The 4 Biggest Lies About BJJ part 1

[KnightSabre]

This is taken from the Underground Forum.

It's long but I think it's quite an interesting read and may help some people understan BJJ a little better.

Anyway here goes.

I've noticed a trend to resort to the same old wheezy arguments in style vs. style threads.

Let me be quite clear: I can respect honest healthy disagreement and debate. I consider myself primarily a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (BJJ) stylist these days, but I've trained in a lot of systems over the years (more years than I care to share with you). I can understand when people who do not practice BJJ feel that their own system may have some valid and effective ways to deal with self defense issues, and may feel that these methods are even preferable to BJJ's methods. I don't like to bash Traditional Martial Arts (of which there are actually few...Sumo springs to mind), and recognize that people take TMAs for differant and valid reasons, and that many feel that TMAs can help with self-defense. We can agree to disagree on such topics.

But is a waste of bandwidth, and you demean yourself intellectually, if you post one of the standard wheezy arguments (""The ground is the last place you want to be in a street fight"; "I (or an attacker) would just scratch / eye gouge / groin grab / bite / eagle claw someone trying to use BJJ on the street"; "You pull guard on me in the street, I (or any attacker) will just pull out a knife and bury it in you"; "You try to pull guard in the street, I (or your opponent's) 22 friends will take turns booting you in the head!") in discussing the issues, as if you have posted some new revelation that none of us have thought of before. (Feel free to add the phrases "Butt-Scoot" or "Pull Guard" to any variation of the above statements.)

As a public service, in response to the above wheezy arguments, which we shall call "wheezes", I've listed some standardized responses. To preserve precious forum bandwidth, in the future, please feel free to cut and paste these answers, or simply post the Answer Number for brevity, i.e.:

THEIR POST: "If you try to pull guard on the street, I'll just pull out my lock blade folder and bury it in your ribs!"

YOUR POST: "TSO Standard Answer 3-B. No further response needed."

In this way, You will help me achieve electronic immortality. You will also perplex new forum members in the future.

Let's get started:


STANDARD WHEEZE #1) "The ground is the last place you want to be in a street fight!"
Answer "1-A": As Mark Tripp, a judoka and noted non-BJJ player once correctly pointed out, a STREET FIGHT is the last place you want to be in a street fight! Usually, you go to the ground in a street fight BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER! In the real world, people trip (on curbs, curbstones, rocks, other combatants), slip (on mud, snow, water, because you wore slick-soled dress shoes on a date), try takedowns that seemed like a good idea at the time but didn't work out the way you planned (he grabs on to you as you try to sweep his legs out, great drunken ******* that he is, and you both go down), and, surprise surprise, you get thrown or knocked the **** down! Having a good sprawl is great, but will not keep you upright in all the above circumstances. Once you're down, your new friend may not let you get up so quick.

You don't intend to get in an accident every time you drive, but you still (should) wear your seat belt, right?

Answer "1-B": Your job may require you to take someone down and handcuff them, i.e., law enforcement officers, military personnel on prisoner snatch or peace-keeping missions, loss control prevention/security guards, etc.. Have you ever tried to get handcuffs on an actively resisting suspect without restricting his mobility by putting him on the ground? If not, you have three choices:

1) Shoot him until he is as dead as a beaver hat / disco / Democratic party political dominance (probably not recommended in all circumstances), OR

2) Have a lot of back-up (preferably large male officers who powerlift), execute the "polyester pile-up" technique," and pray that you are not caught between the offender and the officers on top of you, OR

3) If you are alone, and/or he is bigger and stronger and more chemically enhanced than you and your partner put together, have some skills that rely less on brute strength than a) leverage b) balance c) technique. Hmmm, where have we heard those three facets of that equation before?

Answer "1-C": Most people on the street have ZERO ground fighting skills. While standing, they have a rudimentary game plan at best: ("I will strike the other person until they give up or are knocked out. If he tries to strike me, I will either take his punches or try to block them. This plan, though rudimentary, has worked for me since grade school and is in accordance with every action movie/TV show/sporting event I have ever watched.") Take them to the ground and they will try to get on top and hit you, or, if they can't be on top, try to get a headlock and hang on ("HEY! I got his freakin' head!! I'm WINNING!!!). Begin to establish position, transition to a superior position, overcome resistance and apply a submission, choke, or pin, and they are clueless. You can almost see their brain freeze up, overwhelmed by the rapid transition of events. (In military parlance, you have overwhelmed their OODA ("Observe-Orient-Decide-Act") cycle).

Answer "1-D": The ground can be your friend. The ground is the side of the Octagon wall, lying flat on the ground. It limits his movements, allowing jointlocking techniques to be far more effective and difficult to escape from than if those jointlocks are applied standing, aikido or JJJ-style. If he is on the bottom, it limits his shoulder rotation and hip movement, reducing his ability to effectively strike. If it is not good for one person in a fight to be the one on the ground, then obviously, it is going to be better for the other person. WHY NOT BE THAT OTHER PERSON?
Answer "1-E": And, in the unlikely event your opponent IS a skilled groundfighter (Olympic wrestler or Judoka, ex-Spetsnaz Sambo champion, renegade BJJ black belt, or what have you), you for **** sure better have some skills on the ground, as for sure he's going to take you there and you will not have much choice in the matter).

(BONUS SUB-STRAWMAN ARGUMENT 1.1: "Yeah, try pulling guard / butt-scooting In The Street!" Yes, facing an opponent in the street bent on doing me harm, I will drop to my butt, scooting towards him like a dog with worms, my legs extending and waving about like the tentacles of a giant squid, trying desperately to entwine my legs around his hips and draw him into my maw-guard so that I can perform a complicated sweep. Sheesh.

BJJ is about getting top position. Once you get top position, you defeat by strikes or submissions. Watch some of the challenge fights on the Gracie Jiu Jitsu in Action vids. Do you see anyone pulling guard? Nope, Royce, Royler, Rickson, and Rorion do the same thing with monotonous regularity: clinch, takedown, establish mount, punch them until they roll and give their back, and either punch them in the back of the head some more for chuckles or choke them out. That's the progression.

If you do wind up with someone on top of you, his legs will either be outside yours (not so good) or inside your legs (better). Know how to exploit both situations to escape or attack.

(BONUS SUB-STRAWMAN ARGUMENT 1.2): "The ground ain't a mat - there is gravel and crack pipes and broken glass and hot asphalt! You don't want none of that!

Answer 1.2-A: All the more reason to be on top when you go to the ground.

Answer 1.2-B: Yeah, it hurts a little to do a takedown or scramble on gravel or asphalt. It hurts less than getting your ass kicked. Cowboy up!

[KnightSabre]

STANDARD WHEEZE #2: "Real fights aren't pretty like on the mat. In The Street, people bite and claw and eye-gouge!"
Meeow! Phffsst! Meeoww!

Answer "2-A": UFC 1: Gerard Gordeau tries to bite Royce Gracie's ear off. Guess who tapped, and if Royce hadn't been such a nice guy, would have had a broken elbow. (Watch the tape if you don't believe me. You can clearly see the bite mark on Royce's ear at the end, and don't have to be a lip reader to understand what Royce was saying to the ref). Rickson would have probably broken the arm. Relson would probably have broken the arm and then killed him.

Vale Tudo 1995 (The fight chronicled in the documentary "Choke"): Gerard Gordeau (again) vs. Yuki Nakai. Gordeau eye gougees Nakai, who still taps Gordeau in an arm bar, despite sustaining serious damage to his eye. If he hadn't been in the ring with a referee nearby, do you think Gordeau would have a functioning arm (or maybe his life) today?

Answer "2-B": I have you in a falling arm-bar (juji-gatame). You say you would just bite my leg, a la Bruce Lee vs. Bolo Yeung in "Enter the Dragon". You bite, I extend my hips. Who is going to open his mouth first? I will pour some betadine on the bite and have a pretty scar to show the girls. You will have a broken arm and no teeth after I drop my boot heel on your mouth.

Answer "2-C": You can train Keena Mutai all you want; if you don't have positional control, biting won't help you much. Obviously, you do have to be careful defending against the bite (try keeping it in the back of your mind next time you roll, and see when you are vulnerable), but no way in HELL am I going to use biting as a tool in my own defensive strategy, unless it is a matter of life or death. I have too much respect for blood-borne pathogens.


STANDARD WHEEZE #3: "They pull knives out, too! Big long pointy ones! You'll get stabbed if you try to pull guard in The Street!"
Answer "3-A": I'm a big fan of movie swordfights. "The Three Musketeers," "The Duellists," I love those kind of flicks. A street knife-fight is not a duel. People do not stand at arms-length and thrust and parry, like the duellists in a movie choreographed by William Hobbs, allowing a kick or well-timed parry to disarm the attacker. A KNIFE FIGHT IS A GRAPPLING MATCH!!!!! Ask any correctional officer you know, as they have the most real-world experience in observing the aftermath of knife fights: A "real" knife fight, as opposed to a "reel" knife fight, is characterized by the knifer closing distance rapidly, crashing in, and thrusting and slashing repeatedly at close range. Your chance of surviving, either standing or on the ground, is going to be based on GETTING CONTROL OF THAT KNIFE ARM and either striking or getting a control hold (Kimura, Americana, Arm bar) what have you. Guess what? You are by definition in a grappling fight. You may get cut, no matter what your strategy, but you can keep going. The knifer will try to close range.

Answer "3-B": If possible, you want to be the guy who brought the gun to the knife fight. Even if you carry a firearm, you are going to need some skills to keep the pointy sharp thing from contacting you at conversational distance until you access your roscoe and start aiming for center mass. A gun alone isn't enough. FMA are very good in this case, or for knife/impact awareness in general. Steve Tarani has a good video/training program for this specific case. Even for the most fanatical handgunner, however, there will be times when you are unarmed. In your home, in countries/cities where gun ownership is not allowed, in correctional facilities, whether as a visitor or a resident. You NEED grappling skills.

