When are you a student of a Sifu?

[AndrewP]

Ok, there's been talk about someone learning from a sifu for 2 weeks or weekends. But that brings about another topic:

When can you be called legitimately a student of a sifu and represent him?

Is it on day one of lessons? How about 2 weeks of lessons? Or two weekends? Can you really say that you are a student of a sifu that you don't see except once or twice a year? Or must it be a student who trains with the sifu 1 to 6 times per week for hours at a time over a year or two?

What are your ideas? What's tradition and what's modern reality?

My idea is that you should be working day in and day out at least several months to a year before you say you represent a sifu. If I spent only 30 total days with a sifu over a 10 year period then I say that I really don't represent that sifu.

What are your thoughts?

AndrewP

[Starbuck]

What exactly do you mean by "represent"? If you mean someone whose skill reflects on the sifu's reputation and who is trusted to "speak" for the sifu in matters of instruction and someone who fights punk challengers so sifu doesn't have to waste his time, I would say only formal students, or "disciples" would qualify.

[AndrewP]

Ok Starbuck,

According to you what makes a formal student or disciple.

Just trying to generate conversation and views from people.

AndrewP

[kj]

Originally posted by AndrewP
When can you be called legitimately a student of a sifu and represent him?

IMHO, when the sifu and the student mutually acknowledge such, explicitly or implicitly. We may learn from someone without being their student. In fact I am continuously learning from many people. Yet I have only one sifu.

Some might define a student/teacher relationship based on payment of tuition. But to me that is too flimsy a basis for meaningful claims of such an important bond.

Differences in view may be traced to underlying premises. For instance, my view is based on the premise that the student/teacher relationship has at least some degree of a mutual commitment at its core. Others may view the student/teacher relationship as based only upon some temporal action (e.g., I paid to learn, and they showed me, so I am their student).

There is also the lexical complication of sifu as "teacher" and sifu as "father" or "father/teacher." The first meaning might be used very casually and even with people we don't really know. The second meaning has far more gravity.

As for representing, can we ever in truth and meaning represent anyone but ourselves?

I can entertain and understand other arguments and views. This is just how I see it. I also realize it leaves room for ambiguity; life is like that sometimes.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yenhoi]

You can attend my teachers "classes" if you pay him.

At some point you become his student, I doubt that there is a time frame or actual parameters. He doesnt offer private lessons (which cost 0 dollars) if you are not a "student."

Only 2 of my teachers other students call him sifu (One has trained with him for like 18 years and the other 13, I have only trained with him just over a year now....) I dont call him sifu, but one of the other students did once and he very nicely asked them not to, and kind of explained this to us.

My teacher is super informal, everything is informal. He holds "class" in his backyard, rain or shine, cold or hot, and private lessons are at your house. Im not even sure I understand all this completly, but I want to learn, and he seemingly wants to teach me. :eek:

[John Weiland]

Hi Andrew,

Originally posted by AndrewP
Ok, there's been talk about someone learning from a sifu for 2 weeks or weekends. But that brings about another topic:

When can you be called legitimately a student of a sifu and represent him?

I believe that anyone who spends many years studying with a teacher can claim to have learned as a student of that teacher if the student got personal instruction from the teacher. The process of legitimizing the relationship of sifu/todai is formal and requires the explicit acknowledgement of both parties. Only someone in such a relationship can say they represent their sifu's teaching of Kung Fu. Just studying at a teacher's school does not give one the right.


What are your ideas? What's tradition and what's modern reality?

That was the tradition. Modern reality and modern teachers, such as Ken Chung, often say that the sifu/todai tradition is outdated. Ken acknowledges some of his students and those allowed to teach in his name on the Bay Area Wing Chun website, which can be reached through Planet Wing Chun. www.wingchun.com)

Just because you open up a school doesn't give one the right to teach in a sifu's name, implying he agrees with your readiness to teach and the fullness of your curriculum.

My sifu, Ben Der, and I have a formal sifu/todai relationship which in this context means if I say, "I learned this way," he will acknowledge that I can represent him on matters of Wing Chun principles and methodology. If I didn't fully trust him and he me, then there would be no such possibility of such a relationship, and I am honored to be accepted by him in this regard.


My idea is that you should be working day in and day out at least several months to a year before you say you represent a sifu. If I spent only 30 total days with a sifu over a 10 year period then I say that I really don't represent that sifu.

