Are MA REALLY declining!

[Shadow Dragon]

Hi.

Just something to spark a discussion:

Are the MA really declining?
How do we measure the decline?
How does the decline manifest itself?

Should we see/preserve MA they way the founders intented them or as a fighting system that needs to adapt and change to the circumstances?

There were always new systems coming up and being dropped trhough the ages, so what makes NOW different?

Yes, there are more bad MA Instructors today then in years gone by, but than we also have way more students?

Personally, I think that the core of good MA practicioners and Sifu has and always will remain about the same size.

Why, because of the way that good MA is transmitted and taught.

With todays modern media and communciation abilities we tend to hear more about frauds and so on, but that does not mean that there were none or fewer in the old Days.

IMHO, I think commercialisation has a lot to do with todays frauds, many people heard that they can swindle people using MA and thus more crooks are climbing onto that particular wagon.

Just look at all the associations that will rank and certify People for a fee.
Why, because they can still get away with it, and it is easy to set up shop on the Net.

What are your thoughts.

[David Jamieson]

no

peace

[rogue]

Nah. I think we may moving them foreward with all we're learning in sports medicine, the various forms of competition and even just video tapes of bits of knowlage out there. Now we may be losing the more esoteric parts of the martial arts but if they have enough value they'll survive even if it's just as a curiosity or something fun.

[TaoBoy]

In the words of Eddie Vedder, "it's evolution baby!".

[SevenStar]

people have changed. the general population doesn't want hardcore training. A perfect example is tai chi. look at how is it taught today - the majority of it seems to be the health only hippie stuff. aero boxing, tae bo, etc. - people are looking for an alternative method of fitness and to learn self defense on the side, not hardcore training. And many of those that do primarily want self defense don't want to put in the necessary time to learn and develop properly. Because of this, training changes and McDojos are born.

[yenhoi]

I sure hope so!

The more frauds and fakes and McDojo clones there are the better.

[Ray Pina]

I know the popular thought and answer is to say, "yes", martial arts are declining. But all I have is my experience.

As I grow, as I move on in my training, I just see higher and higher levels. Now, I know I am very fortunate to be training with my master, and I never imagined martial arts to work this way, but one should always be advancing, so martial arts next week should be better then this week.

As for crappy schools. I remember being a kid, and you knew a good 2/3 of the people showing up at tournaments were just to fill the seats and pay the fee. The people that went home with throphies, usually the same faces and schools.

I don't know about shooting chi across a room or any of that (doubt it). Dim Mak, I'm open enough to consider its possibility somewhere down the line. But as far as technique, what I am learning now is light years ahead of what I used to study, so as far as I'm concerened martial arts has never been in a better state.:)

[eulerfan]

"Just look at all the associations that will rank and certify People for a fee.
Why, because they can still get away with it, and it is easy to set up shop on the Net."

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you won't judge people on their own merits, you deserve to be taken by such shysters. I know what it takes to be ranked and certified in MY system. So, if somebody in my system has a black belt, I know what that means. Any other system, black belt, or any belt or sash, is meaningless to me. Because I don't know what it takes.

And I really think that's the way it's supposed to work. Ranks and certifications are communiques within a system. You will have to demonstrate your knowledge or technique to a person outside of the system some other way.

I think we get wrapped up in that cr@p and stop thinking for ourselves. It's lazy.

I know a guy who got his degree from Harvard. A friend was talking about him and said, "That guy is so smart. He got his degree from Harvard."

I was so confused. "Have talked to him? He's an idiot. Can't you tell that? My hat is off to him getting that degree. I bet he's a VERY hard worker. 'So smart'? No, I don't think so."

My friend reacted like it was this huge secret. "Oh my god, you think that, too?" My friend was afraid to have the opinion that this guy was kind of dim because the guy had some certificate.

[ewallace]

You just have to filter through all the crap to find the real good schools. Kind of like looking for a job in the classifieds or online. You see what looks like a great job but turns out to be another pesky job recruiter. Then you see a basic ad with no flare and it turns out to be the best job you've ever had.

[Ford Prefect]

I think the question is too general to answer and depends greatly on your point of view.

[eulerfan]

It is too general to answer. It's not too general to chew on. To spark thoughts and ideas. SD made it fairly clear that that was her intention.

[SevenStar]

"I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you won't judge people on their own merits, you deserve to be taken by such shysters. "


People who are completely new to MA and don't know what to look for don't know. When they end up at one of the McDojos, they stay there, and may never see what other schools are like. Then they open a school and being in more of the same students... it's a never-ending cycle

[MightyB]

I wouldn't say declining, but there is a lot happening now. There's a lot of division creating some new categories of martial arts.

I would say that you now have Traditional which includes all the old formal styles.

Sport (combat, and fitness)

Street (which would be the "Special Forces" or "Street Thug" derivative martial arts)

Each of these is becomming more specialized, and their effectiveness for what they are intended for is getting better.

