Most intact system

[Arhat of Fury]

What system stemming from Shaolin Temple or any other temples is most intact, meaning in its original form as a whole external, internal and weaponry.
My guess would be wing chun or Hung gar, this is obviously an uneducated guess.
Can anyone enlighten me?

AOF

[Arhat of Fury]

ahem!

[TaoBoy]

I think you've asked a really tough question here. I don't know how anyone could really answer it. I doubt that any systems are the same as they were when they were created as all martial arts systems undergo evolution as the times require.

[Shadow Dragon]

Arhat of Fury.

Not into Southern CMA myself, but I have to agree with Taoboy.

Systems and styles have to evolve to adapt to due to changing situations in Combat, legal and social issues.

So the most authentic system/style might also be the most outdated/impractical one.

Each generation of practicioners and lineage holders decide in which direction they want to take/develop their system/style.

Maybe you should ask which style holds the most true to the original principles, forms and technqiues or similar.

Just some random thoughts.

[Arhat of Fury]

TB and SD,
Good point, I think I should rephrase that question.


Which style ,outdated or not , is closest to its original form or techniques stemming from shaolin?

[jmd161]

Arhat of Fury,

From what i know which is not a lot mind you. Even the Hung Gar taught today is not the same as it was at Shaolin.I study Black Tiger which was supposed to be the highest level of Shaolin training and i know my Sigung Grandmaster Wong Cheung added some new forms and techniques to the style.

Styles started at Shaolin so long ago that there's really no real way to tell what is original anymore.

jmd161:)

[David Jamieson]

I would be inclined to say Cha Chuan and Bak Sil Lum are most like what was practiced at Shaolin pre-1928.

However, Shaolin covers such a huge body of martial material that it is hard to say 100%

Together, all martial arts born from shaolin practices carry most of what was. the Hung styles cover quite a lot of the animal styles still to this day. With emphasis on Tiger in the greater body of practice.

White Crane has a lot of Shaolin flavour in it and of course, the Wing Chun style is a distallation of Shaolin Kung Fu and contains much of the original material.

It's all there though, and a little more of course because of the building and adaptations that the masters have contributed since the pre-1928 temple.

It can also be argued that the red fist style with it's 2 forms is the complete and it can also be argued that seeing as Shaolin is most notably a place of Chan , which in turn stresses the importance of the now, that what is there now is the most complete Shaolin system.

Perspective.

You can never in your whole life time learn and retain it all. Mastery is portioned out. It gives us more choices for what we may be able to learn an allows us to find the Kung Fu of Shaolin that fits us as an individual.

peace

[Arhat of Fury]

Nice replys fellows,

This as in anything boils down to your work/study ethic. That is what makes it work.
Very informative answers.
Thanks again

AOF

[lungyuil]

I would have to say that it would be our YKM three internal forms which are said to be original Dragon forms.

Hung Gars Gung Jee would also be an original form.:)

[Shaolin Master]

Yau Gung (Rou Gung) is a derivation of a Shaolin excercise set used to train and develop pliability so as to assist in actual fist methods. It may have now developed into an actual good art with all its useful and effective facets but in the shaolin quan pu of old it is listed as a gung skill not a quan (fist art).

Gung Gee Fook Fu is not an original form at all, in fact it was developed from Fook Fu kuen which was developed from some key techniques (no form initially).

Northern Shaolin though a nice system is also not necessarily very old 4-5 generations mostly.

Cha Quan is but again it had re-developed when the stems branched of into Li, Zhang and Yang Styles of it. Noting that being of Moslem origin the Buddhist comlplete incorporation makes it a little inplausible. In fact shaolin often borrows and exchanges but only limited amounts of systems as such they often have a bit of this and that but a lot of nothing.

Fujian white crane is not shaolin. Fang Zhi Niang has no attachment to the shaolin name.

Most current sets of Songshan Shaolin have undergone redevelopement. For example in the quan pu it often lists the revisions in a particular dynasty by a particular monk....etc..increasin the techniques from 12 to 34 to 64 to 88 etc as an example.
Xiao Hong Quan is thought to have had minimal modifications (being fundamental it tended to be learnt skipped and then specialised) but Da Hong Quan has had many installments and modifications.

