studying chinese and japanese arts simultaneously

[Falcor]

Any of you folks study a CMA and a JMA together at teh same tiem? How do you find them to be? I am most interested to hear, especially, if it's some combination of hard and soft arts - i.e. I do hung gar and aikido and find the two to focus on two very different but in some funny way related physical skills.

[Ford Prefect]

Are you a pink, flying dog? If so, how does this effect your gripping ability for the wrist locks in Aikido?

[yenhoi]

pink flying cloud dragon

pagan.

[Sho]

I'm sure they will clash well together. Why wouldn't they?

[Ford Prefect]

Did my sheep fur chaps give me away?

[SevenStar]

I don't have any problems. I was doing longfist and judo, now shuai chiao, bjj and judo and I have no real probs at all. When you are trying to train in "soft" and "hard" styles, then yes, you might, as the principles will be different. I would imagine you could get confused. two hard styles may have different mechanics, you would just have to learn them both and use what you prefer.

[Ajax]

In a manner of speaking. I train at Temple Kung Fu (yes I know it's a McDojo) which is actually kempo karate. Possibly with some kung fu thrown in, although I don't know how much, or what style it might be. It's good stuff ;)

[Former castleva]

Learning harmony is never bad. :)
They will probably do well together,all that separates them is name after all.

I´m no hung ga but as far as I know,it has tons of internal stuff in it besides external if not more when you go further.

[David Jamieson]

I have studied Karate as well as Shaolin martial arts.

They both have there merits, but frankly,I am uncertain about how well they mix when trained in tandem on the same timeline.

They will leak into each other and the end result will be neither.

Having said that, you may wind up with something quite useful, or useless depending on your ability to understand and apply what you are learning.

Aikido contains many things that you simply won't find in a lot of Chinese arts until the very advanced levels of some styles. THat's the nature of teh two.

I can't see an issue with working your ground skills alongside your striking skill as they have widely differing principles of applied combat.

But, if you were working one primarily striking art with another and both had different methods, then you might wind up with conflict and it likely will take you a lot longer than necessary to learn either one.

just my opinion

peace

[HuangKaiVun]

Done properly, Hung Ga has a lot of the same chin na mentality that Aikido does.

The difference is that there's much more emphasis on strength and power in Hung Ga, particularly when it comes to striking.

If you practice them both successfully, falcor, that's great.

There are quite a few people who can practice more than one style and gain combat proficiency in the process.

[dezhen2001]

hi falcor :)

before i trained many skills at the same time... mainly shotokan karate, but also boxing/muay thai, aikido and shorinji kempo.

Nowadays i study my Sifus skills: wing chun, hard qigong, wild goose qigong, but also still do some Aikido here at university as i really respect it as a skill.

the footwork is very different, but they use whole body and energy in a good way. Also its good for me to be able to breakfall without being damaged and have the feeling of someone grappling and controlling me.

hmmm... i dont know much about hung gar, but aikido is very good for learning about distance and timing, as well as how to control someones centre and body...

if you enjoy it dont worry :)
dawood

[Mr Punch]

I do aiki and wingchun.

Despite the obviously large differences

- power generation from different parts of the foot,
- (thus) different stances,
- cutting energy versus explosive energy etc,

I find there are many similarities

- the 'yin-yang' of acceptance and redirection outwards,
- the sinking and splitting energies,
- triangular structure for irimi,
- huen bo steps (think maybe hung gar has these too?)
- rooting through the tanden

I also do kendo which shares 'elbow energy' with wing chun, and a similar head-on mentality!!!

As soon as I get enough money and manage to lengthen each day to 26 or so hours, I'll take up boxing and bjj. Then the fun will really start!

[sing fu]

Japanese as a race much prefer to grapple than strike. I've been living in Japan for around five years now, and the only street fights I've seen (outside of trained kickboxer street thugs) have been push-me pull-you type affairs. Young kids would be trained in sumo/judo as physical education, so most men have some hands-on experience, and this is taken into fighting too.