I think you are right to say that one wouldn't represent the sifu, but many who claim to have been students of Yip Man would be weeded out by such a high standard since the old man did not touch hands with many students, at least not often enough to be said to be their teacher. :D Usually, the older students, such as Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, TST, Wong Shun Leung, and others over the years, did the real teaching.


What are your thoughts?

I think one should be very careful purporting to represent any other person under any circumstance.
:D

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by John Weiland

I think one should be very careful purporting to represent any other person under any circumstance.
:D [/B]

That almost says it all. If you have been learning WC for only 2 months, then that should be stated when you say you learn from so and so. That way they can have an idea of how well you represent them.

[yuanfen]

Andrew P asks:When can you be called legitimately a student of a sifu and represent him?
-----------------------------------------------------
Like many situations- it depends. Do you intend to use 1.an old Chinese standard 2. a contemporaneous standard or 3.
a compromise including a specific teachers personality.
Also, the distinction between beinga student and a representative can be relevant. No simple answers but seems to me the teachers decision is important. I dont see how a student can insist on beinga student whena teacher doesnt accept him/her. One can learn froma person without being an official student. There are sometime official or unofficial auditors.
IN actuality these days student status varies widely these days
from baisi disciple/adopted son status, pay your fees or else you are out. to you can call me ny first name and many things in between.

[reneritchie]

I believe in the old days there were levels of student. Often, there would be a general class, which served as a probationary sifter of sorts. Only one or two basic forms were taught, lots of endurance type activities, and only the most coarse of applications and details provided. Often the sifu himself didn't teach this class, but seniors did.

From this group, some students would be bai si'd (bow to teacher, usually a tea ceremony where the student is formally accepted into the school) and they would move into a more select group where intermediary forms were taught, more details, more application, and closer bond would form between student and teacher, who would often teach more personally as well.

And from this group, a few individuals would be chosen over the years for Yup Sut Dai Jee (Inner Room Student). This would often involve another ceremony, sometimes with the parents giving money to support the student to actually live in the room with the teacher, and the bond formed would be akin to father and son, where the student could even enter the sifu's bedchamber (inner room) without pause. These students learned the advanced sets, details, and applications, and also how to teach the art to others and spread it.

Sometimes, especially in the later years, a sifu might pick one of the Yup Sut Dai Jee to succeed him/her, to become the Cheung Moon Yan (Gatekeeper) of his teachings. Though it could have been, it didn't have to be the best fighter or most talented student (those, especially if taken early on, would sometimes have passed away or even striked out on their own or moved to a different area), but it was someone who could remember (or at least read from records) all the movements of the art and be trusted to preserve it for the next generation, especially as time passed and questions arose.

Usually, I believe, in the general class, you studied with X sifu, as there was still some degree of separation. When you were formally accepted, you studied with sifu. At that point, there was no debate over the relationship.

(It should also be noted that Sigung, Sihing, Sijay, Sidai, Sibak, etc. are all teacher/relations and are covered by that, meaning you can study with them anyway without needing a more formal sito relationship, though in some cases if it becomes primary, it can be formalized that way as well).

RR

[45degree fist]

I have been studying under my sifu for a year and one half and personally I feel that you become a student when you realize that the amount you pay for instruction is not equal to the value of knowledge you are recieving. When tuition is not considered just another bill but as an investment.

[anerlich]

I think it's a matter for the Sifu to determine, not the student.

Then again, maybe those belts and grading certificates some people hate count for something after all?

[nvisblfist]

You could be considered a student when you have completed sil lim tau, because this will demonstrate your willingness to learn more. To the uninitiated sil lim tau can be very boring, but this gives the sifu a lot of information as to the student's makeup. Martial arts is serious business, and how one approaches sil lim tau can tell a sifu if this is someone he will call a student.

Just something to think about

[Grendel]

Originally posted by anerlich
I think it's a matter for the Sifu to determine, not the student.

Anerlich is right. The determination can only be made by the teacher. The question on the thread was wrongly put from the beginning.


Then again, maybe those belts and grading certificates some people hate count for something after all?

Let's not get carried away. Only our belts and certificates are really deserved, after all. :D


Originally posted by nvisblfist

You could be considered a student when you have completed sil lim tau....

No one ever completes Sil Lim Tao. One merely finds new insights within it over time.

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Absolutely.
Its primarily the teacher in any serious subject who defines the serious student and how much they have learned.

The good student then branches off at some point on their own
and some make brand new contributions by building on the past or laying brand new foundations. In the latter function while some feel a call- few are chosen-as it turns out.
An Ip Man doesnt come along every day.