OT: Homeland Security, Big Brother aka John Poindexter [Archive]

Chang Style Novice

11-15-2002, 07:20 AM

I believe most republicans voters are much more moderate than the party's leadership, who constantly lie during campaigning to gain swing voters.

I also believe that most of those swing voters are much more in line with democratic party policies, but are sick of the wimpiness and lack of charisma that way too many of them demonstrate, which is why Bill Clinton was such a staggering success.

I will, of course, be notifying my senators (and representative) to vote against this orwellian nightmare. I can count on Doggett. I have few hopes for Hutchison and Cornyn.

Hai_To

11-15-2002, 07:58 AM

It frightens me to see what people will do or allow in the name of security.

eulerfan

11-15-2002, 08:45 AM

As soon as I started seeing all those, "America the Free" commercials, I started working on an ulcer. To see the propaganda machine start grinding like that. Why try so hard to convince us that America is free unless you're about to cast doubt on that point?

fa_jing

11-15-2002, 09:05 AM

The average US citizen often doesn't vote. Don't think that we all ask for people to govern us.

Suntzu

11-15-2002, 09:26 AM

Wasnt u all FOR TIPS????

guohuen

11-15-2002, 09:26 AM

Holy Book of Revelation, Batman!

ewallace

11-15-2002, 09:28 AM

Attention Senator Kay Hutchinson: You've got mail!

eulerfan

11-15-2002, 09:29 AM

fa_jing,

You're right. And I'd even go so far as to say that those who do govern us take care not to wake that sleeping giant.

FatherDog

11-15-2002, 10:11 AM

My passport is up to date, and a good Unix sysadmin can find work anywhere.

I'm also writing my Senator, 'cos I don't want to see this kind of **** happen here. But if things get rough, Scotland's gonna have a new citizen.

rogue

11-15-2002, 10:52 AM

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
those who wish to gain security by restricting freedom will not have nor do they deserve either one.

That's obviously what the average US citizen wants or else they wouldn't have voted for the Republican party and it's extremist agenda. Good to see the other side once again underestimating the intelligence of the average American voter.:rolleyes:

You gain strength, courage and confidence by every expierence in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself. "I lived through this horror. I can take teh next thing that comes along." Roosevelt. Elenor not Franklin or Teddy

eulerfan

11-15-2002, 11:08 AM

Wow, you are so free. Don't you think it's amazing how free you are? Let me see your wrist for a second? I mean, I think you're really lucky, to be so free. You can marry whomever you want. I hate these stupid latches. You can go to a library and check out any book, however controversial. You're other wrist, please? What? Why not? You're so free. You're just very, very free. I don't understand why you're even worried about me putting this cuff on your wrist. No?

Okay, I'm going to have these guys hold you down while I put it on. But, it's just gonna be for a minute. Trust me, you're still free. You're so free, you can not be free and still be free. That's how free you are.

I.M. Toast

11-15-2002, 11:28 AM

why are we just taking William Safire's word for it? I would hope that you would investigate Mr. Poindexter through more than just one source, preferably through sources that normally disagree with one another.
Otherwise, you are just like the "sheep" that you criticize.

As for myself, I do not have enough information to decide one way or the other at this point.

I.M.T.

eulerfan

11-15-2002, 11:37 AM

You're right. I'm just going off about those commercials, really. They really freak me out.

Suntzu

11-15-2002, 11:47 AM

I'm just going off of what I see around me… they have retina scanners at JFK(I think) for the staff… and how do all these cold callers get my d@mn phone #:mad: … is a database that unlikely???

BeiKongHui

11-15-2002, 11:57 AM

Good to see the other side once again underestimating the intelligence of the average American voter.

Other side? Other side of what? You mean there are only 2 sides to this story in America? Sad.

I don't really think it's an under estimation either. Or else we wouldn't have a total moron, coke head, crook running the country. Plus, let's not forget that it's the Republicans in this country who put people like Jesse Helms, Strom Thurman, Trent Lott, Ralph Reed, etc. in power. Or that it was the people in Georgia and South Carolina who voted for Republicans becasue those mean o' lib'rals made 'em take down the Southern Swastika.

Chimp supporters-you asked for it, you got it. You've been made a rube and now it's time to pay.

Suntzu

11-15-2002, 12:04 PM

:D :eek: :D i cant even follow that...

