How effective is pak da? (long)

[IronFist]

Ok, that was a stupid subject name, but I couldn't think of anything else.

Anyway, pak da seems to be one of my favorite techniques. I just recently realized that I probably over use it in proportion to the other techniques I know. When people jokingly (or seriously) throw punches at me, I find I always counter it with pak da. Ok, that's all good and all, because it seems to work well. But I just realized tonight that I think that motion has become too ingrained in me. Here's what happened:

I was at my friends' house and they were all getting ready to go out. I'm not, because I'm sick. (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=17693). I was over there getting a shot of Vodka for a medical experiment, which you can read about if you follow that link. Anyway, this guy and this girl were screwing around fighting (he goes to a MMA school), and I made some stupid male comment (:D), but I can't remember what I said. Anyway, like 10 seconds later she was standing next to me and totally jacked me in the chest (for a girl, I mean, haha). I was not expecting it at all, and I'm sick, too. Who hits a sick guy? ;) Anyway, I was thinking "****, I totally should have blocked that. Right after that I thought of pak da. Then right after that I realized that pak da would not have worked at all (it was kind of a hooking punch, chest height, she was standing to my right and punching with her left hand, so it came inwards and hit my right pec). It would have had to have been a horrible pak da to even make contact with her punching arm. Yeah, so I'm like "maybe a tan da would have worked better." But then I realized that my nervous system is so accustomed to doing pak das that doing a tan da would have required thought, therefore delay, therefore getting owned in a real fight.

So now I have some questions for the more advanced WC people here:

1. Is pak da a decent move with which to begin engagement (if you're attacked, and the attack is one which can be stopped with pak da)?

2. What height of punch is "too high" for pak da to be effective? I've pak da'ed neck high (straight) punches before but I'm not sure if there's a better solution.

3. How low is too low for pak da? I mean, I don't want to pak da a stomach height punch and end up hitting myself in the nuts. Is a gaun da or something better in this case?

4. Had the situation I described above been a real fight, what is the optimal WC way to deal with an attack from that direction/angle? Is tan da not that good, or would it have worked (especially with a pivot to my right).

5. Yeah...

IronFist

[Redd]

Too much instilling of technique, too little of concept.

[S.Teebas]

Redd is correct.

You're thinking too much. Instill the forms, not techniques. Dont fix limits on the flexability of what you see in the forms - the answers to slove almost all problems are in SNT and CK.

[kj]

Redd and S. are correct.

Trouble is, looking to the forms won't help as it should, if the concepts aren't properly ingrained in understanding and practice of the forms in the first place.

I don't think it's likely one will develop that necessary and proper foundation without aid of a good teacher. IronFist, are you still in search of one? If you have already found a good teacher, they should guide you on the right path with this, and far more effectively and thoroughly than anyone can through this medium. If not, I hope you are searching strongly. I apologize for sounding like a broken record on this point. It will make all the difference in your return on investment, and I sincerely wish you the best.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[IronFist]

I'm sure cryptic answers are fun to give, but the point is, while I'm sure the forms hold the answers to all of life's mysteries, they don't teach you about positioning or timing with respect to an opponent, nor do they teach you the limitations of a technique in said respects. The dummy helps here, and even though it doesn't fight back at least it can work with positioning and distance, etc.

Alright, I'm off to class. Flame away.

IronFist

[yenhoi]

Ironfist: first answer should be to punch her.

second answer is to check her punch (making contact) and then punch her with the same arm.

third answer is pak da.

Of course there is really no hierarchy of answers, formwork, drills and much 'chi sau' are what will really answer your question.

[yuanfen]

kj also on target. With repeated practice you can develop
a quasi pak da... but a good teacher for wing chun instruction can
expand the options that your reflexes can have. What I think that you may be missing is the "listening energy" and the early warning and correct reaction sytem that you can get from good instruction and practice.

[yenhoi]

quote ironfist:

they don't teach you about positioning or timing with respect to an opponent, nor do they teach you the limitations of a technique in said respects.

--

chi sau....


sparring helps too.

[Spark]

Why didn't you just move out of the way?

[yenhoi]

Yours questions:

1) yes.

2) yes.If something is too high/too far for you to pak it, then its not currently a threat (usually.)

