Grappling two opponents

[BSH]

Something I 've always wanted to know: How does a grappler deal with multiple opponents?

I have found that people will only attack you if they feel they have an advantage. Maybe they are bigger than me, which is rare considering my size. Maybe they think they have superior abilities, but people with superior abilities to me would rarely pick a fight with me because they wouldn't have a reason. Maybe they have a hidden weapon. Then again, maybe I do too. Last option is that they have numbers on me; friends around that they know will jump in and take cheap shots when they have the chance.

The last place I want to be is on the ground if my opponent has friends.

To be fair, I am not a grappler and I am limited to the Chin Na which is a part of my system, but that is mainly grab, tear, rip, grab, strike, etc. as opposed to grab and gain submission.

How would I best deal with my opponents friends if I was not a striker?

Obviously I have a bias, but I want to know what to expect if I come across a grappler who becomes an opponent and I have friends around to help me.

[yenhoi]

:rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

you run away, just like aybody should in a multi attacker situation. In the event that you can't run, you try to make a way for you to run. bjj does have take downs that leave you standing, and whether you train to punch properly of not, you do have some concept of how to punch. So, you punch, throw, stomp, use a brick, etc. - you do what you have to do to get out alive.

Now, let's flip the script...when a bigger stronger opponent has you on the ground, what do you do?

[SevenStar]

"Obviously I have a bias, but I want to know what to expect if I come across a grappler who becomes an opponent and I have friends around to help me."

expect the fight of your life. Why are you wondering?

Also, don't forget that most bjj guys crosstrain in muay thai, boxing or some other striking art.

[KnightSabre]

At least once a month I have my students grapple with 2 or more people.
They quickly learn just how difficult it is to grapple more than one person.
However I have used standup grappling on more than one occasion when confronted with multiple attackers.

What I did was to get control of the first attacker and put him between you and the other attacker.Spinning him arround and sinking a standing Rear Naked Choke.By backing up you make it difficult for his friend to get to you.
If you so choose you can put him to sleep and then fight his friend one on one.

Cross training is the only way to make sure that you can fight efficiently in all the ranges so it helps that we do BJJ,Muay Thai,Boxing and JKD.

[Merryprankster]

We did a drill where an attacker takes you down, and has two friends on the sidelines. As soon as you hit the mat, they start moving in.

A typical exchange looked like this: If I couldn't just get up right away because of a sloppy takedown, I recovered guard, swept and came up top. As I transitioned to the top, I low double ankle tackled one attacker onto the mat, leaving two on the mat or one down and one working on getting up, while the third was tripping over bodies. I created the hole I needed, got up, and ran like hell for the "exit."

Try that without actual, real ground skills, with somebody who just wants to keep you there, defensively, so his friends can come play too.

Oh. Wait. You can't. :rolleyes:

Anyway, what Seven said. If I'm in the street, I'm going to use my STANDING grappling techniques to manipulate the other guy where I want him. Preferably between me and his friends, with an open shot to the door.

[MA fanatic]

Yes, this topic has been covered numerous times on virtually every martial arts forum. lol Well, most grapplers are not idiots. They will not go to the ground if they see more than one apponent. As all forms of fighting, grappling has weaknesses. I can ask the same question of striking artists. What do you do if one of those two assailants had as little as 2 years of highschool wrestling? You're down on the ground helpless with both kicking your but. What do stand up fighters do if they have to fight on ice? What if they slip and fall? The possibilities are endless. Keep in mind that most grapplers have striking skills, and are good enough athletes to handle themselves on the ground and on their feet. If you're talking BJJ, most bjj guys have standup skills (basic muay thai style kicks and punches). Judo guys can exicute multiple throws and sambo guys have an arsenal of hand to hand combat techniques. Greco Roman and Freestyle Wrestlers are athletes who don't really think about fighting at all. If they think about fighting, the cross train (many Olympic style wrestlers changed to NHB after retiring and got supplemental training). I have to say that most grapplers are such good athletes, that even with standup training, they could hold their own better than an average CMA black belt.
MA fanatic