I.M. Toast

11-15-2002, 12:13 PM

Suntzu:

Retina scanners for the staff might be reasonable; for the passengers, less so.
And as for the telemarketers, yes, there is a database. It is held by your credit card, telphone company, and others. It is sold to marketers who might have an interest in your shopping habits. Buy a home? Every loan agent in the world will see the public record and call you about refinancing. Even some "charities" will sell you contact information to other charities. It's not a government conspiracy; it's just rude.

BeiKongHui:Ah, man.. another conspiracy theorist. It seems evident that you believe Safire just because you hate republicans, not because you have other credible sources and because you have thought this through. It's like those people who believed the allegations directed toward Clinton of murder, rape, and sexual harrassment just because they hate democrats.

The real problem is that many (most?) people want others to think for them, and believe without question anyone who agrees with their particular prejudice.

Sad, really.

I.M.T.

Suntzu

11-15-2002, 12:36 PM

I was being sarchastic… but I remember cold caller JUST got there info from the white pages… but with technology came the resources to even have a database to store and sell ###'s… now everyone is screaming privacy… too late… its not hard for whomever to get credit card transactions, e-mail records, whatever... now with new technology all of THAT info can be databased( if not alredy )... now after cries of "protect us, protect us" we WILL be and are screaming privacy...

as for the eye scanners… that just the trial… in time will will be at the bank, airport, where ever getting scanned… for the sake of protection… just let the cost of the technology go down a lil…

I'm with rouge, for once, this COULD be a litle too much… a passport might be a good idea… Switzerland… nobody messes with them right;)

ewallace

11-15-2002, 12:49 PM

Chimp supporters-you asked for it, you got it. You've been made a rube and now it's time to pay.
Yeah, it only took 9 months of dubya's middle east policy to force the action of 9/11. Yeah, it only took 9 months of dubya in office to force a recession. Wait no, democrats were the majority during these events so it's their fault.

It's everyone's fault that what's happening in our government is happening in our government. We as a country have encouraged an adulterer as a president. Hell we'll even pay him to come to our major universities to speak to our future lawmakers. And as far as dubya's adminsistration's plans to restrict individual freedoms, I have two words. Tipper and Gore.

It's not like we have many good options. Personally I would have voted for Jesse Ventura over Bush or Gore simply because he is not a career politician. Anyone ever notice how fast "elect (insert name here) for (insert position here)" signs go up? Ever notice how slow they go down? Ever wonder why anyone would spend 60 million dollars for a 6 figure yearly salary?

I think it boils down to the fact that most folks just too concerned about making ends meat from day to day, making sure their children are okay. It's not that they want "someone to think for them". In fact, usually the people I hear saying that are late-high school to college-aged kids who don't have much else to think about. A lot of folks (including myself) just don't see any difference in most of the candidates. They run great election campaigns and promise great things. Most usually don't happen, some are beyond one person's control.

Suntzu

11-15-2002, 01:10 PM

well… Jesse would just go ahead and body slam whoever was ****in him off… Jesse vs Sadamm only on PPV brought to u by Don King and Budwieser the King of Beers…

ewallace

11-15-2002, 01:13 PM

I'd like to see Royce try and choke "The Body".

txwingchun

11-15-2002, 01:30 PM

Politicians are all worthless,democrat ,republican,etc. It's all the same crap. Thier all criminals in it for themselves. They don't care about the people they are supposed to serve it's a lifetime paycheck for most of them. They all deliver the same empty promises they don't intead to keep. They whip the cattle masses up in a fenzy, people that still hope this one will be different but in the end isn't. Some may not stink as bad as others but they all still stink. If this big brother policy goes through it's going to be a sad day the goverment already abuses it's power now on it's citizens that's only going to make it worse. We need to say something now while we still have a voice.

BeiKongHui

11-15-2002, 01:32 PM

Looks like Reuters is in on the "conspiracy theory" as well. You should research before you shoot your mouth off.

Story (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=564&ncid=564&e=41&u=/nm/20021115/ts_nm/tech_dragnet_dc_2)

ewallace-

oooooohh, an adulterer. I love Biblical terminology in the real world don't you? I'll take an adulterer over the lying, stealing murderous thugs like the Bush crime family any day. Yeah, and I'm sure the PMRC is a truly valid comparison to the little things mentioned in the article above. It's okay, what's freedom and privacy as long as no one is getting any unmarried stank on their hang down though, right?

:rolleyes:

ewallace

11-15-2002, 01:32 PM

So who did you vote for - for govenor? :)

BeiKongHui

11-15-2002, 01:33 PM

Politicians are all worthless,democrat ,republican,etc. It's all the same crap. Thier all criminals in it for themselves.