Answer "3-C": If you think a knife is YOUR best defense on the ground, bear in mind that arriving officers / county attorneys / juries / judges WILL see the guy who used a knife against an unarmed man on the street as wrong, despite the circumstances. Bear in mind also that blood spray is non-discrimanate, and will likely wind up in your face / eyes / nose / mouth / exposed cuts. See my comments on blood-borne pathogens above. Ever stabbed another man? I haven't, but could see circumstances where I would (defense of my life or a loved one). Nevertheless, don't underestimate the psychological difficulty of gutting someone at close range, particularly in a less-than-life-or death circumstance, as well as the legal and tactical ramifications of choosing a knife as your primary defensive option, you steely-mercenary-of-death-tactical-folder-carrying-camoflage-wearing-army-surplus-store-haunting-thousand-meter-stare-wannabe-killer, you.
While it is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6, better still is to survive the 3 battlefields: Physical, Legal, and Psychological, in that order. Unless you want to perfect your knife technique against your cellie and his 5 friends over the next 7 years.

Answer "3-D": All you steely-eyed knifers, don't overestimate your ability to do anything you haven't practiced against a live, resisting opponent. In an interesting and informative post on this topic, forum member Lancifer7 wrote:

"On Saturdays, I train with Pikita-Tsirtsa (sp?) fighters. (For those unfamilar with the style, it is the MMa/Vale-Tudo of the knife & stickfighting world.) When training, we use folding training blades; when we grapple, we conceal them on our person as we normally would...and can pull them at any time. Here's the way it goes: The only safe time to pull a blade is when you have achieved back mount or mount; and if you think you can do that without BJJ or wrestling experience you = tard. Pull a blade in the guard = submission 9 out of 10 times...even with HIGHLY skilled knife-fighters. You feed the kimura, omo-lata and to a lesser extend the guillotine. We have foudn that even if you have side control or knee-on-stomach going for the blade results in your opponent escaping LONG before you finish the draw. Try it. You'll find that Lancifer = correct, and the only reason you think differently is inexperience, ignorance, and the most annoying of TMA traditions: unfounded "you-do-that-I-do-this" postulations."

Well said.


(BONUS SUB-STRAWMAN ARGUMENT 3.1): "The best defense against a knife in the street is a good pair of running shoes!"

Well, duh!

Answer 3.1-A: People who attack you with a knife typically don't attack Olympic track and field medallists, who are already laced up in their nikes, at one end of a running track. They will probably try to corner or pin you in so escape is not easy. You may be wearing shoes that are hard to run in. You may be on an slippery wet or icy surface. You may not be a good runner. You may be injured or out of breath. Your attacker may be a better runner than you are. You may be with someone you don't want to leave behind (e.g., your child, wife, or girlfriend) after you yell, "Feets, Do Your Stuff!" and make like a gazelle. In short, you may have to stay and fight. Other than that, no ****, Sherlock, try to get out of there as your first option.

[KnightSabre]

STANDARD WHEEZE #4) "And they have friends, too! BJJ can't deal with multiple opponents because his friends will step in and start kicking you in the head over and over and over and over and over as soon as you go to the ground!, like a carny roughneck work-gang taking turns pounding in a big top tentpeg!" (("Do you know what it's like to fall in the mud...and get kicked...in the head..by an IRON BOOT?" - Robert Stack in "Airplane!")) Answer "4-A": Maybe I am the one with friends.
Answer "4-B": I think the people who believe they have a valid stand-up street defense against multiple attackers saw the fight scene in the park in "Billy Jack" one time too many.

So all you stand-up guys, your solution to group attack is....What? Remaining standing and picking them off one at a time with a flurry of well-placed kicks? Eye jabs, pak sau, and biting?

Here is a base-level truth: Your chances of effectively fighting off a group of determined, coordinated attackers who outnumber you, without a weapon, are slim to none. By "determined and coordinated" I mean a cohesive group with a strong sense of self identity who are used to fighting together. That can mean a biker gang, a squad of Marines out on the town, bouncers who work together, a street gang, a rugby or football team, etc.

How about a group of undetermined and uncoordinated fighters? Your odds open up a bit. Most of you who will say you have beat multiple attackers probably met the latter group. We'll call them a "cluster group". I have seen several occasions where one guy backed down a larger cluster group by serious threat display. In all cases, the group were friends or acquantainces, some members maybe bigger than the lone guy, some of them probably good fighters, but none of them felt strongly enough about their group to risk taking one in the head for the team so everyone else could stomp the guy. No one in a cluster group wants to be the guy who gets teeth knocked out so everyone else can mob the guy. That video of the badass skateboarder smacking down and backing down the fratboys that was posted recently on the forum is a textbook example. Examples of cluster groups include guys who know each other from work or school going out for a drink, fans at a sporting event (Soccer hooligans perhaps being the exception), drink- or drug--impaired party goers, or a group in a lynch-mob mentality who don't know the other members well.

Laying a quick and serious hurting on someone (a broken elbow, strikes from the mount or knee on stomach), the kind that makes onlookers go "Yeeowch!", may back down a lot of guys, again, from the cluster group. A standing control hold or choke can make people back off until you can get to safety or someone breaks it up. A friend avoided a racially-motivated beat-down from some drunken frat party-goers by grabbing one in a standing rear-naked choke and backing up with him until he could sweep his legs and jump into a friend's car and get away. (This after taking down another drunk, getting mount, and getting in 3 or 4 punches before anyone reacted.) A Brazilian acquaintance who spent time in prison told me he regularly used the mata leao choke in a melee, grabbing his man and then (and he said this is very important...) getting his back to the wall where he wouldn't be blindsided. he'd break their balance, choke 'em out, then get to safety or grab another.


Answer "4-C": You may not need to go the ground. Most BJJ guys won't, on the street. But, as Eric Knauss of the Dog Brothers says, "Grappling happens. It just does." Even if you want to stay standing, and use the often taught (and valid) technique of "lining up your attackers", we live in a world cluttered with rubble. If you don't get taken down or knocked down, you are still likely to trip or fall. You better have a plan to get someone off you, ESPECIALLY if there are multiple attackers. See Answer 1-A above.

Well anywayz I thought it was pretty interesting.

[Merryprankster]

Good stuff.

It once again demonstrates that common sense and adapting to circumstances, regardless of style, is the primary "self-defense," technique.

I'd also point out that if you are familiar standing and on the ground, you are that much more adaptable, and hence, have a greater chance of success (survival).

I particularly like the knife vs. unarmed attacker point. All the knife defenses I have ever seen CENTER around gaining control of the offending hand. Interesting post by the one fellow.

Ap, guess what you and I are trying next?! :D

[jon]

Some of this makes no sence to me.
I also dont get the relevence of using the UFC as a reference for street encounters.


"STANDARD WHEEZE #1) "The ground is the last place you want to be in a street fight!"
"Answer "1-A": As Mark Tripp, a judoka and noted non-BJJ player once correctly pointed out, a STREET FIGHT is the last place you want to be in a street fight! Usually, you go to the ground in a street fight BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER! "
* BJJ is an art which chooses to perform the vast majority of its techniques from the ground. In a fight you are likely to do what you are best trained in and what has worked for you in the past. If your main skill set is ground fighting you will likely at some point take the fight to the ground even in pure reflex.

"In the real world, people trip (on curbs, curbstones, rocks, other combatants), slip (on mud, snow, water, because you wore slick-soled dress shoes on a date), try takedowns that seemed like a good idea at the time but didn't work out the way you planned (he grabs on to you as you try to sweep his legs out, great drunken ******* that he is, and you both go down), and, surprise surprise, you get thrown or knocked the **** down!"
* Fine and dandy. No one is advocating having *no* ground defence. Many people advocate that deliberately taking a street fight there is a poor idea. BJJ is an art which again seeks to take its opponent to the ground.

"Royce, Royler, Rickson, and Rorion do the same thing with monotonous regularity: clinch, takedown, establish mount, punch them until they roll and give their back, and either punch them in the back of the head some more for chuckles or choke them out. That's the progression."
* This is what im saying. The mindset is to take the opponent to the ground. If the argument is then that BJJ is aware that being on the ground is a poor idea in a 'streetfight' then why do there top practioners deliberately take all there fights there?

"Answer "1-B": Your job may require you to take someone down and handcuff them"
* Your job may be a milkman. This whole arguement is about BJJ on the street. I hardly think this is relevent.

"Answer "1-C": Most people on the street have ZERO ground fighting skills. While standing, they have a rudimentary game plan at best: ("I will strike the other person until they give up or are knocked out."
* This is a poor argument, i could also say that most people on the street dont know cma so that gives me an automatic huge advantage.

"Answer "1-D": The ground can be your friend."
* It *could* certainly. I think the argument is that going to the ground is 'generaly' a bad idea. Absolutes in fighting are retarded, ive seen enough people of good skill get knocked out by lucky punches to know that.

"Answer "1-E": And, in the unlikely event your opponent IS a skilled groundfighter (Olympic wrestler or Judoka, ex-Spetsnaz Sambo champion, renegade BJJ black belt, or what have you), you for **** sure better have some skills on the ground, as for sure he's going to take you there and you will not have much choice in the matter)."
* Again they could also be a ninja assasin and you darn well better know how to find them when they disappear and start throwing ninja stars at you:rolleyes: Again pointless arguement.

"(BONUS SUB-STRAWMAN ARGUMENT 1.1: "Yeah, try pulling guard / butt-scooting In The Street!" Yes, facing an opponent in the street bent on doing me harm, I will drop to my butt, scooting towards him like a dog with worms, my legs extending and waving about like the tentacles of a giant squid, trying desperately to entwine my legs around his hips and draw him into my maw-guard so that I can perform a complicated sweep. Sheesh. "
* So why then is so much time spent training like this? Could it be that the rule sets usualy used for fighting in these tournaments allow such practices? Again if you know such things are poor self defence then why bill it as such?

"(BONUS SUB-STRAWMAN ARGUMENT 1.2): "The ground ain't a mat - there is gravel and crack pipes and broken glass and hot asphalt! You don't want none of that!"
"Answer 1.2-A: All the more reason to be on top when you go to the ground. "
* Or not go there deliberately at all! Why say 'when' could it be that its where your 'planning' on going in the first place?

