Yip Man Issued Teaching Certificates....

[John D]

For the Yip Man Lineage people....

Question - Just wondering how many WC teachers who claim that they learned WC to a competent level (usually more than six years) from the late Yip Man can produce Yip Man's teaching certificate?

Yip Man gave teaching/finishing certificate to competent people who finished the WC open hand system (weapons not included). The issued Certificates had a special YM stamp (Chop) stamped on them.

Beyond the "known" old timers within the Yip Man lineage, it would be interesting to see how many present day instructors can produce this document.

Likewise, how many younger instructors today have a VTAA Instructor's Certificate signed by a known elder?

I always advise new students to look for these documents...there are too many cheap people cheating the public these days.

[yuanfen]

John D.:said-Likewise, how many younger instructors today have a VTAA Instructor's Certificate signed by a known elder?

I always advise new students to look for these documents...there are too many cheap people cheating the public these days.
-------------------------------------------------------------
John..
An honest question.
As the VTAA has evolved many old timers have died, moved and become inactive- except for a few like TST.
In your opinion what is the current quality control at the VTAA?
joy

[canglong]

JohnD Good question, I am wondering if it would be actually possible to research this ourselves. A record of the certificates have to be on file somewhere and accessable somehow, hmmmm.

[tparkerkfo]

Interesting topic,

I have never heard of any certificates issued by Yip Man, though that doesn't mean they do or do not exist. I wonder if he passed these out throughout his career starting with Lun Gai in Futsan, or if it was something he did towards the end after many of the senior students left.

You also mention that people should ask for such certifications. I wonder, who is known to have such certifications? I may have to switch ; )

Tom
________
Motorcycle Tires (http://www.motorcycle-tech.com/tires/motorcycle-tires)

[planetwc]

So, if Lok Yiu doesn't have a cert then he didn't learn Wing Chun from Yip Man to a level of competancy?

Not too long ago there was some weekend seminar with some of the HK old timers where certifications were issued here in the US.

Does that mean those folks have completed the Wing Chun System training? Did ANYONE who paid their cash FLUNK and not get a certificate?

Seems more like a revenue generation thing than a skill devleopment thing.

No doubt there MAY be some recognized elders with these documents who also have the skill to back them up.

I wonder if Allan Lee and Duncan Leung have such certificates as they were private students of Yip Man? Does William Cheung have one? What about Leung Ting?

Are there any of the certificates on display in the new Ip Man hall of fame?

[kj]

Hi John.

This is also the first I've heard of such certificates from Ip Man, though well aware of those from the VTAA and similar sources.

I too would like to see more tangible evidence of their existence. I never hear Ip Man's students flaunting them, never saw photo copies or on the internet, never even heard anyone mention them before. With all the bickering about who has the goods and who doesn't, it is hard to believe this hasn't come up before if they really exist, regardless of their true genesis, purpose or merit.

I am not trying to play devil's advocate, but my naturally skeptical mind can't help wanting more. Even a list of who you think got them or who didn't, and on what basis you believe that would be enough to get a possibly productive debate going. Or at least a flame war with a new twist, LOL.

FWLIW, I would be highly reluctant to trust any such a piece of paper as a reliable indicator of quality instruction from any source in Wing Chun. I wish assurances of quality were as simple as "show me your papers" or the color of your belt.

But again, I'm a natural born skeptic, the value of which has been born out in my personal experience, so it could just be me.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Grendel]

Originally posted by John D

I always advise new students to look for these documents...there are too many cheap people cheating the public these days.

Hi John,

I can't provide anyone with Wing Chun certification, and never will, but I'll provide a "Certificate of Sanity," suitable for framing to anyone who believes that Yip Man issued certificates.

Regards,

[BeiKongHui]

I have a receipt from an Opium Den does that count?

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by John D
For the Yip Man Lineage people....

Question - Just wondering how many WC teachers who claim that they learned WC to a competent level (usually more than six years) from the late Yip Man can produce Yip Man's teaching certificate?

Yip Man gave teaching/finishing certificate to competent people who finished the WC open hand system (weapons not included). The issued Certificates had a special YM stamp (Chop) stamped on them.

Beyond the "known" old timers within the Yip Man lineage, it would be interesting to see how many present day instructors can produce this document.

Likewise, how many younger instructors today have a VTAA Instructor's Certificate signed by a known elder?

I always advise new students to look for these documents...there are too many cheap people cheating the public these days.
Hi John,

Would you post a picture of your Yip Man certificate so we can see what we're missing?

I've never heard of Yip Man passing out certification.

IMO, no one completes the system, just new insights open up at each progressive plateau of skill acquisition.

Thanks.

[Tongue_of_Colibob]

John, were Yeung Sifu's teachers (Wong Long and Wong Tsok) given such certificates?

Just a curious question.....the history of the Hawaii WC clan has always been of interest to me. Likewise, is there any other info you could share with me, besides the information on the Hawaii WC website, about Robert Yeung, Wong Long, or Wong Tsok?

