popular American counterparts for
your amusement.

Loi Lao Hoi Sung, Lut Sao Jik Jong
Direct translation: Stay with what comes. Send off what goes. Detain what
arrives. Escort what is removed.

"When the opponent expands, I contract;
When the opponent contracts, I expand;
When there is an opportunity, I do not hit;
It hits all by itself." --- Bruce Lee, Enter the Dragon.

Lien Siu Dai Da
Direct translation: Join cancelling to bring hitting.

"Jeet Kune Do. The way of the Intercepting Fist." --- Bruce Lee

Dar Sou Jik Siu Sao
Direction translation: The hand that hits also blocks

"A good offense is your best defense." --- Vince Lombardi

Hui Yu Min, Chuk Yu Tik
Direction translation: Feels like Cotton. Hits like Iron

"Float like a butterfly. Sting like a Bee" --- Ali

Chew Min Joi Ying
Direction Translation: Search and Follow the center, Chase the shadow

"In Ya Face, Baby !!!"

reneritchie

11-14-2002, 07:02 AM

Grendel - Excellent points and good Kuen Kuit. On the last one, is it the "yieng" (ying) as in shadow/impression or the "ying" (xing) as in shape/form? I think I've seen the later, giving "chase shape (posture)"

RR

Grendel

11-14-2002, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by reneritchie
Grendel - Excellent points and good Kuen Kuit. On the last one, is it the "yieng" (ying) as in shadow/impression or the "ying" (xing) as in shape/form? I think I've seen the later, giving "chase shape (posture)"

RR Chieu Mien Jui Ying
Another translation, as I understand it, would be "Search and follow the center. Face the opponent squarely."

Regards,

reneritchie

11-14-2002, 09:54 AM

I've heard "Center Facing Posture Chasing" I've seen the character Dui (Face) used as well.

RR

bglenn

11-14-2002, 02:57 PM

When I first posted this thread it inspired me to go back and look at the book "Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit"by Moy Yat That the VTMUSEUM put together a couple of years ago.It was a copy of the original .As I went through it I realized that I was missing some pages. If anyone has a copy could you please help me fill in the missing pages. I am missing pages 1-3,7-8,51-52,57-58,any help would be appreciated. Thank You My e-mail address is BGLENN73@comcast.net

Rob Wolf

11-21-2002, 02:57 AM

Remain disciplined –Conduct yourself ethically as a martial artist
Practice courtesy and righteousness – serve society and respect your elders
Love your fellow students – be united and avoid conflicts
Limit your desires and pursuit of bodily pleasures – preserve the proper spirit
Train diligently– maintain your skills
Learn to develop spiritual tranquillity – abstain from arguments and fights
Participate in society – be moderate and gentle in your manners
Help the weak and the very young – use martial skill for the good of humanity
Pass on the tradition – preserve this Chinese art and Rules of Conduct

Just an idea!.....www.sillumwingchun.com Rob

black and blue

11-21-2002, 04:25 AM

Limit your desires and pursuit of bodily pleasures

What fool came up with this kuen kuit?

quiet man

11-21-2002, 07:01 AM

What fool came up with this kuen kuit?

:D :D ROTFL

Grendel

11-21-2002, 02:49 PM

I brought this up in another thread, and the list being slow, decided to add it in here. The Cantonese expression is Mm Yan Chi Dai, which translates to Misleading other people's children.

The idiom is a reference to those teachers who claim an expertise in an art that they do not have and waste the time and treasure of others. Applies to a number of supposed Wing Chun teachers, for example.

As Yuanfen said, "an Ip Man doesn't come along every day."

Mckind13

11-29-2002, 11:11 AM

Hi everyone :)

Fat from turkey? I am. I look like that cat on the internet. Only human, and not as hairy :P

I was recently introduced to the idea that some Kuen Kuit have a very exact meaning that translate to exact actions when dealing with an opponent, rather then being general principles or guidelines to follow.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Also, as I lay in my turkey induced stupor last night I read through some of the Kuen Kuit and it seems to me that many of them allude to the same things.

Use soft to overcome hard. Slow to overcome Fast. Use stillness to overcome movement.

Use defense to bring offense or the defending hand becomes the attacking hand.

And many more.

It seems to me to me that these are really talking about the Ying/Yang idea of using an opposing energy to overcome your opponent.

Additionally it seems that other groups of Kuen Kuit discuss one overriding principle.

Again any thought J

Looking forward to your replies.

David McKinnon

reneritchie

11-29-2002, 11:32 AM

Many of these Kuen Kuits can be applied both way, thus: use hard to overcome soft, use fast to hit slow, etc. I think this goes along with the Yin Yang idea, though the meaning can be somewhat subtle to figure out.

RR

t_niehoff

11-29-2002, 11:58 AM

Hi Dave,

Dave McKinnon wrote:

I was recently introduced to the idea that some Kuen Kuit have a very exact meaning that translate to exact actions when dealing with an opponent, rather then being general principles or guidelines to follow.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

--------------------

IMHO the one doesn't exclude the other, i.e., that WCK *principles* can be expressed very specifically or generally (one can use a specific, concrete example to infer a more general idea or extract a specific application from a general idea). TN

---------------------

Additionally it seems that other groups of Kuen Kuit discuss one overriding principle. (Dave)

---------------------

I think that there are different "types" of kuit, some to help us train, some to understand WCK's method or approach, etc. With regard to those focusing on WCK's approach, IMO they are essentially describing aspects or different perspectives of the same thing, or to put it another way, like shining a narrow beam of light on an elephant and catching glimpses of its different "parts" although what we are actually trying to see is the whole elephant. TN

Terence

MustafaUcozler

12-02-2002, 10:11 PM

Hello everyone,

I have run into some "Kuen Kuits" that I need a
translation for. Unfortunately I do not have the
Chinese characters and my cantonese skills are pretty
much non-existent, which makes things certainly
extremely difficult.

Can anyone here still give it a shot?

1. Fung Hung Bit Jun
2. Jone Gan Biu Bong He
3. Wang Lan Dai Cheung Jim Sin Tau

Thanks!

Mustafa

John Weiland

12-06-2002, 06:59 PM

Hi Mustafa,

So the curious can see and the knowledgeable can come with corrections and comments. :D Romanization of Chinese sounds is an art, so consider this a little better than a pure swag. :D

Originally posted by MustafaUcozler
Hello everyone,

I have run into some "Kuen Kuits" that I need a
translation for. Unfortunately I do not have the
Chinese characters and my cantonese skills are pretty
much non-existent, which makes things certainly
extremely difficult.

Can anyone here still give it a shot?

1. Fung Hung Bit Jun

Must enter when there's an opening. Or as Ken said: Fung hung jik chung. Ben writes "jeck" instead of jik.

2. Jone Gan Biu Bong He

This one says essentially, when your opponent has your
centerline, then perform bil sau, then bong sau.

3. Wang Lan Dai Cheung Jim Sin Tau

This translates to when you lan sao, you go down with the opposite hand, and not up, then you get the advantage.

Thanks!

Mustafa

Regards,

datou

12-08-2002, 03:17 PM

Hi Mustafa!

To answer your question about the Kuen Kuit, why don't you just ask Sifu Schafer? Maybe he just forgot to type the translation on his website! Or you can ask any 12 SG and above who attended the special tutorial. Maybe they will tell you.
I can only tell you that (nothing against Mr. Weiland) this explanation is not the right one.

yuanfen

12-08-2002, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by datou
Hi Mustafa!

To answer your question about the Kuen Kuit, why don't you just ask Sifu Schafer? Maybe he just forgot to type the translation on his website! Or you can ask any 12 SG and above who attended the special tutorial. Maybe they will tell you.
I can only tell you that (nothing against Mr. Weiland) this explanation is not the right one.
-------------------
Hi Datou- Mr Weiland gave an answer to a publicly asked question.
If you think that the explanation is not the right one- why not
share your version or atleast give the basis for your opinion?
Would love to hear your version.

John Weiland

12-08-2002, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by datou

I can only tell you that (nothing against Mr. Weiland) this explanation is not the right one.

What is the "right one" then? :)

In working with pinyin or Yale transcriptions, it isn't clear to me that certainty in translation would be possible since Catonese dialect pronounciations are not consistent.

If you could post the Chinese, that would certainly clear up the confusion on my end, and then if you'd like, I could probably provide a closer translation.

Regards,

datou

12-08-2002, 04:07 PM

Sorry, it was not an attack on you. This was only for Mustafa. He knows what my post means.
What I should have said is that this is not the answer HE is looking for. I normally don't post anything on forums, I just found his post amusing because I know where he got the "Kuen Kuit" from. My comments were only meant for Mustafa. Sorry guys!

John Weiland

12-08-2002, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by datou
Sorry, it was not an attack on you. This was only for Mustafa. He knows what my post means.
What I should have said is that this is not the answer HE is looking for. I normally don't post anything on forums, I just found his post amusing because I know where he got the "Kuen Kuit" from. My comments were only meant for Mustafa. Sorry guys!

Hi Datou,

I didn't feel slighted by your comments. I would like to hear what the actual kuen kuits mean, and if you have the Chinese, to have it in that form too.

If you look back at the archives, not too long ago, we shared several kuen kuits, and I would encourage others to do so as well.

Regards,

CFT

02-19-2004, 06:56 AM

Hi,

There have been threads posted previously about the Wing Chun kuen kuit, but none of them ever really tried to explain what each one meant.

I know that there is no comprehensive list, but I include below the list from Rene's wingchunkuen website. I hope that people can distinguish the Chinese characters, but I'll try to add a phonetic translation; apologies for the atrocious "pin yin" - I'm not following any standard but my own - and even then I'll be inconsistent :p

I'm pretty new to Wing Chun, but I'm going to make an attempt to describe the meaning behind each point. I would REALLY like some feedback on whether understanding is right or not.

1. °ò²»Í£Áô
Bong but ting lau - Bong does not stay stay
I've read alot on this forum, and elsewhere, that the bong sau is a transitional structure and so one should not hold a bong sau for longer than necessary.

2. ”³Ò»ÒÆ„Ó
Dik yut yee dong - Once the enemy moves
This is just part of a complete phrases which goes along the lines of: "if the enemy moves, I have moved first". Similar to "I move later, but hit first".

3. ÖÐÐÄÒÑ¿Õ
Sum jung yee hung - mind/heart is empty
No distracting thoughts in the mind. No preconceived ideas or expectations. Not really sure about this one!

4. È_ÓÉÐÄ°l (ÊÖÓÉÐÄ°l)
Kuen yow sum faat - The fist srtikes from the heart/centre
Possible double meaning here. First is the obvious centre-line theory, second is that we should strike with intent.

5. ßBÏûŽ§´ò
Leen siu dai daar - Simultaneous block and attack/stike
The siu doesn't really mean block, more like diminish - this reinforces the idea of redirecting the opponents force rather than a direct block.

6. íÁôÈ¥ËÍ
Loy lau hui soong - Detain what comes, escort what leaves
Can mean many things I think. I don't think that it necessarily means to trap an opponents hands, whether incoming or outgoing. For that matter, what about trapping legs? Don't want to get into the chasing hands scenario. I think this phrase could also mean maintaining the correct combat distance wherever yor opponent moves.

7. Ë¦ÊÖÖ±Ðn (·éË¦Ö±Ðn)
Lut sau tsik chung - Upon loss of contact, strike ahead
Seems straight-forward, but I always have the feeling that it means more than just to go straight in (through the centre) upon loss of contact with the opponents arms/hands.

8. ÏÈ°lÖÆÈË
Seen faat tsay yun - strike first to subdue the enemy
Again it seems straight-forward to assume that if you can srtike first, make the strike count and subdue the enemy. And no, we're not talking about a one-kill strike here!

9. Òò•r¶ø¹¥
Yun se yee gung - Attack when the opportunity occurs
"Se" is time/conditions, so I think the phrase just means to attack at the appropriate time or when conditions are right.

The next 4 I have real problems with.

10. ÓÐÐÎ´òÐÎ
Yau ying daa ying - if there is a shape, hit the shape
What is this shape? Does this refer to a visible pattern of behaviour in your enemy? e.g. they always use a certain parry/block/defence, they always dodge left/right, etc. So attack what is predictable behaviour.

11. ŸoÐÎ´òÓ°
Mo ying daa ying- if there is no shape, hit the shadow
Even more confusing for me. What is the shadow - the enemy's attack/strike? So we just respond to their attacks and attack their strikes.

12. ÓÐÓ°ÀmÁô
Yau ying juk lau - if there is a shadow, keep detaining it
The enemy strikes, but don't let them recover to make more attacks. Detain them at the end of, or midway through, their strike.

13. ŸoÓ°ÆÆÖÐ
Mo ying por jung - No shadow, break/attack the centre
Seems a bit like a last resort to me, but goes to the heart of it. The enemy has no discernable patterns, his attacks are too fast to stop/detain or he doesn't attack at all, just defence. You have nothing to work with - he's not showing you how to defeat himeself - just strike through his centre.

14. ÒÔÊØžé¹¥
15. ÒÔ¹¥žéÊØ
Yee sau wai gung - Use defence as offence
Yee gung wai sau - Use offence as defence
Not going to say much about this, this is a well understood idea. However, it does "lay to rest" the myth that Wing Chun is an all out attacking art.

Phew!! There are some pretty "obvious" lessons in there and some very subtle/fundamental ones too. For me 10-14 is the hardest to grasp, and I would say that you would spend a lifetime trying to achieve the Zen-like 3, 4.

yuanfen

02-19-2004, 08:17 AM

There are several different versions of the kuen kuit. Augustine Fong's out of print book which sold out rightawy in the 80s had
a fairly large collection.

IMO- a key to the understanding of the kuit is remebering that it is using the language of "pointing" to the truth and the road to discovery. A keen intuition is important. Can be misleading and
contradictory and confusing if read literally. With sharpened intuition they are very sugestive.

Off to an obligation- later if others have not made relevant comments by then- I will try to suggest some insights into some of them.

CFT

02-19-2004, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
Off to an obligation- later if others have not made relevant comments by then- I will try to suggest some insights into some of them. Look forward to your pearls of wisdom, and I'm not joking either! :)

Gangsterfist

02-19-2004, 08:52 AM

Here goes some of Fong's work I found online. I found this while ago and thought it was cool so I bookmarked it in my web browser.

The thing is wing chun has a lot of maxims, sayings, concepts, and philosophies so remember good results come from hard work in training, not knowing a bunch of sayings. Some of this stuff is also based off morals, which have a chan budhist influence on as well.

Here is the link:

http://www.wingchun.org/txt/misc/kuenkuit.html

This is probably one of my favorites, it just kind of stuck to me when I first heard it.

Retain what comes in, send off what retreats. Rush in on loss of hand contact.

If an attack comes in, let it don't use force to stop it. Use structure. If your opponet starts to pull away, stick to them. If loss of contact happens establish a new bridge, rush in and make contact.

That can be applied to so many different things, including weapons.

Maybe that can shed some light in your direction.

Phenix

02-19-2004, 09:10 AM

There have been threads posted previously about the Wing Chun kuen kuit, but none of them ever really tried to explain what each one meant. ------

Perhaps you dont understand? instead of otherwise?

I'm pretty new to Wing Chun, but I'm going to make an attempt to describe the meaning behind each point. I would REALLY like some feedback on whether understanding is right or not.--------

Great try. however, it is not neccesary to put others in fault position " none of them ever really....." since you also in learning stage. we all in learning stage.

2. “GˆêˆÚ“®
Dik yut yee dong - Once the enemy moves
This is just part of a complete phrases which goes along the lines of: "if the enemy moves, I have moved first". Similar to "I move later, but hit first".

3. ’†S›ß‹ó
Sum jung yee hung - mind/heart is empty
No distracting thoughts in the mind. No preconceived ideas or expectations. Not really sure about this one!-------------

The 2 and 3 can not be seperated.
It said " when the oponent make a move, his/her balance is off"

This sentence is apply only to the enermy who practice stretch art.
where when strect to hit losing the Zhong.

Kuen kuit has what it is described part and also the part which was implied or understood.
and, kuen kuit is not a omni magic matra of one fits all.

5. ˜AÁ›æ‘Å
Leen siu dai daar - Simultaneous block and attack/stike
The siu doesn't really mean block, more like diminish - this reinforces the idea of redirecting the opponents force rather than a direct block.----------------

Here only present a concept without details. There are two level in this concept.

Until one understand sending is not streching , see through the physical body into the energy flow; this siu or consume is implement with angle and line shift-- a limb art.

when knowing the energy body flow, then siu become using his force to against him. or consume and attack in the "same" instant. a full range art.

8. æá¢§l
Seen faat tsay yun - strike first to subdue the enemy
Again it seems straight-forward to assume that if you can srtike first, make the strike count and subdue the enemy. And no, we're not talking about a one-kill strike here! ---------

This kuit has a problem. it contradict the number 5 above.
WCK is a sending art. Thus, as saying in chinese --- it is similar to asnake. if one hit a snake with a stick. the snake will travel on the stick to attack one"

so, WCK will not strike first but that doesnt mean wck will not arive first similar to the snake using the stick as " a direct path" to attack the person holding that stick.

This sentence should be --- How Fatt Seen Tsay. Fatt is release not strike as hit. so, it should be "release later first to arrive .

if we remember, WCK is a sensing art, it sense the energy flow then release. Without the oponent commit or seduce him to commit, one will not commit to release.

13. –³‰e”j’†
Mo ying por jung - No shadow, break/attack the centre
Seems a bit like a last resort to me, but goes to the heart of it. The enemy has no discernable patterns, his attacks are too fast to stop/detain or he doesn't attack at all, just defence. You have nothing to work with - he's not showing you how to defeat himeself - just strike through his centre.----------

Without the capability of sending with crossbow analogy speedy short delay activation jing and taking others place. this cannot be done effectively. Limb only art will get into trouble when the advance fighter rush in. or he is waiting to read your pattern.

This is the teaching of Biu jee set or the section 3 and 4 of Yik Kam's SLT. It is not the last resort but to finished the match in one short.

Zhong here means balance. can be physical or mental.

[B]15. ˆÈUˆ×Žç
Yee gung wai sau - Use offence as defence
Not going to say much about this, this is a well understood idea. However, it does "lay to rest" the myth that Wing Chun is an all out attacking art. --------

Without the sending type Speed jing, this can become a streching art. this will fall into the fault of 2 and 3.-------- the when the oponent make a move, his/her balance is off"

Kuen kuit, cannot be taken as omni magic matra.
it has to be understood with its implementation and skill level needed for implementation.