"Answer 1.2-B: Yeah, it hurts a little to do a takedown or scramble on gravel or asphalt. It hurts less than getting your ass kicked. Cowboy up!"
* Brilliant answer... Lets just avoid the issue entirely:rolleyes:


"STANDARD WHEEZE #2: "Real fights aren't pretty like on the mat. In The Street, people bite and claw and eye-gouge!"
"Answer "2-A": UFC 1: Gerard Gordeau tries to bite Royce Gracie's ear off. Guess who tapped, and if Royce hadn't been such a nice guy, would have had a broken elbow."
* If it had not been Royce and had been a less skilled exponent with only a few months training he may have lost his ear. I also fail to see why Gerard didnt simply bury his teeth and rip? Possibly becouse he was trying to make Royce 'let go'?

"Answer "2-B": I have you in a falling arm-bar (juji-gatame). You say you would just bite my leg, a la Bruce Lee vs. Bolo Yeung in "Enter the Dragon".
* I dont think anyone is advocating that biting is the first defence against a groundfighter. Still it doesnt take much of a stretch to see that becouse biting is illegal in most forms of wrestling then obviously it will develop without protecting against it either.

"Answer "2-C": You can train Keena Mutai all you want; if you don't have positional control, biting won't help you much."
* Biting does not require any particular body mechanic, postional control matters little. Its always a last resort for anyone.

"STANDARD WHEEZE #3: "They pull knives out, too! Big long pointy ones! You'll get stabbed if you try to pull guard in The Street!"
"Answer "3-A"
* Agree with most of this so ill leave it.

"Answer "3-B": If possible, you want to be the guy who brought the gun to the knife fight. Even if you carry a firearm, you are going to need some skills to keep the pointy sharp thing from contacting you at conversational distance until you access your roscoe and start aiming for center mass. A gun alone isn't enough. FMA are very good in this case, or for knife/impact awareness in general. Steve Tarani has a good video/training program for this specific case. Even for the most fanatical handgunner, however, there will be times when you are unarmed. In your home, in countries/cities where gun ownership is not allowed, in correctional facilities, whether as a visitor or a resident. You NEED grappling skills."
* How does this affect the argument at hand "You'll get stabbed if you try to pull guard in The Street!"?

[Former castleva]

I do not like readily supposed arguments to the direction of "all real fights go this way" in my opinion is closer to burying one´s head to sand than relying more on stand-up game/grappling game/multiple areas.
Actually most attacks will end up jointlocking,pinning,striking,kicking,weapon working,throwing,breaking,choking,whatever...lol lol lol. :) (Actually nearly as impossible to say as saying "well it ends up on the ground" pfffffhhh,Okay then.It could,or could not)
Standing back to see the grey.

What if we just assume that all legitimate arts are worthy,and there are more.No need to prove a point that way,which should not be a big deal anyway.Such ill-mannered arguments probably grew out of ignorance and lesser interest to look over one´s own circle.Not a primary concern?

[jon]

"Answer "3-C": If you think a knife is YOUR best defense on the ground, bear in mind that arriving officers / county attorneys / juries / judges WILL see the guy who used a knife against an unarmed man on the street as wrong, despite the circumstances."
* Again pointless, im not worried about attacking a BJJ guy with Knife when he is in the gaurd. The discussion again is on why going into the gaurd in the first place could be a poor idea when facing an armed assilant. IMHO anything that limits your movement and the ablity to get the hell out of there is a detriment. I would hardly consider grappling with the guy to be my top priority - infact a last resort.

Answer "3-D":
* Im not sure i get the relevence of his examples here, it would strike me that its simply becouse the guys he cites train groundfighting that this is also where they prefer to cut from.
Personaly i can generate a heck of a lot more power with a blade standing. I would also *if* i was going to attack someone have the blade in such a postion it couldnt be grabbed easily and could still be used to do nasty damage. If i want your wallet im hardly going to clinch mount and then intimidate you with my knife, ill simply hold it next to your neck, cut enough so you know im serious and then start making demands. Again this is self defence NOT DUELING.. At least according to the poster.

"(BONUS SUB-STRAWMAN ARGUMENT 3.1): "The best defense against a knife in the street is a good pair of running shoes!"
* Remind me again how this relates to the argument at hand.
'groundfighting vs a knifeweilder is a poor idea'


"STANDARD WHEEZE #4) "And they have friends, too! BJJ can't deal with multiple opponents because his friends will step in and start kicking you in the head over and over and over and over and over as soon as you go to the ground!,"
"Answer "4-A": Maybe I am the one with friends."
*Maybe your not, now what?

"Answer "4-B": I think the people who believe they have a valid stand-up street defense against multiple attackers saw the fight scene in the park in "Billy Jack" one time too many."
* Actualy its commen sence...
In a multiple situation your best option is get the heck to saftey right? Failing that at least try to seperate your attackers enough so your not dealing with them all at once.
How does being on the ground help in either of these basic truths?

"So all you stand-up guys, your solution to group attack is....What? Remaining standing and picking them off one at a time with a flurry of well-placed kicks? Eye jabs, pak sau, and biting? "
* Run or sperate that is the general plan.
When i say seperate i mean by any means possible, either simply taking one out and then running, pushing them into each other. Either way the last thing you want is them all comming in at once.

"Here is a base-level truth: Your chances of effectively fighting off a group of determined, coordinated attackers who outnumber you, without a weapon, are slim to none."
* Strange 'base level truth' considering its totaly subjective. Not to mention the numerous cases thoughout history of people fighting and beating multiple opponents. Heck armys do it all the time. Same concepts really - skill and intelligence vs brute force.
Again how does this affect the arguement 'groudfighting multiples is a poor idea'?

"Laying a quick and serious hurting on someone (a broken elbow, strikes from the mount or knee on stomach), the kind that makes onlookers go "Yeeowch!", may back down a lot of guys, again, from the cluster group. A standing control hold or choke can make people back off until you can get to safety or someone breaks it up. "
* Yeah or your attackers *could* be smart enough to figure out 'if we all rush it at once when hes occupied what the heck is he gonna do?'

"Answer "4-C": You may not need to go the ground. Most BJJ guys won't, on the street."
* I think my head is about to explode....
If going to the ground 'on the street' is a bad idea and most of your own practioners wont do it then why are you trying to justify the practice with this post?





Sorry im just bored.
I also just come from a different mindset and heck im allowed to disagree here and there.
I also realise this is a repost so i hope KnightSabre does not think im addressing him with my questions which are basicaly retorical.

[Royal Dragon]

So all you stand-up guys, your solution to group attack is....What? Remaining standing and picking them off one at a time with a flurry of well-placed kicks? Eye jabs, pak sau, and biting?

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You act like this is a bad thing?? Like kicks and punches are inefective?? I have been in multiple attacker fights, and yes I won. Basically I threw down, Kicked Punched threw them into one another and the only ones who ended up on the ground were my attackers. And they could not walk by the time they got there so they were no longer a threat.


>>Here is a base-level truth: Your chances of effectively fighting off a group of determined, coordinated attackers who outnumber you, without a weapon, are slim to none. By "determined and coordinated" I mean a cohesive group with a strong sense of self identity who are used to fighting together. That can mean a biker gang, a squad of Marines out on the town, bouncers who work together, a street gang, a rugby or football team, etc.

Reply]
No kidding. Going to the ground is even MORE Suicidal in these situations. In a case like this, a good stand up grapeling/throwing style like Taiji Quan or Shui Chiao combined with some trak and fied experiance is going to be your best bet.

You want to Aviod (footwork, footwork, footwork!!!)Hit, Lock, Throw and run. If you are going down anyway, your Bjj may help, but to be specially trained in an art that makes you go down on instinc would be a MAJOR detrimet in this situation.

Remember, footwork! footwork!! footwork!!! is what you really need here. This is something Bjj pretty much avoids as the whole scope of that art is to charge in and take you down so you can wrassle. Maybe if all you can do is Wrassle, you may think that it's a major selling point, but good footwork will keep you off the ground and is MUCH more important ESPECIALLY against a mob!!!

Reling on a Ground fighting background in a multiple opponent situation is like trying to make a Soup Sandwich...............and you can put THAT in your signature!!!!

[MA fanatic]

This had to have been one of the most brilliant posts I had ever read.

For those who fail to see why he included the UFC examples, that was to show that biting and eye gouging is not the answer against grapplers. Actually, he used fewer examples than he could have. In an NHB arena, fighters have tried biting, eye gouging and fishhooking. All didn't even make a grappler flinch. I'd also add that the last person you'd want to try such tactics against is a grappler. You don't want to fight a grappler who is permited to eye gouge, fish hook, use dangerous pressure points, or bite. The TMA guy will lose all the time.

JON: That "knife" example you didnt like, he was just responding to comments made by sime TMA guys. Some TMA guys did in fact state on the Underground Forum that their responce to BJJ would be a knife.

Otherwise, unless you actually role with a good grappler, you have no idea how useless 90% of the CMA's self defense techniques really are.
MA fanatic

[Merryprankster]

He's suggesting it's situationally dependent. He's not arguing that you should take your opponents down and finish them in all cases. He's pointing out that specific examples aren't very useful by providing OTHER specific examples and pointing out "hey, it could go this way too."

Groundfighting and grappling are necessary components to a self-defense program. You have to know how to get up and how to avoid getting on the ground in the first place.

I promise you that as a BJJ practitioner with a wrestling background, I stand a much better chance of dictating the range of the fight than most "stand-up," fighters. Sweeping a non-grappler is easier than breathing. Avoiding a non-grappler's takedown is even simpler. Dominating them in a clinch is REALLY simple.

I am, however, concerned about knives.

In sport BJJ, of course, this matters little :)

[sweaty_dog]

jon, could you outline some of the strong points of your own style?

[scotty1]

"Otherwise, unless you actually role with a good grappler, you have no idea how useless 90% of the CMA's self defense techniques really are"

Jesus, that's a bold statement. :)

I think some people argue extremes. In reality, its 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, I gotta go with scotty, MA Fanatic,

That's a bit over the top.

Royal's got the right idea, make a hole and bail. However, you're NOT going to avoid grappling in a multiple opponent scenario, and the better you are at dealing with it, the better your chances.

[BeiKongHui]

So do you get like Marlboro Miles or something for preaching the Gospel to the infidels? Perhaps saint Helio will save a seat for you at his right hand, eh?

