Chow Gar Australia website [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

djh

11-15-2002, 10:49 AM

Hello all,

I have just finished uploading a website on the Chow Gar school in Brisbane, Australia. There are pictures of Sifu Paul Brennan and Grandmaster Ip Shui plus some video clips of the Grandmaster's last visit. Let me know what you think.
http://www.chowgar.com.au

Also, if you practice Southern Mantis in Australia you may be interested in this letter from Grandmaster Ip Shui regarding the claims of a well known teacher claiming to be the Australian representative of the Chow Gar style:
http://www.chowgar.com.au/letterset.htm

Any comments?

Thanks,
David

Phu Le

11-15-2002, 01:32 PM

Hi, just wanted to say what a great site you have there. It's amazing, my Sifu looks so young in those pictures.

Anyway, please give my regards to Sifu Paul Brennon, and hopefully I'll finally get to meet him in Hong Kong towards the end of the year. (Sifu speaks very highly of his Kung Fu and his character)

Keep up the good work.

Phu Le

sing fu

11-15-2002, 03:41 PM

Very nice website! I saw Grandmaster Ip Shui and his son in a japanese magazine about the chinese martial arts two months ago - very impressive too.

With respects,

David

11-15-2002, 04:48 PM

Nice site. I'm pleased to see Chow Gar get another 'proper' site up. Respects to your sifu, David. Really enjoyed seeing grandmaster in the video clips - showing how it's done with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth :cool:

I won't be in HK for his birthday but he has my fullest respect.

-David

Harry Gow

11-15-2002, 09:35 PM

Grandmaster Henry Sue.........the topic keeps popping up...huh

You know is gonna be a **** fight....................

............................................to the end.

Anyway, I must say is a great site even I am with another group of tong long guys in Sunnybank.

Did you guys talk to Henry before loading up the info?

Best of luck anyway.......

TaoBoy

11-15-2002, 11:07 PM

Nice site. I have heard many kind words about Sifu Brennan. I will add a link to your site from my school (www.melbkungfu.com).

djh

11-17-2002, 07:05 AM

Thanks for the comments. I've been working on the site on and off for about 9 months now and am relieved to finally have it up.

As for the Henry Sue issue- he refuses to take calls or see my Sifu despite being contacted a number of times. Sifu Paul was ready to just leave the issue and let his training speak for itself (we have had students migrate to our school over the years) until Henry Sue made these claims in the Courier Mail (state newspaper) to promote his business.

We have a good school and people who know know that Paul Brennan is the real representative. It's just disappointing to see the expansion of these other schools based on fabrications.

No offense was meant to anyone who has chosen to train with Henry Sue. All I am saying is that he is not authorised to represent the Chow Gar style and you should go and train a few nights with Sifu Paul Brennan to understand what you're missing out on.

friday

11-19-2002, 01:47 AM

great site

luv the video clips :)

friday

bong

11-19-2002, 06:40 AM

Forgive me, but the website in question seems to imply that
Mr. Brennan is the sole rep for CG in AU. Is this right?

What about the other "legitimate" CG Sifus in AU?

?????????

BTW, the videos are great.

Bong

djh

11-19-2002, 09:27 AM

Yeah- that's right. There is only one nominated representative/custodian of the style in each country where it's practised and Sifu Paul Brennan is the one for Australia. The other Chow Gar Sifu's in Australia are still Sifu's but have just not been awarded this honour.

Thanks all for the feedback on the site! I have a heap of old pictures of Ip Shui (even one of him warming up for his famous challenge fight in Hong Kong against the Dragon Master) that I will be putting up as I get time.

Bye

oh yeah- link me if you have a site and send me requests for reciprocal links. :D

JAZA

11-19-2002, 12:16 PM

Very nice site, equilibrated in design and content.
Very good you didn't use flash like everybody , I'm beginning to hate it:)

TaoBoy

11-19-2002, 05:36 PM

djh,

I have added the link to my site (www.melbukungfu.com).

I understand that Sifu Brennan is the nominated representative here in Australia - GM Sue is claiming some kind of sole representation on his site. What is that? Is it that he is a representative on Nat Yuen? I'm a little confused.