It is also a pattern of general old chinese way or evolution that 1, some reverse kuit was placing in kuit to act as seal to seal off the true meaning so the one who stolent the kuit will not beable to unseal it.
2, sometimes, kuit was expanded due to the expander has no idea about the core teaching. thus, it will mix with contradict phrases.
3, interpletation of the kuit depend greatly on the interpleter's attainment in skill. For the advance master can use the reverse as the forward. the looks wrong to be the proper.

We today dont know which is the case. So, a good understanding of the core philisophy and implementation of the art is needed.
It cannot be understood precisely without the above.

Just some thought

Gangsterfist

02-19-2004, 09:20 AM

Hendrik

You speak chinese perhaps you can translate this one for me:

Guan Mo Leung Heung (The staff doesn't make two sounds)

Does that mean that the long pole should never strike twice? Does it mean that your techniques should not need to be applied twice? Does it mean don't hit the enemies weapon more than once, like if you were defanging the snake so to speak?

The thing is it probably means several things. Like Biu Jee, that also has several meanings deeper than thrusting fingers.

Phenix

02-19-2004, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Hendrik

You speak chinese perhaps you can translate this one for me:

Guan Mo Leung Heung (The staff doesn't make two sounds)

Does that mean that the long pole should never strike twice? Does it mean that your techniques should not need to be applied twice? Does it mean don't hit the enemies weapon more than once, like if you were defanging the snake so to speak?

The thing is it probably means several things. Like Biu Jee, that also has several meanings deeper than thrusting fingers.

Rene,

Where is yourkuen kuit translation collection? Can't find in your site no more. :D

Gangsterfist,

It is not only depent on speaking chinese. as I try to mention above.

Honestly, you want sifu like Robert Chu who's expertise in pole to explain this.

For me, in my lineage, pole is not suppose to make sound. it coil and slips in..... I view it as what are we going to achive? not into deep thinking.

CFT

02-19-2004, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by Phenix
There have been threads posted previously about the Wing Chun kuen kuit, but none of them ever really tried to explain what each one meant. ------

Perhaps you dont understand? instead of otherwise? Hendrik,
Thanks for the lengthy response, you've definitely made me think differently on some of the kuen kuit.

Any thoughts on 10 - 13?

What I meant in my original post was that as far as I was aware, no one had gone through a list of kuen kuit and explained/described what they meant. What lessons were to be learnt.

I agree that they are not omnipotent mantras, but they are in my opinion teaching aids which partly or even wholly encapsulate the Wing Chun philosophies.

Phenix

02-19-2004, 09:42 AM

CFT,

Understood.

10 -12, get Rene in. I think he has that in his web before.

I told you #13 right? :D

I agree that they are not omnipotent mantras, but they are in my opinion teaching aids which partly or even wholly encapsulate the Wing Chun philosophies.---------

The trouble comes with whether we think with chakra 1,2,3 or 5, 6, and 7. :D

CFT

02-19-2004, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by Phenix
I told you #13 right?Whoops ... you're quite right. I did read it, honest !! :D

The trouble comes with whether we think with chakra 1,2,3 or 5, 6, and 7. :D Doh!!! :confused:

joy chaudhuri

02-19-2004, 10:58 AM

Phenix

02-19-2004, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by CFT

Doh!!! :confused:

That thought of revenge. That feeling of being feeling burn. That feeling of suddent heavy because we lost.... be cause we are conner due to our mistake or other's purposely manupulation. ...

Those are the 1 to 3 instinct.

Following that, we stay in stuffy, heavy, hot in our head.... we lock ourself in a rigid " I am feeling bad and you are going to pay... anger.... "

Not easy to aware of those feelings and not following it and not give one's authority to that....

Easy to say then get there.....

Thus, kuen kuit is difficult because there is a factor need to be look at that ----- what if those who wrote the kuit has already knows how to deal with the heavy, the hot, the darkness ---- appear dark and close in in our mind, no longer clear, we just want to do anything out of it........

Not easy at all.....

Chan is part of the story, how to decent from non-duality to duality and being there but not being there. It was said, it takes millions of kalpa... right? Joy?

joy chaudhuri

02-19-2004, 11:29 AM

Chee-I have already commented on the pole and the sound..some additional comments on yours-may or may not be the same as others or may over lap.

1. °ò²»Í£Áô
Bong but ting lau - Bong does not stay stay
I've read alot on this forum, and elsewhere, that the bong sau is a transitional structure and so one should not hold a bong sau for longer than necessary

((Ok but Careful- one needs to know when the bong has done it's job)

2. ”³Ò»ÒÆ„Ó
Dik yut yee dong - Once the enemy moves
This is just part of a complete phrases which goes along the lines of: "if the enemy moves, I have moved first". Similar to "I move later, but hit first".

((Old as Sun Tsu- I arrive earlier. IF you know the line-attack as soon as the enmy shows slightest motion)

3. ÖÐÐÄÒÑ¿Õ
Sum jung yee hung - mind/heart is empty
No distracting thoughts in the mind. No preconceived ideas or expectations. Not really sure about this one!

((Not churning with emotion- watch everything. Madden to a Raider player going in-- watch for the pass. Watch for the run. Watch everything))

4. È_ÓÉÐÄ°l (ÊÖÓÉÐÄ°l)
Kuen yow sum faat - The fist srtikes from the heart/centre
Possible double meaning here. First is the obvious centre-line theory, second is that we should strike with intent.

((Both. At the heart- the mechanics of both hands come together.
Heart is also a center of focussed intent and will))

5. ßBÏûŽ§´ò
Leen siu dai daar - Simultaneous block and attack/stike
The siu doesn't really mean block, more like diminish - this reinforces the idea of redirecting the opponents force rather than a direct block.

((Also two handedness- one hand always helping the other))

6. íÁôÈ¥ËÍ
Loy lau hui soong - Detain what comes, escort what leaves
Can mean many things I think. I don't think that it necessarily means to trap an opponents hands, whether incoming or outgoing. For that matter, what about trapping legs? Don't want to get into the chasing hands scenario. I think this phrase could also mean maintaining the correct combat distance wherever yor opponent moves.

((Control incoming energy-sendout your own))

7. Ë¦ÊÖÖ±Ðn (·éË¦Ö±Ðn)
Lut sau tsik chung - Upon loss of contact, strike ahead
Seems straight-forward, but I always have the feeling that it means more than just to go straight in (through the centre) upon loss of contact with the opponents arms/hands.

((Nature abhors a vacuum. STRIKE))

8. ÏÈ°lÖÆÈË
Seen faat tsay yun - strike first to subdue the enemy
Again it seems straight-forward to assume that if you can srtike first, make the strike count and subdue the enemy. And no, we're not talking about a one-kill strike here!

((WC is not just a counter punching art.When the opportunity is there-attack is the best defense))

9. Òò•r¶ø¹¥
Yun se yee gung - Attack when the opportunity occurs
"Se" is time/conditions, so I think the phrase just means to attack at the appropriate time or when conditions are right.

((When you sense a line...attack))

The next 4 I have real problems with.

10. ÓÐÐÎ´òÐÎ
Yau ying daa ying - if there is a shape, hit the shape
What is this shape? Does this refer to a visible pattern of behaviour in your enemy? e.g. they always use a certain parry/block/defence, they always dodge left/right, etc. So attack what is predictable behaviour.

((The enemy as a ball of energy. If the timing is right forget about blocking etc- attack the center of the mass of ene

11. ŸoÐÎ´òÓ°
Mo ying daa ying- if there is no shape, hit the shadow
Even more confusing for me. What is the shadow - the enemy's attack/strike? So we just respond to their attacks and attack their strikes.

((((In a real fight things may be blurred at times-focus on the center of the blur))))

12. ÓÐÓ°ÀmÁô
Yau ying juk lau - if there is a shadow, keep detaining it
The enemy strikes, but don't let them recover to make more attacks. Detain them at the end of, or midway through, their strike.

((Control- when contact is made))

13. ŸoÓ°ÆÆÖÐ
Mo ying por jung - No shadow, break/attack the centre
Seems a bit like a last resort to me, but goes to the heart of it. The enemy has no discernable patterns, his attacks are too fast to stop/detain or he doesn't attack at all, just defence. You have nothing to work with - he's not showing you how to defeat himeself - just strike through his centre.

((Cut the Gordian knot- break into his structure with intent))

14. ÒÔÊØžé¹¥
15. ÒÔ¹¥žéÊØ
Yee sau wai gung - Use defence as offence
Yee gung wai sau - Use offence as defence
Not going to say much about this, this is a well understood idea. However, it does "lay to rest" the myth that Wing Chun is an all out attacking art.

((The defensive hand can alsobe the attacking hand-no rechambering needed.
Rather than waiting for defending- dont be one move behind))

joy chaudhuri

02-19-2004, 11:30 AM

Gangsterfist

02-19-2004, 12:02 PM

Thanks joy, that is what I figured but have never had anyone explain it to me. I guess it could be applied to lots of things besides the long pole.

Ultimatewingchun

02-19-2004, 04:58 PM

About numbers 10-11-12-13 :

Substitute the word "body" for shape and the word "limb(s)" for shadow...

Then it becomes clear...IMO.

02-19-2004, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
About numbers 10-11-12-13 :

Substitute the word "body" for shape and the word "limb(s)" for shadow...

Then it becomes clear...IMO.

You're right. That does make a lot more sense.

Regards,
- kj

Phenix

02-19-2004, 09:04 PM

I look at 10 to 13 in the above as the descrition of dealing with 3 levels of attainment.

Level 1: Shape

10, Yau ying daa ying - if there is a shape, focus/strike out the shape

Shape is posture, in Cat Stance, TaiJi's Peng posture, Xing Yi's San Chai posture....... or BaiJong.
It is refer to dealing with a static/semi static structural level.

standing in Cat stance, the post itself will have its pro and cons. So, attack the center of the particula structure via weakness of that post, shape, or Jong with angle, lines... distance.... .

This called for detail analisis and understanding of various type of structure....

First level is about the physical structure, line time, line space, strenght.

Level 2: Shadow

11. Mo ying daa ying- if there is no shape, hit the shadow
12. Yau ying juk lau - if there is a shadow, keep detaining it

Shadow is the core motion. This refer to dealing with a dynamic motion type level.

When thing is in motion, the will have no constant shape or post, thus one deal with motion. One needs to know the core of the motion. Take a way the " main engine" of that motion.

This called for detail analisis and understanding of various type of major motion. Open, Close, Sink, rise with its combination and resultant force.

Second level is about the dynamic motion--- change, time and space is non-linear, momentum, acceralation, resultant force.

Level 3: No Shadow

13. Mo ying por jung - No shadow, break/attack the centre

No Shadow is enegy, beyond core motion ---- energy flow.
This refer to dealing with energy type level.

This level called for be able to read through the physical and motion penetrating into the energy flow. Thus, with one short, destroy the Zhong --- balance of the physical, motion, and or mental.

Third level is about energy flow beyond motion and posture ---- enter into non-duality, visual, intention, scaning... wholelistic... relative time, relative space, conservation of energy. wave generation.

(We might not want to refer Shadow as limb because if we do that then we can mistaken for chasing the hands.....ect)

Just some thought

yuanfen

02-19-2004, 09:20 PM

Hendrik sez:

(We might not want to refer Shadow as limb because if we do that then we can mistaken for chasing the hands.....ect)

---------------------------------------EXACTLY.
Joy

Gangsterfist

02-19-2004, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
About numbers 10-11-12-13 :

Substitute the word "body" for shape and the word "limb(s)" for shadow...

Then it becomes clear...IMO.

That is how my sifu explained it to us, and I believe my sigong explained it to my sifu.

When there is no form, strike the shadow.

Phenix

02-19-2004, 11:00 PM

For fun of discussion only,

Why I think Shadow is better not to substitude with limb

lets look at the:

--------
12. ÓÐÓ°ÀmÁô
Yau ying juk lau - if there is a shadow, keep detaining it
The enemy strikes, but don't let them recover to make more attacks. Detain them at the end of, or midway through, their strike.
-------

As we know, we can hold one arm and the other might still be able strike us.
But if we jam the COG in motion. we kept everything in control.

thus,
12. become---- put the core of motion on hold (when ) there is motion.

just some thought

PaulH

02-20-2004, 12:25 AM

Phew! Hendrik's done it again! I think I will send you all my Gary Lam's collection of Kuen Kuits so you can annotate them at your pleasure. "Yau Ying juk lau" is one of Hawkins Cheung's specialty. Not too long ago he got tested by two "friendly" top students of a certain well-known xxx on his trip abroad. The old man, as Ernie put it, took them for a ride. Those poor guys never had a chance!

Regards,
PH

CFT

02-20-2004, 02:57 AM

Phew indeed!!!

As I thought, there are no definitive answers but this is probably a good thing. Everything should be subject to personal interpretation and expression.

However, all responses have been of high quality and are thought provoking. I have a lot to think about know.

Many thanks for everyone's time and effort. It's all much appreciated.

BiuJeeDawg

02-20-2004, 06:05 AM

Hey Yuanfen,

2 Questions for you:

#1 - Are these "out of print" books the same ones that tell of Fong's "Golden Ribbon Boxer" challenge match defending Ho Kam Ming's school in Hong Kong?

#2 - Who's the publisher of those books that are out of print? Do you have an address in which interested parties could purchase?

Phenix

02-20-2004, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
Phew! Hendrik's done it again! I think I will send you all my Gary Lam's collection of Kuen Kuits so you can annotate them at your pleasure. ..

Thanks for Gary's collection in Advance.

Dont you know by now that I am a pokemon ?

I love wck pokemon cards collection too :D
and I read mind and copy thier implementation. hehehe

02-20-2004, 06:42 AM

Originally posted by Phenix
Dont you know by now that I am a pokemon ?

ROFLOL!! I believe you are! :D
- kj

Phenix

02-20-2004, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by kj

ROFLOL!! I believe you are! :D
- kj

Sister KJ,

Jiglypuff here !

PaulH

02-20-2004, 10:09 AM

Hendrik,

Just PM or e-mail me PaulH@superbainc.com your address. I'll send you the Kuits. Thanks.

Regards,
PH

Phenix

02-20-2004, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

Just PM or e-mail me PaulH@superbainc.com your address. I'll send you the Kuits. Thanks.

Regards,
PH

Pual,

Thanks. I will.

Jiglypuff.

Ultimatewingchun

02-20-2004, 11:27 AM

Look...We don't have to get all esoteric about this...it's really not all that difficult to understand:

Remember the first part of #6: Detain what comes ?

And #7 - Upon loss of contact, strike ahead ?

If you lose contact with a limb (ie.- his arm)...strike ahead to his body or head/face, etc.

Well...Should there be any surprise that 10 through 13 expand upon these concepts ?

10) If you can hit the shape (body or head/face) - HIT IT !...."If there is a shape, hit the shape."

11) If there is no body to hit (ie.- distance is too far)...STRIKE/KICK THE LIMBS (arms/legs)...."If there is no shape, hit the shadow".

12) If there are limbs (ie. an arm)... keep detaining it...(see #6 again)...THAT DOESN'T MEAN TO CHASE IT...JUST DETAIN IT !(or "stick" to it)...."If there is a shadow, keep detaining it."

13) No limbs to detain (or hit) - BREAK. HERE WE ARE BEING REMINDED NOT TO CHASE THEM...and then attack the center....."No shadow/break/attack the center."

13)

Phenix

02-20-2004, 11:44 AM

Victor,

Good points!

[Censored]

02-20-2004, 01:55 PM

On the pole not making more than one sound---

preferably no sound-one strike and its over. Sometimes-
you control the other weapon once and you slip in...
two sounds? You are begiining losing- after that you have lost.

I would like to suggest an alternate, literal interpretation. When you are first learning to use a stick or pole, you do not understand how to apply the proper time/force curve (determined by the weapon weight, length, and flexibility). As a result, when you hit a hard surface, your weapon will bounce away slightly, and hit again a fraction of a second later, making two sounds.

Once you have gained some experience, you can impart all your force in a single solid blow. One sound, no bounce.

Gangsterfist

02-20-2004, 01:58 PM

Ah that makes sense about the 2 sounds. I have done acorn training. This is where you go outside near an acorn tree. Strike every acorn on the ground you see with the long pole and try and crack them open. Its fun and a lot harder than you think.

Redboat

03-10-2004, 10:18 PM

I would like to purchase a copy of Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit by Moy Yat & C N Kwong 1982.....If you have any information on where I may find a copy for have a copy for sale please email me directly or post .........

guroMARV

03-31-2004, 03:43 PM

You might be able to get it at the vtmuseum.org website. In your opinion, what is the best instructional video series showing traditional wing chun? Just wondering.

Mon Sao

03-27-2008, 06:02 PM

I don't know if anyone knows, but Moy yat's book Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit is back in print. I saw it on eBay and they have a website, too.

Ultimatewingchun

03-27-2008, 07:36 PM

I have an original copy of the book from my old days as his student.

sanjuro_ronin

03-28-2008, 05:15 AM

Is the book good?

couch

03-28-2008, 05:50 AM

Thank you,
Kenton Sefcik

Mon Sao

03-29-2008, 08:46 AM

Is the book good?

The book is very good. Definatly "old school" (chinese methodology) in its presentation of material. For those not familiar with the book, this is from the website:
In 1967 Grandmaster Moy Yat and his student Chi-Nam Kwong engraved the Ving Tsun history and idioms (Kuen Kuit) onto a set of 51 seals, and were originally published as a Chinese-only edition. In 1980 Grandmaster Moy Yat's disciple Moy Wo Tin was given the task of translating the seals into English. The first edition of this book was a result of his 2 year effort and included not only stampings of the seals and their English translation, but original artwork, photographs, and anecdotes by Grandmaster Moy Yat and his senior students concerning the proper study of the Ving Tsun System.
14Publishing.com (http://14Publishing.com)

couch

03-29-2008, 10:21 AM

I've just ordered a copy. I'll let everyone know about it after I receive it.

The only other book I have from my family is Ving Tsun Trilogy by Moy Yat. It's a nice form reference and I like the short quips about the forms. I also have some family vids that have been passed down to me from my Sifu. For the most part, it's nice collecting some of this stuff just to have it. I think that's why lineage has some usage: being part of an extended "family."

Bruce said: You know what I want to think of myself? As a human being. because, I mean I don't want to be like "As Confucius say," but under the sky, under the heavens there is but one family. It just so happens that people are different.

Best,
Kenton

couch

04-10-2008, 10:38 AM

Today I received "Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit" by Moy Yat and C.N. Kwong

First of all, I trace my lineage from:
Yip Man, Moy Yat, Sunny Tang, Joeseph Boychuk, Dave Harris

...therefore I enjoy collecting the odd Moy family treasure.