[Cipher]

Originally posted by MA fanatic
........Otherwise, unless you actually role with a good grappler, you have no idea how useless 90% of the CMA's self defense techniques really are.
MA fanatic.......

I like reading a good post about anything weather it is grappling or stand up as long as I can learn something. But, to go on a forum at KUNGFUonline.com and say this is just as, if not more ignorant than any anti grapple crap I have seen. Not to mention that the actual statement is just as ignorant in itself alone.

[KC Elbows]

I personally will be glad once there are a million mma mcdojos and low quality schools so that I no longer will be dragged into arguments with people I wasn't arguing with in the first place.

Here's an idea. Ask me if I think ground work is important BEFORE you assume my answer, and I'll ask you if you think stand up is important before I assume your answer. Let's also confirm that, on the whole, your bjj has very little as far as stand up, and my six elbows has very little as far as ground. So, if you're doing stand up, you're hopefully getting it from somewhere other than bjj, and if I'm doing ground, I'm probably getting it from somewhere other than six elbows.

Here's another idea. If you don't like TMA, don't try and hide it and proselytize to me, because I will pick up on it. In return, I won't pretend to be all that interested in shoot fighting.

Also, as a general courtesy, I won't bring up eye gouges if you won't bring up 90% of fights going to the ground, since the FBI seem to think that, in fights occuring during FIELD WORK, only eighty percent of situations go to the ground, and by field work, they mean arresting and cuffing people, which would go to the ground much more often than other scenarios. The 90% number is unsubstantiated bunk, as is the omnipotence of eye gouges.

Here's another courtesy we could show each other: why don't we avoid making assumptions about each other's training? Wouldn't that be nice?

Another nice courtesy would be to admit the weaknesses of your art while we admit the weaknesses of ours. Oh, sorry, I forgot, bjj is superior. No matter who does it. And since I am apparently no longer allowed to argue that a person solely trained in bjj is likely to take the fight to the ground, which is not the best idea in MANY street scenarios, I guess bjj has no weaknesses. What a convenient reorienting of reality. It's all in what rose colored glasses you wear, I guess.

[Xebsball]

boring bjj thread on a chinese martial arts forum

[Merryprankster]

KC,

BJJ is superior :D

And there are a million MMA mcdojos. Not so many BJJ McDojos, but PLENTY of MMA Mcdojos.

Just find out about your local MMA scene and go see some D level fights (like the one I was in). It'll definitely show you the depth of MMA McDojo Depravity.

[KC Elbows]

Merry,
You've just warmed the ****les of my heart.

It also helps knowing that the censors will not allow me to divulge that my heart has ****les.

I'll have to check those fights out. I've seen some clips of fights that cracked me up. Guys just flying at each other without any sort of clue. Cracked me up, really. Again, warmed my ****les.:D

[rogue]

Don't agree with it all but some great points.

Eye gouges-OK, while I wasn't eye gouged I was poked/ bill geed in my eye, before losing most of my vision I countered by grabbing the guys arm and then took him down with a clothesline sweep. In other words without thinking I grappled. If I was smart I would have mounted the guy. Just thinking back to how my eyes felt makes me whince thinking about trying to fight the guy by striking.

Joint locks-One of the major reasons any lock fails is that a standing opponent can still move, usually away from the pain. While I can somewhat control a standing opponent while using a lock I will try and get him to the ground. So the writer is on the money there.

Grappling-One thing that I've learned is that if someone wants to grapple they stand a great chance of doing so. The judoka I worked out with could close and take down any of of strikers the group whenever he wanted. The best we did was postpone his takedown or make him pay something for it. But the outcome was the same. I've done the same thing in my tkd class even against black belts. If I want your back I'll get your back. And I'm not even trained as a grappler.

I think I need to find some inexpensive BJJ lessons.

:)

[Stranger]

"I think I need to find some inexpensive BJJ lessons." - rogue


You are going to have to fire up the Delorian and time travel back to the 80's. :D

[old jong]

Hey Rogue!
You forgot to put ''BJJ is souperior '' in your signature!...;)

[apoweyn]

Ap, guess what you and I are trying next?!

i'll bring the practice knives. you bring the fun.


stuart b.

[rogue]

You forgot to put ''BJJ is souperior '' in your signature!... Old school TKD is superior, but BJJ is a close second!:p

I hear ya Serps.

[Ford Prefect]

Knight Sabre is lying. Don't believe him.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Ohh, the ghost of the Good Grappler (TM) again?

It's so tiring, however clever this post was (and clever it was), it is still a boring and sterile "if you do this I do that" and "but if that then this" kinda thread.

Usefulness? 0

Why? Cause you might bring as many NHB or street fights example to back up your point, for real it will still remain only theory.
When shi@t happens in the streets, you're all alone. You can't be sure of anything...you can't be sure you'll stand up or be taken down or trip over some object. You can't be sure that these bites that didn't work in NHB won't save your life or will, you can't be sure that KO you perfomed during your last ring fight will come again or not, you can't be sure about NOTHING. It's useless to try to prove so hard what works and what doesn't in whatever context, because truth is when the fight arrives, it's all about you. None of the NHBs or mythical masters of the past will be there to save your butt, you can't even be sure that the theories of your style will work or not in that given moment of this given fight. The only thing sure about a fight is that either you'll walk/run away safe from it, either you'll be down. The rest is martial masturbation that won't help you shi@t out of any fight. Do what you have to survive, and that's that.
We TMA are trapped in our own myths, but so do the BJJ/MMA guys. When the moment of truth comes, it's all pointless. It's not your style that fights, it's you. So be your best, and hope to see another day. No UFC victory of your style or that famous undefeated gong fu master will help you out in the streets. It's all about you.

I still wonder though, why some BJJ/MMA guys want to criticize TMA so much...do they feel threatened somewhere? they must be...usually people trying hard to prove their points are unsure about it...
Nobody argues that water can be drunk...would you? Pointless, everybody knows the truth about the drinkability of water...
so if they REALLY didn't care about TMA, they'd let us live the fantasies 99% of them suppose we live, and wouldn't even bother replying...

I conclude they are not that sure...it seems to me that by trying that hard to prove their TMA point they reveal that they care more than they would admit...why do they react to our theories and practice they deem as deluded? If the mosquito didn't bite you, no need to scratch. Truth is, BJJ/MMA and TMA guys that are respectively confident and lucid about their system do not engage into such lenghty demonstration of superiority. They just do their thing. For them it works, and they believe in their art. Period. It's always the most unsure of believers who try to convert you...because deep inside they need approbation and support.

Oh yeah, maybe they want to enlighten us, poor deluded TMA guys...they want to teach us Martial Truth, for our own good in the streets, because they care...sorry, I don't buy that, I have come to learn that people are seldom that altruists.

Rant over...

[old jong]

Originally posted by MA fanatic
In an NHB arena, fighters have tried biting, eye gouging and fishhooking. All didn't even make a grappler flinch. ...

Well!..This kind of assumption makes me wonder...Why are grapplers immune to eye injuries? ...Do they have eyeballs of steel?...How many grappling lessons are required before my eyeballs become invulnerables?...Do grapplers have a secret ''iron eyes'' training?...

[Shadowboxer]

Hey, clear out your PM box. I tried to send you one but it was full.

[TaoBoy]

Sheesh!

It was a good post people and it was in response to others bagging BJJ. We do the same here when CMA gets a dissed. :rolleyes:

Honestly, anyone who hasn't worked out that having a complete game (stand-up, clinch, ground) is paramount is just plain ignorant.

Enough said.

[SifuAbel]

LOL Crimson , very true.

All this certainty is amazing. :rolleyes:

[Royal Dragon]

Is anyone else wondering why Ralek hasn't invaded this thread yet?

[TaoBoy]

Too busy polishing his Royce memorabilia?

[Shadow Dragon]

Personally, I liked what was posted.

Also liked the Post by Crimson Phoenix.
A fight is a fight and each fight is different and will need different skills to get out of it.
Winning 99 fights does not mean that you won't get killed in no 100.

All this:
My style does ....
Response to attack xyz is ...
is crap, pure ego and useless and actually more damaging than doing good.

Once you get into a real fight there is no time for planning, strategies or anything you simply react and do your stuff.

Maybe you get out on top or not, the chances are always 50/50.

Cheers.

[Waidan]

Well, I wouldn't call it 50/50. That's the point of training isn't it? Ya gotta stack the odds in your favor.

The original post is a classic. Some rationalization and misdirection, but overall a nice piece of work. Makes me want to roll around with sweaty men. CP's post was great also, but not nearly as funny ;)

People ask me why I train. What the heck do you need kung fu for in this day of rocket launchers and monster trucks? "Hey", I tell them, "it's better to have kung fu and not need it, than to need it and not have it." Makes sense to me, and the same could be said for ground fighting. Maybe you'll box the snot out of the guy, and it never goes to the ground. Maybe you slip on a banana peel and find the guy riding you like a mad, mad cowboy. Either way, knowing some ground fighting isn't going to hurt you.

But as CP said, if you're stoked with what you do, more power to ya. I couldn't agree more.

[Shadow Dragon]

Waidan.

I would still say 50/50 as there are too many unknown/possible factors in a real fight.

Even the best training cannot prepare you for everyhting.

If you talk in a pre-arranged fight or against a known assailant I might agree.

I have seen "untrained" fighters pull stunts and stuff that would/could neutralise the best fighting training.

The type of person I would hate the most to get involved in a street fight is as follows:
A slightly drunk upset blue collar w orker on a Friday Night.

Too many MA that train for SD think that their opponent will be the same as in the dojo or cage or even another trained fighter/stylist.

Cheers.

[Waidan]

Ah, for me it'd be a circus clown. They really freak me out.

[jon]

Originally posted by MA fanatic
For those who fail to see why he included the UFC examples, that was to show that biting and eye gouging is not the answer against grapplers. Actually, he used fewer examples than he could have. In an NHB arena, fighters have tried biting, eye gouging and fishhooking. All didn't even make a grappler flinch. I'd also add that the last person you'd want to try such tactics against is a grappler. You don't want to fight a grappler who is permited to eye gouge, fish hook, use dangerous pressure points, or bite. The TMA guy will lose all the time.