Yep, couldn't agree more. Leave it to a Wing Chun guy to cut straight to the center! :cool:

ewallace

11-15-2002, 01:35 PM

:rolleyes: Whatever dude. You want conspiracy theories? You think the Bush regime is murderous? Do a search for those who were close to Clinton...mainly in his early days in office and when he was the govenor of arkansas...who were murdered.

Lemme guess...you are late-high school to college age aren't you! :)

ewallace

11-15-2002, 01:37 PM

I'll take an adulterer over the lying, stealing murderous thugs like the Bush crime family any day
That's exactly why things will never change. Many folks like yourself are willing to exuse one because you think the other's worse. When Bush is impeached for murder then we can continue this conversation.

BeiKongHui

11-15-2002, 01:41 PM

ewallace your guess like your facts are wrong. Boy, if I was that age I'd really hate Dubya. He wants to send our young people to die for oil but he was AWOL during Vietnam.

NOTICE I said AWOL. He didn't have the guts to fight or protest he hid.

rogue

11-15-2002, 01:42 PM

"Or else we wouldn't have a total moron, coke head, crook running the country." Clintons brother Roger got elected?:eek:

To all of you who think that pols are the scum of the earth, what are you doing that's any better? Any of you involved in your preferred party? Local Gov't? Any form of public service? Or are you too busy playing kung fu commado to get involved?

BeiKongHui,
Who did the Bush family kill off?

Suntzu

11-15-2002, 01:50 PM

playin commando:D

ewallace

11-15-2002, 01:55 PM

Any of you involved in your preferred party? Local Gov't?
I don't have a preferred party, I generally vote for whoever shares my views on major issues, and/or appears the least crooked.

Any form of public service?
Yes. I stay clear of serving the public. Believe me, that is a service to the public. :) Just kidding. I think we are going to go serve turkeys at the homeless shelter on Thanksgiving. And I was supposed to go rebuild some houses on the west side this weekend but I have to move.

I don't think that politicians are any different than everyone else, only more noticable due to their occupation.

rogue

11-15-2002, 01:58 PM

No, no, no ewallace. I meant things like fund raisers, gala balls and covering up for some pol when you catch him getting a bj from a fat intern.:D

KC Elbows

11-15-2002, 02:10 PM

The only problem I have with choosing the people who I feel will serve best is that usually those people are not part of the same party, and frankly, humans are far more effective in groups. One lone politician doesn't get much done, parties move in groups, and so you're stuck with moving with the herd.

I just think the process has become pretty corrupt and manipulative of the public on all sides. I don't have a solution other than to let it run its natural course, which, I know, is lame, but that's the way it goes.

However, a US government entirely in the pocket of one party, no matter which party, is lame as all hell.

I don't know if Poindexter is big brother, but he is certainly not exactly the person I want in charge of my info. And I am sadly finding myself in agreement with those updating their passports.:(

txwingchun

11-15-2002, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by rogue

To all of you who think that pols are the scum of the earth, what are you doing that's any better? Any of you involved in your preferred party? Local Gov't? Any form of public service? Or are you too busy playing kung fu commado to get involved?

No I don't have a preferred party either, you can get invovled as much as you want but until we get our political system cleaned up some how it's not going to change. I work in the local goverment so I get to see the crap that goes on daily.

rogue

11-15-2002, 02:31 PM

Any suggestions? Make sure they stay within the framework of the constitution. Also just because you're not happy with our system is no reason to abandon being active in it. It's what we have and the only way to affect change is by being a part of it. Like Roosevelt said "The government is us...You and me!"

I.M. Toast

11-15-2002, 03:06 PM

Hear, Hear, Rogue!
I get depressed whenever I hear people take the reactionary stance of "the system doesn't work" and "I'm leaving". I am not sure exactly what people expect.
Democracy is messy. You won't always get what you want, and you have to constantly watch for people trying to take what you have. What is the quote, "Eternal vigialnce is the price of freedom"?

txwingchun:
"Politicians are all worthless,democrat ,republican,etc. It's all the same crap. Thier all criminals in it for themselves. They don't care about the people they are supposed to serve it's a lifetime paycheck for most of them."

So you have met them all? Globals statements like these weaken credability.

"I work in the local goverment so I get to see the crap that goes on daily."

So do I, and yes, it does. That is democracy. Maybe if morality and fairness was embraced more in this world, it would be better, but such is not the case. Even when you have (fairly) morally upstanding people, it can get pretty ugly. Jefferson and J. Addams had some pretty bitter debates, but they were overall good men, and died good friends.