The book is quite nice. It came bubble wrapped and was in perfect condition when it arrived. It has 116 pages and 104 of the pages are dedicated to the Kuen Kuit and the history of WC. I quite enjoyed the fact that the lineage from Ng Mui on was put down on the chops. Also, each form and several exercises are included as idioms. Basically, on the left side of the book is the photo of the chop and the right side has the saying and translation.

At the end are a few photos of Yip Man, Moy Yat, and others; as well as some calligraphy.

My favourite part of the book is the short story Moy 4 (John Cheng) shares about his start in Ving Tsun. It's these stories of old that bring back the days of what "kung-fu life" was all about.

My hope is that others interested in the Moy line, or perhaps even just those wanting a complete reference of the Kuen Kuit in one book, will pick this up.

Best,
Kenton

LoneTiger108

04-10-2008, 12:14 PM

My hope is that others interested in the Moy line, or perhaps even just those wanting a complete reference of the Kuen Kuit in one book, will pick this up.

As a collector of Wing Chun literature I am tempted to get a copy myself now Kenton!

Thanks for the feedback, as you've helped me decide what to do...

Tom Kagan

04-10-2008, 04:00 PM

My hope is that others interested in the Moy line, or perhaps even just those wanting a complete reference of the Kuen Kuit in one book, will pick this up.

True story:

Moy Yat and I cut up his very last copy of the original printing of the book. We used two of the photos for something else. The rest of the pages he used as scrap for cleaning/blotting his art brushes.

Mon Sao

04-10-2008, 05:01 PM

Here's a link to the website
www.14publishing.com (http://www.14publishing.com)

Yoshiyahu

05-05-2009, 07:05 PM

I wanted to share some sayings from Yuen Kay San Kuen Kuit says about fighting with Wing Chun.

Enemies are fought fiercely and attacks may be initiated in order to gain control.

Once an initial attack is made, it is followed in succession until the target is no more.

Lien Juk Bot Ting lao - (Continue without stopping or staying)

Hok Ying San, Long Ying Kiu -Body like a crane, arms like swimming dragons).

Bong Baat Ting Lao - (Bong never stays).

Yee Ching Jai Dong - (Use stillness to overcome Movement)

Fa Chuk Dui Sao Chi - (Explore changes by sticking with a partner)

Lik Chui Jee Gok Chuen - (Strength is aware, it follows and changes with feeling)

Sien Faat Jai Yan - (Move first to gain the initiative)

As force comes, it should be recieved and kept. It is never resisted or knocked away, but accepted and adhered to.

As force goes, its acommpanied and added to.

When loss of contact occurs, or the body is crossed, charge straight down the meridian line.

If the root is stable, the fight will be stable.

Wing Chun Boxers must learn to apply their power in the most advantageous way, moving with the wind, rather than against it.

What do you guys think about this?

AdrianK

05-05-2009, 09:41 PM

I've never liked vague sayings of so-called wisdom. The English language is more than capable of explaining these simple principles, literally.

(Continue without stopping or staying)

Once an initial attack is made, it is followed in succession until the target is no more.

Goes without saying :)

(Explore changes by sticking with a partner)

Something taught and understood by those who have trained chi sao.

(Use stillness to overcome Movement)

Or... relax.

-Body like a crane, arms like swimming dragons).

Do dragons even swim? :p

That being said, I have much respect the Yuen Kay San lineage, but every style has these ridiculous things we really need to let go of. Historically they're great to have, but functionally they serve little to no purpose and can be misinterpreted to no end... Look at the train wreck of interpretations of Jeet Kune Do, for instance.

Violent Designs

05-05-2009, 11:24 PM

Yeah in Chinese mythology Dragons can swim and do pretty much anything, it would be so ****ing badass to be a dragon.

Yoshiyahu

05-06-2009, 01:18 PM

Does anyone have anything share concerning Kuen Kuit...or Yuen Kay San?

Pacman

05-06-2009, 01:25 PM

do you study YKS wing chun? if so, under who?

Yoshiyahu

05-07-2009, 08:39 AM

I study Yuen Kay San from one of students of Robert McField when he use to teach traditional Wing Chun under the instruction of Mau Chang.

Vajramusti

05-07-2009, 09:24 AM

Very few people learned extensively from Sum Nun- who I respect.
I know zilch about Yosiyahu's wing chun background. Not very clear. His numerous posts show very uneven
understanding of wing chun- including the posts on hard training with sand, rocks, wood piercing etc. I know atleast two persons personally who have developed gnarled arthritic fingers and knuckles from similar training.
Some lines including mine has extensive listing of kuen kuit. They can be insighful if properly translated, properly understood, properly explained and limited in the appropriate contexts.
They are no substitute for proper guidance, correction, practice and experience.
But no worries- yoshiyahu will keep on preaching on whatever he wants.
Forward through the jabberwocky.

joy chaudhuri

Yoshiyahu

05-07-2009, 05:30 PM

You are right I will continue preaching what ever I want...you are correct.

An who. I never learned from sum nung. I never met the man. I started training WC in the early 90's. Any way. I personally believe some form of conditioning can assist your wing chun such as iron arms and iron palms. Iron arms and Iron fingers. Iron arms and Iron toe kick. etc. I think training one of these extra kungs can increase your kung fu. Even boxers train a form of iron body and iron fist.

They hit a sand bag thousands of time. Jump rope for light skills and stamina. They use medicine balls,push ups and sit ups to make their bodies hard enough to endure a punch.

Why do you feel Wing Chun doesn't need a kung.

Do you believe in inch power?

Very few people learned extensively from Sum Nun- who I respect.
I know zilch about Yosiyahu's wing chun background. Not very clear. His numerous posts show very uneven
understanding of wing chun- including the posts on hard training with sand, rocks, wood piercing etc. I know atleast two persons personally who have developed gnarled arthritic fingers and knuckles from similar training.
Some lines including mine has extensive listing of kuen kuit. They can be insighful if properly translated, properly understood, properly explained and limited in the appropriate contexts.
They are no substitute for proper guidance, correction, practice and experience.
But no worries- yoshiyahu will keep on preaching on whatever he wants.
Forward through the jabberwocky.

joy chaudhuri

Genetic

05-07-2009, 05:47 PM

Vajramusti

05-07-2009, 05:52 PM

Yoshiyahu

05-07-2009, 06:07 PM

Why do you feel Wing Chun doesn't need a kung.

Do you believe in inch power?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A response-
1. I am not sure that you understand what a kung is.

There are several different gings already in wing chun. Iron toes and iron fingers are not gings.

2. Inch power- yes- you better believe it-but not developed your way.

joy chaudhuri

Joy well young lady a Kung is a skill. Ging is something different than a Kung.

Joy...Do you believe Iron Sand Palm is apart of Wing Chun?

AS for iron fingers What does Kuen Kuit say:

Biu Jee

- The Biu Jee hand contains emergency techniques.

- Iron fingers can strike a vital point at once.

Please read the Kuen Kuit on Bil gee an tell if Iron Fingers is apart of Wing Chun?
http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/maxims-kuen-kuit.htm#Biu_Jee

Whats your definition of KUNG?

Whats your Definitin of GING or JING?

Inch Power is different than Iron Palm and Iron fingers...

I believe your inch power is the size of your **** Yoshi.

You seem to be in search of some kind of affirmation outside of reality.

Good luck.

Wow the size of my peineal man figure is seven and half inches long and three fingers width. So I guess power can extend force to 7 1/2 inches...great...One inch equals seven...cool beans if you asked me. No I simply share things I have learned or inquired of my Sifu in the past. To here others knowledge or lack thereof.

Vajramusti

05-07-2009, 06:20 PM

Edmund

05-07-2009, 06:37 PM

Yoshiyahu

05-07-2009, 06:50 PM

Joy well young lady a Kung is a skill

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A response_ sorry that you missed the wing chun train and civility as well... plus reading.

joy chaudhuri

Please share what do you mean by wing chun civility?

Answer my question please::::::

Joy...Do you believe Iron Sand Palm is apart of Wing Chun?

AS for iron fingers What does Kuen Kuit say:

Biu Jee

- The Biu Jee hand contains emergency techniques.

- Iron fingers can strike a vital point at once.

Please read the Kuen Kuit on Bil gee an tell if Iron Fingers is apart of Wing Chun?
http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/ma...it.htm#Biu_Jee

CFT

05-08-2009, 04:06 AM

Joy well young lady a Kung is a skill.
Joy is not young (sorry Joy!) and is not a lady.

Vajramusti

05-08-2009, 06:15 AM

Like good wine- it get's better with time.

joy chaudhuri

Yoshiyahu

05-08-2009, 06:51 AM

AdrianK

05-08-2009, 12:35 PM

Actually women are the opposite of wine. Why else do you think Middle age men divorce their wives for younger women. Call it the middle age crisis or what ever. But there is a reason why older men date younger women. Could it be younger is better.

I personally think its more because those people shouldn't be getting married in the first place. The majority of marriages take place at such a young age because people think loving and caring for someone is so easy.

It really isn't. To be emotionally available for your partner when they need you, to put their life and well-being ahead of your own, and to foster a healthy relationship devoid of the ridiculous trappings of many relationships, like possessiveness and jealousy, is actually an extremely difficult thing to do.

On a side note, lol @ joy is a lady comment.

sanjuro_ronin

05-08-2009, 12:43 PM

Actually women are the opposite of wine. Why else do you think Middle age men divorce their wives for younger women. Call it the middle age crisis or what ever. But there is a reason why older men date younger women. Could it be younger is better.

Its called a midlife crisis and happens when men with unfullfilled issues try to "recapture" their youth by humiliating themselves with a younger woman.

And Joy is not only a man, he has been doing WC longer than you have been alive , probably, and deserves the utmost respect as a MA and a valued poster here.

Yoshiyahu

05-08-2009, 01:58 PM

I personally think its more because those people shouldn't be getting married in the first place. The majority of marriages take place at such a young age because people think loving and caring for someone is so easy.

It really isn't. To be emotionally available for your partner when they need you, to put their life and well-being ahead of your own, and to foster a healthy relationship devoid of the ridiculous trappings of many relationships, like possessiveness and jealousy, is actually an extremely difficult thing to do.

On a side note, lol @ joy is a lady comment.

Well spoken and heartfelt. Wow...How many middle age men are really ready for marriage. I mean look at all the guys in their forties who remarry and still fall into the same trappings as you mentioned? What has change with age?

Nada, still the same ole crapola.

sanjuro_ronin

I respect fighters....If your a fighter I will respect you too. if i disrespect you then maybe we should fight so you can give me a reason to respect you again!!!!

Hardwork108

05-08-2009, 03:22 PM

I personally think its more because those people shouldn't be getting married in the first place. The majority of marriages take place at such a young age because people think loving and caring for someone is so easy.
Agreed. Sometimes I think that there should be a law against immature people getting married.

...... to foster a healthy relationship devoid of the ridiculous trappings of many relationships, like possessiveness and jealousy, is actually an extremely difficult thing to do.
Hey, don´t tell me that you are a swinger...:p Just kidding.

VERY GOOD POST!:)

Vajramusti

05-09-2009, 06:52 AM

No worries.
I just ignore wiseguys- they are a dime a dozen.

On the kuen kuit- they can be useful with the right experience and intuition- often
irrelevant if taken without developing insight.

Finger development is there in wing chun with proper skill development-fairly useless against
skilled opponents without the proper skill development.

The kuen kuit was supposedly the starting subject of the thread-but it got pierced by screaming egos and ended up as most threads do in this forum. But- no worries.

joy chaudhuri

Yoshiyahu

05-09-2009, 10:23 AM

Excellent come back Joy...So tell me are you really a man? I never heard a man called Joy...do you reside in america????

No worries.
I just ignore wiseguys- they are a dime a dozen.

On the kuen kuit- they can be useful with the right experience and intuition- often
irrelevant if taken without developing insight.

Finger development is there in wing chun with proper skill development-fairly useless against
skilled opponents without the proper skill development.

The kuen kuit was supposedly the starting subject of the thread-but it got pierced by screaming egos and ended up as most threads do in this forum. But- no worries.

joy chaudhuri

Hendrik

05-09-2009, 10:29 AM

Excellent come back Joy...So tell me are you really a man? I never heard a man called Joy...do you reside in america????

Joy is a professor in USA's University and a senior sifu.

http://www.tempewingchun.com/index.html

Yoshiyahu

05-09-2009, 10:31 AM

Joy is a professor in USA's University and a senior sifu.

http://www.tempewingchun.com/index.html

wow hendrik your a joy?

Anyway have you read the YKS Kuen Kuit?

Hendrik

05-09-2009, 11:22 AM

wow hendrik your a joy?

Anyway have you read the YKS Kuen Kuit?

Joy is my friend so what's wrong with speaking the truth for an old friend? speaking about communication, how friendly is your communication attitude?

I dont read kuen kuit be it Yik Kam's or YKS or IpMan. Because Kuen kuit is not a lyrics for a pop song. :D

Vajramusti

05-09-2009, 11:53 AM

It's a mistake to respond to that person and other baiting and trolling.
Not worth wasting energy on attention seekers.
Kind regards. Joy Chaudhuri

Kansuke

05-09-2009, 09:14 PM

Agreed. Sometimes I think that there should be a law against immature people getting married.

In your case, I guess natural selection will take care of that problem by itself.

Hendrik

05-10-2009, 09:47 AM

Remember the WCK is the art of the opera actor?

The following clips are what the kuen kuit communicate/ means into day's communication.
You dont need Chinese or English which misled,

Let Jennifer Lopez Show the basic beyond language in a four dimensional reality. and use your knowing to know. Stop your brain. using Chinese term has become to much a burden.

Come accept, Goes ..... using silence to lead action.... Rooting...chisau... fajing in multimedia presentation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bibtqDxXv1o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKV4QzNKI2g&feature=related

if you rooting is not like the above you are dead meat and Turn into damm rigid sit still dead Wooden dummy deserve to get beat and take down. So make your choice you want to be a WCner or a Wooden dummy?

WCK is very different compare to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0

Because WCK needs to have a waist of snake and a flow of Qi/ liveliness in every part of the body and movements. No wait no sit still no stop no rooting the comming force into the ground (which nail oneself dead and stuck) ; but all lifely continous action --- flow and spin.

stop those BS intepretation of Kuen Kuit.....rooting... fajing Mental fantasy which is clueless but lots of words.

It is the time to start a Latin WCK to experess the spirit of WCK in the modern way.
get a life man!

If you dont like my post, ignore it. and dont complain about my communication because my agenda is to get those who like WCK to be out of the dead seal box --- give WCK a fresh lively new begining.

I can make use of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQw5s2oiqk0

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5w3M1b7mTY&feature=related

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXJWg23W4Ag&feature=related

doesnt matter. what is important is life. What is not Zen?

The following is what Praise the Spring is about

...............If you wanna live your life
Live it all the way and don't you waste it
Every feelin' every beat
Can be so very sweet you gotta taste it
You gotta do it, you gotta do it your way
You gotta prove it
You gotta mean what you say
Life's a party, make it hot
Dance don't ever stop, whatever rhythm
Every minute, every day
Take them all the way you gotta live 'em ('cause I'm going to live my life)
You gotta do it, you gotta do it your way......
You gotta prove it
You gotta mean what you say
You gotta do it, you gotta do it your way
You gotta prove it
You gotta mean what you say

Hendrik

05-10-2009, 11:53 AM

If you cant loose up every join of your body in SNT you cant fajing.

If you cant float in the 3 dimension and keep balance like a beach ball on top of the in the YJKYM you can transcent incoming force. What root?

When WCK trying to be Shao Lin, Hung Gar, CLF, BJJ....... it is no longer WCK but bunch of stuck : Shao Lin, Hung Gar..... wanna bee but good at none. No White Crane's poise and No Snake's twist and spin. That is how far WCK has gone down.

Better off let WCK goes Latin atleast its basic spirit re birth.

If Jujitshu can go Brazial why not WCK go Latin who said universal reality can be present only in Chinese?

Hendrik

05-10-2009, 01:29 PM

Dont believe me?

hahaha,

Some WC Pioner has addressed it and do it (yes Latin way) 50 years ago :D.

see for yourself.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzLhiWd9Efw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw29UWhLj4k

BAck to Jennifer...

Do you get what you're hoping for?
When you look behind you there's no open doors
What are you hoping for?
Do you know?

Once we were standing still in time
Chasing the fantasies
That filled our minds
You knew how I loved you
But my spirit was free
Laughing at the questions
That you once asked of me

Now looking back at all we've planned
We let so many dreams
Just slip through our hands
Why must we wait so long?
Before we see
How sad the answers
To those questions can be ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaoGuZA0sCo

Hardwork108

05-10-2009, 01:42 PM

In your case, I guess natural selection will take care of that problem by itself.
Well "natural selection" did not take care of the problem of your parents getting married and having you, did it?

Kansuke

05-10-2009, 02:04 PM

Weak 3rd grade response as usual, basement boy.

Hardwork108

05-10-2009, 02:13 PM

I´ll just have to take Joy Chaudhuri´s advice on this one.;)

punchdrunk

05-10-2009, 03:19 PM

I think your trying to say ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC-9s8aR_MI

Genetic

05-10-2009, 05:08 PM

WC Pioneer? Bruce Lee did less than 3 years of WC, and from clips of him doing wing chun, looks like he had a lot to learn. He was only young.

But it was the start of his martial arts journey, and he learned a lot. He was a pioneer of jeet kune do. And a (life) force to be reckoned with.

"When WCK trying to be Shao Lin, Hung Gar, CLF, BJJ....... it is no longer WCK but bunch of stuck : Shao Lin, Hung Gar..... wanna bee but good at none. No White Crane's poise and No Snake's twist and spin. That is how far WCK has gone down."

er...but you call Bruce Lee a 'WC Pioneer' but dismiss drawing knowledge from other arts...

Keep searching for your chi watching your Jennifer Lopez videos, but I assure you that wet patch is not chi...but you can imagine it to be whatever you want it to be if it makes you feel better about yourself.

Hendrik

05-10-2009, 09:06 PM

故建言有之: 明道若昧, 進道若退,

Hendrik

05-10-2009, 09:30 PM

Keep searching for your chi watching your Jennifer Lopez videos,

but I assure you that wet patch is not chi...

but you can imagine it to be whatever you want it to be if it makes you feel better about yourself.

No need to imagine.

watching this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL7CW7p-25Q

feel much better already. Hahaha

as for Chi, hahaha, do you have enough breath to sing and jump and move like her? do you think doing the SLT/SNT will get there? hahaha

I hate DEAD WCK. hahaha get some life man.

Yoshiyahu

05-11-2009, 07:00 PM

Weak 3rd grade response as usual, basement boy.