* Ok fine then lets use examples from sporting events to discribe streetfights.
Mike Tyson VS Evander Hollifield - ring a bell?
Tyson bit a chunck out of Hollifields ear IN THE CLINCH! What did Hollifield do? LET GO!!!
Then jumped around screaming in agony.
Hence obviously biting must be the best solution to any grappling situation.
This is my whole point, it CAN be used successfully and most 'sporting' geared grappling arts do not cater for defence against it effectively.
Royce is of course a brilliant fighter and i would take nothing away from his skill. All im saying is that this particular example wont always happen. Either will mine!


"JON: That "knife" example you didnt like, he was just responding to comments made by sime TMA guys. Some TMA guys did in fact state on the Underground Forum that their responce to BJJ would be a knife. "
* If thats the case then the TMA guys are idiots and simply looking for excuses. My agruement was and still is that going to the ground 'deliberately' against a 'possibly' armed assilant is a bad idea.

"Otherwise, unless you actually role with a good grappler, you have no idea how useless 90% of the CMA's self defense techniques really are."
* LOL i know your smarter than that so im just going to assume this was a bit of an exageration. Besides other posters have picked you on that already
Having said that i frequently play with grapplers, if my art was that useless i would have found the need to change by now.

[jon]

Originally posted by sweaty_dog
jon, could you outline some of the strong points of your own style?
* Your post worrys me a little.
If i have you right your trying to bait me?
Seriously i was not meaning any offence to the BJJ crowd. The original post is however quite offensive to the TMA crowd. My responses are only debating points - there not absolutes.

If you have read many of my posts you may know i have a healthy respect for BJJ and groundfighting in general. Infact i think that not being able to at least handle yourself down there is foolish.
My entire arguements have been centred around these points...

Deliberately going to the ground in a streetfight 'can' be a poor idea.
Deliberately going to the ground vs multiples 'is' a bad idea.
Deliberatley going to the ground vs armed assilants 'is' a bad idea.
Messing around on the pavement 'can' be dangerous for BOTH partys involved in the scuffle.


Having said that im sure you know what my art looks like. From memory you have a friend who practices it also - Baguazhang.

Some of its strong points.
Principal based rather than technqiue based making it addaptable.
Utalisation of the whole body in striking - ie good body mechanics.
Evasive footwork and stategic postioning.
Designed with fighting multiple opponents in mind as it was created for use within the Chinese Royal palaces by the bodygaurds.


Anyway i hope you havent taken offence to my post, its only i dont like this particual guys arguements. It says nothing for my respect for the art as a whole or the people who keep it real.
Ive said this many a time but my regular training partner trains in BJJ. Ive been submitted and pumbled by him enough times to not be stupid enough to say it doesnt work.
He is also not stupid enough to say that BJJ would be his approch in all situations - hence he cross trains. If BJJ was the be all and end all of 'self defence' then none of the BJJ practioners would need to do this. The fact is that BJJ is a highly specialised art which within its own boundarys excells. Take it out of those boundarys and you have to start implementing other things.
As KC cites this is the same with many of us traditionalists, im often looking to the grappling based arts for groundfighting skills as they are not really dealt with in the depth i might like in my own system. Its all a cirlce but you must call a spade a spade, i dont pretend that my internals work well on the ground and i dont like it when people pretend groundfighting works well for situations that should really demand being mobile.

[Volcano Admim]

Well, young grablers ones, chinese martial art attack disolve oponent in 2 seconds

[Ging Mo Fighter]

I would be more affraid of going up against my kungfu instructor with a knife than a gracie

as soon as they tried a take down, id shove that knife so far into his side, he wouldnt have much strength left

[rogue]

Well!..This kind of assumption makes me wonder...Why are grapplers immune to eye injuries? ...Do they have eyeballs of steel?...How many grappling lessons are required before my eyeballs become invulnerables?...Do grapplers have a secret ''iron eyes'' training?... OJ, nobody is immune from eye injuries, but if you get one what mode of fighting is going to work the best? If your sight is blurring do you think that trading blows will work? When your eye is hit the vision blurs in both eyes from the tears, without sight your balance will be effected, not to mention the distraction of the pain.
If I'm a grappler and have you on the ground and you hit my eye I don't have to see you to know where you are and I don't have to worry about balance. In other words the ground negates many of the things that makes an eye shot effective.

[Ging Mo Fighter]

I think grappling, and in particular, BJJ, is the best one vs one, ring style, fighting system.

Thats been well proven in the UFC series, being totally dominated by wrestlers, BJJ fighters, and in particular, submission fighters.

the reasons for this are

- one vs one fight (with no chance at all of anyone else throwing in a punch or getting involved)

- environmental (strictly a small ring - no weapons around, like chairs, knives, bottles - ie everything in the real world within 50 metres of anywhere)

- extremely well trained and conditioned fighters (ive seen alot of fights, and hardly any of them have been between well trained fighters)

these 3 reasons are going to be represented in the real world in about 0.2 - 0.3 percent of fights.

for the other 99.7% of fights, your going to be better off with a martial art that is more well rounded and tactical, instead of a grab and break martial art.

[Water Dragon]

You know what I find funny here?

1.
Most CMA guys here will acknowledge that...
If a Shuai Chiao guy gets you up in the air, the fights over.
If a Xing Yi guy takes your balance and starts pounding on you, the fights over.
A boxer who lands a good combo wins the fight.
A Thai boxer gets a straight on kick to the knee, fights over

But for some reason, a BJJ guy gets you on the ground, and you got a solid chance?

2.
Most BJJ guys here act like they are also experts in stand up. If you're gonna get me when we play your game, what makes you think I wont win when we play mine? I have a few months on the ground. You think a few months standing is gonna help you more than me?

If a system is solid, it's solid. As long as the training is solid, it comes down to the better man. If I get a solid throw on a BJJ guy fights over. If he gets me on the ground first, I'm toast. That's just the way it is.

[rogue]

I can address one of your points...

- environmental (strictly a small ring - no weapons around, like chairs, knives, bottles - ie everything in the real world within 50 metres of anywhere) Well if I'm facing a weapon there are two places to be really far away, preferably running, or really close in where I stand a chance of controlling the guy. You stay in arms or legs reach fighting range against a weapon and you are toast.

[Ging Mo Fighter]

i'd have to disagree there

rolling around on the ground, and your going to get cut up..

remember wrestling and indeed BJJ is a logic game on the ground, sometimes your oponent will be controlling you, thats just a fact of wrestling..

all you need to do is watch tito ortiz and frank shamrock fight, theyre both excellent ground fighters, and its all shamrock a few minutes, then all tito..

the guy with the knife would have cut the other mans throat the first chance he got in real life..

in a striking fight, the first attack, or combination can, and SHOULD end the fight.. in which case your oponent never has control, with a knife, or without

we train extensively against knives, swords, staffs, and short staffs, aswell as whips and tridents..
its suprising how easy it is to control someone with a knife from a distance when you are properly instructed how to..
and its been proven over 1000 or more years of chinese martial arts put into practise, in china, and on the mean streets of hong kong in particular

[MA fanatic]

The reason I said that pressure points, eye gouges, fish hooking, groin strikes, and biting are not answers to fighting a competend grappler, is because grapplers are aware of all these seemingly dirty tactics. A grappler is not an idiot who never saw an eye gouge, fish hook, or a bite. As a matter of fact, a good grappler can give you a good lesson in dirty tactics and cheap fighting tricks (which are great for the street). Grapplers are also quite knowledgeable in pressure points. Should these tactics be allowed in an NHB arena, I can safely say that a grappler will manuever himself into good position and procede to eye gouge you, bite you, fish hook you, and manipulate numerous pain points. The way to defeat a grappler is to train hard. Train full contact wiht full resistance. Grapple as much as you can and learn as much as possible about submissions, and even more important, learn about positioning on the ground. Practice take down and sprals. The more you know about grappling the better.
Once the training is done, then you can relly on some cheap tricks. Don't try them unless you're ready to weather a very painful storm.
MA fanatic

[sweaty_dog]

Water Dragon has a good point.

BJJ alone is not ideal for fighting multiple opponents, but there are strategies in it which are not often taught which can be used against more than one person. One is slipping a punch, taking the back and choking, using an opponent as a shield against others. SOME bjj schools train live against strikers with the intention of avoiding punches, clinching and subduing the opponent. This is fairly effective self defense training in my opinion; while it may involve going to ground it at least exposes us to real strikes and a resisting opponent. Most BJJ teachers are in favour of students learning a striking style as well as BJJ if they intend to be more than just "sport" BJJ players. However, sport BJJ players are capable of defending themselves.

jon, I was not trying to bait you any more than you were trying to bait me. I don't really understand how asking you to outline your perspective on the subject could be "worrying," I thought it was a fairly moderate response. IMO it is better to post a positive response about what you think is right than to criticise someone else's ways... I am not saying you are the only person on the internet to do this, it is almost universal! I think the original post was not particularly offensive to TMAs, it was pretty similar to a lot of posts I have seen defending TMAs against their critics. Whether this is the place for it is another matter.

I also disagree that BJJ always intend to take an opponent to the ground. BJJ intends to achieve a dominant position and/or a submission. It just happens to be that some of the most dominant positions are on the ground, and submissions are far easier to finish on the ground. The guard is not an ideal position to be in, but if someone puts you on your back it is far better than the alternative. The guard is also one of the few positions where a smaller and weaker fighter can win, even if he has been dominated on the feet. NO ONE in their right mind would pull guard on the street unless they were being beaten senseless already or were about to be taken down.

[rogue]

rolling around on the ground, and your going to get cut up.. Being in the sweet spot of a knife will get you cut even quicker.


the guy with the knife would have cut the other mans throat the first chance he got in real life. He also would have stabbed him in the back but let's not compare two guys in the ring with the street.


in a striking fight, the first attack, or combination can, and SHOULD end the fight.. in which case your oponent never has control, with a knife, or without Good luck.


we train extensively against knives, swords, staffs, and short staffs, aswell as whips and tridents..
its suprising how easy it is to control someone with a knife from a distance when you are properly instructed how to..How? If the blade is between 4 and 12 inches how do you control it from a distance?


and its been proven over 1000 or more years of chinese martial arts put into practise, in china, and on the mean streets of hong kong in particular What practice?

[tnwingtsun]

Well said.