That was a post I posted on a similar bjj thread you started on this forum. You have to specify which grappling art you're talking about. There are many of them. Wrestlers train for competition against one apponent. Judo guys have two components: Sport and Self defense. How they train against multiples is up to the teacher. BJJ has 3 compenents: 1)sport bjj 2)self defense 3)Vale tudo (NHB rules with kicks, punches and submissions). Sambo is a sport, but Combat Sambo is the millitary version of it which covers everything from weapons training to fighting multiple assailants. Shooto guys are strong standing up and on the ground. Luta Livre is a sport which covers ground fighting, but equaly stresses standup Muay Thai style fighting. Pancration also covers standup fighting and ground work. I'd say with the exception of wrestling, other forms of grappling arts practitioners are as competent at fighting multiple apponents as CMA guys (keep in mind also that grappling is the oldest form of TMA). As for actually grappling multiple apponents, many schools do when a student is required to grapple two appoents. Or, some drill having a student be put in a choke, and another form of a lock by two different guys. He then has to escape. There are numerous drills, which ones are practiced depends on the teacher.
MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

I have to add, that I have seen some sparring sessions in TMA schools with one student sparring against multiple apponents, and they are the ****hest thing from reality. All control their blows, and no one goes for a take down. Other TMA schools may even prerehearse situations in which you're sorounded. Even more dangerous than that, I have seen some students describe how a particular kata or other form is designed to show methods of fending off multiple attackers. These morons follow the form as if the attackers would be standing and attacking according to the form's prearranged defense.

To flip the coin, I'd like to ask: How would a none grappler deal with a multiple attacker situation if at least one of these attackers has 1 year of highschool wrestling? Or, how would a skilled TMA guy fight one attacker, who has as little as 1 year of highschool wrestling and a pocket knife? Don't forget that grapplers always train with 100% resistance and are used to working against other bodies full force. Most TMA guys are not.
MA fanatic

[guohuen]

I'll go to the ground with two opponents if I'm comfident I can beat them.
Ie. I was a patient at the columbia general hospital and was reading in the lobby one evening after lights out. Two security guards told me I had to go back to my room. I said excuse me , this is a hospital not a jail. One of the idiots laid hands on me and I took him to the floor and put him in the scissors and proceeded to squeeze the ever living out of him. I was having so much fun that when his friend came over to assist I reached out and grabbed his ancle and invited him down for some fun too.
The police had a hard time explaining to these boneheads that they assaulted me and lost because they were laughing too hard.:D
The hospital was very appalagetic and tore up my bill.

[BSH]

Thanks for the replies. This is the information I was looking for.

To reply to the counter questions, I first off attempt to avoid being taken down. Movement helps. I don't want to get into the argument that all fights end up on the ground. Let's say it is unimportant to this thread. If I end up on the ground, I am in trouble. So is any grappler if friends are around.

I prefer the concept of using one opponent to help defend against the others. Whether this is done through choking, holds, movements or strikes, it is my preferred defense/offense.

I enjoy sparring against multiple opponents. I agree that there are MA's that are not realistic in their sparring. I'd like to think that mine is not. It generally involves the multiple opponents determining a strategy which almost always involves taking down or subduing the individual.

I am of the opinion that there are single systems which can train you to deal with all of these situations. IMO, it is not a "system" unless it does. Once again, that is another thread.

Final statement, whether you do it in a single system, or by cross-training, train to deal with as many situations as possible. I'm still trying to find a way to deal with bullets coming from a gun that is out of my reach. Maybe if I watch "The Matrix" again...

Peace to all and thanks for the flameless responses. Nice to see.

[apoweyn]

let's, for a moment, just try and ditch all the 'striking vs. grappling' stuff. and even put aside the possibility that you have exactly sod all about whether you go to the ground or not.

to my mind, there are two things that come into play here: 1) how mobile you are and 2) how well you can control your opponents. and i think they may have an inverse relationship. as the possibilities of mobility are reduced, the need to control the opponent becomes more crucial.

so if i'm on a football field and i know that the gang of guys at the other end of the football field want to kick my ass, i don't need to be able to control those guys. i can just leave.

conversely, if we're in a small room and i'm getting dog piled, my mobility is shot. and it'll come down to my ability to create small shifts in balance, momentum, etc. just to keep one guy between me and the other guy. never mind actually beating them.

clearly, you're less mobile if you're body-to-body with an opponent. and every reasonable BJJ player i've spoken with has said that, given the choice, they'd take the mobility and run. that probably also means that they'd benefit from learning a good standup footwork method (which many do).