Wow arm chair warrior...you got pretty heated there didnt you?

Kansuke

05-11-2009, 07:06 PM

Kid, you are really carrying the wrong jock (or is that 'joke'?)

Yoshiyahu

05-12-2009, 09:22 AM

Kid, you are really carrying the wrong jock (or is that 'joke'?)

Mr. keyboard fighter what do you mean by carrying the wrong jock?

Kansuke

05-12-2009, 09:39 AM

Hmmm...it must be a veeeery small jock. I guess you can't see it.

Yoshiyahu

05-12-2009, 09:44 AM

Hmmm...it must be a veeeery small jock. I guess you can't see it.

Oh your attempting to insult. But I didn't get your first response about carrying a wrong jock...please armchair fighter tell me what you mean. As for my jock well I think you should asked your lady about the size. I have her screaming Wing Chun Kwoon all night...She be speaking in tongues when her mandingo warrior arrives! I am her bed post warrior...ha ha...

Kansuke

05-12-2009, 09:56 AM

Kid, you are about as pathetic as your LARPing role model at this point.

Yoshiyahu

05-12-2009, 01:29 PM

Kid, you are about as pathetic as your LARPing role model at this point.

Speak for yourself buddy!!! haha

Kansuke

05-12-2009, 04:38 PM

You've got his skill at witty reparte as well.

Yoshiyahu

05-12-2009, 04:58 PM

You've got his skill at witty reparte as well.

By the way Mate what in the bloody hell does larping mean?

Kansuke

05-13-2009, 12:40 AM

It's YOU kid. And aren't you from "bloody" St. Louis, "mate"? :rolleyes:

Yoshiyahu

05-13-2009, 06:56 AM

It's YOU kid. And aren't you from "bloody" St. Louis, "mate"? :rolleyes:

Hey Bloke what does Larping mean? Definition of what I am if that is too hard for you to understand?

Anyway I am from Bloody St.louis Matey please share?

Hendrik

02-02-2010, 06:55 PM

what is a kuen kuit for?

Asking this will get lots and lots of different replies due to different understanding.

However the fact is Kuen kuit is for identifying or verifying purpose. It is not for interpretation purpose or intelligent purpose.

So, what is it means by identifying purpose?

To explain this, look at the following example.

Say there is a golden gate bridge in San Francisco if one drive north from highway 280. If one heard the name golden gate bridge prio to visit San Francisco. When s/he sees the golden gate bridge while driving, one knows one is in San Francisco.

Until one is there driving into it and driving pass it one doesnt know what it is.

That is very different then if one is driving in LA and keep speculate via different photos or logical derivation.....etc. without being there to see even once what is the golden gate bridge looks like.

a problem of Kuen Kuit's distortion is one keep speculate on the " golden gate bridge" even one has never seen it and has never been there.

Then, if those who has been in the Golden gate bridge pointing out what these people interplate or speculate is not true. Most likely the reply is " your interpretation is as good as mine" without knowing one missed the point big time.

another problem is when the sifu's doenst know the Kuen kuit but speculate it then the students take those as it is and continous on the "intepretation" or even defensive reasoning to protect the sifu's view which is distorted in the first place.

So, Kuen Kuit is for identifying and verify purpose not up for everyone's interpreation.

What is your view?

t_niehoff

02-03-2010, 04:28 AM

CFT

02-03-2010, 05:34 AM

The format of the kuen kuit (8 character couplets) leaves much to interpretation in my opinion. Even Terence's "interpretation" that they only apply to the infight cannot be validated by just the kuit themselves. You'd have to validate it via application (surprise surprise).

They are just the punchy bulletpoints in a powerpoint presentation. You also need the "notes" that are unseen by the audience.

Wayfaring

02-03-2010, 09:05 AM

So, Kuen Kuit is for identifying and verify purpose not up for everyone's interpreation.

What is your view?

Agree, and specify that it's further purpose is for preservation for the future.

Hendrik

02-03-2010, 11:11 AM

The format of the kuen kuit (8 character couplets) leaves much to interpretation in my opinion.

That is true if the kuen kuit was created by someone who doesnt know the art but just speculation of his own mind and imagination. and the one who like to interpret doesnt know what one is dealing with.

Let's use a popular Kuit in cultivation as an example:

----------------------
TEXT:

淨五根　得五力　唯證乃知難可測
鏡裏看形見不難　水中捉月怎拈得

Translation:

PURIFY THE FIVE EYES; ATTAIN THE FIVE POWER,
SIMPLY ACCOMPLISH THEM AND KNOW WHAT'S HARD TO FATHOM,
SHAPES IN A MIRROR ARE NOT HARD TO SEE,
BUT THE MOON IN THE WATER--HOW CAN ONE PLUCK IT OUT?

COMMENTARY:

PURIFY THE FIVE EYES; ATTAIN THE FIVE POWERS. Having attained the six kinds spiritual functionings, then purify the five eyes: the Buddha-eye, the Dharma-eye, the Wisdom-eyes, the Heavenly-Eye, and the Flesh-Eye; and then to aid them, bring forth the five powers: faith, vigor, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom.

SIMPLY ACCOMPLISH THEM AND WHAT'S KNOW WHAT'S HARD TO FATHOM. To be able to understand these states, one simply needs to accomplish them oneself. They cannot be fathomed by thinking or by making distinctions.

SHAPES IN A MIRROR ARE NOT HARD TO SEE. Every-one can see shapes which are reflected in a mirror; there is nothing difficult in that. The meaning here is that when one sees a Sage, one should aspire to be like him; and when one sees someone who is not a Sage, one should reflect the lilght inward and examine oneself.

BUT THE MOON IN THE WATER--HOW CAN ONE PLUCK IT OUT?
One shouldn't be like a dolt who mistakes the moon in the water for the real moon. Even if he were to give up his life trying to grab it, how could he succeed? Therefore it says, "How can one pluck it our?" This is an analogy for cultivating blindly and smelting recklessly; for taking side doors and externalist paths, for practicing austerities which are not beneficial, and for being attached to characteristics or attached to emptiness. Such are the foolish people who try to pull the moon out of the water; how could they possibly pluck it out?

-----------------

If one accomplished 淨五根 or PURIFY THE FIVE EYES, then THE FIVE POWER will be Attain and all what is said in the kuit will be instantly know.

No interpretation or guessing work. It is solid like rock.

They are just the punchy bulletpoints in a powerpoint presentation. You also need the "notes" that are unseen by the audience.

According to the traditional Chinese culture.

The above view itself is problematic, Thus it said. BUT THE MOON IN THE WATER--HOW CAN ONE PLUCK IT OUT?

Kuit is not for satisfied presentation skill or intensive seminals ( which often doesnt do much: IE, can one finished one's elementry schooling within a week of seminals? ).

Kuit is for identify /verify purpose for those who practice and attain it only.

as it said

Text:

莫將管見謗蒼蒼　未了吾今為君訣

Translation:

DO NOT DETRACT FROM THE AZURE SKY BY LOOKING AT IT THROUGH A REED.
FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE NOT UDERSTOOD, I NOW IMPART THE FACTS.

COMMENTARY:

DO NO DETRACT FROM THE AZURE SKY BY LOOKING AT IT THROUGH A REED. Don't let your vision be a peek at the sky through areed; don't measure the ocean of knowledge with agourd and go on to slander the great Vehocle Dharma-door of the Sudden Teaching.

FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE NOT UNDERSTOOD, I NOW IMPART THE FACTS. If there are still those who have not been able to comprehend this perfect and Sudden, Dharma-door, I now explain for you the essential facts for becoming Enlightened and attaining the Way.

All of these are practical and accomplish-able stuffs, not for interpretation.

Hendrik

02-03-2010, 11:26 AM

Agree, and specify that it's further purpose is for preservation for the future.

There is a problem in so called preservation.

If one doesnt accomplished or attain the state, even with the Kuit it is useless.
How can one preserve for the future what one doesnt know?

Take the very simple WCK kuit, using silence to lead action. Can one enter into silence? if not one cant preserve that part of the art.

and what is silence? some logically explain what is a silence via understanding, some interprate it as Knowing or Awaring.

Well, to be honest learning from those who has been there,
both explaination above are wrong, off by thousands of miles.

So, without solidly attain it, the Kuit is useless. and presevation is just a nice alabi.

It is absolutely deadly and misleading if someone take they can repeat something in Chinese or cantonese means they know the kuit and then they can interplate the kuit anyway they like to from there, after learning some chinese sentences or phrases.

Wayfaring

02-03-2010, 02:11 PM

So, without solidly attain it, the Kuit is useless. and presevation is just a nice alabi.

I get the idea from some that "solidly attaining it" they would like to mean something similar to the buddha attaining enlightenment, or reaching level 72 on World of Warcraft.

My idea of "solidly attaining it" means you can fight it.

Lee Chiang Po

02-03-2010, 02:55 PM

EternalSpring

02-03-2010, 04:46 PM

Most of this stuff is so obscure and meaningless that it makes little to no sense at all. Sort of like 2 plus 2 equal chair. If a person wants to sound deep and learned he can find better ways. If anything requires interpretation it must not be as direct and to the point, and interpretation is super wide open. Why waste your time? I am serious. Why waste your time?

Yea but Kuen Kit (at least what I've learned from Sifu) is not for the people who cant understand. From what I've seen, the family Kuen Kits are handed down to those who have been trained to a very high level, not to people who are beginners or intermediates.

It's kind of like trying to learn kung fu from watching videos, you may get a superficial definitions, but its never the same and misses huge concepts, even though you still are seeing the forms. The Kuen Kit value imho seems to vary with the level of the reader. Not only that, but Sifu also told me that the meaning also changes with translation, saying that the short direct and poetic structure of many lines also bears great meaning. What may seem nonsensical to one person may not seem the same to another (and im not implying that one of those people is crazy lol)

Hendrik

02-03-2010, 10:00 PM

I get the idea from some that "solidly attaining it" they would like to mean something similar to the buddha attaining enlightenment, or reaching level 72 on World of Warcraft.

My idea of "solidly attaining it" means you can fight it.

Yes, indeed.

t_niehoff

02-04-2010, 04:53 AM

Yes, indeed.

Not in theory or in your imagination, but in reality.

Unfortunately, there is no evidence to support your "enlightenment" theory of fighting since you can't point to a single proven fighter of this "attainment". Not only that, but it flies in the face of everything we do know -- based on evidence -- about the development of psyscho-motor skill.

So what we are left with is two ways of training to develop fighitng skill: Method 1, promoted by Hendrik (the nonfighter), that hasn't produced a single noteworthy result that can be verified, and Method 2, promoted by all proven, highly skilled fighters and fight trainers. Hmmm. Tough call, method 1 or method 2 -- which should I choose?

LoneTiger108

02-04-2010, 12:53 PM

what is a kuen kuit for?

Asking this will get lots and lots of different replies due to different understanding...

... So, Kuen Kuit is for identifying and verify purpose not up for everyone's interpreation.

What is your view?

I agree. The kuit you refer to and translate (your interpretation) may well act as a great indicator for you on your journey of cultivation.

My view?

Well, if I was to categorize the style of writing you present I would think it originates from a Buddhist source, not a Martial Art source. I would even question it's place in Wing Chun and how it could benefit a practitioner?

Hendrik

02-11-2010, 07:27 PM

I agree. The kuit you refer to and translate (your interpretation) may well act as a great indicator for you on your journey of cultivation.

My view?

Well, if I was to categorize the style of writing you present I would think it originates from a Buddhist source, not a Martial Art source. I would even question it's place in Wing Chun and how it could benefit a practitioner?

that Wing Chun you refer to is a limitation that trap oneself and it produces never ending misery. The more you keep trying to satisfy yourself of learning more sets and more technics.... the more deep you get into the misery. It is never ending.

for example on some one , once upon a time he went to learn WCK with different people, then he was into quoting this kuen kuit that kuen kuit, then he was going into this structure that structure, then he went into BJJ......ect. well, god knows what will come after the BJJ... it is a non stop "hunger" living where a small satisfaction always follows with a bigger misery.

Those are a limitation trap where always one got disapprove of oneself, then go learn something to get some approval and satisfaction, then got disapproval again.... never ending. It is a dead trap of suffering. this is the reincarnation. never ending wheel of suffering.

As the training I qoute above is a different path, it gets one into silence or self approval or quite the mind via go within instead of chasing the "hands" around going "outward". Then, once one enter the silence state, one becomes intuitive ( or by passed the mind which chasing rainbow all the time ;as the above case of keep running to learn something to have some approval and then more misery and repeat again and no end.)

That is what it is when it said " using the silence to lead the action" . go within .

See, it is no longer suffering but out flow of action. when one need to grap, one grap, when one needs to bite one bite. no boundary.

Again, I am not talking about sit there and fantasy. I am talking major action but the action is not a bound and misery driven or fight/flied driven. but a flow which is boundless. That state exist. all good musician have it, all good martial artists disregards of style have it.

Wing Chun is just a vehicle like a car. one is in serious trouble and misery when one mistaken the car as oneself. and trap within it. that darn thing is just to help one to move around. Same with BJJ same with karate. but most is so deluded that thinking the car they drive is themselve. and totally forget about themselve.

again, I dont say one doesnt train, I say one train heavily.

saying this, some one will come and challenge me saying " oh, can any one doing your wing chun beat such and such style...., can they do fighting....etc?" that is just analogy to comparing this car and that car. The issue they missed is " do you even know who the hell are you? stop thinking the car is you." if one knows who the hell one is in the silence, one can pick up any car and doing better then before when he is clueless on who he is."

one cant end suffering, get mastery one something, without going within.

But that going withing is not some fantasy but lots and lots of hard works.

Thus, it says

TEXT:

淨五根　得五力　唯證乃知難可測
鏡裏看形見不難　水中捉月怎拈得

Translation:

PURIFY THE FIVE EYES; ATTAIN THE FIVE POWER,
SIMPLY ACCOMPLISH THEM AND KNOW WHAT'S HARD TO FATHOM,
SHAPES IN A MIRROR ARE NOT HARD TO SEE,
BUT THE MOON IN THE WATER--HOW CAN ONE PLUCK IT OUT?

Get there,
see for yourself before argue with me.

Be it fighting, be it composing music, be it design the best computer chips..... the same.

Sure some could not understand what I am posting here. because it is not obvious. It takes decades to have a glimpse out side the trap mind. without that one will not be the master but a life time student which is keep in that misery of learning from here and there, this sifu that sifu..... never ending. But again, this is not self proclamation. it is a state one needs a direction to get into and lots of hard works to attain. That is the mastery. it is boundless and beyond shape. that is the internal art of TCM.

t_niehoff

02-12-2010, 05:22 AM

The mind trap is in deluding yourself by not critically thinking and not drawing your conclusions from sound evidence -- then you get stuck in an intellectual black hole that you can't get out of.

Wayfaring

02-12-2010, 09:18 AM

that Wing Chun you refer to is a limitation that trap oneself and it produces never ending misery. The more you keep trying to satisfy yourself of learning more sets and more technics.... the more deep you get into the misery. It is never ending.

for example on some one , once upon a time he went to learn WCK with different people, then he was into quoting this kuen kuit that kuen kuit, then he was going into this structure that structure, then he went into BJJ......ect. well, god knows what will come after the BJJ... it is a non stop "hunger" living where a small satisfaction always follows with a bigger misery.

Those are a limitation trap where always one got disapprove of oneself, then go learn something to get some approval and satisfaction, then got disapproval again.... never ending. It is a dead trap of suffering. this is the reincarnation. never ending wheel of suffering.

The mind trap in the above is in assuming motives of other people. If one reads in low-level motives for action into other people, what does that say about one's self? Where does the non stop hunger and approval seeking really live?

Hendrik

02-12-2010, 11:46 AM

isnt it most of these martial art stuffs are a never ending approval seeking?

from one sifu jump or proceed to another one.
from one set to more set and more technics.....
from one style jump or proceed to another one.

while one never really master anything and live is aging.
One keep preparing more and more but never really use it. and even when one is using it, it is a totally different things.

what a misery.

Hendrik

02-12-2010, 11:51 AM

The mind trap is in deluding yourself by not critically thinking and not drawing your conclusions from sound evidence -- then you get stuck in an intellectual black hole that you can't get out of.

your theory is sound but those so called critical thinking doesnt even work in a movie.

Yes, doesnt work in a movie.

Go see an action or Xrate or romance movie, see how your body and an emotion are totally screw up and influence after 15 minutes.

can that critical mind even differentiate between movie or real life when your anger or romance or sexual desire got stir up in or out of a movie? or the body and emotion just react and the mind is not be able to know which is which but react?

go experience for yourself, and see for yourself, how trust worty is your mind and your critical mind which is another limitation and trap.

Isnt that tell one how reliable is this so called mind who is suppose to be your friend and that critical mind who is suppose to be your guru?

if one have no way of get beyond the mind, forget about it. the mind itself is a black hole disregards of intellectual or critical or what ever. Mind is your worse enermy for most human beings.

Thus, the first stanza of Yik Kam's SLT training said " collect your intention, union with your spirit (enter into silence/quiet your mind) in that equal shoulder stance." mind is simple not reliable and non real time.

dirtyrat

02-12-2010, 12:41 PM

Hendrik

02-12-2010, 01:05 PM

Many of us pride ourselves on our education & intellect.

I think what Hendrik is trying to say that there is a wall that human intellect cannot pass. That we need to know the difference between spiritual awareness and human thought.

To be real serious and honest, in my understanding, it is not spiritual at all because spiritual and materialistic are both non dual.

The ancient knows it and trying to tell us with the kuen kuit to not get trap.

but we got trap in the education and intellect programing which is sound in the mind's logical derivative but not reflect the real deal. and we totally dont know about it. the "program is keep running in the back ground."

My example on the movie is an experiment I encourage lots of so called meditator....spiritual cultivator to do.

if the mind cant differentiate between a sexual desire cause by watching a movie or a real human being in the real life (and go a head endose the emotion and body re-action) and we trust it we are in big trouble.

So, how trust worty is that mind? it is so easy to get influence and lost its reference point. what we said good today we can say bad tomorrow because that mind is just a flip flop.

So what is this got to do with martial art? well, how do you rely on such a flip flop mind in fighting? thus we all know it got to get intuitive and by passed the mind otherwise we dont know what we are doing. The mind can tell you one minute you have all the control and the next second it can tell you it is totally open.

One second WCK is the best the next second got to be BJJ way. that is silly but once the mind got program (believe it in) one is doom.

So, knock out the program otherwise one wont see clear. if you believe all fight got to go down to ground so be it. your mind has been program and your body will follow the command .

your program over write your mind or critical mind or your intellecture mind. see for yourself.
Even the TV advertisement over right your critical mind. so that is how much control you really have ---- Yes, you seem like having your control but it is your programer's (movie, advertisement.....ect) way.