Aikido and traditional jujutsu came from this culture, adding the need to respond to weapons attacks - for example, with the sword, the majority of schools practice devoted one-step one-attack moves. Atemi, or striking when setting up a lock/throw, can be said to be much less developed than the chinese styles, where as the japanese grappling arts response to weapons/grappling attacks more developed. They also developed greater skill in grappling with weapons (disarming and restraining by locking etc with the staff or sword). The chinese arts focus more on striking to incompacitate and knock the guy down, rather than grappling.

BUT, some people say 'aikido is irimi' - a punch can also be irimi, a lock can be irimi.

I think it's important to examine different arts - wing chun, for example, teaches you how to defend against multiple, rapid attacks - traditional aikido only teaches against one-step one-attack moves. Wing chun also teaches you to defend against non-linear attacks like hooks and uppercuts - more developed striking than found in most japanese repetoires.

As I said before though, aikido does have a lot of great grappling/weapons application, and a lot of disruptive movement like that found in biu gee.

Let's talk a lot more about this!:)

[sing fu]

Hi Mat,

I'm in the Tokyo area, just wondering if you're training Wing Chun in Japan at the moment? Could you give me the details for your kwoon? I'd really appreciate it!

[Mr Punch]

Currently kwoonless. Plenty of training though!

PMed.

See you soon!

:)

[Falcor]

thanks for all the replies. I've found that definitely there are differences between HG and aikido, but also some subtle similarities too. I also find that the two arts teach similar concepts of whole body energy and balance and power in different ways and emphasis - i.e. in my HG, power from stances are taught explicitly and balance is taught implicitly, but in aikido, it's the reverse, there is a greater explicit emphasis on balance and power in techniques is an implicit result that is derived from that. Anyway, I'm having fun and learning useful things so all is well.

Sing Fu, I thanks for your reply - I was wondering about the exact nature of why JMA empahszes grappling more than striking, and the reverse for CMA - they both have aspects of both skills, but one tends to prefer one over the other, I think. My theory is that JMA is derived from armor-wearing batle skills so in this context, grappling is preferable to striking. I'm thinking that in CMA, a lot of the arts we see were developed in a civilian context (i.e. without armor) so striking is emphasized. What do you think?

Mat, glad to hear from another fellow who does CMA and JMA. How have you found both of your art's skills manifesting when you use them (i.e. sparring?) I find that I am doing tenkan a lot more when I sparr in my HG class instead of simply sidestepping. intersting effect, I think.

[Mr Punch]

I found against karate that the footwork (irimi or tenkan) and body positioning (the angles in regards to the linearity of the karate) from aiki gave me a huge advantage.

Against wingchun, tenkan is a quick way to get nailed, unless:

1) you are really fast and
2) you can use your structure uncompromisingly as a tai atari to really occupy their space.

After that though, you really have to get straight back onto centreline to capitulate on their broken body structure, or they just regain theirs and kick your ass. Ideally of course, most aiki techniques should occupy the opponent's (sorry - partner's) centreline anyway, or at least have some direct connection to their centre of mass.

The irimi footwork of aiki is similar to a rooted entry in WC anyway, but I have to be careful not to put too much weight on my front foot for too long, or the Chunner will brutalise my legs. It soon gets you out of the tendency to lock your legs that many aikidoka have.

The kendo footwork however, though it is all from a straight legged front stance, compliments the WC quite nicely if you need to really bear downwards on them (and they don't know what to do!). Plus the kendo footwork is very fast, which helps the WC footwork.

The aiki locks sometimes come on by accident, but would be bloody difficult to take to any conclusion other than a quick distraction or structure breaker. The throws are usually easy (if you have already taken the centreline on the inside)!

Sorry for the essay, that's about it for now... may not have made much sense, in a hurry!