Thanks

Jesse Wiseman

[John D]

To: Tongue_of_Colibob

The Yip Man Certificates are real......


Wong Chok, Wong Long, and Robert Yeung have the YM certificates. I am sure most, it not all, the old timers who completed the Wooden Dummy got a certificate from Yip Man.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by John D
To: Tongue_of_Colibob

The Yip Man Certificates are real......

Wong Chok, Wong Long, and Robert Yeung have the YM certificates. I am sure most, it not all, the old timers who completed the Wooden Dummy got a certificate from Yip Man.

The old man must have really needed the money. To quote my sig, "This is a travesty of a mockery of a sham."

Even if you were to produce the evidence, that's not the point. The point isn't what went on in the final desperate days of Yip Man's life, but what comes after. If we in his line can clean up the unfortunate parts of the legacy, sweep out the deadwood and others to integrate WC's disparate standards, the sky's the limit.

The path to this is not in issuing certificates.

Regards,

[anerlich]

Did Yip Man receive a certification from Chan Wa Shun or Leung Bik?

[rubthebuddha]

what happens if we go back and find out that ng mui didn't earn her certificate?

all those centures, man ... :(

[tparkerkfo]

John D,

This is interesting, I have never heard this. Is there any way we could see it? This would be something that I would consider pretty valuable.

To the others,
I concure that a cert is not the end all be all. In fact it is just a paper. However, Tell me, honestly, how you would feel if Yip Man gave you a cert in wing chun. Easy to criticize when you aint got one. 8 P

As for me, I got 2 or 3 certs from Eddie Chong. What does that mean? Nothing, but I got 'em. I still suck LOL.

Tom
________
PANIC DISORDERS FORUMS (http://www.health-forums.org/panic-disorders/)

[David Jamieson]

If you find who holds ip man' chops, you'll find one who can issue the certificate.

The wing chun style lives in it's practitioners. While a lineage bearer who holds a certificate certainly can justify their claim to fame, Kung fu is in the hands and heart. it does not belong to anyone but those who learn and practice it. Some are very good at it, some, not so good. Most teachers are without question competent.

The wing chun system has been codified for some time, ip man cleary enjoyed sharing the system. In fact he gave it openly to the whole world. The same way any master of kungfu would give his art to the world.

There are moments in our lives though... ;) i suppose.

peace

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
If you find who holds ip man' chops, you'll find one who can issue the certificate.

Well, if you believe that, how much would you pay for an authentic autographed copy of the Ten Commandments signed by Moses? I just happen to have a few copies left. :rolleyes:


The wing chun style lives in it's practitioners. While a lineage bearer who holds a certificate certainly can justify their claim to fame, Kung fu is in the hands and heart. it does not belong to anyone but those who learn and practice it. Some are very good at it, some, not so good. Most teachers are without question competent.

The last sentence above is patently and ridiculously false. Most teachers, if you mean Wing Chun teachers, are incompetent to convey the whole art. Most don't have the training and the time in, nor the experience. There has been no quality control for most of them--a few years in the art at best, and it's hang out the shingle. There are notable exceptions, but they are few.


The wing chun system has been codified for some time,

Also, not true. Certain lineages may be able to claim this truthfully, but often only so long as the Sigung or his apt pupil lives.


ip man cleary enjoyed sharing the system.
Sorry to be so contradictary, but check the archives. Ip Man was very selective and grudging about sharing the system. Probably only the first three and Wong Shun Leung got most of it, but even they often don't/didn't claim their study was complete.


In fact he gave it openly to the whole world. The same way any master of kungfu would give his art to the world.

Too ambiguous for me to disagree with. :)


peace

Peace be with you. Tov Shabbas.

Regards,

[David Jamieson]

I have to disagree that most teachers are not competent. If that was the case, the style would be dead. It isn't.

I also have to disagree that ip man wasn't generous. He was photographed, he was written about, he gave advice, he spread teh word and had many students. Hardly the mark of someone who would "grudgingly" impart the style.

There are numerous codified (written) texts on teh wing chun style. All over the place. There's a museum on the style for goodness sake! How many other styles have a museum?!

The chops remark was sarcastic. of course anyone can make a chops, they're for sale everywhere, find the marks you want and get them inscribed and voila...chops to stamp your parchment.

Wing Chun is no big secret, it's hard work like the rest of Kungfu.

peace

[quiet man]

I know nothing about Yip Man's certificates, but here's few thoughts on certs in general: my sifu spent 9 years with the late master WSL. I don't know whether he received a certificate or not, but I know he recieved the knowledge, and that's all that matters to me (personally). OTOH, my sifu doesn't issue certificates (unless specifically requested).
To cut a long story short: if you can do WC, you don't need certs; and if you can't, no piece of paper will help you. So, if you have some kind of diploma signed by Yip Man or any other master, I'm happy to hear that (no sarcasm intended), but if you don't, I won't think any less of you :) .