So, SLT training, first step, deprograming your CPU.

The value of SLT is tremendous if one learn about the deprograming so that we can use it everyday for our happiness in living. No one said one give up fighting, but that deprograming help one lives a better life every instant from the second one learn SLT until the end of one's life. isnt that a great treasure to have in the real life?

The mind is not a problem at all. and there is no wall between spiritual and human thought.
The trouble we all get ourselve into is it already become a habit or subsconcious that we hold on to whatever thought comes to our mind ; and take that as "ourself" and that thought is the ultimate, forgeting thoughts are just thoughts if we dont like it we can drop it. It is our worker instead of our boss.

it is like the thought of I am a WCner or my way is the WCway. These program go automatic after a while, execute that program called "WCner or WC way" any time it got triggle, forgoting those are just thoughts we put into our mind. and we become its slave. so we argue the heck out of everything because it is your program which is argue with my program while we both become slave of these programs.

so until one realized those are programs we put into our mind and we know how we can delete it. we are stuck. there is where the misery if from.

Nothing mysterious or advance or secret or spiritual at all. it is all about deleting all the programs and knowing one has alternative.

Siu Lin Tau is suppose to train this type of stuffs but then we lost it and thinking just do the set to program the muscle to certain memory.....etc which is walking an opposite direction.

Just watch your action and thoughts for 5 mins, see for yourself how these program run you automatically.

Hendrik

02-12-2010, 01:24 PM

look at the fight scene.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV6eEqfsVWQ

This is a programing.

in reality does it work at all? I know it looks good and looks " wing chun" for some. but is it "wing Chun " at all? if you use your mind you are trap.

This is just a movie!

a made up which never happen in real life fighting.

can your mind differentiate and discrimnate or trying to mimic it? you follow your mind you trap!

anerlich

02-12-2010, 05:32 PM

that Wing Chun you refer to is a limitation that trap oneself and it produces never ending misery.

The misery only began when Wing Chun led me to this forum.

t_niehoff

02-12-2010, 06:06 PM

The misery only began when Wing Chun led me to this forum.

“My personal trials have also taught me the value of unmerited suffering. As my sufferings mounted I soon realized that there were two ways that I could respond to my situation: either to react with bitterness or seek to transform the suffering into a creative force."

Martin Luther King

Hardwork108

02-12-2010, 09:13 PM

The misery only began when Wing Chun led me to this forum.
Did the truth bring you misery?

Hendrik

02-12-2010, 09:38 PM

佛言。慎勿信汝意。汝意不可信。慎勿與色會。色會即禍生。得阿羅漢已。乃可信汝意。

28. The Buddha said: "Be careful not to depend on your own intelligence--
it is not to be trusted. Take care not to come in contact with physical
attractions-- such contacts result in calamities. Only when you have
reached the stage of Arhan can you depend on your own intelligence."

http://www4.bayarea.net/~mtlee/42.txt

損法財　滅功德　莫不由斯心意識
是以禪門了卻心　頓入無生知見力

DHARMA WEALTH IS LOST, AND MERIT AND VIRTUE DESTROYED,
DUE TO NOTHING ELSE THAN THE CONSCIOUS MIND,
THROUGH THE DOOR OF DHYANA THE MIND IS ENDED,
AND ONE SUDDENLY ENTERS THE POWERFUL, UNPRODUCED
KNOWLEDGE AND INSIGHT.

As it said, "your best mind get you here." ask those who have screw things up and see if that is true? their best mind get them there.

t_niehoff

02-13-2010, 05:34 AM

"If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha. If you meet a Patriarch, kill the Patriarch."

Lin Chi

Vajramusti

02-13-2010, 06:24 AM

The misery only began when Wing Chun led me to this forum.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quite understandable as a stand alone truth!

joy chaudhuri

Matrix

02-13-2010, 08:42 AM

The misery only began when Wing Chun led me to this forum.Andrew, If I may ask a favour... You always cut out the name of the person from your quotes. It's helpful to know who you are responding to. Thanks,
Bill

LoneTiger108

02-13-2010, 09:24 AM

that Wing Chun you refer to is a limitation that trap oneself and it produces never ending misery. The more you keep trying to satisfy yourself of learning more sets and more technics.... the more deep you get into the misery. It is never ending.

I'm afraid (again) Hendrik that what you're referring to here is not the way I learned Wing Chun. And it isn't the way I personally approach my training either.

... it is a state one needs a direction to get into and lots of hard works to attain. That is the mastery. it is boundless and beyond shape. that is the internal art of TCM.

Agreed.

28. The Buddha said: "Be careful not to depend on your own intelligence--
it is not to be trusted. Take care not to come in contact with physical
attractions-- such contacts result in calamities. Only when you have
reached the stage of Arhan can you depend on your own intelligence."

This is exactly what I was referring to!

Hendrik, I am not here to be converted to Buddhism, as I'm not a religious person really. Much respect to those that are, but it's just not for me and I believe it is not a requirement for Wing Chun practitioners to follow Buddhism or any other religion in order to be more fulfilled.

That's your choice, and to even suggest that without that knowledge we are all somehow doomed to misery and incompetence is, by all means, very laughable! :D

Hendrik

02-13-2010, 01:33 PM

"If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha. If you meet a Patriarch, kill the Patriarch."

Lin Chi

can you drop your thoughts stream ?

Hendrik

02-13-2010, 01:39 PM

Hendrik, I am not here to be converted to Buddhism, as I'm not a religious person really. Much respect to those that are, but it's just not for me and I believe it is not a requirement for Wing Chun practitioners to follow Buddhism or any other religion in order to be more fulfilled.

You certainly doesnt read my posts details enough.

who cares about religion?

do one know how to and
can one drop one's thoughts stream at will at any time any place and enter into silence?

It is a technology. That is the Kung fu of gliding across every situation with ease.

The one cant do it cant even breath proper at any situation,
forget about the tan sau...

wtxs

02-15-2010, 11:39 AM

The misery only began when Wing Chun led me to this forum.

Misery loves company, how about split an 12 pack - or an suit case, at least you can forget that misery for awhile. :p

sandman

02-19-2010, 02:03 PM

Forgive me if I'm confused about your point, but this is no Kuen Kuit I know, let alone a Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit. It is, however a Buddhist Sutra from the Song of Enlightment.

I prefer this common translation from http://www.caodongzazen.com/(english)SongOfENLIGHTENMENT(english).htm:
To purify the five types of vision and pain the five powers,
One must personally realize that which is beyond conception.
It is easy to recognize images in a mirror,
But who can grasp the Moon from the Water?

Also, If you are going to use someone else's work, you really should cite the source, otherwise it could be construed as plagiarism.
http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/VenHu/Song%20of%20Enlightenment.htm

TEXT:

淨五根　得五力　唯證乃知難可測
鏡裏看形見不難　水中捉月怎拈得

Translation:

PURIFY THE FIVE EYES; ATTAIN THE FIVE POWER,
SIMPLY ACCOMPLISH THEM AND KNOW WHAT'S HARD TO FATHOM,
SHAPES IN A MIRROR ARE NOT HARD TO SEE,
BUT THE MOON IN THE WATER--HOW CAN ONE PLUCK IT OUT?

COMMENTARY:

PURIFY THE FIVE EYES; ATTAIN THE FIVE POWERS. Having attained the six kinds spiritual functionings, then purify the five eyes: the Buddha-eye, the Dharma-eye, the Wisdom-eyes, the Heavenly-Eye, and the Flesh-Eye; and then to aid them, bring forth the five powers: faith, vigor, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom.

SIMPLY ACCOMPLISH THEM AND WHAT'S KNOW WHAT'S HARD TO FATHOM. To be able to understand these states, one simply needs to accomplish them oneself. They cannot be fathomed by thinking or by making distinctions.

SHAPES IN A MIRROR ARE NOT HARD TO SEE. Every-one can see shapes which are reflected in a mirror; there is nothing difficult in that. The meaning here is that when one sees a Sage, one should aspire to be like him; and when one sees someone who is not a Sage, one should reflect the lilght inward and examine oneself.

BUT THE MOON IN THE WATER--HOW CAN ONE PLUCK IT OUT?
One shouldn't be like a dolt who mistakes the moon in the water for the real moon. Even if he were to give up his life trying to grab it, how could he succeed? Therefore it says, "How can one pluck it our?" This is an analogy for cultivating blindly and smelting recklessly; for taking side doors and externalist paths, for practicing austerities which are not beneficial, and for being attached to characteristics or attached to emptiness. Such are the foolish people who try to pull the moon out of the water; how could they possibly pluck it out?

punchdrunk

02-19-2010, 03:04 PM

kuen kuit are passed along in some lineages of Wing Chun, they are advice and warnings or cautions, sometimes strategies. Since they are advice from predecessors they vary through different lineages, possibly with some dropping almost all of them. "Retain what's coming in; Send off what's retreating; Rush in upon loss of contact" and the many translations thereof, is considered kuen kuit.
As for hendrik not citing his sources, hey at least he translated it this time!

Hendrik

02-19-2010, 05:50 PM

a song is better then 1000 posts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fw18QYPQPU&feature=related

Hendrik

02-19-2010, 06:02 PM

Forgive me if I'm confused about your point, but this is no Kuen Kuit I know, let alone a Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit. It is, however a Buddhist Sutra from the Song of Enlightment.

You missed my point. and song of enlightment is not a sutra but a song/ a Kuit.

I prefer this common translation from http://www.caodongzazen.com/(english)SongOfENLIGHTENMENT(english).htm:
To purify the five types of vision and pain the five powers,
One must personally realize that which is beyond conception.
It is easy to recognize images in a mirror,
But who can grasp the Moon from the Water?

prefer and translation are two misleading terms.
I too have attained the same attainment is what needed.

Also, If you are going to use someone else's work, you really should cite the source, otherwise it could be construed as plagiarism.
http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/VenHu/Song%20of%20Enlightenment.htm

Speak about you speak about me what is the different?

I am trying to get people out of their spinning mind with any tool.

I certainly can said, that is what I learn from my sifu. and then it starts again on name droping and.....etc ego arguements......

JPinAZ

02-19-2010, 06:13 PM

typical, Hendrik still mixing stuff from all different sources and trying to call it WC :rolleyes:

Hendrik

02-19-2010, 06:43 PM

typical, Hendrik still mixing stuff from all different sources and trying to call it WC :rolleyes:

Here goes again. programing robotic mind as usual. hahaha

instead of thanking me going through everything to communicate what is the "SILENCE" as in the "Using Silence to lead the Action" means.

and also how to attain it.

Hendrik

02-19-2010, 10:07 PM

OK, you all want to see some part of the real thing from the Red Boat 1850?

it is 2010, time to release some. Let's speak with solid facts.

Here are some:

This is from my lineage and my transmission. Hope that this direct release dont attract some one's EGO attack ; or shock some people.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

紅船班中正旦易金祖師傳

Transmitted by Grand master Yik Kam of Red boat opera.

小練頭歌訣

Siu Lien Tau Kor Kuit

Comment: The practicing direction note of SLT.

斯是上乘法,通關開竅有奇功.

This is advance technics. It wonderfully Open up the key nodes/gates and penetrate the path ways.

Commentary: This SLT is an advance set which serve the purpose of open up the key nodes/gates and penetrate the path ways

左手鞭出橫力勁,

Left hand whip out the horizontal Jin/power.

Commentary:

This is the first training movement of SLT after settling the shen, Qi, and body in the YJKYM...

such as describing as the following

(集意会神平肩襠双手前起半(分)陰阳左脚跘出有善惡…. 右跟曲勁口口口…

Collect the Yee - Union with the Shen - Equal shoulder stance
Both hands, while rising forward, break into duality (Yin Yang)
Both hands raise upward seperate into the Yin and Yang phases.
Left leg trip out consists of aiding or cancellation.
Right heel, coiling ging, reversed stores
Fuse the pre/post breath within the Dantien,
Du medirian, descending….. )

The arm whip out section by section or join by join softly and lightly similar to snake to cultivate the delivery of horizontal power.

Why horizontal power? In order to have a complete basic power generation; There are two type of fundamental power which are needed, these two basic elements are the vertical power and the horizontal power. From the combination of the two basic elements the six directional force vectors are composed.

In general, SLT today has evolve to the point of eliminate this section but go directly to the vertical power.

We know after 1850, the horizontal power section got evolve.

In Emei 12 Zhuang, this whip out movement is called Snake slide pupa move. The movement is described as how snake slide and pupa move.

神寄指爪袖底旁,

Pay attention to the finger tip and the hand on the side of the sleeve.

Commentary:

Pay attention to the finger tip means using the Shen to lead the Qi and power to the finger tips.

Pay attention to hand on the side of the sleeve indicate there is a half Yin and Yang medirians Jin hidden in the sleeve side of the hand which is also needed to be cultivated by paying attention instead of being fuzzy and sloppy.
This type of jin/power is needed while rotating and spiralling.....etc.

旋迥自然順脈气.

Spiraling and retrograding naturally accord to the Qi medirians.

Commentary:

While whipping, spiraling, rotating, the physical movements must naturally follow the direction flow of the three Yin and Three Yang medirians.

The above given instruction on how using the Shen/Attention leads lead the Qi. using the natural flow of the medirians to transport the physical movements.
and how the physical movement support other elements above to cultivate the jin /power.

MY Note:

意動神到指爪, 气順手三陰三陽脈走.

As the Will move attention/Shen arive to finger tips. Qi flows via follow the hand's three Yin and three Yang medirians.

是峨嵋＋二庄的獨門蛇行蛹動練法. 所以訣說, 是真實話.

This is the Emei 12 Zhuang's unique Snake slide pupa cultivation technic.
Thus, the Kuit is telling the truth when it said It wonderfully Open up the key nodes/gates and penetrate the path ways.

--------------------------------------------------

Ok, there is nothing misterious. there is no secret, however, there are plenty of cultivation methodology either one knows or one knows not. it is all about training methods to attain the purpose of the training. does one train accord to the clear instruction as above?

How much of these type of WCK teaching has gone to grave with the ancestors of the past? lots.

not to mention, there are prerequisite one needs to know such as in this case, how to use the attention, the flow path of the qi medirians......etc.

It is not the spinning mind deal absolutely not. and without get into silence one doesnt manage the attention to lead the Qi well. because the mind is disturbing the heck out of everything and cause the training to be noisy and absent of awareness.

Does one enter into silence or does one let the program one keep drilling to take over. Those are different things.

enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwbtbfAnI80

Vajramusti

02-20-2010, 05:49 AM

Thanks for sharing your tradition.

A question- what is "pupa" (in snake slides)?

I don't know that word.

Regards, Joy

Vajramusti

02-20-2010, 07:08 AM

Pupa- I got the meaning of the term.

joy chaudhuri

Vajramusti

02-20-2010, 07:36 AM

Thanks Hendrik.

Good teaching in the Ip Man tradition also fuses the exrernal and internal elements of the slt. IMO.

Of course, a great art takes time for understanding even with very good instruction.

joy chaudhuri

chusauli

02-20-2010, 10:07 AM

The Yik Kam SLT Kuen Kuit are a real treasure and preservation of early WCK.

It is a real heirloom of an era past.

Nothing like it has been revealed in WCK's real history.

Hendrik

02-20-2010, 01:03 PM

Robert,

As you know since we are working together on these. It takes lots and lots prerequisite knowledge from Buddhism, Daoism, TCM, TCMA IMA basic to decode it.

Similar to a blink of eyes but many decades has passed....

I am sitting here after these many decades since 1977 the year I got the Kuen kuit and listern to the song...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9nIUqrZ5kY&NR=1

well there is no regret.

LoneTiger108

02-20-2010, 01:25 PM

Some interesting research here Hendrik.

Thanks for sharing this treasure of Yik Kams and don't lose faith in this type of knowledge as I think there's still so much more to be shared.

Older texts and maxims may not have all been lost ;)

LoneTiger108

02-20-2010, 01:31 PM

It is a real heirloom of an era past.

Nothing like it has been revealed in WCK's real history.

I wouldn't be so sure Robert. Lee Shing passed a great deal to my Sifu including maxims like these. This was the main reason I studied with him.

Hendrik

02-20-2010, 03:14 PM

I wouldn't be so sure Robert. Lee Shing passed a great deal to my Sifu including maxims like these. This was the main reason I studied with him.

why dont you share some with us?

mikelee

02-20-2010, 09:12 PM

Thanks for the sharing, here's another Red Boat Kuen Kuit. abstracted from Wingchunpedia:

The Original Red Boat Song of Wing Chun Kuen

The techniques of Wing Chun Kuen are unique;
The methods are impenetrable, changing them should be avoided!
Correct teaching, correct practice and the correct mindset are essential.
You must train your heart to be courageous.

Relaxing and smiling whilst defeating the opponent makes for great tales;
Seeking by the questioning hand to judge the foe’s situation.
It is like watching flowers when he is further away;
Striking when he is near.

Let him fly like a dragon and hop like a tiger, while I am at ease and entertained;
The hands strike like a falling star!
The kick is formless like a flying arrow!
Above, remain on the centerline;

Below, close the groin,
Ensuring the body is inaccessible.
The key is sticking to the bridge of the enemy!
Exalted awareness controls his advance;

The skill is to borrow force and strike forcefully.
Lead him into emptiness;
To strike first has its reasons;
In the encounter is embedded the mystery!

Do not stop at a single strike,
Pressuring the opponent continuously is essential.
Go on top of the incoming bridge,
Neutralize the incoming elbow with an elbow.

Close in to long range strikes
Move the stance forward to an incoming stance.
Keeping the incoming hand and send forward the outgoing hand,
A loose hand must be followed with a forward thrust.

Take the incoming straight thrust with a curve,
Encounter the cross hand with a straight thrust forward.
Forwarding, obstruction, blocking and twisting
Topping, stopping, sinking, thrusting,

Sticking, touching, ironing, swinging,
Swallowing and spitting contain stealing and slipping.
Each point in the theory must be very clear.
Each technique must be clear.

The difference of a line is like heaven and earth.
The slightest bit of slackness will bring defeat.
Commit all these to memory!
One day retrieve the mystery within.

Honour your teacher and respect the art, year after year,
Honestly and determination will generate greatness!
Clever methods will generate more clever methods;
Unusual training exercises will generate more unusual training exercises;

Wind and thunder generated within an inch -
How can you not be humbled?
The true words of the originator:
The true skill of Wing Chun is difficult to find,

There are many levels.
The true art will be found in the most unusual circumstances;
You must be intelligent and diligent over the years,
The unworthy practitioner will always be a lonesome boat in a big ocean.