3)My chinese is very limited, I dont know what a guan da is exactly, but sure! Depends on what evergy you are getting, not what technique is coming at you or what its 'level' is. Make a bridge or let your opponent make one, listen to him, hit him, hit him again, and again again again.

4) tan da would 'work', doesnt mean its 'right' or 'best' for that punch/angle/setup/scenario. You could also just step towards her and jam the punch, or step through her knocking her over, neither of which is a wing chun 'technique', but footwork is footwork and structure is structure. Old jong says , "Wing Chun is for attack!" If someone punches at you, attack them.

[fa_jing]

Ironfist - you really are missing something here. Pak da is fine against a head or shoulder height punch. In this case, it is used to deflect the punch just past your head or shoulder as you counter punch. There's sort of a middle height range of a few inches where it's not so effective, then at about rib height you can use LOW pak da, which is not fingers up but fingers horizontal! And the punch is slapped downward, so that it BARELY misses your gut or ribs due to the extra angle you are forcing the opponent's fist down. Low Pak does not move the fist to the side!

Pak Da, further more, is good to use against counters when you are punching, for instance if you give him a straight lead head punch, and he launches nearly simultaneous, your Pak sao will prevent you from BOTH getting hit by the other's punch. Although I can tell you from experience, it does you no good if you forget to use it!!

Also, Pak da isn't built to stop certain kinds of punches, like tight hooks. It is also a technique that requires a high level of precision, because the effective contact area is so small. Tan and Bon sao are a lot more forgiving, although some precision is still required.

[tparkerkfo]

Just my two cents,

It is ofcourse difficult if not impossible to give specific application advice over the internet. But that said, i think there are a couple things here.

One, is was there any contact? What does the Kuit say if there is not contact? One tells us to rush forward. Another tells us to chase shadows and cleave the center. People can focus too much on an attack and lose focus on our goals. We attack the body, center, because it is what is driving an attack. If you can disrupt the body, you can thus attack the strike that is comming. No need to always engage the attack, especially if it is off center. Have you ever chi sau with a good person and tried to attack off center? Before your attack landed they nailed you in the body? Same idea. Of course this is just a rule of thumb rather than an all out infallible rule. There may be times when you MUST block off the center.

The next thing is you were not prepared. We could analyze that in many different angles. But the end result is you were not prepared. You could take the paranoid view and not trust any one, to include your friends and/or aquatences. I too can walk up to my teacher and sucker punch him. That really isn't proving a whole lot.

I myself do use Pak a lot. I think it is a safety net. It is easy and effective to perform. A new student can grasp that one fairly easy. But it is hard to get just right if your gonna "meet" what comes. Many people swat what comes. I myself had an over relience on Bong Sau. Now I try not to use it. There are many techniques and you just gotta practice the others to understand them. I kind of think of a technique in two ways. One is the engagement, which pak, biu, or man sau can be used. Once physical contact is made, then you need to work with sensitivity and use what ever technique is appropriate, tan, jum, lop, etc in order to divert the attack somewhere. THis is just my thinking and certainly doesn't represnt what I have been taught specificly.

just some thoughts
Tom
________
Milf Punishment (http://www.****tube.com/video/25157/humiliated-milf-gets-a-severe-punishment)

[Marshdrifter]

Hi IronFist:


Originally posted by IronFist
I'm sure cryptic answers are fun to give, but the point is, while I'm sure the forms hold the answers to all of life's mysteries, they don't teach you about positioning or timing with respect to an opponent, nor do they teach you the limitations of a technique in said respects. The dummy helps here, and even though it doesn't fight back at least it can work with positioning and distance, etc.

I was taught that chum kiu contained good stuff regarding
adjusting the distance to your opponent. It's true that you need
to work out a lot of the details in chi sao, but that's what chi sao
is for. To play around with the techniques and concepts found
within the forms.

Position and timing is crucial in any martial art, but equally important in Wing Chun is sensitivity (the listening energy). This
is developed again through chi sao, but also in other two man
drills such as any pak sao/pak da drills you may have. Take the
practical experience given by these two person drills and apply
it back into your forms. It forms a sort of circle. After a point, you'll
start to learn where the pak sao is appropriate and where it really
shouldn't be used.