BeiKongHui:

"Looks like Reuters is in on the 'conspiracy theory' as well. You should research before you shoot your mouth off."

"Shoot my mouth off?" Hmm.. my comments were never about Poindexter. They were about the need to check SEVERAL sources before you form any opinions. You have cited another, which by the way is Reuters reporting on the ACLU comments and concerns about the matter. So the two sources are Safire and the ACLU.
If we think about it, here we have two normally opposing figures agreeing on a subject, which may indicate that Rogue is on to something. For me, a little more research is needed.
You will note that I just used the information in the references to help me lean one way or the other. It is not because I feel that democrats are the Debo', or that, Bush is taking over the world, killing babies, or causing the heartbreak of psoriasis.

"He wants to send our young people to die for oil but he was AWOL during Vietnam."

Wow, back up and accusation with yet another accusation. That's fantastic, why didn't I think of that? ;)

I.M.T.

txwingchun

11-15-2002, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by I.M. Toast
Hear, Hear, Rogue!
I get depressed whenever I hear people take the reactionary stance of "the system doesn't work" and "I'm leaving". I am not sure exactly what people expect.
Democracy is messy. You won't always get what you want, and you have to constantly watch for people trying to take what you have. What is the quote, "Eternal vigialnce is the price of freedom"?

txwingchun:
"Politicians are all worthless,democrat ,republican,etc. It's all the same crap. Thier all criminals in it for themselves. They don't care about the people they are supposed to serve it's a lifetime paycheck for most of them."

So you have met them all? Globals statements like these weaken credability.

"I work in the local goverment so I get to see the crap that goes on daily."

So do I, and yes, it does. That is democracy. Maybe if morality and fairness was embraced more in this world, it would be better, but such is not the case. Even when you have (fairly) morally upstanding people, it can get pretty ugly. Jefferson and J. Addams had some pretty bitter debates, but they were overall good men, and died good friends.

I.M.T.
No I haven't met them all but as the saying goes birds of a feather flock together. And the few that are decent don't last as those that oppose them in the goverment will use what ever they need to to discredit them. If that weren't the case don't you think this country would be in better shape than it is now? Politicians of today are alot different than they were in the early days of our country.

KC Elbows

11-15-2002, 03:33 PM

It just seems to me that US politics is too fractured at this point. Perhaps I'm pessimistic, but it seems like all everyone cares about is making the other party look bad.

We've got the ineffectual democrats vs. republicans who whine because a democrats wake hails democratic ideas. Gosh, can I join?

Or, I could go in as part of another party or on my own and have zero chance to ennact serious change because groups take influence, individuals take responsibility, and I'll just be a lone person, unsupported by a party, or at least a party anyone listens to.

So, stand on my own and look like a loser while being incapable of exacting serious change, or join up and BE a loser restricted from making serious change because of the needs of the party.

I need to not comment on political threads these days.

eulerfan

11-15-2002, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by rogue
"Or else we wouldn't have a total moron, coke head, crook running the country." Clintons brother Roger got elected?:eek:

To all of you who think that pols are the scum of the earth, what are you doing that's any better? Any of you involved in your preferred party? Local Gov't? Any form of public service? Or are you too busy playing kung fu commado to get involved?

I'm not involved in politics or this argument, even. I am involved in logic, though.

Argumentum ad hominem

The character or circumstances surrounding the person making an argument have nothing to do with the validity or truth of the argument.

In fact, if being a complete scumbag disqualified you from identifying somebody else as a scumbag, nobody would ever go to jail.

I don't get why ya'll are even answering this question. It assumes falsely.

rogue

11-16-2002, 10:11 AM

eulerfan, the biggest problem with depending upon logic is that many people that cause problems are illogical.;) I'm a systems analyst and this is something that's been proven to me over and over.

rogue

11-16-2002, 10:14 AM

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20021116-49755.htm

eulerfan

11-16-2002, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by rogue
eulerfan, the biggest problem with depending upon logic is that many people that cause problems are illogical.;) I'm a systems analyst and this is something that's been proven to me over and over.

A lack of logic causes problems?

To me, that's a good reason TO depend on logic. Not an argument against depending on logic.

:D

FatherDog

11-16-2002, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by eulerfan
A lack of logic causes problems?

To me, that's a good reason TO depend on logic. Not an argument against depending on logic.

I think what rogue was getting at is that it's fine to rely on logic, but one shouldn't rely on other people relying on logic. Because they often don't.

eulerfan

11-16-2002, 01:26 PM

And their lack of logic causes problems, right? Problems you have to find solutions to, right? How do you find the solution to a problem? You define it. That's the hardest part.