The art protects the art!

Saturday, September 09, 2006 Copyright 2002–2006 Yun Hoi Wing Chun Kuen

-木叶-

02-21-2010, 02:41 AM

Most of this stuff is so obscure and meaningless that it makes little to no sense at all.

I assume you are referring to the kuit, so i have to disagree that it is obscure
and meaningless.

Some excerpts:

怕打终打
贪打防空
以攻为守
以守为攻

Afraid to strike, and you will be striked
Greedy to attack, and your defence will be neglected
Attack is defense
and defense can be offense

力从地起
发力在腰
出招在膊
发人者力
打人者劲

Energy derives from the ground
And drives from the waist
and directs from the elbow
Use others energy
to hit them with their own force

To quote CFT, these are profound little "bullet-points", like small reading cards we carry, but their meaning lies in the stacks of notes we joted down before.

t_niehoff

02-21-2010, 05:23 AM

Thanks for the sharing, here's another Red Boat Kuen Kuit. abstracted from Wingchunpedia:

Wingchunpedia is just a hodge-podge of misinformation. It is best ignored.

Hendrik

02-21-2010, 08:04 PM

I got the transmission of the Kuen kuit the same year this song is popular.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b07-yKnKRMQ&feature=related

well, the kuen kuit changes my life totally. It is like a journey from one place lead to other, one thing lead to other..

and now, I just wishes every one to be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30_vA5j0KWo&feature=related

What is really usefull in one's life?

learn how to let go the mind and how to love others, with the ability of letting go one can always deprogram oneself for a new fresh begining, with enough love all things will solve ;

certainly not the kuen kuit not the fighting, for human are fragile and weak and not even be able to manage oneself eventhough every one like to act tough and strong and macho.

I tell you this because I have screw up more then most in my long 40 years MA searching journey which I was luckily funded without I have to worry a thing about making a living and from my experience.

learn letting go and love, that is the only thing will last and make your happy. That is the best offense instead of WCK.

anerlich

02-21-2010, 09:31 PM

I got the transmission of the Kuen kuit the same year this song is popular.

That song was never popular.

Vajramusti

02-22-2010, 08:50 AM

I appreciated your sharing the kuen kit from your lineage.I think that I understood them.

True- that there is a lot of macho in net talk related to martial arts.

Self defense is not always fighting but still the reality is that this is a difficult world and the self has to be protected in different and varied contexts.

BTW---the two songs are ok but neither Celine Dion nor Debbie Boon are my favorites- Judy Garland still edges Dion IMO and Whitney Houston edges Boon in those two songs.

Regards,

joy chaudhuri

Hendrik

02-22-2010, 11:28 AM

Self defense is not always fighting but still the reality is that this is a difficult world and the self has to be protected in different and varied contexts.

i

Joy,

IMHO,
I come to a conclusion based on my experience that to be able to let go the feeling, the thoughts, the emotion is the first line of defense before anything.

That is what I call the self-defense toward one ownself. Without that we are our worse enemy.

Thus, alots of effort is being put into understanding the training of "using silence to lead action" from different angles and as you know I go as far as using biofeedback machine to track the issue....

t_niehoff

02-22-2010, 11:35 AM

Thus, alots of effort is being put into understanding the training of "using silence to lead action" from different angles and as you know I go as far as using biofeedback machine to track the issue....

Unfortunately, that is going far in the wrong direction. You will only ever understand the kuit by and through application (fighting). Since you won't go that far, you never will understand.

wtxs

02-22-2010, 11:43 AM

Self defense is not always fighting but still the reality is that this is a difficult world and the self has to be protected in different and varied contexts.joy chaudhuri

Your statement paints an sad but true reality, evident with all the conflicts around the world. Even the peace movement of the 60's, hippies with head full idealistic views of that peace, love and harmony will make the world an better place miss the mark.

Sure miss those days, think I'm gonna pull out some dusty Young Bloods, Troggs, etc. for a spin...and reflect.

Hendrik

02-22-2010, 02:59 PM

Unfortunately, that is going far in the wrong direction. You will only ever understand the kuit by and through application (fighting). Since you won't go that far, you never will understand.

According to your best friend the "mind" or "critical thinking", you are absolutely right.

Someday, hope you will see how dangerous is this type of mind leading one into a short circuit loop of trap.

Seriously, you have not met the silence I am qouting.

t_niehoff

02-23-2010, 01:22 PM

Hendrik

02-23-2010, 02:57 PM

Here you go: http://scifiwire.com/2009/06/no-light-sabers-yet-but-t.php

As always, you make to many assumption based on your believe,

where is your critical thinking when it comes to analyze your own mind pattern?

hahaha

Hardwork108

02-23-2010, 03:28 PM

As always, you make to many assumption based on your believe,

where is your critical thinking when it comes to analyze your own mind pattern?

hahaha

IMHO, self analysis is very difficult for some people who only see the external side of the world of the TCMAs.

Hendrik

02-23-2010, 09:36 PM

IMHO, self analisize is very difficult for some people who only see the external side of the world of the TCMAs.

The different between an animal and a human is that human has the capability of self analysis.

One power of the Silence is the ability of self diagnosis /analysis and dropping thoughts at will. Thus, it says Using silence to lead action instead of one walks into one's own death trap. It has much much better control in that state compare with mind state.

Silence is nothing misterious at all. it is also call beingness, it can be meet when one goes beyond one's mind . From Think state to know state and then go beyond into the Be state. mind cannot analyze it because Silence is beyond mind or Silence give birth to mind. when one can go there one can drop one's thoughts as one likes it. but mind will not be able to get to silence no matter what the mind think.

Be is Being and Silence, while 99% of the people mistaken Know state as Being; that is a mistake. One must reach the Just Be state to experience, the Know state is still a realm of mind.

Everyone can go to the Be state, the problem is the mind block it out and stuck. In fact, the second one wake up from the sleep before the mind's programs kick in one is in that state. after the mind kick in, then it is " I am male, 45, US citizen, Father.......ect all the un ended limit loaded in....."

SLT teaches one needs to go beyond that mind, there one doesnt limit by Tan or Bong or this way or that way. Thus, The come accept, goes let it gone... is a description of silence or being state. It is not about mind at all, it is not something to think or some philosophy. it is living spontaneous boundless with ease and flow.

Those who dont know the silence are spending life en slave by the mind and chansing rainbow. keep thinking rainbow is real but never touch it. it is a never ending struggle or hunger for control.

If that never ending struggle is the martial art one chasing after, that is a biggest misery. might as well, go do something instead of training martial art.

Hardwork108

02-23-2010, 09:38 PM

The different between an animal and a human is that human has the capability of self analysis.

One power of the Silence is the ability of self diagnosis /analysis and dropping thoughts at will.
I agree totally. I am hoping to get to that one day.

Hendrik

02-23-2010, 10:04 PM

I agree totally. I am hoping to get to that one day.

dont hope, that is your mind fooling you sell you the chasing rainbow dream.

There is no such thing as "one day"
Just "be" in this instant,
you just need to dont use your thinking mechanism, do nothing; and be ; and you are there.

An easy way to do this is, Just put yourself into the state of waiting, and you can have a glimpse of Silence;

Do this, get yourself into the following :

Say, some one is saying something to you and she stops before finished the full sentence. So you wait there, wait for her to continuous and finished her sentence.

There when you wait, your mind doesnt Think and the beingness is fully activate. the "be" surface. that is silence.

some who is sharp and young can have a glimpse of silence as the above, however to be able to get in at will there is lots of training needed. Some are more dull and cant get that glimpse.

Every one has it, however,
We are so poluted these days in this new age of too much information, sensation programming, and non stop mind spinning.

Thus, we missed the silence, we seldom listen to what it is, we seldom see what it is; instead of thinking what our mind present us is what it is.

Advance martial art is about breaking boundary, one can never repeat the same tan sau twice, one can never perform the same take down twice, every small details count, from the small details one can break the trap or see the flaws, and to be able to have the ability of crystal clear in small details, one needs to be able to get into silence.

Scott R. Brown

02-24-2010, 04:47 AM

isnt it most of these martial art stuffs are a never ending approval seeking?

Isn’t this just your own mind seeing according to its own preconceived notions? Isn’t it, in fact, you who is bound by the dream of your own fantasies? You seem to be seeing in others their need for “never ending approval”, but the fact you see this is a projection of your own "incomplete seeing" onto others. Perhaps it is wiser to address your own blindness before preoccupying yourself with your “imagined” blindness of others!

from one sifu jump or proceed to another one.
from one set to more set and more technics.....
from one style jump or proceed to another one.

Why does it matter if one jumps from one sifu to another? If it is their path, it is their path, if it isn’t your path, then it isn’t your path! Another’s path need not be your path, and your path need not be another’s! If they are happy following their own path, why are you insisting anyone follow your path? Follow your own path, let others follow theirs!

while one never really master anything and live is aging.
One keep preparing more and more but never really use it. and even when one is using it, it is a totally different things.

Again, locked within your own dream fantasy? Why is it necessary to “really master anything”? Isn’t this just “a fantasy of mastery”? Why is it necessary to “use it”? Isn’t this fantasy of needing to "use it" just another dream one becomes attached too?

One uses what they use, if it is different, it is different! Why the apparent attachment to the need for it to be not different than your difference?

what a misery.

Yet once again, is this not your own "dream fantasy" being projected upon others? The fact you seem to interpret the experience of others as “misery” for them is a reflection of your own “dream fantasy”!

If you see the glass as half empty, that is your “dream fantasy” if others see the glass as half full, that is their “dream fantasy”. Why the apparent need to have others see the glass the same way you do? Which is worse, attachment to ones “dream fantasy” or the insistence that others should have the same “dream fantasy” as you?

I too have attained the same attainment is what needed.

Since there is nothing to attain, why the concern with attainment? Attainment is not needed…..nothing is needed. “Need” and "attainment" is the spinning mind” creating a “dream fantasy”!

Speak about you speak about me what is the different?

The same or different, why does it matter either way? Inherently there is neither “same” nor “different” nor “not-same”, nor “not-different”. Why the preoccupation with distinctions?

I am trying to get people out of their spinning mind with any tool.

Why such a concern for the “spinning mind” of others when you do not address the “spinning of your own mind”?

Since there is nothing to attain there is no spinning occurring other then the reflection of the spinning of your own mind projected upon others. Stop your own spinning and you will no longer see other minds spinning! Or one could say, recognize there are inherently no “spinning minds” and one no longer sees “spinning minds” as spinning! Spinning minds are a “dream fantasy” you have attached yourself too!

Here goes again. programing robotic mind as usual.

What about your own robotic mind? Why concern yourself with the robotic mind of others when you have yet to address your own robotic mind?

instead of thanking me going through everything to communicate what is the "SILENCE" as in the "Using Silence to lead the Action" means.

Now whose ego mind is spinning? Why does it matter if you are thanked or not? One does not thank the sun for rising every morning, it is in the nature of the sun to do so! One does not thank a flower for opening up to the sun! It is in the nature of the flower to do so!

If information is truly freely given for the mutual benefit of all, there is no need for thanks or recognition. The sun shines, the flower opens, these are beautiful phenomena, just accept them and enjoy them for what they are!

and also how to attain it.

Why the concern for the attainment of others, when you have yet to attain anything at all? If there is no attainment, as Buddha teaches, why concern oneself with attainment?

This is from my lineage and my transmission. Hope that this direct release dont attract some one's EGO attack ; or shock some people.

Why the concern for the “EGO” of others? Is this not your own “EGO” “fantasy dream” speaking?

without get into silence one doesnt manage the attention to lead the Qi well. because the mind is disturbing the heck out of everything and cause the training to be noisy and absent of awareness.

If one dwells in “silence” there is no need to lead Qi. Qi will go where it is needed “of itself” according to its nature. One only thinks of “leading Qi” when is trapped within the “spinning mind”.

Does one enter into silence or does one let the program one keep drilling to take over.

Not everyone cares about “entering into silence” and that is okay. For some “drilling” meets their purpose. Inherently, “silence” or “drilling” there is no difference. The difference is created by the “spinning mind”!

According to your best friend the "mind" or "critical thinking", you are absolutely right. Someday, hope you will see how dangerous is this type of mind leading one into a short circuit loop of trap.
There is only danger of a “short circuit loop…trap” when one is attached to the “spinning mind”. Inherently, there is no “spinning mind”, no “short circuit loop” and no “trap”. Therefore, there is inherently no danger! If there is inherently no danger, why worry about it at all!

Why so much concern for the “short circuit loop…trap” of others when you cannot see your own “short circuit loop…trap”?

Seriously, you have not met the silence I am qouting.

Neither have you! Your "Spinning mind" creating your own "dream fantasy" is abundantly clear! Because you have not found your own silence, why presume to teach others what you do not yet fully understand for yourself?

Find your own silence first and you will discover there is no silence to find!

As always, you make to many assumption based on your believe,

where is your critical thinking when it comes to analyze your own mind pattern?

Why the concern for the “assumption based upon the belief” of others when you cannot address your own “assumptions based upon your own beliefs”?

Where is your own critical thinking when it comes to analyze your own mind pattern?

Why attempt to teach others what you do understand for yourself?

When you find your own silence you will discover there is no silence or spinning mind of others. All you saw was just your own "spinning mind" spinning!

One power of the Silence is the ability of self diagnosis /analysis and dropping thoughts at will. Thus, it says Using silence to lead action instead of one walks into one's own death trap. It has much much better control in that state compare with mind state.

Not everyone cares!

The power of "self diagnosis /analysis" does not occur with "silence". As long as there is something to "self diagnosis /analysis" there is no "silence".

Silence is nothing misterious at all. it is also call beingness, it can be meet when one goes beyond one's mind . From Think state to know state and then go beyond into the Be state. mind cannot analyze it because Silence is beyond mind or Silence give birth to mind. when one can go there one can drop one's thoughts as one likes it. but mind will not be able to get to silence no matter what the mind think.

This one is pretty good however a few comments:

You missed the “nothing” state, also referred to as “no-mind” or “sunyata”! Inherently there is no “being”. If one is aware of “being” they are still stuck within the “spinning mind”!

Thoughts are not dropped; they are merely not clung too!

Be is Being and Silence, while 99% of the people mistaken Know state as Being; that is a mistake. One must reach the Just Be state to experience, the Know state is still a realm of mind.

As mentioned above, so is the “Be” state! As long as there are any distinctions what-so-ever, there is the "spinning mind" and "dream fantasy"!

Everyone can go to the Be state, the problem is the mind block it out and stuck.

Everyone already IS in the “Be state”, the “Be state” is not “sunyata”, at any rate it is all an illusion. There is no "Be state” there is no “sunyata”. As long as there is discrimination between this and that, there is the “spinning mind” and "Dream fantasy".

Scott R. Brown

02-24-2010, 04:55 AM

Those who dont know the silence are spending life en slave by the mind and chansing rainbow. keep thinking rainbow is real but never touch it. it is a never ending struggle or hunger for control.

And there is nothing wrong with “spending life enslave by the mind and chasing rainbow”…..if this were not so….if there where no one “enslave by the mind chasing the rainbow”….it would not be Tao!

At any rate, why such a concern for whether others are “enslave by the mind chasing the rainbow” when you cannot see your own “enslave by the mind chasing the rainbow”?

Once you free yourself from being “enslave by the mind chasing the rainbow” you will lose your clinging to the need to free others from “enslave by the mind chasing the rainbow” and realize there is no “enslave by the mind chasing the rainbow” from the first!

If that never ending struggle is the martial art one chasing after, that is a biggest misery. might as well, go do something instead of training martial art.

There is nothing wrong with this….it is your own “clinging to a “dream rainbow” that makes it look like a struggle to you. You see a glass half empty when you could be seeing it half full or perhaps even just a glass of water with no value attached. Why “struggle” to enlighten others when you cannot even enlighten yourself? Inherently there is no struggle; “struggle” is just the “spinning mind” creating a “dream rainbow”!

dont hope, that is your mind fooling you sell you the chasing rainbow dream.

Better to worry about your “rainbow dream” and let others worry about their own.

It is more likely, however, that it is your own “spinning mind” and ”rainbow dream” you project on to others!

What you see as the "rainbow dream" of others is your own "rainbow dream" projected onto others by your own "spinning mind"!

Address your own “rainbow dream” and "spinning mind" and everyone else’s “rainbow dream” and "spinning mind" magically disappears too!

Thus, we missed the silence, we seldom listen to what it is, we seldom see what it is; instead of thinking what our mind present us is what it is.

Not everyone cares about the silence. As long as you care it is your “spinning mind” creating your own “dream fantasy”!

taai gihk yahn

02-24-2010, 03:01 PM

Scott, dude - SHUT UP!!! don't you realize what he just did?!?

I have just reveal a small part of my SLT Kuen Kuit to the public in the WCK forum.

maybe he'll reveal more, but if you keep on like this, he's gonna clam up and THEN what are we going to do???

JPinAZ

02-24-2010, 05:33 PM

maybe he'll reveal more, but if you keep on like this, he's gonna clam up and THEN what are we going to do???

Throw a party and celebrate!

Scott's spot on with his posts, I enjoyed them :)

Hardwork108

02-25-2010, 12:02 AM

dont hope, that is your mind fooling you sell you the chasing rainbow dream.

There is no such thing as "one day"
Just "be" in this instant,
you just need to dont use your thinking mechanism, do nothing; and be ; and you are there.

An easy way to do this is, Just put yourself into the state of waiting, and you can have a glimpse of Silence;

Do this, get yourself into the following :

Say, some one is saying something to you and she stops before finished the full sentence. So you wait there, wait for her to continuous and finished her sentence.

There when you wait, your mind doesnt Think and the beingness is fully activate. the "be" surface. that is silence.

some who is sharp and young can have a glimpse of silence as the above, however to be able to get in at will there is lots of training needed. Some are more dull and cant get that glimpse.

Every one has it, however,
We are so poluted these days in this new age of too much information, sensation programming, and non stop mind spinning.

Thus, we missed the silence, we seldom listen to what it is, we seldom see what it is; instead of thinking what our mind present us is what it is.

Advance martial art is about breaking boundary, one can never repeat the same tan sau twice, one can never perform the same take down twice, every small details count, from the small details one can break the trap or see the flaws, and to be able to have the ability of crystal clear in small details, one needs to be able to get into silence.

Thanks Hendrik. What you say makes sense to me. I will try as you said.
Thank you again for the pointing the way.

Scott R. Brown

02-25-2010, 01:24 AM

Thanks Hendrik. What you say makes sense to me. I will try as you said.
Thank you again for the pointing the way.