Knock,Knock,is BJJ turning into a cult?

I smell a fish.

Most plans go out the window when the s-h-i-t hits the fan.

[African Tiger]

Grapplers are also quite knowledgeable in pressure points

Say what, MA fanatic? Since when is pressure point fighting part of the BJJ curriculum? And I'm not talking MMA artists.

Me personally - I'm not worried about some drunken maniac who knows BJJ or any Martial Art grappling. If these "artists" have any honor, they wouldn't go around drinking themselves into a stupor and attacking people. And we all remember what happened to the playground bully when we finally stood up to him, don't we?

This is strictly the realm of a HS or collegiate wrestler who had too much to drink, or some Al Bundy-type HS superstar who now works at the local Dairy Queen. Long story short - these people usually do not know how to fight, but they certainly love pushing their "supposed" weight around. These people usually get their ases handed to them by people like me.

As far as us "weak CMA's", most of us are honorable enough to walk away from a situation. But in the event we can't...well, how you gonna wrestle someone to the ground when you can't get your hands on him?

I'm certainly not dissing BJJ - like anything else, it has it's place. In class, I use some of the holds as finishers, after I've softened my opponent with strikes. But let's face facts, you are not going to be able to choke out a struggling opponent fast enough to deal with his four friends afterward.

For that matter, I certainly wouldn't want to try 4-5 guys with my kung fu...although Ron Van Cleef (chinese goju) took on 6 guys outside a bar and won. :cool:

So the lesson is...whoever uses their art the fastest is superior. And whoever drinks themselves into a stupor and attacks people is inferior.

[Xebsball]

LOL @ grapplers pressure point knowledge

[jungle-mania]

Xebsball: LOL @ grapplers pressure point knowledge

Apparently, you never sparred with a grappler, when you are on the ground, it is probably one of the best time to use pressure point rather than having your opponent dancing around you and jabbing your head. So here is me LOL @ you. Pressure points and grappling works really well.

[jon]

sweaty_dog

Please excuse the quotes :)

"jon, I was not trying to bait you any more than you were trying to bait me. I don't really understand how asking you to outline your perspective on the subject could be "worrying," I thought it was a fairly moderate response."
* My appologys i missunderstood you. I was kind of under the assumption you where hoping for me to put forward what my art would do so you could pick it to peices - you will have to excuse my paranoia.

"IMO it is better to post a positive response about what you think is right than to criticise someone else's ways... I am not saying you are the only person on the internet to do this, it is almost universal!"
* Fair call, i did not mean for my post to come accross as a negative tyrade against BJJ. I was only trying to rebutt some points which i did not see the validity to in the posted piece.

"I think the original post was not particularly offensive to TMAs, it was pretty similar to a lot of posts I have seen defending TMAs against their critics. Whether this is the place for it is another matter."
* KC Elbows summed this up perfectly in his post, this whole piece trys to make out that us crazy TMA have no idea about what BJJ does and yet wont shut up. Im not trying to blame anyone for style vs style arguements but i think this a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black.

"I also disagree that BJJ always intend to take an opponent to the ground. BJJ intends to achieve a dominant position and/or a submission. It just happens to be that some of the most dominant positions are on the ground, and submissions are far easier to finish on the ground."
* Nicely said, im a bit of a fool for trying to state what another arts mindset is when i dont even practice it:rolleyes: I also like your discription of your art.

"The guard is not an ideal position to be in, but if someone puts you on your back it is far better than the alternative."
* Agreed, again i was never trying to avocate a total lack of skill on the ground. Only that going there 'on purpose' on the street is usualy not a great idea.

"The guard is also one of the few positions where a smaller and weaker fighter can win, even if he has been dominated on the feet. NO ONE in their right mind would pull guard on the street unless they were being beaten senseless already or were about to be taken down."
* Cant really disagree with you hear either, lol this is not turing out to me much of a debate. Come to think of it, im fairly sure this is the most polite groundfighting vs standup thread ive yet seen.
Must be the total lack of Ralek influence.
We need one of those picks of Royce vs Delusia posted or something :p

[Ging Mo Fighter]

this is the stupidest conversation ever

i cant beleive someone can actually say that grappling someone with a knife is a good idea

your insane

[Ging Mo Fighter]

and by that i mean a traditional BJJ "takedown"
not a manipulation, or grapple which leads the defender to still remain standing

[Asia]

Apparently, you never sparred with a grappler, when you are on the ground, it is probably one of the best time to use pressure point rather than having your opponent dancing around you and jabbing your head. So here is me LOL @ you. Pressure points and grappling works really well.

He is actualy correct, except I do not advocate much ground grappling. Also remember that Jujutsu is a grappling art with kyusho which work very well. Koppo which is considered the predecessor of JJ contains Kyusho as well as bone setting methods.

BJJ get the bad name mainly from the propaganda pushed by it practioners (practing my alliterations) The techniques are sound but I don't agree with the fighting veiw points. If the Gracies didn't push the 'BJJ is invincible'/'BJJ is unbeatable' (which I wonder how the hell they forgot about their past defeats. Even Rickson admited he lost his first match) then we wouldn't have such a problem with it. Throw in the BJJ Bandwagon members (Ralek anyone) and you have something pple love to hate.

[yenhoi]

style vs style or even range vs range arguments are very odd :rolleyes:

People fight, not styles. people train, not styles.

I agree with the original poster of the original thread, he was responding to silly estoic types who attack bjj, ground-fighting, and grappling range and techniques in general.

MA fanatic said it best when he said to "train hard" - best advice ever on any MA forum.

[Merryprankster]

Yenhoi,

I agree with the assessment you put out. I think the point of the original poster was to clear up/respond to some of the common stupidity people fling at BJJ (the buttscoot/guard pull/go to ground/weapons/multiple opponents stuff.)

If somebody here had posted something to clear up/respond to the common stupidity flung at TCMA (unrealistic/needlessly complex/forms dancing/no grappling worth a crap/never sparring-hippies) everybody would be singing his praises and offering him beer and virgins.

Get a grip and start evaluating things like this on content, not delivery. Easily the biggest gripe with this thread in particular.

FWIW, Ging Mo doesn't understand fights, especially weapons, or doesn't care to understand.

To avoid getting cut, your best bet is to CONTROL THE KNIFE ARM. If you don't you'll get cut. There isn't a knife fighter on the planet that expects to walk out of a fight without a cut. Your chances of not sustaining a life-altering injury are far greater if you can control the knife arm. That's grappling. Priority one is running the hell away. Priority two is getting that knife out of his hand at any non-lethal cost. Why?

For one simple reason you don't seem to get: Fights RARELY end with the first shot or flurry. Most people don't get knocked out with one shot or flurry, most people aren't incapacitated immediately. One punch/one flurry/one throw altercations are rare enough that even having that idea is anathematic to survival. Follow-up, follow-up, follow-up is a survivor's mantra, and when the attacker has a knife that means everything follows up to getting that knife away because every second he has it is one more second to get stuck.

Now me, I'm just a sport BJJ guy doing stuff for the love of the game. I ain't no street fighter and don't pretend to be doing self-defense. But poke around with some of the Escrima guys. See what they have to say about how to engage a knife with empty hands.

[tnwingtsun]

Hmmmmm.......


Beer and virgins,nice one to start the day off with.:D

[Stranger]

Originally posted by African Tiger

This is strictly the realm of a HS or collegiate wrestler who had too much to drink, or some Al Bundy-type HS superstar who now works at the local Dairy Queen. Long story short - these people usually do not know how to fight, but they certainly love pushing their "supposed" weight around. These people usually get their ases handed to them by people like me.



Be wary of the "Al Bundy-type"; Ed O'Neil is a longtime practitioner of BJJ. :D

[rogue]

For that matter, I certainly wouldn't want to try 4-5 guys with my kung fu...although Ron Van Cleef (chinese goju) took on 6 guys outside a bar and won. And he was tapped out in seconds by Royce Gracie in UFC 4.


i cant beleive someone can actually say that grappling someone with a knife is a good idea Fighting unarmed against a knife is never a good idea. I don't know how you guys train against so many weapons but have such a limited view. If for some reason I can't run and I have to fight someone with a knife I need to control that person. The best way to control someone is to take away their mobility. The best place to do that is on the ground. I've seen this tactic used in JJJ, BJJ, Judo, TKD, Aikido,Kali and Okinawan karate. Maybe you guys just don't like to get your clothes dirty.:p

[Ford Prefect]

LOL @ what this thread has become! The funny thing is I'm sure you all seem like reasonable people in person, so nobody would know you harbor these deranged thoughts. Haha!

[FatherDog]

When I'm on top of someone, I'm grinding my elbow/forearm into the side of their jaw to keep them down and move them in the direction I want. Is that not a pressure point?

When I'm in side-body, I'm grinding an elbow into the solar plexus to cause their arm to move in a certain way. Is that not a pressure point?

When I'm in a close clinch, I'm grinding my chin into their eyesocket to move their head to the side. Is that not a pressure point?

When I'm in someone's guard, in addition to shifting my hips, I'm shooting my elbow into the inside of their thigh, near the femoral artery, to force them to move their leg in a certain way. Is that not a pressure point?

Just because grapplers tend to use pressure points differently than strikers, please don't assume that they are not part of the grapplers curriculum.

[ewallace]

i cant beleive someone can actually say that grappling someone with a knife is a good idea
Standing in the same area or attempting the majority of knife defenses I've seen are just as if not more dangerous than rolling around with one. If a knife is in play chances are very high that you will get cut whether you are on the ground or on your feet.

And if it comes to a clinch or goes to the ground and you are the one with the knife and the one without grappling skills, you will MOST likely be controlled. To assume that you will just sink a knife in somebody is..well...just reference Apoweyn's sig.

My view is that grappling is not the answer to all problems fighting. But to be a complete fighter...let's all say this together..."you must be able to fight at all ranges". I am mystified by those who are serious about their training and then say "If I get taken down I know that I am screwed". To me that just goes against a fighters mentality and makes me wonder why the hell they are training in the first place. Even field goal kickers in football have to know how to tackle when the kick is blocked and picked up by the other team.

Does this mean drop everything and turn to BJJ? No it doesn't. But to ignore the issue and think that superior footwork or stances or eye pokes can defeat a banana peel or mean patch of ice is ignorant.