Just look at this thread. You guys aren't arguing about how to solve the problem. You are arguing about how to define it.

If the problem is somebody else's poor logic, you need good logic to define it. At that point, it's practically solved.

Braden

11-16-2002, 01:44 PM

Scumbugs aren't in court to identify other scumbags, they're in court to indicate someone has taken a certain action.

Ad hominem is a common fault in arguments, but references to character are not always ad hominems. For instance, if we were discussing the colour of something and you were congenitally blind, it wouldn't be an ad hominem to point it out.

So what about this case? Someone was called a scum/moron/etc. What does this mean? It's a subjective characterization. What is something special about subjective characterizations? They are relative. What is notable about things that are relative? Their value is determined by the appropriate body of values in all other occurences of the item in question. So what does this mean? It means that if a relative statement is made, it is logical fair game to call up the related body of values which give this relative statement it's meaning.

In this case, someone was called a scum/moron/etc. But if everyone involved is equally scum/moron/etc-ish, this statement loses it's meaning. Pointing this out is a reference to character, but not an ad hominem mistake.

Or, if you prefer the short story, ad hominem should have been called on the first instance of character attack, not on the reply to it. The unfortunately muddy confusion described above resulted only from this inconsistent application of logic to the related arguments.

Or, this would have also been avoided alltogether had the original critique been an objective statement of observations, rather than a subjective character attack; as per the court/scumbag example previously discussed.

eulerfan

11-16-2002, 08:52 PM

The original accusation was about certain actions being taken. Rather than delineate them, I used the term 'scumbag'. I think rogue was doing the same thing. But those making accusations were making specific ones. Coke use. Theft. Murder.

David Jamieson

11-17-2002, 01:33 AM

......nevermind.

peace

NYerRoman

11-17-2002, 02:33 AM

You vote Republican, what do you want?
You stated it "I'm a conservative Republican".
Whatever.

People - Democrats are the same. The perspective here in Europe is the US is out of control. Start reading the European press news. You only get a small portion of news there. It is very controlled.

Plus, stop voting for these idiots. Stop supporting everything that is happening. It all seems to stem from 9-11. The attack happened NOT because they hate us. It's a story people. It is known here. These f*ckers play with fire, we get burned, they get more what they want.

Read read read. Ask questions. Think about it all. Don't be afraid of the answers. Be angry.

Chang Style Novice

11-17-2002, 09:20 AM

Well, give us a little credit, NYerRoman. Most americans didn't vote for George W. Bush. Heck, not even most americans who voted in that election voted for George W. Bush.

NYerRoman

11-17-2002, 09:40 AM

I didn't see any protests happening in the US when it was reported that he actually lost Florida in the recount (reported in November 2001) OR when the Supreme Court issued an apology to the US public for it's intervention in the election decision February 2001 in which the Court had NO constitutional grounds for doing such.

There is a complacency in the US. There is the blind belief that the "system works".

But it is not a democracy. It is not following the principles of a republic. How much more evidence do people need? It is democratic because you are told it is?

If the man actually lost the elections, both popular and electoral, and whose business dealings are all oil (Saudis, business partner Salaam Bin Laden until death in 1988), and whose company profits went to Saudi Arabia where the benefactors funded Al Qaeda.....etc...
AND there is such a law that is being passed, besides the current infringements in civil liberties in a country like the US.....

I'd start my protest there everyday. I wouldn't be so complacent. It is everyone's duty to tell the next person you don't like what's happening, to start voicing your opinion. It is a republic afterall people. It is a constitutional right.......at least it is so far.

Braden

11-17-2002, 11:10 AM

"The original accusation was about certain actions being taken."

I didn't claim otherwise. I said they were ad hominems and subjective characterizations. Accusations about actions being taken are often one or both of these things.

The exact quote is "total moron, coke head, crook."

Total moron? Surely this is purely a subjective characterization and not an accusation about certain actions being taken.

Crook? I agree this is an accusation about certain actions being taken. However, I contend it's also an ad hominem and a subjective characterization. Why? What standards are there for this statement being made? The individual in question is the president, and not a prison inmate, parolee, ex-prison-inmate, ex-parolee, or even legitimately accused of something that could put him in one of these states. If the standard is simply 'the speaker chooses to assert this', then nothing is ever an ad hominem. Obviously you don't believe this. A standard of 'the speaker chooses to assert this and I choose to believe it' is no better a disqualification of ad hominems.