Where we have problems and where we see some decline are in the "Schizophrenic" schools--- the ones that can't decide what they want to be based on the above classifications. They try to be inclusive of multiple or all of the characterstics (or new styles) and, as a result, tend to be mediocre or bad in all of them (the ol' Jack of all Trades Master of None syndrome).

[guohuen]

Yes. It's the natural order of things. Every human endeaver reaches an apex. After that bells and whistles are added to sell it to the general populas. Then it's reduced to it's lowest common denominator for economics. More bells and whistles are added to keep the public interested. More hype is written by literature and science wannabees. The product now only vaguely resembles the original. Only a small portion of what made the thing good to begin with still exists. Everyone can afford it now. Most everone can do it now.
What fits into this catagory?
Most automobiles.
Most music.
Most cinema.
Most television.
Most clothing.
Most furniture.
Most sports.
Most culinary arts.
Most fine arts.
ect.
Many believe CMA apexed in the early 1900's.
Film in 1939.
Recorded music in 1967.
ect.
At one time not long ago only one person knew how to make a flint knife. They rediscovered it. This can happen with anything. Gold beading is another example.

[Suntzu]

MA is what it is… just because u have MA for fitness, point sparring, self defense and sport does not make one bad and the other good… if anything each is getting better at what they do… people get out of MA what they want… if u want cardio KF u get that... if you want MMA... thats out there too... as for newbies not getting what they want... well thats part of the process... hell... i use to train at a McDojo... but without that experience i might not be where i am today...

[SevenStar]

I think all of those divisions are part of the problem, as all of those divisions don't belong under the term "MA" tae bo is by no means martial, not is the new age tai chi if you aren't learning the applications.

[azwingchun]

I don't know if I would call it a decline, though I think many styles are changing, seems this has really happened in the past 10 years or so with the introduction of the UFC and the like. I can't speak for all areas around the world, but were I live there seems to be this new breed of MMA training and the loss of the so-called traditional arts. I don't think that this is completely a bad thing though. Throughout the history of MA the so-called new and inproved arts have also come about, though this didn't always mean that they were better, just someone's perception, or maybe even a marketing ploy.

As far as the traditional arts, I believe they must adapt to to their surroundings, such as how to take on these new styles. But at the same time my question is how much can you change or adapt your art without eventually changing your entire style/system. I have always wondered how was Wing Chun used and trained back in the day over 250 years ago? Is it the same, similar or completely different? How much has been lost over the centuries? My next question is what will Wing Chun look like in another 250 years, how will it have changed by then?;)

As far as the McDojos, well I believe in some sense they have probably been around since people began charging to teach the martial arts. I am sure there were frauds 200 years ago. Unfortunately, they do give true martial artist a bad name, but this is were your belief in your system comes in. If you believe in what you are doing, no one else should be able to influence you and your training. Though, I have to admit that I label the Tae Bo groups and groups like this under the McDojo label. This is because people are told that they will be able to handle themselves in real life situations if they take this class. I think this is a false sense of security, IMHO. ;)

[Suntzu]

*I* don’t see it as part of the problem as it pertains to the quality of MA available… it's Tae-bo for gods sake… I'm sure noone( I could be wrong ) is taking tae-bo for self-defense purposes… its tae-bo… its for fitness… the problem I do have with those cardio type classes is the fact that most dont teach it correctly and can lead to injury... but thats another thread... but anyway it serves its purpose and that fitness... but MMA style instruction is 'bad' to someone that wants fitness... if u wanna fight and there is no sparring move on... but that doesnt mean its bad... its just bad for u... granted there is difficulty in finding what u want in MA... but its outthere... it may not be the style of first choice or a longer drive than what u want... but its still there...u might wanna do shuai jiao(sp?) but u might have to settle with judo... but it still serves the purpose... to throw dude on his neck...

[ewallace]

I'm sure noone( I could be wrong ) is taking tae-bo for self-defense purposes
Yep. You are wrong. It is common among housewives to take the hours in between Days of Our Lives and Oprah to improve their physique and self defense skills. It's like sweatin to the oldies with a side of ass whooping.

[Suntzu]

This is because people are told that they will be able to handle themselves in real life situations if they take this class. I think this is a false sense of security, IMHO. that IMO is gonna change too… with forums like this and the help of UFC and the like… people who are interested in MA are becoming educated as to what to look for in a MA school… but u will still have parents that need a babysitter for lil jonny after school... and McDojos will serve them( and even in McDojos hids a monster of a fighter... and thanks to lil jonny, his training is being paid for )... lil jonny mom is gonna wann lose a few for mr jonny so she'll take the cardio class... and when lil jonny grows up he'll wann be like Shamrock and he'll either move on or train with badazz fighter after hours at the McDojo...