[sing fu]

Falcor,

If you look back into Japanese history their first forms of fighting were formalized as sumo. Add this to little unarmed combat with other races (excluding the introduction of stylized chinese striking and gungfu by Chin Genpin in the 1700s - which broadened J. jujutsu's repetoire forever). I'd say the effects of armoured fighting came later, but have been lost in most arts today - in the Edo Period most jujutsu schools started to change the big, broad movements of armoured fighting to the crisper non-armoured, complex locks/throws, and the striking we were just talking about (effective when not in armour). So as a race I'd say the japanese were into armed warfare, and would close to the clinch with weapons instead of striking.

Since most young japanese men have sumo/judo (close distance grappling) experience, arts like aikido/jujutsu were designed to counter that from a medium, rather than close, distance, which is a closer distance to wingchun/hunggar than sumo/judo is.

Mat,

I'd love to come check out your training soon - sounds like you've got a good experiential base in the cross-over of Japanese/Chinese arts!

SF

[Mr Punch]

It's all talk...!:D ;)

Seriously dood, just checked out the MA resume you sent my PM, and I don't know if you'll learn anything from me!!! Where do you do that stuff?! And can you get me an intro?!

You're welcome to come along anyway... we'll continue this PM... Sorry board (bored!).

BTW, I agree about the J-fights...! Coincidentally, split one up this morning on the train, lots of fierce eye contact, grabbing throats and hair... etc. Some obachan were getting trampled so I got involved (unfortunately trampling them some more...! :eek: !) and it was bloody difficult trying to pull them apart... they were like limpets! Thought I was going to have to hit them to soften them up a bit, realised they weren't actually doing any damage to each other, other than loss of face, and fortunately I think they were so surprised at a gaijin getting involved (and using my wee stock of threatening Japanese!) that they chilled.

[sing fu]

Hey Mat,

It all SOUNDS good - just wait til we meet and you see how poor my real skills are :p

Wow, I hear what you're saying about fights over here! I saw one about half a year ago where two old guys in their late-sixties were getting territorial about a mama-san of a local sunakku bar, and I swear one guy grabbed the other and oosoto-gari-ed him to the ground and started flipping out judo-style on him.

I remember some of the racial fights back in (junior) high school in Australia - most of my asian friends (HK, vietnam, cambodia, laos, thai) used to defend themselves with plenty of hits and kicks. The younger generation of Japanese seem more influenced by K-1 and kickboxing than their parents though.

[Shadow Dragon]

Sing-Fu.

K1 and to a large degree pride have influenced the younger generation a lot.

Funnily enough I still see mostly "round-Eyes" at our local BJJ/Kickboxing school.

Hehe, noticed that their kampan had a hole kicked/punched into it last week.

Most Japanese fights that I have sen seems to be mostly posturing and trying to make yourslef look tougher to get the Opponent to give in.

Many Guys tried to give me Lip, but back down when I ask to come over and let's have a go at it. *)
Not sure what shocks them more that I can argue with them in japanese AND call them names or that I want to fight.

Easiest way to break up a fight in japan:

Grab them by their labels and say: "Ooi, koban ni ikimashoo."
See how quickly they get apologetic and try to worm away.

Cheers.

[sing fu]

Shadow Dragon and Mat,

This is really good. I've been thinking for a while about 'verbal commands' - directing, or at least demonstrating to by-standers that you're trying to, an aggressor with instructions to de-escalate a confrontation.

For example, in an English-speaking country, if someone were to attempt to accost another person, you might start off with 'can I help you?' - which breaks the typical confrontational '**** off'/'what do you want?' etc..

Here in Japan, I guess it translates to 'nanika you wa arimasu?'. Do you guys have much experience here?

[Shadow Dragon]

Sing Fu.

Tough in japan, due to the kohai/senpai mentality.

Japanese somehow need someone stronger/tougher to guide them.
The respect authority and strength a lot.
Hence they been looking up to the few countries that could beat them.

So I don't think it really matters what you say, but how you say it and how you behave.

I used to hang with the Guardian Angels a bit. Plus, my Job allows me to see japanese at their worst. and their best.

Just my Opinion.