conversely, i'm going to have a very difficult time controlling the movements of another person without first coming into contact with them. and the less contact i have with them, the less control i have. if we're not touching at all, i might be able to 'cut off the ring' by leading you into a corner. but that's based on a mutual sense of range. i can't actually prevent that other person from closing on me (short of retreating). i can't manipulate anything more than their reactions.

once things get body-to-body, experience in reading and manipulating is going to become more important. if i'm hip-to-hip, shoulder-to-shoulder with some guy, am i necessarily going to understand or even detect the relevance of a shift in balance or pressure? if i am, am i going to have the skills to deal?

a person with experience reading and moving in that environment whether standing or no is going to be better off than they would have been without that experience.

does that make sense?


stuart b.

[Shisio]

Good thread BSH. I've got a crazy story for you about grappling against 2 attackers.
A BJJ buddy of mine is hanging out at a big party, with a bunch of people he doesn't quite know. A couple of guys want to kick his arse for association with someone they hate. Of course, my buddy doesn't know about their ill intent, and they don't give it away either.
Then just after walking into a room one of the two attackers pushes him really hard foward, so hard that he's about to fall. But attacker #1's pal catches him from falling foward with a solid knee to the rib cage which knocks him backwards onto the ground.
Attacker #2 then jumps on his victim and just starts pummeling. My friend who is still in complete surprise shields most of these punches from the gaurd postion. #2 was going so crazy that #1 didn't yet get a chance to get a kick in. Then the victim turns it around in an instant when he catches one of the punches and armbars it. Please understand that he didn't just hold the arm, he completly broke it- bent it backwards at the elbow! This took out attacker #2 who went off screaming. Attacker #1 was so shocked/horrified that he stopped his potential attack. About now some of my buddy's friends showed up and kicked them both out.

That knee knocked the wind out of him and broke one of his ribs! Apparently the guy who threw it was huge and he punched so hard that he nearly knocked my friend out with the few that he landed!.

So luck, grappling and the horror of it, along with reinforcements saved the day.

[T'ang lang]

IMHO, all the things written earlier have very good points. I think one aspect of the topic is missed in a lot of post. Are we talking about in a friendly environment or are we talking about an agressive attack? Most of the replies deal with more of a "friendly" attack (except for the broken arms). If the attackers are aggressive and trying to do bodily harm, (as a stand up fighter) you try to manipulate them and contol them standing. As the other replies suggest. When taken to the ground, you use eye gouging, ear ripping, and pressure points to help you get the upper hand. Tripping and pulling them on top of eachother is also a good tactic. The have been many times we train with multiple attackers and they always go to the ground sooner or later (mostly sooner). When you cover up to protect yourself, grab something and bring it in with you. An arm, leg, ear lip.... If you rip a guys ear off, his friends see things a lot diffrent.
It is always best to avoid the situattion or atleast see it coming. When the time comes and you think it'll be more then one on one..... Stop it as soon as you can!
If it a friendly attack (playing, drunk friends, training...) you can't use these techniques, so control control control..
I hope I shed some light on the combative side of the question. I hope to read feedback on my oppinion too. I'm always looking for a direction i missed.

[Knifefighter]

How does a grappler deal with multiple opponents?

With multiple tactical folders.

[The Willow Sword]

Well i feel that if you are attacked by two grapplers and taken to the ground you are fuked. so i say you move as much as possible to avoid them getting a decent hold on you and you "RUN Forrest RUN".

I would also say that it would be prudent to carry a blade on you and just practice those eye popping jabs and jugular thrusts. Hey its your life.

TWS

[unkokusai]

IMHO, all the things written earlier have very good points. .


"earlier"? You mean like FOUR YEARS AGO?

[wiz cool c]

You don't always have a choice. I have won push hands competition so I think I have a good root. I had a fight with my manager of the gym I used to work at. He tackled me from from my side and I wound up with my back on the table and him in my open guard. He is a black belt in some ecolectic style and was trying a pressor point thing to my neck. Well I do judo to and when he extended his arm i locked it in an arm bar.He still has problems with it today I understand. Well now I'm doing Shuai Jiao so I think I would have as good as any chance of staying on my feet if I had to. But if your not trained in some ground fighting scrambling around for position trying to claw at people is weak. At least it didn't work for this guy.