Is Rickson Gracie going to attack you as you are headed toward your car at night? No. But someone who does attack you is going to have a lot of confidence in his/her/it's abilities to attack you. Probably won't be trained in a formal style, but will most likely be well versed in backyard brawling, which usually does end up on the ground. My DNA is availble for sampling on a sidewalk somewhere in Bollingbrook, IL because I laughed at the thought of a scholastic wrestler taking me down. I knew what he was going to try and do. He still did it. And I kissed pavement for my ignorance.

The only statistic that matters to me is that 100% of street fights suck if you are involved in them.

[Nevermind]

Actually, I saw the fight between Ron Van Clief and Royce Gracie. It lasted a lot longer than a few seconds. If I am not mistaken, I do believe it took Royce about 4 minutes to tap out Ron. As a side note, if you have seen the fight, did you notice Taimak (Bruce Leroy from the Last Dragon) in Ron's corner cheering him on? Hmm.......Bruce Leroy versus Royce. Now there's a fight I'd pay to see. (o:

[Ford Prefect]

Nevermind,

Actually, he got the fight on the ground in the first few seconds of the fight. He quickly mounted and started punch RVC. He could have taken RVC's arm at any time but Royce wanted the choke, so he just kept dinging RVC until he rolled over. In other words, he just toyed with him until RVC rolled over knowing the inevitable would happen.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by FatherDog
When I'm on top of someone, I'm grinding my elbow/forearm into the side of their jaw to keep them down and move them in the direction I want. Is that not a pressure point?

When I'm in side-body, I'm grinding an elbow into the solar plexus to cause their arm to move in a certain way. Is that not a pressure point?

When I'm in a close clinch, I'm grinding my chin into their eyesocket to move their head to the side. Is that not a pressure point?

When I'm in someone's guard, in addition to shifting my hips, I'm shooting my elbow into the inside of their thigh, near the femoral artery, to force them to move their leg in a certain way. Is that not a pressure point?

Just because grapplers tend to use pressure points differently than strikers, please don't assume that they are not part of the grapplers curriculum.

very true.

[Water Dragon]

Royce would choke Ron Van Clief.

Oh! That's right. Royce DID choke Ron Van Clief.

[SevenStar]

Royce would choke you for forgetting that he choked Van Clief

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, well, Danny Bonaducci would give Royce the Eagle Claw.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
Ohh, the ghost of the Good Grappler (TM) again?
Oh yeah, maybe they want to enlighten us, poor deluded TMA guys...they want to teach us Martial Truth, for our own good in the streets, because they care...sorry, I don't buy that, I have come to learn that people are seldom that altruists.

Rant over...

Ah-ha! There's the rub. Altruism is definitely a rarity, especially amongst business types. MMAs and NHB, as well as every style of MA, is mostly about $$$. What's a good pitch for this "business"? How about the same line modified over years: "We have the bestest product, and you need to get you some of it! Here's our proof..."

Out of all the responses CPs was the most honest and insightful. If you didn't play American football, rugby, or wrestle with your bro(s) for years, ya' might need to introduce yourself to a grappling art that addresses this. Otherwise understand how to get superior standing angles and how to fight standing in-close. If you want to learn submissions, JUST IN CASE, it can't hurt.

BTW, mounting someone or getting a knee on stomach mount ain't a new thing. I saw high school fights in the early 80s where cats did this stuff on a regular basis. I knew about this stuff since I was 12. I grew up in a different place though. Also these were exclusively one-on-one deals; If he has homeys or you got some boys, it's best to stay on all twos. That's your best base for overall maneuverability, in a squab'.

Yes, you can learn to fight multiple opponents effectively, especially if you're not smothered straight-off. I doubt you'll have to worry about an antagonist with Olympic-level grappling skills. If that happens then you are probably ass-out! Hell, I wouldn't want to squab with Roy Jones, Jr. even if I was a BB in BJJ or Kodokan Judo. World class athletes are another thing altogether.

Knives. Hmmm, I grew up in the Philippines, and saw knives, bottles, ice-picks, masonry bricks and guns used as weapons. I've seen an "altercation" where a guy misses with a punch to the face, the opponent shoots for a takedown, and the guy who threw the punch sprawls and controls his head. The sprawler then reached into his front pocket and pulled out a long-arsed balisong, which he flips open and puts into dudes back. Ouch!!! Had to run-away real quick. This was a butterfly knife, which you have to flip open or unfold. That guy's analogy on the UG was faulty. You can tell he's never been/seen a real knife fight. Give peeps I grew up around a knife, and without a weapon (or even with one), the opponent is finished. I mean done...

It's funny to hear all these people talk about FMAs like they know the real. I grew up there. I am part Filipino. I have many peeps and fam' that still live, and grew up there. I had "fraternity" acquaintances, and I'll tell you they'd laugh at all the claims made by the "FMA" guys. They know Americans are always looking for that "secret" fighting tech, and are more than willing to oblige. I've said it before and I'll say it again, in the Philippines they are proud of their heritage, but they don't consider their MAs (Kino Mutai, Kali, whatver) as the best, real fighting styles out there. Most of the real tuff cats did Shorin Ryu, Boxing, Muay Thai or even Kuntaw. I can remember thinking how ridiculous it was for someone to learn to fight, almost exclusively, with 2 sticks. Give me 2 ironwood, mahogany, or ebony sticks and I'll clock your unarmed arse, hahaha!

What's "REALLY GOOD?!", as the kids now say. Reality is a subjective, relative thing I guess... Ba-bye...

[SifuAbel]

Funny, I thought this group outgrew the "My takedowns are unstoppable" mentality a while ago, guess I was wrong. carry on.

[old jong]

Perpetual motion was invented ! ;) here

[David Jamieson]

Hey, do any of you guys remember your first street fight?
I was reading this and it made me think about the first time I was in a streetfight. It also made me think about the second, the third and...I started typing.

They were all different and actually there were two one on ones that went to the ground for me. In the first case we were surrounded by a whole lot of fellow high schoolers but nobody stepped in while we went at it. It went to ground, I pulled a hockey jerk and it ended in submission. His.

A few of the guys who were watching got riled up, had a very short fist fight while the guy I was fighting and I got up, brushed off and went our own ways.

The second was 3 or 4 years later. Also went to the ground. Also ended in submission. His. He was so mad he tried to tackle me. As his head came in, it was low and hit me in the stomach. My body crumpled over his back as he charged forward. I wrapped my arms around his back and fell to my butt from his forward momentum.

I had him with his neck bent forward against my chest while I gripped from around his back, sitting straight up with my grasped hands thumb knucks dug into his solar plexus.

He couldn't do anything. His brother came out of the house and seeing that all I was doing was restraining him, asked me to let him go. He didn't attack me. I let him go and he started swinging again. His brother grabbed him at this point and I sckeedaddled out of there while grabby threw fistfulls of pebbles at me.

Every other streetfight I've been in, which is not a lot, but not a few, has been stand up chaos with a whole lotta sucker strikes happening. Pretty brutal and ugly stuff. Very little "style".

On the street, you have an advantage if you train, seriously train a martial art. Any martial art.

Anyway, that's only my experience.

peace

[African Tiger]

but is there anyone here besides Ralek who doesn't know that Ron Van Clief was IN HIS 50's WHEN HE FOUGHT A MAN NEARLY 1/2 HIS AGE? IN A SPORT FIGHT? IN A RING? WEARING GI'S AND ****?

RVC as you so lovingly have named him, defended himself against (actually as memory serves) six attackers, using only stand-up techniques. Can you do that? Do you have that kind of confidence in your art?

I guarantee Royce would have gotten his head pounded into the sidewalk, if he had faced the same situation - at any age, so your point is so moot.

It seems like you grapplers are so in love with anything UFC or Gracie, you fail to see that certain circumstances call for certain techniques. Nobody bothered to argue whether or not he did it or didn't, but everybody living vicariously through the Gracies brought up UFC 4.

So, let's drop the hypotheticals, comparisons to unrealistic UFC/NHB contests, and go back to constructive arguments...before Ralek gets into this discussion :rolleyes:

[African Tiger]

Stranger - having met Ed O'Neill (Uh, I'm in the business, remember?), I'm pretty sure he's not going around getting into drunken beer brawls with 20 year olds.

He's a celebrity after all, and has more to lose than a just a fight.

[Mr Punch]

I thought it was a good article. I also thought Kung Lek's response was good.

I agree with anyone who says that the ONLY response to a knife attack if you can't get away is to grapple. Maybe you need to set this up with a strike or two, and maybe this'll be lucky enough to KO him, but I wouldn't bet my life on it!

In fact if you don't agree, you're a moron! How's that for understanding!? WTF are you gonna do, trade blows with him (when he has a hard, sharp long pointy thing and you, er, don't), or knock him out with one blow/combo (while he's standing there with his chin stuck out!). I'm proud of my striking skills, but I'm also proud of my breathing skills.

I would probably argue (at risk of talking nonsense...!) also that if you are cut while you are striking, the chance of greater damage is probably greater, as it is two opposing forces instead of one.

Also, as grappling involves a range close enough to use most of the surface area of your body as part of the delivery method of the technique, whereas striking requires only one out of four limbs as the delivery method, the damage you will get to your muscle tissue is proportionally more incapacitating to a striker than to a grappler... isn't it?

Omega's assessment of real-life situations seems a lot more on the nail than the original article... which only leads me to agree with ewallace's stat!!!

[Merryprankster]

African Tiger.....

Missing the POINT! What does it take around here?

Let me do a brief outline:

1. everybody gives props to RVC for stepping in the ring at his age.

2. Nobody thinks he can't kick some ass.

3. Nobody is even taking anything away from him.

4. It's OBVIOUS he can throw down since he managed to stay safe against 6 attackers.

What WD's point was, is this, since I have to spell it out:

Everybody on this board gives certain arts their due: If a SC man throws you, you're probably toast. If you let a boxer BOX you, you're in trouble. If you let a MT guy start whacking you with roundkicks to the leg and your body isn't conditioned to take the punishment, you're probably in for a bad day. If a Xing Yi guy takes your balance and starts pounding on you, he's goint to KEEP pounding you.