[chingei]

Originally posted by sing fu
Japanese as a race much prefer to grapple than strike.

what the hell is this crap?

[chingei]

Originally posted by sing fu

Since most young japanese men have sumo/judo experience,


????????????????????????????????????????

[chingei]

Originally posted by Shadow Dragon

Funnily enough I still see mostly "round-Eyes" at our local BJJ/Kickboxing school.



Most Japanese fights that I have sen seems to be mostly posturing and trying to make yourslef look tougher to get the Opponent to give in.

Many Guys tried to give me Lip, but back down when I ask to come over and let's have a go at it. *)

Easiest way to break up a fight in japan:

Grab them by their labels and say: "Ooi, koban ni ikimashoo."
See how quickly they get apologetic and try to worm away.

Cheers.

this stuff is really beginning to smack of racial prejudice.

most fights "in the world" are guys who would much rather get some posturing in for the crew than to really mix it up (like you, apparently "yeah, man they back down when they see how bad I am" "I grab 'em by the collar and tell 'em how it is"~gimme a break). most guys "in the world" are not interested enough in brawling to bother with a pain in the ass with the cops.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Shadow Dragon


Japanese somehow need someone stronger/tougher to guide them.


Give this **** a rest. This is degenerating into open racism.

[Shadow Dragon]

Chingei.

You in Japan?
Or talking from experience after living over here?

if you think this is bad, try the Guys over on E-Budo.

Cheers.

[Stacey]

Many Many CMA's practice tai chi w/ their arts.


AIKIDO is stolen TAI CHI. Usheba took it from China.

Thanks to the Japanese not caring much for secrets, you have it faster. yeah Aikido. Its one very small part of tai chi, but still one worth training in. They don't clash, you just can't see the similarities yet.

[sing fu]

Chingei,

As a eurasian studying both japanese and chinese arts, I take offence at your suggestion this thread is racist - we are simply talking about cultures of fighting.

Seems like this thread has hit a raw nerve in you. We are talking about tendencies in common fighting here - there is also another thread active where I and others are discussing tendencies in other cultures too. If you have something to add, jump in with some well-structured debate.

My commentary about japanese grappling tendencies is based on the fact traditional unarmed arts - lets call them taijutsu (koshinomawari, taijutsu, jujutsu, torite, etc) and their decendent arts of aikido and judo used strikes as set-ups for gyakute, nage, shime and other tactics, but could not 'box' with those strikes.. THAT is why karate was so popular with it's introduction to mainland japan.

As I said - join us with some detailed, structured debate - looking forward to hearing from you!

[Shadow Dragon]

Chingei.

Have fun calling me a racist, BOTH my Wife and my Son are Japanese Citizens as are my in-laws.

There are only 2 Gai-Jin at my Kwoon, Sifu us Chinese the rest are Japanese.

I am also the only Gai-Jin at my Company out of 400 Employees.

Chill out.

Peace.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Shadow Dragon
Chingei.

You in Japan?
Or talking from experience after living over here?

if you think this is bad, try the Guys over on E-Budo.

Cheers.

not currently, but off and on and for business and etc for the past decade or so.

don't get me started on e-budo. a disgrace

butwhatareyagonnado?

[chingei]

Originally posted by Shadow Dragon
Chingei.

Have fun calling me a racist, BOTH my Wife and my Son are Japanese Citizens as are my in-laws.



don't get started on that. sounds like the guy who beats his wife but swears he loves her.

no "get out of stupid comments free" card

[Shadow Dragon]

Originally posted by chingei


not currently, but off and on and for business and etc for the past decade or so.

don't get me started on e-budo. a disgrace

butwhatareyagonnado?

Meet you and buy you a beer??

Cheers.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Shadow Dragon


Meet you and buy you a beer??

Cheers.

next time I'm in town, I'd be glad to. Its sort of my specialty. I'm testing for my black liver soon. :D

[Shadow Dragon]

Originally posted by chingei


don't get started on that. sounds like the guy who beats his wife but swears he loves her.

no "get out of stupid comments free" card

I am involved here at the grass-root level and plan on spending a long time in japan.
So, yes, I can criticize the place that I choose to live in.