Ok, all this that I wrote is a vast generalization that you most
likely are already aware of, and for that I apologize. However,
past a certain point, the answers to a lot of these questions is
"it depends." In person, that is usually followed up with a request
that you show me what you mean and I take it from there. What
techniques to use and when and where to use them depends
upon the energy and positioning of the other person as well as
your own. This really doesn't come through in a written format
and you're likely to get answers about energy and forms that you
may find cryptic.

Fa_jing:


Living high - living fine - living on - Central time.
LOL! Nuts! Now I've got that song going through my head! It's
been years since I've heard it.

[reneritchie]

One technique can be almost any technique, and almost any technique can be one technique, so the concept stuff is true, but skill and attainment are the only tangibles, and if, in the end, your pak da lets you walk out of a situation unscathed, more power to you.

BTW - One of Yip Man's students (maybe Hawkins Cheung, my memory is fading with my hair color), is fond of this particular expression, I believe once paraphrasing the saying "One Pak Da to defeat all under Heaven" (the original saying, of course, was Yaat Tan Sao).

RR

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Rene,


Originally posted by reneritchie
I believe once paraphrasing the saying "One Pak Da to defeat all under Heaven" (the original saying, of course, was Yaat Tan Sao).

Apparently, that phrasing is pretty common. I've heard my teacher quote "One use of cloud hands to defeat all under Heaven" with regards to Yang Luchan and "Half step crushing fist to defeat all under Heaven" with regards to Guo Yunshen.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[S.Teebas]

they don't teach you about positioning or timing with respect to an opponent, nor do they teach you the limitations of a technique in said respects.

The forms teach A LOT about positioning! (im not talking about height of the tan sau)

What ways do you train your structure?

[fa_jing]

Marshdrifter - I think memory of that song is restricted to a small radius around here.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by S.Teebas


The forms teach A LOT about positioning! (im not talking about height of the tan sau)



I said positioning with respect to an opponent. When you practice by yourself, how can it? Note: I'm not talking about imagining where the opponent is.

IronFist

[Redd]

Originally posted by IronFist


I said positioning with respect to an opponent. When you practice by yourself, how can it? Note: I'm not talking about imagining where the opponent is.

IronFist

How do you position differently with respect to an opponent?
If your opponent is tall do you reach high?
If your opponent is short do you lean down?

[S.Teebas]

I said positioning with respect to an opponent. When you practice by yourself, how can it? Note: I'm not talking about imagining where the opponent is.

It about what you feel, not what you see. Positioning is relative.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by IronFist
I'm sure cryptic answers are fun to give, but the point is, while I'm sure the forms hold the answers to all of life's mysteries, they don't teach you about positioning or timing with respect to an opponent, nor do they teach you the limitations of a technique in said respects....

IronFist

The forms provide us with a concept or a principle for us to think about. Once we have grasp the meaning of the concept or principle, the applications of the techniques are limitless.

Do you find my answer cryptic?:)

[IronFist]

I tell you what, guys. I've been sick this whole weekend and I don't feel like typing out a reply now. I've also got a paper to do and a Japanese placement test to study for. Give me a day or two to feel better (hopefully), let me think about what you've said, and then I'll reply.

IronFist

[kj]

Hi IronFist.


Originally posted by IronFist
I'm sure cryptic answers are fun to give, but the point is, while I'm sure the forms hold the answers to all of life's mysteries, they don't teach you about positioning or timing with respect to an opponent, nor do they teach you the limitations of a technique in said respects. The dummy helps here, and even though it doesn't fight back at least it can work with positioning and distance, etc.

The forms do teach about positioning, and they do teach about limitations wrt you.

FWIW, here is the intentional sequence and emphasis in our learning and development:

[list=1]
Position
Sensitivity
Power
[/list=1]

I did not forget about Timing and Speed; they are implicit functions of Position and Sensitivity.

And of all the elements, the most critical are:

[list=1]
Position
Position
Position
[/list=1]

The forms allow us to dynamically calibrate ourselves wrt position(ing) [e.g., posture, placement, alignment, and movement].