Black Tiger was said to be founded by So Hak Fu. So no previous iterations are verifiable.

In fact, shadow dragon is closer to the truth, the old may not be necessarily better but then again it depends if the method of training was maintained or watered down. As an example Xin Yi Liu He Quan is very old and different, with only minimal content but its effectiveness is never overstated.

Just some ramble to ensure the balance of the coin .

Regards to all

[lungyuil]

Shaolin Master,
Does it say as to when the change occured about our YKM internal forms. Because our history states that it was originally used to fight challenges made to shaolin.

Originally it was also known as "the style with no name"s, maybe you are confusing it with something else that are just exercises of the same name now!

Our Great Grandmaster Ha Hon hung was told to give it the name Yau Kung Mun from the monk Tit Yun.

Any information would help.
thanks

[fiercest tiger]

Nice breakdown of yau kung mun although you dont know the full history as alot has been left out from the public and handed down to sifu's of this style. Yes, it was practised as an exercise for training the chi and for health this is part one of the 3 internal sets that all comes with mediations,push hands, herbs and striking/conditioning the hands. Part 2 is for fighting and belongs to pugilism, part 3 is an exercise for ging and body strengthening and internal work.

Not many really have seen these forms or know them in YKM most learn the pak mei art and maybe may learn a section for health from the Real ykm art.

Hows it all going over their?:)

Garry

LungYuil,

Yes , grandmaster Ha was the 1st layman to name ykm from monk Tit Yan. It is Dragon and tiger!! But has all 5 animals included etc but im not going into 5 animal details here. see you at training!:)

Sifu

[Shaolin Master]

FT,

All is well, meeting old friends making new ones......shopping galore....I have trekked to Longquan to order some custom made weaponry to my specifications which will be ready in 2 months. Seen many sites, filled many gaps in history, clarified my thoughts, met martial arts masters of many styles some excellent some just ok .. in China like most places there is a bit of both .. learnt some additional sets of my styles like 'True Military Sword' of Wudang, the second set of "Miao Blade" of piguaquan (I only knew the first before), some XinYiLiuHe and a style known as 'Zi Men Quan' of JiangXi province from my friend. studying Lei Ga of a different branch etc.............and will be visiting MeiZhou and Hui Zhou (Hakka areas) soon to exchange knowledge. Got some porcelain ordered from Jingdazhen, Latest hollywood DVDs, lots of food, banquets, temples, shows and less stress from work than when I was back home.

Howz 'bout you, all well with the family (both actual and martial)?

LY,FT,

Maybe Yau Gung is more than just a skill now but in the past it may have been different one never knows. It is important to have an open mind and do research from various sources and then it makes ones ancestory interesting and beautiful.

Re:Thread,
In the end though, The original question of most intact system has no real answer only assumptions and possibilities right? to the practitioners what they practice is most intact but it is like to a christian there is a god, to buddhist there is reincarnation and to Muslims the Koran is it......everyone has their beliefs, it is important to see beyond the one belief to enjoy the true fruit of life :-)

Regards,

[fiercest tiger]

All is well here, my family is good my mothers heart operation has been cancelled twice due to lack of beds, pays to be in private health cover these days!:)

Seems like your getting alot from your trip and learning more kung fu which is great!

So you mentioned that YKM was a skill, what type?:) And maybe it has changed maybe its still the same, who would know best? YKM masters and the Ha Hon Hungs son Ha Kwok Cheung!!:) lol anyway shaolin master as long as we train and we are happy in our chosen art thats what matters right?:) Good luck and be careful see you when you get back or speak to you before then im sure.:)

There is a ykm player in europe that has emailed me also and his sifu is a monk from guangzhou buddhist temple and learnt YKM internal and traces its roots back to Monk Tit Yan, He also talks of the fighting and the healing of YKM. The pak mei was added outside by ha hon hung just thought i would add this for clarification!:) Like i said no one has really seen the internal art only the ones that has learnt it!

take care
FT Garry aka GUM MO:D