Put shortly, if you let the practitioners of these arts do what they are good at they will probably knock you silly. Nobody seems to have a problem with it.

Now, what Waterdragon wants to know is one simple thing:

WHY WILL PEOPLE HERE NOT ADMIT THAT IF A BJJer GETS YOU ON THE GROUND, YOU'RE IN FOR IT?! Add wrestlers and Judoka to that list too. Oh, and Sambo-ists. Instead they come up with a million stupid retorts and "defenses," that will get them beat FASTER by somebody who knows even the rudiments of groundwork.

I admit that if I were to fight any one of you guys and couldn't be on the ground then I would probably lose, and do so badly. Why is it so hard to admit the flip side?

Oh wait, I know--it's the DESPERATE desire for people who are true believers to justify what they do. The NEED to believe you've discovered the complete fighting art... the HOLY GRAIL of martial arts. "Reality is staring me in the face--there are some things I'm learning to be good at and some things we're not covering to any great extent, but the stuff in that chalice sure looks tasty!!!"

Sip from that cup baby! That way, you can stay immortal.




in your own mind.
:rolleyes:

[MA fanatic]

Ahh...the Ron Van Clief was brought to the forum. lol Well, I have to say that i have all the respect in the world for the guy. First of all, he is one of the only masters who actually had the nerve to test himself in an NHB ring. In his youth he won most tournaments that were out there, now he wanted to try a form of fighting he had not had the chance to try in his prime. He also put his name, his style and reputation on the line. Yet, he didn't care. He saw martial arts for what they really are. Pure honesty in motion. I think by fighting in the UFC, Van Clief showed himself as martial artist first, and everything else second. NO other master had stepped into the Octagon putting so much on the line. I should also say, that at his age he looked spectacular. He looked like he was in better shape than must young UFC fighters. Royce had nothing but respect for Van Clief, so he didn't throw punches, but through palm strikes. He also didn't go for arm locks fearing that Van Clief would not tap in time. Van Clief was nothing but a great sport. After his loss, he raised Royce's hand, admitted that he had some grappling to learn, and even became a commisioner for the UFC. Him and the Gracie family actually became friends. Since Van Clief polished up on some grappling and now I'm sure is a better fighter for it. I think more CMA masters should be like Van Clief. The result of that fight really never mattered in my eyes. Van Clief's passion for the martial arts and desire to test his skill is something to be admired.

As for pressure points and grappling, you guys will be surprised at some pressure point manipulations good grapplers know.

Merry Prankster, great posts dude.
MA fanatic

[tnwingtsun]

Part.1 Of my rebut to your belie/in congruence.

"A KNIFE FIGHT IS A GRAPPLING MATCH!!!!! Ask any correctional officer you know, as they have the most real-world experience in observing the aftermath of knife fights: A "real" knife fight, as opposed to a "reel" knife fight, is characterized by the knifer closing distance rapidly, crashing in, and thrusting and slashing repeatedly at close range. Your chance of surviving, either standing or on the ground, is going to be based on GETTING CONTROL OF THAT KNIFE ARM and either striking or getting a control hold"

Well you just asked a former Corrections Officer and a member
of the SORT Team,cons reffered to us as the "Goon Squad".
Shield man up front and a stacked bum rush to take his arse down,thats the submission part of the job against a resident
with a shank if he is isolated,if not,well you do the math.

"Your chance of surviving, either standing or on the ground, is going to be based on GETTING CONTROL OF THAT KNIFE ARM"

One on one if you chase that knife arm you're setting yourself to be killed ,no two ways about it.
If the guy is a(well) trained knifefighter he/she is well aware that if you don't run,he's got you cornered,he's one step ahed of you,he knows that your only hope is to close the distance
and chase his knife hand while he turns you into pork chops.


"and either striking or getting a control hold"

Good luck,I've been stabbed(with riot gear/knife vest on) at least
10-15 times??
And came out without a scratch because I was geared up and with my team.
I agree that if you're in a situation where theres no escape
the above quote applies along with some good old use of terrain,or any object before the range is closed.


"A KNIFE FIGHT IS A GRAPPLING MATCH!!!!!

No,that is a boneheaded approach,I will agree that a knife fight
can have the grappling element to it but there are SO many variables in any fight that kind of tunnel visioned gospel is not worth betting the ranch on,to each his own but not me,I've seen one too many bleed out quick.

I LIKE a good deal of what you quoted,although I do not agree
with all of it.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Not to mention than ANY good knife fighter won't hold his knife in the lead hand and wave it obviously in front of you like they do in the movies. The knife will rather stay in the back hand, well concealed and pressed along the body to minimize any disarming attempt. When a serious knife fighter goes in for the cut, it is done after making sure there will be minimal retaliation or disarm attempt because he got you busy with his lead hand first (these guys know their trapping methods).
Also, for a knife fighter, who got the weapon and hence all his time to play with you, any target can be taunted...you let your hands wander too much, they get cuts...even if it's one finger, your palm...the guy in front got all his time, every cut is a step towards victory, whereas as the victim it is a step towards the cliff...
IMHO...and from what I have been shown by guys who really knew what a knife fight was (and not the common bad boys movies fantasies).

[Budokan]

Jeez. I'm gone for 3 friggin' days to visit my in-laws and when I come back everyone here is embroiled in another t*tty-twisting "BJJ is superior" thread. :rolleyes:

When will you d*ck-sneezes ever learn? BJJ IS superior. When confronted with a grappler the rest of us should just throw up our hands in surrender and wet our panties while screaming hysterically like Halle Berry at the last Oscars.

[guohuen]

Four biggest lies.
1. That should work
2. I'm here to help
3. The checks in the mail
4. I promise not to

[rogue]

Not to mention than ANY good knife fighter won't hold his knife in the lead hand and wave it obviously in front of you like they do in the movies. Now we have the "good knife fighter" to go along with the "good grappler".:D Not picking on you Crimson I just thought it was funny.

Something I've learned from a SF friend is that there is no such thing as a knife fighter, at least not in his profession as we think about them. A good knife man will discretely stick it in your gut as he walks past or get you from behind or from below. He will not pull a knife to fight someone. As he put it to me after I asked if he could knife fight, "No, but I can fight with a knife". The idea being that the knife is just something that went along with his h2h skills and not something that existed on it's own.

[tnwingtsun]

"while screaming hysterically like Halle Berry at the last Oscars."

HEY!

If I looked like Halle Berry I'd never leave the house.

I'd stay home and train with myself all the time.

[dre]

I disagree with #3. . .

I've worked knife techniques with Kungfu ,Aikido and TKD ppl. and I have this to say. . . usually the knife guy wins out when allowed to free style, I am usually said knife guy.

Furthermore. . . in those movies or in fencing or whatever weapon fight you are talking about , they stand at range becuase it is the safest for both of them to stand at that range , for someone (especially unarmed) to stand within that range opens the person up to gigantic vulnerability.

In other words. . You want to move into my range? Yes, please do I want you to. Why? Becuase you are completly vulerable to me killing you.

Always aim for your closest target. Is only your fist in range? Go for it? Are your legs open? Drop down and strike.

It's not an issue of ME wanting range, it's an issue or you NEEDING range.

(end rant)

[Crimson Phoenix]

LOL Rogue, don't worry, I'm kinda used to you f@cking with me and the French heheheheh
I do not called on the good knife fighter like I call on the good grappler (you know, the guy who can do everything better than anyone, dim mak included heheheh)...rather I was pointing out how a serious knife fighter uses strategies that leave you very little chances to grapple safely...or to strike safely as well, but striking keeps that advantage that you can stay at a distance, whereas by definition to grapple you have to close in like Dre pointed out (BAD IDEA).

There's a big difference between the guy who waves the knife in front of you to impress you or because he seen too many movies, and the guy who keeps his knife in the back, against his body, out of reach. It's harder to defang the snake if you have to fight the tail off first...

[ShaolinTiger00]

When will you d*ck-sneezes ever learn? BJJ IS superior. When confronted with a grappler the rest of us should just throw up our hands in surrender and wet our panties while screaming hysterically like Halle Berry at the last Oscars.

Finally a voice of reason and open-mindedness. Thank god you arrived. they were starting to .... agrue..

[KC Elbows]

"WHY WILL PEOPLE HERE NOT ADMIT THAT IF A BJJer GETS YOU ON THE GROUND, YOU'RE IN FOR IT?! Add wrestlers and Judoka to that list too. Oh, and Sambo-ists. Instead they come up with a million stupid retorts and "defenses," that will get them beat FASTER by somebody who knows even the rudiments of groundwork."

What people? And what's it? Which here? Who're they? You as in me, or some other you? Are them also they, or is they another group only marginally related, if at all related, to them? Is faster different than FASTER? I'm thinking that your first sentence, all in caps, should be read in the voice of that guy from the The Princess Bride who says 'inconthievable', is this right? And you say to add something to some list, but you'd only named bjj. Is that really a list? Shouldn't you(me?) make a list, and then add all three names to it? And did you(meaning you) realize that you(you again) had not included the fight record of a single Gracie in that paragraph? And will this stupid retort get me beat FASTER by somebody 'who knows even the rudiments of groundwork'? How fast is that again?

BTW, I think it should be 'sambotista', as 'samboist' sounds too much like a brass instrument.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
BTW, I think it should be 'sambotista', as 'samboist' sounds too much like a brass instrument.

If you go by Japanese convention, you could call them "Samboka", but that makes them sound like you should be doing shots.

Anyone know Russian? What would the appropriate conjugation be in that language?

[Stranger]

"Sambist" is the correct term for "one who practices sambo".

[General Kwei]

Knife attacks and their defenses are easy to practice against, get a marker and some aggressive freinds and see how many marks they can put on you before you get the knife form them.
The other problem we must always keep in mind, is the competence of the person holding the knife. If he is good then he may have a few good tricks. If he is untrained, he may have a few good tricks.

[Stranger]

AT,

I know Ed O'Neil is not a threat to the public at large. I was just busting your stones and pointing out that somebody that looks like an "Al Bundy" may have a suprise in store for the presumptuous profiler.

[Merryprankster]

LOL at my own stupidity!

Just read the last sentence of KC Elbows response and just got the joke.

Aherm...


Rickson by armbar, :09, round 1.