Coke head? I suppose we can only speculate.

In a way, all of this is kind of moot, since the characterizations were only made in the first place as proof of every voter's stupidity. So I guess I'm wrong, these aren't really ad hominems, since they're not even part of a reasonable argument. They're just examples of someone calling everyone stupid. All the more reason, however, that they shouldn't be defended under the guise of rigorous logic.

eulerfan

11-17-2002, 11:36 AM

Braden, I wasn't defending their statements. I was telling them they weren't beholden to defend their personal lives in this argument. Because that has no bearing on their argument.

Whether or not they are politically active has no bearing on whether or not Bush is a cokehead and a crook. Whether or not Bush is a cokehead and a crook does arguably have bearing on whether or not he should hold office. I think the difference lies there.

I think it is perfectly logical to ask for proof and evidence to support such accusations.

It is highly logical to respond with, "That is a subjective characterization and is therefore inadmissible."

I find it highly ILlogical to respond with, "Well, how are you any better?" That is an ad hominem.

The validity of other arguments is not my concern. I think that, when you are arguing politics and you somehow convince the other people in the debate to defend their lives, you've completely left the arena of logic. That's when I stop watching silently and say, "NO NO NO NO NO. Don't answer that question. That is unfair."

I don't expect everybody to debate with only the best logic. But, some things go too far.

eulerfan

11-17-2002, 11:52 AM

Braden,

You and I are going to have one of those whetstone relationships, aren't we? ;)

tnwingtsun

11-17-2002, 05:41 PM

"Republicans in this country who put people like Jesse Helms, Strom Thurman, Trent Lott, Ralph Reed, etc. in power. Or that it was the people in Georgia and South Carolina who voted for Republicans becasue those mean o' lib'rals made 'em take down the Southern Swastika."

How long have you lived in South Carolina?
Strom Thurman's done more for that state than ANYONE in its history.

"Southern Swastika"

One who is deficient in judgment, sense, or understanding.
One who acts unwisely on a given occasion: I was a fool to have quit my job.
One who has been tricked or made to appear ridiculous; a dupe: They made a fool of me by pretending I had won.
Informal. A person with a talent or enthusiasm for a certain activity: a dancing fool; a fool for skiing.
A member of a royal or noble household who provided entertainment, as with jokes or antics; a jester.
One who subverts convention or orthodoxy or varies from social conformity in order to reveal spiritual or moral truth: a holy fool.
A dessert made of stewed or puréed fruit mixed with cream or custard and served cold.
Archaic. A mentally deficient person; an idiot.

You stand a confirmed fool.

JOHN POINDEXTER'S plan is a lib'rals WET DREAM.

Chang Style Novice

11-17-2002, 05:55 PM

tnwingtsun:

what are you talking about, "a liberal's wet dream"? Is John Poindexter a liberal because he's doing something you don't like? Or is he a conservative because he's the go to guy for conservative politicians (the Bushes, Reagan, Nixon, etc.)?

For what it's worth, at least three liberals have condemned the idea, right here on this board. Me, KC, and NYerRoman. If that doesn't fit in your box, maybe you ought to try and figure out what's wrong with the box.

rogue

11-17-2002, 08:17 PM

C'mon folks this isn't about right and left, it's about possible abuse of privacy. Poindexter is a very nice man doing what he really believes should be done to protect the US. The problem is what he wants to do could lead to a big brother type situation by both the Republicans and Democrats, both have used information like this in the past.

People - Democrats are the same. The perspective here in Europe is the US is out of control. Start reading the European press news. You only get a small portion of news there. It is very controlled. No offense NYR but Europe is irrellevent.

Chang Style Novice

11-17-2002, 09:50 PM

Rogue is correct: abuse of power and curtailment of civil liberties are the issues here.

And just to be a total ass, liberty and liberal share a linguistic root, don'cha know!

:D

Shadow Dragon

11-17-2002, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by rogue

No offense NYR but Europe is irrellevent.

Not really, because sooner or later they will want to impose those same things on other countries in order to get the bigger picture.

Your best homeland security can be circumvented if people can pop over to mexico, canada or anywhere else to do what they cannot do at home.

If a loophole is left open somebody will use it, if they are all closed you got 1984 or similar scenario and no more freedom and liberties.

Security always comes at a price and the price is a curtail on those same freedoms and liberties.

Cheers.

tnwingtsun

11-18-2002, 01:18 AM

"Is John Poindexter a liberal because he's doing something you don't like?"