Many of my views are shared by plenty of japanese I know.

Sowhatyougonnadoaboutit?

Cheers.

[chingei]

Originally posted by sing fu
Chingei,

As a eurasian studying both japanese and chinese arts, I take offence at your suggestion this thread is racist - we are simply talking about cultures of fighting.

!

no no. there have been overt refernces to racial dispositions that are not only specious and ill-considered, but that can only weaken your historical hypothesis (which I don't buy either).

this is just my gentle and considerate way of expressing my humble opinion:cool:

[Shadow Dragon]

Chingei.

Let me knwo next time you are in town and we arrange a getogether.

Maybe I can show some of the lesser known sides of Japan.
;)

Cheers.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Shadow Dragon


So, yes, I can criticize the place that I choose to live in.



this is a syndrome I've noted in alot of ex-pats. the almost militant defense of the presumption that settling in for a while absolves all other sins.

Its a way of declaring your 'cred' but it doesn't come across well at all.

I guess that in other circumstances you would consider your words more carefully. Just a guess

[chingei]

Originally posted by Shadow Dragon
Chingei.

Let me knwo next time you are in town and we arrange a getogether.

Maybe I can show some of the lesser known sides of Japan.
;)

Cheers.

If it involves waking up in the gutter in Roppongi, I've seen it.





(but maybe I need to see it again...)

[Shadow Dragon]

Originally posted by chingei


this is a syndrome I've noted in alot of ex-pats. the almost militant defense of the presumption that settling in for a while absolves all other sins.

Its a way of declaring your 'cred' but it doesn't come across well at all.

I guess that in other circumstances you would consider your words more carefully. Just a guess

No I wouldn't.

I have lived in a few countries and my opinions are based on those experiences.
My japanese Wife also lived abroad for a few years and shares mine.

"I mean what I say, I say what I mean and I say mean things."

There is no perfect country (besides the US of A of course :P ), each has their own problems.

Seeya.

[chingei]

Originally posted by chingei


If it involves waking up in the gutter in Roppongi, I've seen it.



or am I wrong in assuming Tokyo?

[Shadow Dragon]

Originally posted by chingei

If it involves waking up in the gutter in Roppongi, I've seen it.


Roppongi is as far away from japan & japanese culture as you can get.
Hate that place, friggin over-priced Trourist trap for Gai-Jin or ex-pats that get paid too much by their companies.

Come to the 'burbs.

Cheers.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Shadow Dragon



There is no perfect country (besides the US of A of course :P ),



That much I'll agree with

[chingei]

Originally posted by Shadow Dragon



Come to the 'burbs.

Cheers.

the 'burb of what 'urb?

[Shadow Dragon]

Chingei.

Suburbs of Tokyo, aka outside the Yamanote-line.

Nerima, Saitama, etc.

Seeya.

[Shadow Dragon]

Ah, forgot.

Stacey.

Aikido has no connection with Tai Chi,
it's roots are in Daito-Ryu(JMA) which shares some aspects with Ba-Gua.

Have fun.

[Stranger]

Somebody care to share an actual historical link between aikido and/or tai chi chuan / pakua chang.

I hear this statement thrown around like it is historical fact, yet I have never seen any evidence of the statement's truth.

[Shadow Dragon]

Stranger.

I have heard it often, but so far nobody has been able to proove it to me either.
One guy that studied at the Tai Chi Farm told me that it was "common" knowledge there.

Most point to the fact that the Aikido Founder was in China for a few years and say that he picked up the arts there.
But no proof of it exists or under whom he studied.
Even the Aikikai Honbu does not recognise the link.

Many consider that MA outside of China are all external.
And thus any art JMA or KMA that shows internal components must have been based on the 3 internal Arts.

Cheers.

P.S.: I think stacey was just trying to troll again.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Shadow Dragon
Chingei.