You for got your.....:rolleyes:

Scott R. Brown

02-25-2010, 02:04 AM

Scott, dude - SHUT UP!!! don't you realize what he just did?!?

Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
I have just reveal a small part of my SLT Kuen Kuit to the public in the WCK forum.
maybe he'll reveal more, but if you keep on like this, he's gonna clam up and THEN what are we going to do???

I have no problem with Hendrik spinning his yarns about dream fantasies. They are quite enjoyable to read.

I also understand that many people LOVE to be baffled by BULLS!T, that some people confuse BULLSH!T with wisdom, and still others really LOVE to read and hear wise sounding nonsense from someone who has dream fantasies of grandeur from his spinning mind while criticizing the dream fantasies of everyone else as if HIS dream fantasy, from his spinning mind, is the only TRUE dream fantasy from a spinning mind!

But, there are at least two sides to every view, story, line of BULLSH!T! I was just providing an opposing view point, sort of like what I am doing with your FEAR MONGERING ....er.....I mean sycophantic post!:p

Besides, if he doesn’t provide us with the rest of his super-secret kueen kooit, what you don't know won't hurt you, or confuse you, or hurt you!!!:confused::eek::D:cool:

anerlich

02-25-2010, 02:12 AM

Seriously, you have not met the silence I am qouting.

That silence is most apparent on the threads on which you do not post.

Scott R. Brown

02-25-2010, 02:22 AM

That silence is most apparent on the threads on which you do not post.

LOL!!!! You sir, have demonstrated yourself to be an Upright Specialist!!:)

Wayfaring

02-25-2010, 07:27 AM

That silence is most apparent on the threads on which you do not post.

And the corollary to this gem of wisdom of silence leading to action.

Silence = not spending as much time on these forums.
Action = more time to train.

Or, those with the highest post counts might not be those with the highest number of training hours.

Scott R. Brown

02-25-2010, 08:56 AM

And the corollary to this gem of wisdom of silence leading to action.

Silence = not spending as much time on these forums.
Action = more time to train.

Or, those with the highest post counts might not be those with the highest number of training hours.

So.....according to your reasoning......what you are saying is:

1 + tomato soup = Tuesday!!!

wtxs

02-25-2010, 11:54 AM

Scott, dude - SHUT UP!!! don't you realize what he just did?!?

maybe he'll reveal more, but if you keep on like this, he's gonna clam up and THEN what are we going to do???

We can finally enjoy the silence. :p:rolleyes::)

Hendrik

02-25-2010, 12:14 PM

To those who seriously search into WCK Kuen kuit in the past, present, and future.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w15oBWYa9dQ&feature=related

Hendrik

02-25-2010, 12:20 PM

Thanks Hendrik. What you say makes sense to me. I will try as you said.
Thank you again for the pointing the way.

Do it and
Let me know if you can enter into the state.
Dont spend life time read about it or think about it. have a glimpse on what is it atleast. That way one can recognize who else in other art is using it.

With it one's kungfu is not neccessary advance, however,
without it one's kung fu is certainly cant reach the advance.

Wayfaring

02-25-2010, 12:48 PM

So.....according to your reasoning......what you are saying is:

1 + tomato soup = Tuesday!!!

Shazam, Batman!!!

t_niehoff

02-25-2010, 01:58 PM

Shazam, Batman!!!

Let's all have a group hug and thank Hendrik for his contribution. Yes, he does things differently, but that is what this forum should be all about: uncritical acceptance of anyone's ideas and practices. Redicule, sarcasm, irony, critical thinking, and all other forms of "negative energy" are merely the tools of people who have agendas and are stroking their own egos in a vain attempt to prove themselves right. Aren't we better than that?

Don't let this worthwhile discussion get sidetracked by those who only want to promote their own agendas. People without positive contributions -- and I don't mean this as a negative criticism -- to the discussion at hand should show some self control and refrain from jumping in and trying to forward their own agenda, citing things like logic, common sense, asking for evidence, and the like. Set those things aside. It's good to be exposed to differing points of view and thereby build a better understanding of the various methods available.

I know that I, for one, am very interested in how 1 + tomato soup = Tuesday.

YungChun

02-25-2010, 02:27 PM

Can't stop laughing... Too funny. :o

Who would have thought, the best post on this thread..from T.

Make it a sticky..

kung fu fighter

02-25-2010, 02:59 PM

Let's all have a group hug and thank Hendrik for his contribution. Yes, he does things differently, but that is what this forum should be all about: uncritical acceptance of anyone's ideas and practices. Redicule, sarcasm, irony, critical thinking, and all other forms of "negative energy" are merely the tools of people who have agendas and are stroking their own egos in a vain attempt to prove themselves right. Aren't we better than that?

Don't let this worthwhile discussion get sidetracked by those who only want to promote their own agendas. People without positive contributions -- and I don't mean this as a negative criticism -- to the discussion at hand should show some self control and refrain from jumping in and trying to forward their own agenda, citing things like logic, common sense, asking for evidence, and the like. Set those things aside. It's good to be exposed to differing points of view and thereby build a better understanding of the various methods available.

I know that I, for one, am very interested in how 1 + tomato soup = Tuesday.

let's all sing along:) come on just the girls, now the boys, every body http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncvx8OVWaqg

taai gihk yahn

02-25-2010, 03:11 PM

To those who seriously search into WCK Kuen kuit in the past, present, and future.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w15oBWYa9dQ&feature=related
so basically, the message is to get drunk and post random links; got it;

That silence is most apparent on the threads on which you do not post.
I think you just closed the forum w/that; if not the entire intern3tz...

I know that I, for one, am very interested in how 1 + tomato soup = Tuesday.
weren't you paying attention?!? :rolleyes: ok, since you obviously missed it the first time:

To those who seriously search into WCK Kuen kuit in the past, present, and future.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w15oBWYa9dQ&feature=related

Scott R. Brown

02-25-2010, 04:43 PM

Shazam, Batman!!!

<In low voice> I'mmmmmmm Batman!!!:)

Let's all have a group hug and thank Hendrik for his contribution. Yes, he does things differently, but that is what this forum should be all about: uncritical acceptance of anyone's ideas and practices. Redicule, sarcasm, irony, critical thinking, and all other forms of "negative energy" are merely the tools of people who have agendas and are stroking their own egos in a vain attempt to prove themselves right. Aren't we better than that?

Hi t_niehoff,

If you perceive ridicule and/or "negative energy" in my first two posts it is energy you brought with you.

I have done nothing that Hendrik has not done himself when he said:

I am trying to get people out of their spinning mind with any tool.

And I have honestly set about to guide him in the best manner I know how, just as he does. He truly does not seem to understand his own spinning mind or his own dream fantasy. How is he to discover his errors if someone doesn’t generously take the time to show him? He is a novice who appears to fancy himself a master when in truth he is a novice in need of a master.

Instead of being critical yourself perhaps you and Hendrik should be, once again in the words of Hendrik:

thanking me going through everything to communicate what is the "SILENCE"

I have done nothing more or less than Hendrik....I provided him with constructive criticism to his posts as he does for others. I was also generous in that I did not critique EVERYTHING he misunderstands, but only used selected passages. If no one takes the time to be generous and provide constructive criticism, how is he to discern between what he thinks he knows and what he misunderstands and what he truly knows and understands. His understanding is incomplete. He is still young in his journey and he allows his robotic mind to spin and create his own dream fantasy, and he clearly does not perceive this for himself.

Don't let this worthwhile discussion get sidetracked by those who only want to promote their own agendas. People without positive contributions -- and I don't mean this as a negative criticism -- to the discussion at hand should show some self control and refrain from jumping in and trying to forward their own agenda, citing things like logic, common sense, asking for evidence, and the like. Set those things aside. It's good to be exposed to differing points of view and thereby build a better understanding of the various methods available.

Everyone has an agenda, you have one, Hendrik has one, I have one, etc. There is nothing wrong with having an agenda. Every thread, post etc, reflects a separate and distinct agenda. Whether a post is considered a positive or negative contribution is determined by one’s own personal agenda. If you perceive a negative agenda it is your own spinning robotic mind creating a dream fantasy of a glass half empty, rather than a glass half full.

As with Hendrik, and all of us for that matter, it would be more beneficial for you to perceive your own agenda, negative contributions, and negative attitude rather than projecting your own dream fantasy onto others.

It is important, I would think, that if one is concerned about the agendas of others they should face their own first. There is nothing inappropriate about asking for, “things like logic, common sense, asking for evidence, and the like”. Not everyone perceives, learns and understands in the same manner. Not everyone has the same level of learning and understanding. When your own agenda will not allow for the need of others to understand according to their own manner you rob them of the opportunity to learn and grow further. When you do not allow others to post according to there own agenda, and not just yours, or the ones you accept as valid, it makes it appear you are insisting that others learn the same way you do, which is a bit selfish, don’t you think?

I know that I, for one, am very interested in how 1 + tomato soup = Tuesday.

It makes perfect sense if one is willing to delve into the context of what it was responding too. It might take a little work to figure out, but if you wish to take a guess or two I will be happy to help you find the answer. :)

Wayfaring

02-25-2010, 04:58 PM

I'm sure there's some humor or sarcasm in the last few posts, but they are too much of a FRAT for me to read.

Just remember that you are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.

t_niehoff

02-25-2010, 05:08 PM

Hi t_niehoff,
If you perceive ridicule and/or "negative energy" in my first two posts it is energy you brought with you.

Was I too subtle?

Hendrik

02-25-2010, 05:10 PM

It is just a super simple thing.

What is blanking one off from one's infinity is the mind. The mind blocks it.

So, drop the mind, and the being-ness surface. There the body will do much much better then before the dropping.

However, Dropping the mind is a big problem because there require technics or Dharma or methods or Fatt in Chinese to be able to do it.

The technics or methods are usually in the Kuit. and also, there are sequence in the technics or process. usually, without a transmission, one can read the kuit literaly but cant enter because one might not know how to handle the sequence and or the weight of the process steps. In ancient China, only those who is an inner circle student will know these critical key.

Thus, a legit sifu with attainment and transmission of the lineage one study is extremely important

bawang

02-25-2010, 05:14 PM

hendrik gets all his information from chinese google

he tried to bullsh1t about northern kung fu training in some thread, except he got the info from 72 shaolin secret arts pdf

he said tree hugging skill, a weight lifting excercise involves actually hugging a tree and absorbing its chi

rofl

t_niehoff

02-25-2010, 05:21 PM

Those who really like to learn, my suggestion is asked first who is the sifu of the person who preach and where did him got the attainment and transmission.

There is no such thing as "transmission" -- skill doesn't come via transmission, it comes from learning the skill and then practicing the skill.

Nor is there "attainment" -- there are just varying degrees of skill.

For people who think in terms of "transmission" and "attainment", I offer the following:

Do not seek attainment or transmission,
Both are dualities: Fundamentally Empty and Void.
That which is Not Empty nor Void is Skill,
This is the athlete's genuine form.

Wayfaring

02-25-2010, 05:31 PM

However, Dropping the mind is a big problem ...
dropping the mind isn't a problem around here - people do it usually right before they press "Submit Reply" on the post editor.

It's finding the mind once they've dropped it that seems to be the difficulty.

Hardwork108

02-25-2010, 05:46 PM

Let's all have a group hug and thank Hendrik for his contribution. Yes, he does things differently, but that is what this forum should be all about: uncritical acceptance of anyone's ideas and practices. Redicule, sarcasm, irony, critical thinking, and all other forms of "negative energy" are merely the tools of people who have agendas and are stroking their own egos in a vain attempt to prove themselves right. Aren't we better than that?

Don't let this worthwhile discussion get sidetracked by those who only want to promote their own agendas. People without positive contributions -- and I don't mean this as a negative criticism -- to the discussion at hand should show some self control and refrain from jumping in and trying to forward their own agenda, citing things like logic, common sense, asking for evidence, and the like. Set those things aside. It's good to be exposed to differing points of view and thereby build a better understanding of the various methods available.

I know that I, for one, am very interested in how 1 + tomato soup = Tuesday.

IMHO, you should buy a good book on the subject matter discussed by Hendrik. You don't have to practice this stuff but it would help for you to have an understanding of the concepts and methodologies that which you so blindly ridicule.

Hendrik

02-25-2010, 07:06 PM

for those in China, Taiwan, and SEA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJzfH9RVpAU

Scott R. Brown

02-25-2010, 07:33 PM

It is just a super simple thing.

What is blanking one off from one's infinity is the mind. The mind blocks it.

Mind is always there, it never disappears. It is not the mind, per se, that blocks the infinity mind, it is confusion, or misperception caused by clinging. But if one wanted to say it was the mind that blocks the infinity mind, one would also have to say it is the mind that unblocks the infinity mind! The common denominator is mind. Mind, mind, mind…..there is no ceasing of thought, there is no ceasing of mind, there is no ceasing of the function of mind, the only thing that ceases is clinging.

So, drop the mind, and the being-ness surface. There the body will do much much better then before the dropping.

It isn’t so much you are wrong Hendrik, as incomplete in your understanding. It is true the body performs much better when the spinning mind is not in control of the body, but if one is only going half way, they are not enjoying the benefits of going all the way.

You are only going half way here. The idea of “Being” is still the spinning mind, if you do not understand this then you have more to understand, if you do understand this than it is irresponsible to not be more clear.

It is impossible to drop the mind. Mind IS! You cannot drop it, avoid it, extinguish it, silence it! However, mind may function in a more effective manner. This is accomplished by letting go of clinging. It isn’t spinning mind that causes the inefficient use of Mind, it is clinging of any kind, including clinging to the idea of a spinning mind, robotic mind, or dream fantasy!

However, Dropping the mind is a big problem because there require technics or Dharma or methods or Fatt in Chinese to be able to do it.

This too is an erroneous view. The use of techniques is still attachment to the “idea of purity” as Hui-Neng teaches. Attachments are the problem, not the mind per se. You cannot polish a brick using another brick. You cannot let go of attachments by becoming attached to something else such as techniques, Dharma, methods, etc.. You do not put out a fire by adding more fuel! You cannot end clinging by clinging to a method to end clinging!

The technics or methods are usually in the Kuit. and also, there are sequence in the technics or process. usually, without a transmission, one can read the kuit literaly but cant enter because one might not know how to handle the sequence and or the weight of the process steps. In ancient China, only those who is an inner circle student will know these critical key.

Thus, a legit sifu with attainment and transmission of the lineage one study is extremely important

And this is attachment to Master, transmission, techniques, methods, and kuit!

Having a teacher is certainly a benefit at times, but when ones teacher does not understand his own spinning mind all he does is help keep the students’ minds spinning. This causes the student to believe they have stopped their own spinning mind when in fact all they have done is change the kind of spin their mind is engaged in. If one does not recognize their own spinning mind, they cannot effectively help others recognize their own!

Scott R. Brown

02-25-2010, 07:48 PM

Was I too subtle?

Perhaps so, or my own agenda clouded my understanding of yours in my own mind, LOL!;)

I am happy to be corrected if I misunderstood your meaning!:)

Wayfaring

02-25-2010, 08:35 PM

Mind is always there, it never disappears. It is not the mind, per se, that blocks the infinity mind, it is confusion, or misperception caused by clinging. But if one wanted to say it was the mind that blocks the infinity mind, one would also have to say it is the mind that unblocks the infinity mind! The common denominator is mind. Mind, mind, mind…..there is no ceasing of thought, there is no ceasing of mind, there is no ceasing of the function of mind, the only thing that ceases is clinging.

Myself, I practice mind over matter. I don't mind, therefore it doesn't matter :D:D:D

JPinAZ

02-25-2010, 08:43 PM

Scott, your posts are a welcome view - stick around! :)

Hendrik

02-25-2010, 10:43 PM

I answer this once and only once for the cultivators of present and future.
It is up to you to decide for yourself.

It is impossible to drop the mind. Mind IS! You cannot drop it, avoid it, extinguish it, silence it!

However, mind may function in a more effective manner. This is accomplished by letting go of clinging.

This is a serious misleading and trap, the reason of this trap is one has no experience in real cultivation and attainment.

And those who believe in the above cant letting go of clinging due to the letting go of clinging is not via mind but via releasing of mind and even awareness.

As clearly instruct in the Shurangama sutra:

“Initially, I entered the flow through hearing and forgot objective states. Since the sense-objects and sense-organs were quiet, the two characteristics of movement and stillness crystallized and did not arise. After that, gradually advancing, the hearing and what was heard both disappeared. Once the hearing was ended, there was nothing to rely on, and awareness and the objects of awareness became empty. When the emptiness of awareness reached an ultimate perfection, emptiness and what was being emptied then also ceased to be. Since production and extinction were gone, still extinction was revealed."

Notice it said

Once the hearing was ended, there was nothing to rely on, and awareness and the objects of awareness became empty. When the emptiness of awareness reached an ultimate perfection, emptiness and what was being emptied then also ceased to be. Since production and extinction were gone, still extinction was revealed

http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Shurangama/Shurangama.htm
Volume 5, page 137.

And this is attachment to Master, transmission, techniques, methods, and kuit!

After one has attain the state of "still extinction was revealed," one automatic doesnt attach.

However, the new born baby better have some one to take care of her and feed proper food.

How smart is it to attach on NON attachment on what one doesnt know?

aving a teacher is certainly a benefit at times, but when ones teacher does not understand his own spinning mind all he does is help keep the students’ minds spinning. This causes the student to believe they have stopped their own spinning mind when in fact all they have done is change the kind of spin their mind is engaged in. If one does not recognize their own spinning mind, they cannot effectively help others recognize their own!

you certainly have never ever met a real deal sifu who has attainment liberation.

how smart is it to make all the assumption.

In conclusion,

1, is one a WCner? if not then how wise is for one to commenting something one doesnt have a clue?

2, is one a practice Chan Buddhist learning and practicing Chan from a practice well attain Chan Monk? if not then how wise is for one to qoute Hui Neng based on one's speculation?

3, How wise is one put one on the padel stone, posting as know it all, while have never ever have a formal training, have never ever meet and verify by an attain teacher?

I rest this case here because it is not neccesary to argue, those who knows knows. Those who knows silence just enter into it at will. can one do it? that is the ultimate bottom line one needs to answer for oneself and not others.

My message to all on this kuen kuit topic are:

1, yes, kuen kuit of details instruction exist in the ancient time.
2, transmission and attainment are real deal and a must because it is not up for intepretation.
3, To enter into silence one needs to drop one's mind as proof in the Buddha teaching in the above Shurangama sutra.
4, To enter into silence is practice and training instead of spinning mind.
5, one needs a legit sifu to lead one and train one to attain what is expected.

I would not mislead you here because there is no point to screw you but in contrary I hope you do great.