The forms should not be mysteries, but keys to unlocking them. That is why one must first have a substantial and growing understanding of the forms, and the concepts and nuances of which they are composed. This in turn enables continuous learning and interplay between forms, exercises, and application. So while the explicit answer to the pak da question wasn't given (and cannot be conclusively given without full appreciation of all the details and dynamics of a given and unique situation), the suggestion to find seeds of understanding in the forms is sound.

I am glad to learn you have found a class. The others responding to your thread question have offered some valuable insights, which I hope will become more clear and seem less cryptic over time and with the aid of your teacher.

My apology if this still seems elusive or preachy. I don't intend it to be. It is just what makes sense to me, and how I try to utilize the interconnections for problem solving. When someone provides me with a fish for dinner, I soon get hungry again. Your desire for understanding rather than a canned solution may be your strength as well.

Hope you feel better soon.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Mr Punch]

I agree completely (again)... except about the fish! That bit must have swum on by me...!

Back to Iron's specifics:

1. Yes it is. It is a wingchun move. If it is a reflex that fits with the basic concepts it is legitimate. Don't look for it: then it isn't a reflex. Try to lose the idea of favourite techniques: I'm still trying too :o ! My favourite's usually the one that I can't remember after the event cos it just slipped through like a ghost!

2. I wouldn't do pak da on anything above your head!!! :D

3. LOL at hitting yourself in the nuts!!! Why would anyone DO that!? If your pak is that low maybe it turns into a jum at some point anyway...? You could argue that energy is different with those two, but if you're sticking to the centre anyway it should be a situational variation, not a technique variation.

4. (Cryptic warning alert!) Hope you never have to find out! But if you do, you should know what do do anyway.

5. Yeah... absolutely.

BTW I wouldn't try vodka for your symptoms, it contains some rather nasty alcohols. I swear by whisky with hot water, honey, lemon, ginger and garlic in moderation... dunno if it does any good but it sure makes you feel better! Seems to soothe the throat and raise the temperature a little to aid the 'retreat from Moscow' effect on the wee bacteria.




So KJ, maybe you should ask them for a bigger fish... or something more substantial... or cook something yourself, ya lazy booger!

[ZIM]

TROUT A LA MEUNIERE


1/4 cup all-purpose flour,
1/4 teaspoon black pepper,
4 teaspoon fresh lemon juice,
4 teaspoon parsley, chopped
1 teaspoon salt,
4 - trout, fillets, 4 ounces each
4 tablespoon unsalted butter,
4 tablespoon vegetable oil

1. Season trout with salt and pepper. Dust with flour, and shake off any excess.

2. Heat half of the oil in a saute pan over medium-high heat (2 tablespoons oil per four servings). Once the oil begins to quiver, add 2 fillets. (Adding trout from front to back will help avoid hot oil splashes.)

3. Cook until first side is golden-brown, approximately 3 to 4 minutes. Turn over and cook until second side is golden, about 2 minutes.

4. Remove trout; keep warm. Repeat with remaining fillets.

5. Pour off any excess oil from the pan. Retain any browned flour in the pan. (This will add flavor to a sauce.)

6. Add butter and heat over medium heat until melted and light-brown.

7. Add lemon juice; cook 2 minutes. Stir in parsley and adjust seasoning as needed.

8. Pour sauce over trout fillets. Garnish with lemon wedges, if desired.


OOPS, sorry

:p

[kj]

Mat:

"Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime"
- Author unknown


Zim:

Don't be sorry! I'll happily pass it along to my husband. ;):)

Regards,
- kj

[kj]

P.S.


Originally posted by Mat
I swear by whisky with hot water, honey, lemon, ginger and garlic in moderation... dunno if it does any good but it sure makes you feel better!

That's traditional medicine where I come from, called a "hot toddy."



So KJ, maybe you should ask them for a bigger fish... or something more substantial... or cook something yourself, ya lazy booger!

LOL. When it comes to cooking, I am a lazy booger. :D

Regards,
- kj

[ZIM]

BUT a little rude an derailing [french ppl have such GAUL!] so back to 'pak da' whatever that is;)

[yuanfen]

I think I will take the hot toddy and the fish!
Which first?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by kj
I am glad to learn you have found a class. The others responding to your thread question have offered some valuable insights, which I hope will become more clear and seem less cryptic over time and with the aid of your teacher.