Suburbs of Tokyo, aka outside the Yamanote-line.

Nerima, Saitama, etc.

Seeya.

got it. spent some time around Saitama

ever been to Kansai?

[Shadow Dragon]

Not been to kansai yet.

Too tied up at the Office and with Family to do much traveling.

Cheers.

[Stranger]

SD,

Did you get my email?

[Shadow Dragon]

Stranger.

I got it, just been too busy to attend.
Normally knocking off work after they finished training.

Cheers.

[Stranger]

That's cool, just confirming.

[Shadow Dragon]

Stranger.

We had a few ex-Aikido Guys in our Tai Chi class and they seemed to struggle a bit as our stances and stepping were different from theirs.

They had the correct depth but not the width. But that I might think might be due to the fact that aikido was designed for people wearing Hakama.

Cheers.

[neito]

shadow dragon - where in saitama? i used to live in urawa. near the station.

[Shadow Dragon]

neito.

I am out west along Chuo line, used to live in Nerima previously.

Cheers.

[neito]

i hate the chuo line, just don't like riding it for some reason.

[Shadow Dragon]

Originally posted by neito
i hate the chuo line, just don't like riding it for some reason.

Can understand it. Personally I prefer Sobu or Tozai line.

Cheers.

[Mr Punch]

I used to live in Nishi Hachioji and I had to take the Chuo then the Yamanote every morning at sparrow**** to get to work in Shibuya. That sucked. The Chuo line is horrible, I don't know why either, just a real bad feeling, and that even the some of my Japanese friends call it the 'Chuocide Sen'...!

Also lived in Saitama (Tokorozawa), and worked in Kita Urawa...

Aikido is, as said, from Daito Ryu Aikijutsu, which was recognised as a style (arguably the first jujutsu style) in the Seiwa Period (858-876 AD), and 'perfected'/developed to a large extent by Shinra Saburo Minamoto no Yo****sune in the 11th C. The Yo****sunes passed it down in a documented and unbroken line to Ueshiba's teacher (was Takeda/Sokeda? Wasurechattakedo...). Stacey is talking crap. But it is crap which has been talked by many before him, so we shouldn't be too harsh.

Every fight I've seen between solely Japanese people, has mostly been grabbing and twisting and keeping largely at arm's reach, with the exception of one beatdown a yakuza was giving some chimpira with knuckle dusters (and even then he hit him about two or three times and went back to the grab n push), and full-on brawls around the mikoshi... involving everything including hospitalisation.

Not saying any of this is a racial characteristic, and can see similarities with any country's silverbacks in trying not kill each other/get killed, and at the same time trying not to lose face...

[Shadow Dragon]

Mat.

Chuocide refers to the term of committing suicide by jumping in front of a Chuo line train.

JR charges the least for removing a dead body and service interruption, hence many people commit suicide on Chuo line.

Which also happens to be the major train-line in tokyo as it connects east to west.
i.e. the major living areas and also being an old line ....

Cheers.

[Mr Punch]

Thanks Shadow, I knew what it meant!

When are we getting together for a beer...? You've got my PM ad...!

Sing fu, just this minute PMed you, but gotta go now-ish.

[sing fu]

Got it Mat - talk with ya soon!

BTW Guys, suicides and all, people in the Tokes have it good. Once when I was on my way to sword training I slept past my stop, and changed to the wrong train. Same Chiba-ken, but I was on a real country line where the old guys thought good manners were peeing etc near the door of the train, rather than the middle of the eisle. Beware the JR NARUTO-SEN!

[kenso]

Originally posted by Mat
Aikido is, as said, from Daito Ryu Aikijutsu, which was recognised as a style (arguably the first jujutsu style) in the Seiwa Period (858-876 AD), and 'perfected'/developed to a large extent by Shinra Saburo Minamoto no Yo****sune in the 11th C. The Yo****sunes passed it down in a documented and unbroken line to Ueshiba's teacher (was Takeda/Sokeda? Wasurechattakedo...). Stacey is talking crap. But it is crap which has been talked by many before him, so we shouldn't be too harsh.