[tparkerkfo]

Hi,

To say that Yip Man was a reluctant teacher is probably over stating some what. Yip Man did teach many people over the years. Some became long time friends. Some say that he only taught because he needed money, but he seems to have taught in Futsan before he fell on harder times. So it is really hard to say. What we do know is Yip Man did not teach most people directly. By most I mean towards the end he had a rather large group and the teaching was primarily done by others. We also know that many people did not learn everything directly. I beleive each of the first couple students were all missing atleast one of the forms from direct Yip Man teaching.

I wouldn't say he was reluctant as much as probably selective. He taught and he taught well those that he wanted to teach. Lok Yiu, TST, Leung Sheung, Wong Sheung Leung, Ho Kam Ming, and a few others all have excellent skills.

As far as codifying and enjoying sharing, I think these are kind of silly. Although he probably enjoyed sharing, he only directly shared with a small group. Probably the people he liked and got along with. But he did not teach every one. Codifying, Look at TST, Lok Yiu, and Leung Sheung, and WSL. each were early students and most had a long time relationship with Yip Man. But there are LOTS of differences between.

But in any case, I would still love to see one of these certs.

Tom
________
Ffm Latina (http://www.****tube.com/categories/548/latina/videos/1)

[reneritchie]

Tom,

Yip Man taught in Foshan after he fell on hard times there, after the Japanese occupied and his ancestral wealth was stripped from him (the same time period Sum Nung's family lost their wealth and he was forced to take a job as a waiter at Tien Hoi restaurant).

BTW- I'd also venture that if some learned "it all" but didn't really care to realize or pass it on, and some others learned "a lot" and really worked hard to cultivate it and propagate it, the latter might be of more interest to someone who wanted to learn.

RR

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
I have to disagree that most teachers are not competent. If that was the case, the style would be dead. It isn't.

True, Wing Chun is not dead, but what is being called Wing Chun by a lot of stiffs is. Some culling should be done to weed out all the mutts. It's a lot like the phases of Kenpo and TKD when there were schools on just about every corner. Seems to me that every TKD school has a display of trophys declaring their teacher/student is the "world champion." Notice how they never say which world? :)


I also have to disagree that ip man wasn't generous. He was photographed, he was written about, he gave advice, he spread teh word and had many students. Hardly the mark of someone who would "grudgingly" impart the style.
I stand by my choice of words. Ip Man touched hands with only a few students. Some students were so impressed when he deigned to touch their hands on rare occasions that they wouldn't wash their hands afterwards for a long time.


There are numerous codified (written) texts on teh wing chun style. All over the place. There's a museum on the style for goodness sake! How many other styles have a museum?!

You don't need a museum if the style is alive. Of course, the Yip Man Tong honors the founders of the system. But, in itself, it does nothing to preserve the style. As for codification, the entire sum of what's been written does not include a fraction of the style's entirety.


The chops remark was sarcastic. of course anyone can make a chops, they're for sale everywhere, find the marks you want and get them inscribed and voila...chops to stamp your parchment.

Correct.


Wing Chun is no big secret, it's hard work like the rest of Kungfu.

The first "hard work" is in finding some legitimate teacher and to not be taken in by some of the proliferating wannabee kung fu teachers.


peace
And also to you.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
As for me, I got 2 or 3 certs from Eddie Chong. What does that mean? Nothing, but I got 'em. I still suck LOL.

If I were you, I'd go ask for my money back. :)

Regards,

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Grendal,

I didn't say the info sucked, just that I do. LOL. I realize the rift between my current teacher and my previous sigung and I expect comments such as these. Ken is quite remarkable and I really value the time I spend with him, though it is limited. Dispite what many in his organization feel, Eddie is fairly accomplished and better than many others I know. He's no Ken, but then how many are? LOL. The mony was well spent. I just understand where I stand in reagards to wing chun skill. LOL.

Tom

PS Thanks Rene for the clarification. I always forget the details. LOL.
________
MARY JANE (http://maryjanes.info/)

[Grendel]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
I didn't say the info sucked, just that I do. LOL. I realize the rift between my current teacher and my previous sigung and I expect comments such as these.

Comments such as what? If all you got from your teacher was 2 or 3 certificates from your Sigung and no Wing Chun skill, you deserve your money back. The certificates just make it worse because they imply a level of competency. After all, you're not saying you studied directly from Eddie are you?


Dispite what many in his organization feel, Eddie is fairly accomplished and better than many others I know.

Have you ever heard any disparagement of Eddie's hands? I'd find this surprising. Back when he studied under Ken, Eddie was considered a fair hand.


The mony was well spent. I just understand where I stand in reagards to wing chun skill. LOL.

Which brings to mind a Cantonese saying: Mm Yan Chi Dai, which means "stealing from other people's children." This applies to unqualified persons who claim to teach Wing Chun but do not convey the art correctly or in its entirety.

Regards,