Whoa, dude I wish! Where did I say I'd found a class? Maybe in my sick delirium I typed the wrong thing.

IronFist

[YungChun]

Very sorry, but I must comment on this:

You requested that advanced members answer your questions:


Originally posted by IronFist

So now I have some questions for the more advanced WC people here:


Then when people like kj take the time to answer your questions you have the gaul to tell them:


Originally posted by IronFist
I'm sure cryptic answers are fun to give, but the point is, while I'm sure the forms hold the answers to all of life's mysteries, they don't teach you about positioning or timing with respect to an opponent, nor do they teach you the limitations of a technique in said respects....

Are you trying to learn from these 'advanced people' or are you trying to teach them? Indeed if you feel you don't have the answers I would suggest that you close your mouth and open your ears - in other words empty your cup. If you think that the tea you are drinking is missing something then taste theirs - but instead you throw their tea in their face and keep drinking yours - this is not the path to learning it is the path to ingnorance.

Amazingly, despite what seems to me at least to be blatent disregard and disrespect for the time and effort that these 'more advanced' people invested to assist you they keep trying - with little appreciation from you - what nice people.

Good luck as you move along the path of Kung-Fu knowledge - you will need it.

[nvisblfist]

Pak is only as effective as the practitioner using it. This goes for most techniques. If one is skilled then Pak Sau ( if you don't want to hit a drunk girl) or Pak Da ( if you don't mind hitting a drunk girl) can be used in most situations, even against a hook if the foot work and/or timing are there, at the least a deflection though not perfect may occur. If I had the choice of getting hit full force versus getting a partial Pak delfection with a counter attack, I'll take my chances. A skilled wing chun practitioner lives to fight using only Pak Da and its myriad variations. You must research this if you want to reach the higher levels.

[IronFist]

YungChun,

First of all, I have nothing again kj's answer. The answer I didn't like was:

Too much instilling of technique, too little of concept.

I was mad cuz I asked 4 questions and got that as an answer. That doesn't really help, does it?

You said:
Are you trying to learn from these 'advanced people' or are you trying to teach them?

What are you talking about? I'm trying to learn from them. I just expect clear answers.

Indeed if you feel you don't have the answers I would suggest that you close your mouth and open your ears - in other words empty your cup. If you think that the tea you are drinking is missing something then taste theirs - but instead you throw their tea in their face and keep drinking yours - this is not the path to learning it is the path to ingnorance.

Ok. Talk about cryptic answers...

Alright, maybe I'm wrong to expect a direct answer.

I'm not here to argue, though. If you're not going to contribute to the discussion then please don't reply. If I ask a question and I don't understand the answer, I'm going to question the answer. Only a fool would be content with an answer he doesn't understand.

:rolleyes:

IronFist

[kj]

Originally posted by IronFist


Whoa, dude I wish! Where did I say I'd found a class? Maybe in my sick delirium I typed the wrong thing.

IronFist

You wrote earlier



Alright, I'm off to class. Flame away.


Apparently you meant a different sort of class. My misunderstanding.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

P.S. I may be one of the "guys" but I am not a "dude."

[yuanfen]

Ironfist sez:I said positioning with respect to an opponent. When you practice by yourself, how can it? Note: I'm not talking about imagining where the opponent is.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ironfist: KJ and others did try to give you answers-but you are being overly sensitive.
I admire your attempt to learn without a teacher. But no teaching and irregular teaching can show in a deep and serious art.
Thus, even when there is no opponent- every motion in slt has great details of positioning.Knowing the gross features of technique or even the sequence of motions in the forms are not enough for good kung fu. First you have to have the correct motion yourself before you adjust it-relative to the opponent.
Chi Sau when well done helps teach the dynamics of the adjustment.The pak alone hasa lot of details- so does the da.
Working them together involves subtle chum kiu skills.
The pak has to have the right balance of softness and positional strength, otherwise it will break down against a strong opponent or you can hurt your wrist.
Besides, in the original scenario you gave---without knowing the
space, time, distance details- a variety of althernative scenarios
could be appropriate....including no technique at all- moving or jamming for instance...if you have trained your structural components.

[IronFist]

Haha, oops, I'm sorry. I meant I was off to class at college. Not WC class :D

****, I wish it was WC class :(

IronFist