I didn't say he was a liberal,I said he's a liberal's wet dream because he's on the verge of raping the Bill Of Rights and the Constitution.
By that I mean the left-wing faction(most call themselves liberals)
agenda over the years has been to take apart our rights
as they see need be in their PC.
Chang,it would surprise you,may even shock you that this right-wing dude has more in common with you than you think.
I'm anti-war,because I've seen it,but this war has been going on for many years and it must be stopped by force,period!
And don't condone what we did in South America(I served in South America and Regan was my boss) or say we had these terr attacks coming because of Republican foreign policys.
9-11 could have happened under Jimmy Carter's watch and almost did!
This ISSUE SHOULD concern all freedom loving Americans.

"For what it's worth, at least three liberals have condemned the idea, right here on this board. Me, KC, and NYerRoman. If that doesn't fit in your box, maybe you ought to try and figure out what's wrong with the box."

No Chang,nothing is wrong with my box on this,we are both in the same box,its the PC agenda that thrives on c-r-a-p like this,they just don't happen to be in power to try and pass this(given thier track record I'm sure they would they would dancing in the streets if given a chance) security measure.

"If the personal freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution inhibit the government's ability to govern the people, we should look to limit those guarantees." ~ President Bill Clinton, August 12, 1993

"Rogue is correct: abuse of power and curtailment of civil liberties are the issues here."

How does your above statment coincide with Bill Clinton's statment????????????????????:confused:

"Is John Poindexter a liberal because he's doing something you don't like?"

I will answer your question with a statment,he is making a VERY BAD judgment call on this one,there are other ways,too many
bad attachments just as the Clinton Crime Bill.
But worse,in fact your missing out on alot of info that came out that bill ,to quote you,"abuse of power and curtailment of civil liberties"

I pull no punches when it comes to politicians RIGHT or LEFT,when they stomp the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights
they need to go down!!

JOHN POINDEXTER maybe a nice guy but he's never sent me a birthday card.

Chang,we both agree with rogue,and I enjoy some of your posts and our sometimes heated debates,but its time to pull together,and I think we have :)

"And just to be a total ass, liberty and liberal share a linguistic root, don'cha know!"

Well,I'm a ass too,the original liberals are a FAR breed apart from the "liberals" of today.

God bless Barbra Boxer:rolleyes: and John Poindexter:(

NYerRoman

11-18-2002, 03:25 AM

Europe is not irrelevent. It will come out of this mess fairly in tact.
The fact that Europeans have a better idea of what is happening means that dissense is quite strong here. There are protests, people taking to the street in massive numbers against war and what is happening NOT because it is irrelevent, but given more information is available stops leaders from doing what they want.

Stop with your elementary school "liberal" and "right and left" arguements. That is so cliche' for people who have nothing to add but what they may have heard.

In addition, the Economist released a list of countries according to press freedom. The US came in 17th.

1. Finland (Europe)
2. Iceland (Europe)
3. Netherlands (Europe)
4. Norway (Europe)
5. Canada (NA)

Study conducted by Reporters Without Borders.

Now people like Rogue....you know where those are? I wrote it in parenthesis.

Mr Punch

11-18-2002, 05:14 AM

'People like Rogue' ?!

There IS nobody like Rogue. That baby is one of a kind! :D And one I agree with in this case. I lost interest in Braden and Eulerfan's argument on ad hominems (I don't think I agree with gay advertising anyway in principle) but I'll come back to it when I've got time. But I do agree that personal slights would not seem to have any bearing on the argument.

And as for the rest of the thread:

NYR, I like you but don't speak for all Europeans if you're gonna be quite so rabidly unsubstantiated... and though that stat from the Economist is interesting, how did they arrive at it?

SD is right in his assessment of how Europe is relevant.

TNWT is assuming again that everyone who disagrees with him is a liberal. I'm no liberal: I like to think I'm as left wing as Genghis Khan... but largely the terms left wing and right wing are a little misleading nowadays as there is so much bias inherent in their very use. I can see how liberal became a term of derision in the US, and sometimes in Europe, but I don't necessarily agree all the time. One thing a lot of Republicans seem to do is confuse Liberals with the left wing... believe me, in most 'democratic' party systems they are way apart.

Rogue is right.

On a basic level, before everyone starts slinging mud around, this is a bull**** piece of proposed legislation and should go no further.

To sling mud, Poindexter is a pointyhead! :D :p

eulerfan

11-18-2002, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by Mat
I lost interest in Braden and Eulerfan's argument on ad hominems (I don't think I agree with gay advertising anyway in principle) but I'll come back to it when I've got time.