The whole tracing of Daito Ryu to the Seiwa Period is questionable at best. The oldest recognized koryu school as far as I know is the Katori Shinto Ryu, which can document their lineage back to sometime in the 1500s IIRC. Their is some debate as to whether Daito Ryu is koryu at all, since there is no documented history before the Meiji restoration. Given that the castle was burned down during the troubles, this is not conclusive.

The only "evidence" ever given that Ueshiba sensei "stole" internal arts from China is that he served as a soldier over in Manchuria for a time, and subsequently went back there as a representative of the Omoto-kyo sect. This is thin conjecture at best. His lineage with the Daito Ryu is well documented. The technical similarities between modern Aikido and DR are compelling. The similarities between Aikido and any of the Chinese internal arts are superficial at best. The technical repertoire and training regimen of Aikido show none of the common traits of any of the Chinese internal arts to the best of my knowledge. When was the last time you saw an Aikidoka walking the circle, or doing push hands, or even performing a form?

As for the racial comments - I am ethnically Japanese, and have visited a few times. Personally I don't see the comments made as racist. I have witnessed a few fights, and they followed the thread described above. I think if the posters had used the word "cultural" and not "racial" to describe this, it may not have ruffled chingei's feathers. After all, "Japanese" is not a race, although many Japanese would have you believe otherwise.

[Stacey]

Aikido not from tai chi or cma?

Yeah its possible...and India got the nuke analogously to the manhattan project

[sing fu]

Originally posted by Kenso
I think if the posters had used the word "cultural" and not "racial" to describe this, it may not have ruffled chingei's feathers. After all, "Japanese" is not a race, although many Japanese would have you believe otherwise.

Kenso, thanks for your reply:) I stand corrected.

[kenso]

Originally posted by Stacey
Aikido not from tai chi or cma?

Yeah its possible...and India got the nuke analogously to the manhattan project
If you're going to troll, you should at least be entertaining. The key to good trolling is having enough content in your posts to not only get an emotional reaction, but to stimulate intellectual discourse. The mixture of intellect and emotion can be tweaked to become a roiling maelstrom of vehement conflict. All you have succeeded in doing is getting us all to agree that you don't know what you're talking about on this matter. I would be more than happy to converse with you if you showed the slightest bit of documentable evidence to support your claims, but so far you've come up with this:
1. Ueshiba (this is the correct spelling by the way) went to China...therefore he studied tai chi. Excellent reasoning so far.
2. An irrelevant comment about nuclear weapons. By the way, I don't think anyone refers to it as "the nuke" as you so quaintly do. It's generally either "the bomb" (in early fifties parlance prior to the creation of ICBMs) or "nukes".

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by kenso


The whole tracing of Daito Ryu to the Seiwa Period is questionable at best. The oldest recognized koryu school as far as I know is the Katori Shinto Ryu, which can document their lineage back to sometime in the 1500s IIRC. Their is some debate as to whether Daito Ryu is koryu at all, since there is no documented history before the Meiji restoration. Given that the castle was burned down during the troubles, this is not conclusive.

Dayum! Rumbled! I have no proof myself of what I have claimed, but figured it would be enough to shut the moron that is Stacey the **** up!

I did read a translation of a book, admittedly by the head of DR, which had a copy of something quoting Yo****sune taking anatomical lessons from spiders to improve his jujutsu... it did admit that the tracing of DR back to Seiwa is dubious!... None of this is sounding much like evidence eh?! :D

Time for an unsupported attack on your perfectly reasonable claims... which castle?!... Sorry that's the best I can do!

LOL at your dissection of Stacey's 'trolling'... looks like I need a lesson in it too!

[kenso]

Time for an unsupported attack on your perfectly reasonable claims... which castle?!... Sorry that's the best I can do!
I knew someone would throw that at me. I couldn't remember it off the top of my head, but it's Aizu Castle. Formerly home of the Aizu Clan, which the Takeda family served.