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by eulerfan
"Just look at all the associations that will rank and certify People for a fee.
Why, because they can still get away with it, and it is easy to set up shop on the Net."

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you won't judge people on their own merits, you deserve to be taken by such shysters. I know what it takes to be ranked and certified in MY system. So, if somebody in my system has a black belt, I know what that means. Any other system, black belt, or any belt or sash, is meaningless to me. Because I don't know what it takes.

And I really think that's the way it's supposed to work. Ranks and certifications are communiques within a system. You will have to demonstrate your knowledge or technique to a person outside of the system some other way.

I think we get wrapped up in that cr@p and stop thinking for ourselves. It's lazy.

I know a guy who got his degree from Harvard. A friend was talking about him and said, "That guy is so smart. He got his degree from Harvard."

I was so confused. "Have talked to him? He's an idiot. Can't you tell that? My hat is off to him getting that degree. I bet he's a VERY hard worker. 'So smart'? No, I don't think so."

My friend reacted like it was this huge secret. "Oh my god, you think that, too?" My friend was afraid to have the opinion that this guy was kind of dim because the guy had some certificate.

i just want to point out that this is one of the smartest things i've read on here in a long time.

well said.


stuart b.

[Suntzu]

Yep. You are wrong. It is common among housewives to take the hours in between Days of Our Lives and Oprah to improve their physique and self defense skills. and some housewives believe everything the see on infomercials too… there is always gonna be blind believers… it not MA's fault… Billy's maybe… btw my mom has a helluva leg kick and jab oh yeah knee to the groin watchin them tapes and 'sparring' with me:cool: ...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Suntzu
that IMO is gonna change too… with forums like this and the help of UFC and the like… people who are interested in MA are becoming educated as to what to look for in a MA school…

As long as there are people in the world that want dramatic results without putting in the work, it will never change. I guess it's not so much a decline in MA as it is a change in the human mentality over the years.

[Shadow Dragon]

Thanks, everyone great posts.


Originally posted by SevenStar

As long as there are people in the world that want dramatic results without putting in the work, it will never change. I guess it's not so much a decline in MA as it is a change in the human mentality over the years.

I feel the same way, and as long as someone wants to buy xy someone will be there to sell xy.
Cheers.

[yenhoi]

As long as _your_ training is all good with you, then what difference does it make how MA is viewed, or what kind of 'name' martial artists have? Where is this "problem" if your training is sound and correct and all that? Why does it matter how many McDojos there are and how many spoofed people are out there thinking they can fight, or thinking they are recieving self-defense skills or training.

I can understand (somewhat) peoples desire to see their own 'art' prosper and survive, and not have stuff 'lost' or 'watered down' or see thier system fragmented, etc. I do not understand at all the concern for "Martial Arts" in general, as some sort of entity - really what do you care how other schools besides your own teach students - or how well?

[[Censored]]

If the level of patience goes down, then of course the level of martial ability will go down with it. Are people less patient now than 50 years ago, or 100 years ago?

As long as _your_ training is all good with you, then what difference does it make...?

If, after a few short years of dedicated practice, you can't find any decent hands to play with, then it's a shame, don't you think? :eek:

[HuangKaiVun]

One thing I've noticed is the Japanization of the Chinese martial arts.

Nowadays, many kung fu schools used colored sashes. Instead of "dans", there are "levels" or other so-called advanced ranks.

The style of fighting is predominantly kickboxing, and everybody holds their postures in a Japanese shotokan manner.

There's a lot of bowing, kiai-ing, knuckle pushups, and "do" stuck at the end of the name of styles. Even the class structure often looks like that in a dojo - regimented layers of guys arranged in hierarchical order by belt rank.

Good or bad? I'd say both.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
One thing I've noticed is the Japanization of the Chinese martial arts.

Nowadays, many kung fu schools used colored sashes. Instead of "dans", there are "levels" or other so-called advanced ranks.

The style of fighting is predominantly kickboxing, and everybody holds their postures in a Japanese shotokan manner.

There's a lot of bowing, kiai-ing, knuckle pushups, and "do" stuck at the end of the name of styles. Even the class structure often looks like that in a dojo - regimented layers of guys arranged in hierarchical order by belt rank.

Good or bad? I'd say both.

I think that's due to two things:

1. teaching - If a sifu doesn't show his students the applicaitons of the techniques and drill it into them, then they will NEVER fight according to their style.

2. tounraments - the majority of tourneys are karate related and CMA compete in them. unnecessary kiais are added as judges seem to like that (at least in my area) karate styles have added alot of unnecessary yelling also. the "pseudo kickboxing" probably works better in point tourneys than CMA it's also more natural for most people, and when the sifu is not drilling applications into them (see #1) they won't be able to fight with it. That's not only CMA though - alot of karate guys don't fight like karate guys.