Don't even worry yourself with it. It's not an actual argument. It's not a real fight, we're sparring. This is skill honing.

I think the most interesting thing about our argument for an OUTSIDER would be that it's a fighter with formal training up against a street fighter.

ewallace

11-18-2002, 09:47 AM

I think Gene should just arrange a date between Braden and Eulerfan. He could save so much drive space, bandwith and spare most of us KFO'ers from having to read thru intelligent converations.

guohuen

11-18-2002, 09:50 AM

Dude I was thinking more in lines with asking Gene to write the screenplay.

KC Elbows

11-18-2002, 10:17 AM

Hey just got off of a conference call with the conservatives, liberals, right wing, left wing, and of course the democrats and republicans. They all said not to worry, everythings gonna be okay, they've heard your concerns, and GWB even put in that 'while their concerns are clearly concerns, we should not forget...that those concerns...that we're clearly concerned about the concerns...and...I've talked with my staff, and Laura...and we all plan on taking steps to make sure...obviously something has to be done about the...concern.'

So everything's gonna be all right. Now I've gotta go. Got a dentist appointment with this great german guy that **** Cheney hooked me up with. I've never met a dentist so big on safety. Gotta run.:D

BTW, Braden and Eulerfan, congrats on you two, and I know I speak for all of KFO when I say that I hope that longwindedness skips a generation.:p :D

eulerfan

11-18-2002, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by KC Elbows
BTW, Braden and Eulerfan, congrats on you two, and I know I speak for all of KFO when I say that I hope that longwindedness skips a generation.:p :D

I am sure it will come as no surprise to you that my parents are still nursing the shock that I didn't go into law.

When I was about ten, my mom and sister would get into fights about silly teenager stuff like skirt length and curfews. I'd jump in and start moderating.

But this thing we me and Braden is nothing. You should see me with my best friend when we get drunk. We'll empty a room.

MightyB

11-18-2002, 10:51 AM

Hey, the columnist is just playing on your paranoia. The database is already there. Started with Hoover many years ago. I mean, how many of you don't have SSN?

Ever get a credit report? Nothing goes un-noticed my friends. Nothing. And for those of you who think it's a Republican thing, remember the domestic terrorrism acts following Oklahoma City? Oh Billy Bob was going hard after a lot of your basic freedoms... mainly your freedom to have an opinion.

Anyhoo, I voted on the big Tuesday. What was encouraging is that I think everybody voted. I can't recall a time when voting seemed so important to so many people. The turnout was tremendous even if a b!tch Canadian became our Guvner. Some say best-o-the-worst, me, I'm not so sure.

NYerRoman

11-18-2002, 11:29 AM

Mat,
I like you too but "rabidly unsubstantiated"?????
The opposing voice is quite heard here. I do not speak for all Europeans....I do not believe I said "ALL" in my messages.
There are many. It's true.
Unsubstantiated??? I can give you a list of newspapers to read and books written. Truth bites, no? You don't want to believe that just maybe those in power have distorted some truth or law.

The Economist list was done by (it's written underneath but if I have to write it again..) Reporters without Borders.

Give me your email and I'll send you the image of the list (First 5 and last 5 only). The rest was not given. Do a search on the net.

Later.

NYerRoman

11-18-2002, 11:31 AM

MightyB,
Canada...Michigan....same thing. Been there.

BeiKongHui

11-18-2002, 11:44 AM

tnwingtsun

Actually I own property in SC want to buy? I'm glad you delight in your narrow mindedness and poor understanding of the political spectrum. How proud you must be to support someone who has stood against every progressive movement in the last half century.

If there's a God there will be a very sharp spit waiting for Strom soon.

diego

11-18-2002, 01:07 PM

Remember Poindexter? Brilliant man, first in his class at the Naval Academy, later earned a doctorate in physics, rose to national security adviser under President Ronald Reagan. He had this brilliant idea of secretly selling missiles to Iran to pay ransom for hostages, """"""and with the illicit proceeds to illegally support contras in Nicaragua.""""""

A jury convicted Poindexter in 1990 on five felony counts of misleading Congress and making false statements, but an appeals court overturned the verdict because Congress had given him immunity for his testimony. He famously asserted, "The buck stops here," arguing that the White House staff, and not the president, was responsible for fateful decisions that might prove embarrassing.

Maybe he was the perveyor for little monkeyboy to dip into bush sr's private stash

is this the same poindexter, known as the butt in nerd-jokes?.
Maybe thats why he told bush to hire nore to spread crack to the ghettoe!?.
:)