Finally,
one must not take what I said as the truth,
check it out for yourself experience it for yourself, and see for yourself what is the fact.
That is the way how my sifus train me.

anerlich

02-25-2010, 10:45 PM

you certainly have never ever met a real deal sifu who has attainment liberation.

Not on this thread, certainly.

Scott R. Brown

02-26-2010, 03:14 AM

I answer this once and only once for the cultivators of present and future.
It is up to you to decide for yourself.

Thank you for taking the time to respond Hendrik. I welcome lively conversations.

On the other hand, I will not limit myself to “this once” because I am always happy to assist anyone on their path to finding their own silence, including you, even though it isn’t really silent, by the way!

This is a serious misleading and trap, the reason of this trap is one has no experience in real cultivation and attainment.

You are speculating, you have no idea what anyone here has attained or experienced.

If you have no experience in “real cultivation and attainment” then perhaps you would be wise to listen to others rather than pontificate about what you clearly do not understand. This will help you avoid trapping yourself and others with your misunderstanding!

Again, to use your own words in paraphrase, you should be thanking me for helping you discover your Silence, as well as your blind spots. This is because your blind spots are misleading you and causing you to mislead others.

My responses here are meant to assist you in discovering for yourself first hand rather than having to quote from Sutras you do not understand.

It is like the difference between a person who has read a book about what an orange tastes like and a person who has actually eaten an orange. The one who read the book (that would be you) only understands the taste from a distance, from the writings of others, while the one who has actually eaten an orange (that would be me) knows first hand and does not require a book written by another to communicate his experience.

And those who believe in the above cant letting go of clinging due to the letting go of clinging is not via mind but via releasing of mind and even awareness.

You may have misunderstood my previous comments. They were meant to indicate this very thing. You cannot use mind to find mind; you cannot use a brick to polish a brick; you cannot put out a fire by adding fuel; you cannot ending clinging though clinging! Of course, since you are well read, you understand these are very common Ch’an teachings!

Mind does not disappear, and neither does awareness. It appears you do not yet fully understand "Mind of no-mind" and "awareness of no-awareness". It does not mean these cease to exist. It means they cease to exist according to our preconceived notions of what we "think" they ARE.

As clearly instruct in the Shurangama sutra:

“Initially, I entered the flow through hearing and forgot objective states. Since the sense-objects and sense-organs were quiet, the two characteristics of movement and stillness crystallized and did not arise. After that, gradually advancing, the hearing and what was heard both disappeared. Once the hearing was ended, there was nothing to rely on, and awareness and the objects of awareness became empty. When the emptiness of awareness reached an ultimate perfection, emptiness and what was being emptied then also ceased to be. Since production and extinction were gone, still extinction was revealed."

Notice it said

Once the hearing was ended, there was nothing to rely on, and awareness and the objects of awareness became empty. When the emptiness of awareness reached an ultimate perfection, emptiness and what was being emptied then also ceased to be. Since production and extinction were gone, still extinction was revealed

Very nice, Hendrik, but you do not appear to fully understand it?

Please, what does "emptiness" mean to you? What does "extinction" mean to you?

If, according to the sutra, "...what was being emptied then also ceased to be." Why have you continually talked about "Being" above here, when, as I have mentioned, there is NO being?

After one has attain the state of "still extinction was revealed," one automatic doesnt attach.

Not quite, "still extinction" does not occur FIRST and THEN one is "not attached". As long as there is attachment, there is NO "still extinction". Not to mention there it is neither, "stillness" nor "no-stillness", there is neither "extinction" nor "no-extinction"!

However, the new born baby better have some one to take care of her and feed proper food.

How smart is it to attach on NON attachment on what one doesnt know?

Exactly!! To attach to non-attachment is still an attachment.

Please allow me to demonstrate the difference between blindly repeating something you do not fully understand and actually having an experience directly. The direct experience may be illustrated by providing unique and individualized examples that are not cited from other authors.

For example, to illustrate the above point I will use my own example and not cite a sutra:

One does not focus upon non-attachment as this is clearly just another attachment. Here is the unique example: It is like letting go of something one holds in their hand. When eating, when one is finished using their fork, they put the fork down. They do not think about putting the fork down. They do not philosophize about putting their fork down. They do not worry about putting their fork down. They do no train themselves to put the fork down with style, or some ritual, or some other contrived means. They simply put it down with no contrivance of any kind, this IS no-mind!

Now for those who enjoy citations from historically accepted Masters, “When I am hungry, I eat, when I am tired, I sleep.”, or if you prefer, “Carry water, chop wood!”

you certainly have never ever met a real deal sifu who has attainment liberation.

Thank God for that too. I have been able to avoid the trap you have fallen into, because apparently you neither have you! But it does appear you have an attachment to a need for a teacher. It appears you have attached to someone who is either an inadequate teacher, or has no clear understanding himself and you do not realize it!

Or you could just be a slow learner and he is being very patient with you allowing you to figure it out for yourself and that is okay. He may be using expedient means according to your own personality limitations.

My method is different, instead of WHACKING someone with a stick, I WHACK them with metaphors, illustrations, examples, etc.

how smart is it to make all the assumption.

Exactly Hendrik, THAT is exactly what I have been trying to get you to understand. Your assumptions, your robot mind, your spinning mind, your dream fantasy has trapped you and you cannot see it.

In conclusion,

1, is one a WCner? if not then how wise is for one to commenting something one doesnt have a clue?

You should answer this one for yourself first before you worry about what others are doing, since you keep posting as an expert about topics you only have a partial understanding of yourself!

On the other hand, my opinion is that it is fair to comment about what you do not fully understand, that is how one learns. So I welcome your thoughts and opinions. By comparing ones own knowledge and experience with the knowledge and experience of others we grow and improve ourselves. We discover our own errors. Error occurs when one thinks that they know it all and therefore think they are blessing others with their dew drops of wisdom when in truth they cannot perceive their own ego attachment that motivates them; when they cannot perceive their own dream fantasy!

Once again, you should be thanking me for taking the time to help you realize the errors which keep you from discovering your own inner silence, which isn’t actually silent, by the way!

2, is one a practice Chan Buddhist learning and practicing Chan from a practice well attain Chan Monk? if not then how wise is for one to qoute Hui Neng based on one's speculation?

As I said above, learners learn from sharing their thoughts, knowledge and experience with others and contrasting and comparing what they think they know with what others think they know. This, as you know, is a Ch’an tradition.

If you think a Ch’an Monk is necessary, then you haven’t met the Buddha on the road and killed him yet!

Good luck with that! I am always here to assist you in your assassination attempts!

3, How wise is one put one on the padel stone, posting as know it all, while have never ever have a formal training, have never ever meet and verify by an attain teacher?

Presuming you have had formal training, how wise it to “posting as know it all”, when one is still a beginner, regardless of their formal training? Ask yourself the question before you pose it to others! Discover your own errors before you think you can clearly point out and understand the errors of others.

Now I personally have no complaints about you posting yourself as a know-it-all because, as I have already said above, that is how we learn and grow. So post all you want and I will be here, happy to guide you on your path as my inclination dictates.

On the other hand, since you have an aversion to others posting as a "know-it-all", to avoid hypocrisy, perhaps you might want to stop posting as a "know-it-all" yourself!;)

Scott R. Brown

02-26-2010, 03:25 AM

My message to all on this kuen kuit topic are:

1, yes, kuen kuit of details instruction exist in the ancient time.

I am in no disagreement here.

2, transmission and attainment are real deal and a must because it is not up for intepretation.

Actually it IS open to interpretation, otherwise ALL the masters would describe the experience exactly the same. Since they do not, it is translated from direct experience to others according to expedient means, and the culture, education, personality, temperament, ability and experiences of the teacher. For example, a more articulate person who speaks their language effectively will tend to be more eloquent than someone who merely WHACKS a person with a stick. Not that an educated teacher would not WHACK someone with a stick as expedient means might dictate.

However, since you BELIEVE it is not open to interpretation, perhaps you should stop interpreting it yourself according to your own robotic spinning mind, dream fantasy!

3, To enter into silence one needs to drop one's mind as proof in the Buddha teaching in the above Shurangama sutra.

There is NO silence, there is no entering, there is nothing to drop, there is no proof, there is no Buddha teaching, and you might as well use the Shurangama Sutra as toilet paper for all the use you are getting out of it.

Or, as I have previously mentioned, the SILENCE is not silent, or you could say the SILENCE is no-SILENCE, just as MIND is no-MIND!

4, To enter into silence is practice and training instead of spinning mind.

The practice and training IS spinning mind as long as one thinks practice and training are a requirement!

5, one needs a legit sifu to lead one and train one to attain what is expected.

Expectations are from the spinning mind. The requirement for a legit sifu is the spinning mind.

One might also question the value you have obtained from your "legit sifu".

As I said, you may be a slow learner, or your sifu may be letting you flounder in order for you to learn on your own, and that is fine. At any rate, that is NOT my method. I will continue to WHACK you as my inclination directs me.

But please understand it is not from my ego, they are loving WHACKS directed at someone who is apparently sincerely on the path, but at times appears totally lost!

I am trying to WHACK you in the right direction, but your robotic, spinning mind, dream fantasy keeps getting in your way!:)

I would not mislead you here because there is no point to screw you but in contrary I hope you do great.

Well said! I do not believe it is your intention to mislead anyone, you are still a beginner however, and there is nothing wrong with that. I believe your intentions are pure, however you see the spinning mind, the robotic mind, the dream fantasy of others, yet are unable to see them within yourself, this is what identifies you as a beginner!

Finally,
one must not take what I said as the truth,
check it out for yourself experience it for yourself, and see for yourself what is the fact.
That is the way how my sifus train me.

That is one of the most important things you have said so far! Good job on that one!:)

t_niehoff

02-26-2010, 04:53 AM

1, is one a WCner? if not then how wise is for one to commenting something one doesnt have a clue?

Here is the only clue you need:

A person's level -- both in skill and understanding -- in WCK is his ability to use it in fighting.

A person's ability to use it in fighting comes ONLY from his practice using it in fighting.

People who don't fight/spar regularly with their WCK can only have a low level of skill and understanding.

2, is one a practice Chan Buddhist learning and practicing Chan from a practice well attain Chan Monk? if not then how wise is for one to qoute Hui Neng based on one's speculation?

Ch'an is bunk. Where are all these "enlightened" masters? They don't exist except in stories.

And,more importantly, it has nothing whatsoever to do with developing skill. All (or 99.999%) world-class athletes and even lesser skilled athletes developed without it. Ch'an is a trap. It is a road in the wrong direction.

You look at things from the classic theoretical nonfighter perspective: how you want things to be rather than how they really are.

3, How wise is one put one on the padel stone, posting as know it all, while have never ever have a formal training, have never ever meet and verify by an attain teacher?

There are no "attain teachers". More fantasy. If you believe you are one, walk into a good MMA school -- and be sure to bring your Blue Cross card -- for a true "enlightenment."

I rest this case here because it is not neccesary to argue, those who knows knows. Those who knows silence just enter into it at will. can one do it? that is the ultimate bottom line one needs to answer for oneself and not others.

The answers are found on the mat, in the ring, in the gym, etc. And, more importantly, the right questions are found there too.

My message to all on this kuen kuit topic are:

1, yes, kuen kuit of details instruction exist in the ancient time.
2, transmission and attainment are real deal and a must because it is not up for intepretation.

That mindset is what prevents you from seeing reality-- you accept without question that the answers are found in the past, and that they must be transmitted by an "enlightened one".

But, the evidence shows that there are no "enlightened ones", that this is a myth. Moreover, when we do examine those who have developed high levels of skill in any form of athletics, we see the same process at work, one that is counter to what you are saying.

3, To enter into silence one needs to drop one's mind as proof in the Buddha teaching in the above Shurangama sutra.
4, To enter into silence is practice and training instead of spinning mind.
5, one needs a legit sifu to lead one and train one to attain what is expected.

I would not mislead you here because there is no point to screw you but in contrary I hope you do great.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Finally,
one must not take what I said as the truth,
check it out for yourself experience it for yourself, and see for yourself what is the fact.
That is the way how my sifus train me.

Too bad you have let your sifus down and not investigated it for yourself. But it is not too late -- go train with some good MMA or MT fighters and see whether your theories work. Yip Man said, "Go out and test it for yoruself, I may be tricking you." You've been tricked. But if you won't go out and test it, you will never know.

Hendrik

02-26-2010, 12:41 PM

Scott R. Brown

02-26-2010, 12:48 PM

Lots of opinions.

Every post itself is the evident of the level of attainment of the person who is posting. Everything is clear.

My late sifu Ven Hsuan Hua, a Chan patriach and a Dharma inheritor of late Chan patriach Ven Hsu Yun, had said:
--------------
Speaking Samadhi with mouth
"You are wrong" and "I am right."
Time could tell the truth
and some have committed karmic trouble for themselve.
--------------
Instead of get one to be free one get oneself into trouble.
What a truth one needs to watch out for.

It is unfortunate you have not learned to apply that little ditty to yourself!:(

But then I wonder....did he ever use words to teach you? Or did he only point to the moon and beat you with a broom? I'm willing to bet he used words too, since that little ditty is words after all, which means he didn't even follow his own advice! hmmmmm? :confused:

It makes one wonder if you fully understand what he meant, doesn't it?;)

bawang

02-26-2010, 04:06 PM

hello everybodies
i am no good talk english like hedrik please excuse
thi my lineages kuen kuit very secret i release

天上月亮圆又圆
象个大烧饼甜又甜
烧饼真好吃
囔囔囔
囔囔囔囔囔
可惜老爷子莫的钱
妈的

Scott R. Brown

02-26-2010, 06:20 PM

hello everybodies
i am no good talk english like hedrik please excuse
thi my lineages kuen kuit very secret i release

天上月亮圆又圆
象个大烧饼甜又甜
烧饼真好吃
囔囔囔
囔囔囔囔囔
可惜老爷子莫的钱
妈的

HA! HA! HA! Your secret is out....now I will be an invincible warrior!

The space moon circle a sky big sesame seed cake sweet also the sweet sesame seed cake is really also delicious murmurs being a pity old gentleman's Qian Ma not - trans from babel fish

The first thing I am going to do tomorrow is go get me some sweet sesame cakes and go look at the moon, not!

LoneTiger108

02-27-2010, 11:20 AM

LoneTiger108

02-27-2010, 11:33 AM

why dont you share some with us?

I would, but the thread can't even discuss the nuggets that are already here :(

I assume you are referring to the kuit, so i have to disagree that it is obscure and meaningless.

Some excerpts:

怕打终打
贪打防空
以攻为守
以守为攻

Afraid to strike, and you will be striked
Greedy to attack, and your defence will be neglected
Attack is defense
and defense can be offense

力从地起
发力在腰
出招在膊
发人者力
打人者劲

Energy derives from the ground
And drives from the waist
and directs from the elbow
Use others energy
to hit them with their own force

To quote CFT, these are profound little "bullet-points", like small reading cards we carry, but their meaning lies in the stacks of notes we joted down before.

FWIW, the lines I know are a lot more descriptive and tend to be instructions rather than advice. I think that's probably what T would refer to as 'core curriculum' methods. They're intended to describe actions and are considered pretty useless without physical guidance to be honest! Of course, they're open to interpretation too as there are many variations.

I'm also not as talented as you guys when it comes to the lingo and I don't have the character settings on my pc either! If you want an example though, there is a brief outline of our foundation methods on our website

http://www.theyumyeurngacademy.co.uk/Curriculum/foundation/foundation.html

The upper block reads from right to left (downwards):

Gaan Sau Toi Wun

Tsong Sum Jik Sin

Hoon Wan Lok Sau

Wang Lan Jarng Dai

Translations are down to you! ;) And this would normally be taught at the very beginning along with the bottom section. Both blocks are considered to be the outline of Wing Chun and include the cross arms and fist work we generally see today.

This way of teaching was unique to Lee Shing, as far as I'm aware, and he was very selective about the guys he taught these methods to. Not so much kuen kuit, but hao kuit IMHO

chusauli

02-27-2010, 11:49 AM

chusauli

02-27-2010, 11:55 AM

This Hao Kuit vs Kuen Kuit is almost as bad as "Ng Mui" vs. "Wu Mei" as the "founder" of WCK! :)

LoneTiger108

03-01-2010, 06:19 AM

Hao Kuit and Kuen Kuit are essentially the same... don't make it more than what it is.

Hao Kuit is the "Oral Knack"; Kuen Kuit is the "Fist Knack". They are mnemonic devices to help you remember key points.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you here Robert. Again. :(

They aren't the same at all, and I would have thought someone who has studied would know this. Being given an instruction to form a shape is not the same as advice on how to fight.

The Wu Mei/Ng Mui argument has no bearing on the different between hao and kuen as they are two distintly different things, Wu Mei and Ng Mui are one in the same person. That's a dialect argument IMO.

CFT

03-01-2010, 07:12 AM

Scott R. Brown

03-01-2010, 09:35 AM

So it boils down to what we classify as kuen kuit. If you don't have the notes (your commentary) and only the couplets then it is certain that personal interpretation will arise.

In which case who cares what they say! There is no reason to be so mysterious except to make one feel smarter than everyone else. It isn't like it is secret knowledge or anything!

Hendrik

03-01-2010, 09:54 AM

So it boils down to what we classify as kuen kuit. If you don't have the notes (your commentary) and only the couplets then it is certain that personal interpretation will arise.

That is true and in fact this is intentionally to protect against anyone who is stolen the kuen kuit.

and also if it is not the true inner circle one will not lead by the sifu to go through it.
A typical fist level of going through it example is present as in my previuos post. one will be lead/coach by the sifu to going through every details to get the basic "glimpse" or what is it, and then the rest one needs to cultivate for the kung fu or depth.

That is called lineage transmission, and after one has the transmission one will need to reach the attainment of the method/process able to.

So, if one doesnt know its specific which it pointing toward, one will not be able to activate the "engine".

Kuen kuit's important is not that shape or fighting this tan sau or that fok sau. It is the soul of the art or how to activate and have the engine which is important.

Since, in the realm of mind, Changes is the truth. while in the realm of Silence which is behind/beyond the mind realm, Beingness is the truth.

So, a holistic kuen kuit has to cover these realm.

It is certainly not mind spinning and competing who's interpretation, translation.....or theory....or critical thinking etc which is the most logical or most deep.... in "talk".

It is the key to turn on the engine. can one do it it is the bottom line. the rest is garbage and wasting of time.

IE: in the case of silence, those who have it: use it for healing, use it for wisdom, use it for figthing, use it to create what they like, use it to erase away karma or erase subsconcious habit......

One goes beyond the mind and work backward to create. nothing theoritical at all.

Hope this help.