[Mr Punch]

Just to add, there'll always be idiots who can't do what they're supposed to be able to do: martial artists who can't fight, leaders who can't lead, managers who can't manage etc.

There are still plenty of well-taught martial arts out there, and the potential for interesting and fruitful cross-fertilisation is higher now than ever. Martial arts are no more in general decline than the rest of civilization as we know it...

oh wait a minute... :eek: :eek: :rolleyes: :D !!!

[HuangKaiVun]

Good points, sevenstar.

I'll say that for the professional sifu, the external societal pressure on him to become a standardized dojo is pretty intense.

For example, everybody asks me "Do you have a black belt?"

Practically everybody I've run into has told me "Focus on the kids, do belts and certification fees, teach Tae Bo. Otherwise you won't survive as a business".

Everybody nowadays ASSUMES that I teach "karate", and I always gently correct them that I teach "kung fu". I want to please my clients, but I won't go so far as to make myself into something that I am not.

We see a lot of "karate-kung fu" schools nowadays, possibly because of this subtle societal pressure. And of course it affects the application of the techniques.

It's not easy for a kung fu school to BE a kung fu school nowadays.


As far as patience goes, my experience has shown me that paying students DO have enough patience to stick with the grind of training IF the goal is visible and achievable.

I've been fortunate to not have trained with teachers that forced me to do stuff they themselves couldn't do, but I've seen it. Training with an unrealistic or ineffective teacher will crack the patience of even the most dedicated student.

Teachers have to step up to the plate too.

[jungle-mania]

In regards to the original question with CMA in perspective. I'd say that from my corner of the world (Singapore), it is changing to conform to go along with China's main wushu body. Contemparory forms and sanshou predominantly dominate the limelight nowadays in the wushu scene, particularly the former. Studying in Australia showed me that the traditional CMA is going strong in down under, but many seem to have forgotten the true purpose of CMA and try really hard to be like their idols in kungfu flicks. On the other extreme end, some schools have evolved beyond the point of resembling much of kungfu, except for their uniforms. These schools have lost their traditional aspect and have very little chinese cultural connection and have become more of a MMA school in any sense, nothing bad about it, just isn't kungfu anymore. There isn't a unified identification for kungfu anymorewhich people can realte to, it is now represented by traditional, contemparory, sanshou and kungfu hybrids. CMA is not declining, but it may not be changing for the better, too much confusion in it.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by jungle-mania
Studying in Australia showed me that the traditional CMA is going strong in down under, but many seem to have forgotten the true purpose of CMA and try really hard to be like their idols in kungfu flicks. On the other extreme end, some schools have evolved beyond the point of resembling much of kungfu, except for their uniforms. These schools have lost their traditional aspect and have very little chinese cultural connection and have become more of a MMA school in any sense, nothing bad about it, just isn't kungfu anymore. There isn't a unified identification for kungfu anymorewhich people can realte to, it is now represented by traditional, contemparory, sanshou and kungfu hybrids. CMA is not declining, but it may not be changing for the better, too much confusion in it.

...that sounds like a decline to me. A decline in quality, not in the skill level of the practitioners.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun

Practically everybody I've run into has told me "Focus on the kids, do belts and certification fees, teach Tae Bo. Otherwise you won't survive as a business".

Everybody nowadays ASSUMES that I teach "karate", and I always gently correct them that I teach "kung fu". I want to please my clients, but I won't go so far as to make myself into something that I am not.

So true. kids and cardio kick are where the money is, and the ranks give people that sense of achievement they need to keep going. And it's like people expect that now, like it's a necessary evil. They don't understand that that's

We see a lot of "karate-kung fu" schools nowadays, possibly because of this subtle societal pressure. And of course it affects the application of the techniques.

It's not easy for a kung fu school to BE a kung fu school nowadays.


I've been fortunate to not have trained with teachers that forced me to do stuff they themselves couldn't do, but I've seen it. Training with an unrealistic or ineffective teacher will crack the patience of even the most dedicated student.

Teachers have to step up to the plate too.

Agreed. Teachers have to TEACH - and unfortunately, not all of them know how to.

[HuangKaiVun]

But I DON'T do any of that cardio/belt/kids stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I have a children's class that focuses on things like stranger awareness and breaking away from attackers/kidnappers.

The only reason I have a "kids" class is because many children feel intimidated in adult classes and do better among people closer to their age and size range.

The people that have approached me thus far have almost completely been martial artists that have trained in other styles. I get a lot of people, even among children, who insist that they want to "learn kung fu" and "NOT karate or tae kwon do".

My thing in kung fu is that I need not contort myself to fit the cardio/belt/kiddie military stuff. I'm a traditional sifu who was trained in Chinese self-defense, and that has stood me well thus far.

From the looks of things at my school and at KFO, there are A LOT of people who have the same mentality.