Cheers,
Adam.

friday

11-19-2002, 06:39 PM

hmmm just wondering guys

does the sole representative depend on the lineage. say...there are two sifu in chow gar pai in Hong Kong each one selects a different representative in Australia. they are the sole reps of each sifu in Australia but not of the whole pai. particularly with all the branches that move from the one sifu or grandmaster etc. or does chow gar pai have a jeung moon yun (keeper of the style) and so only he can give this status to a particular individual?

for instance i might be the chief instructor of my sifu in Australia and be his sole representative under his lineage but there are other sifus in Australia in the same pai but a different branch who are the sole reps of their lineage etc. it just seems claims to sole rep status is ambiguous.

btw can u tell us a bit more about the dragon master challenge fight with your grandmaster Ip Shui?

i enjoyed watching the videos of Ip Shui doing some form work and drills with the students of your sifu Brennan. his hand work is quite quick. hope i havent mixed up the names

friday

11-19-2002, 09:13 PM

hmmm better make that clear it was just an example
i'm nobody's rep or chief instructor! :)

TaoBoy

11-19-2002, 09:32 PM

I think we are asking the same questions friday.

Maybe the problem is that Henry Sue is not a representative of Ip Shui but rather a representative of another branch of Chow Gar?

I dunno!

I don't like politics all that much.

djh, please clarify.

TaoBoy

11-19-2002, 09:36 PM

djh,

Turn your PM option on.

I've emailed your sifu via the website. Is that going to your email address?

PM me if you wish.

Cheers,
Adam

djh

11-20-2002, 07:14 AM

OK

Chow Gar (aka Tung Kong Chow Gar Tong Long Kung Fu or Dung Kong etc etc.....) is the style handed from Lao Shui to Ip Shui who is the current Grandmaster of the system. He lives in Hong Kong and still participates in the training and assessment of practitioners hoping to become Sifu.

Grandmaster Ip Shui is the only man able to grant custodianship/representation of the style within a country. Basically it just demonstrates that whoever is awarded this is considered the best Sifu in that country and is in regular contact with Grandmaster Ip Shui to make sure the style is transmitted faithfully.

Henry Sue is claiming to be the sole custodian of the Chow Gar style in Australia. This is untrue (read the letter from Grandmaster Ip Shui). Henry Sue has trained under Ip Shui but (if you read the letter) was deemed unsuitable. Despite the fact that Ip Shui refuses to visit his schools or acknowlegdge his training, Henry Sue is persisting in claiming the honour of custodianship as a unique selling point for his growing chain of Kung Fu schools.

Sifu Paul Brennan has however been granted the honour of custodianship and is highly respected by Grandmaster Ip Shui and among the other Sifu of the system.

In this case it's all pretty much black and white.

As for the challenge match in Hong Kong... other people may be able to fill in the blanks here, but in the 50/60's a Master of the Dragon style (don't know the name) issued a public challenge to fight any Martial Arts master in Hong Kong. One of Ip Shuis friends accepted the challenge but was unprepared to fight on the day. Ip Shui took his friends place and beat the guy (there were no gloves or pads and I believe no rules). This fight made him quite famous as it was witnessed by many within the MA community.

Taoboy- yep that mail went to me. I have forwarded to Sifu Paul but he doesn't look at email very often- you may have to call him (I have also replied to you on this)

Harry Gow

11-20-2002, 04:31 PM

David,
It's very obvious there is more behind the scence than meets the eyes, Henry is no Angel, but to control the whole Chow Gar ownership in Australia with some form of written honour could cause a lot of problems.
It is very obvious the motive here is do with Money and Students!

I am not saying Paul is wrong, he's got every right to put the record straight, but Henry and Malcolm did have more years in this system than Paul, in fact it was them who introduced Chow Gar to the general public in Australia during the late 60s.

Obviously you are still very young in Chow Gar, I must tell you that I have been around for a while and know that there are countless of Sifus whom migrated to Australia had learnt the proper Chu/Chow Gar system from other GM other than GM IP, the difference here is that GM Ip had out lasted all of them by age.

Today, there are still many students and grandstudents in their late 50s, 60s whom were taught the system by Ip Shui's Si-Hings, Si-Dais and Si-Juts in (the New Territory, Macau and Hong Kong), The system was known as Chu Gar Gao after the Japanese occupation. Many still honoured their style as Chu Gar Gao, Chu/chow Gar Tong Long.

In MA, Nobody owns any system. We are only part of an evolution!

My advice to you and Paul is to leave this matter alone and to go on with your schools. Henry is not a person to be messed with, I have nothing to do his groups but do know the Sue's history very well.

Best of luck!
H. Gow

friday

11-20-2002, 04:54 PM

hmmm i beg to differ
i may not know about all the history etc but on sifu Henry Sue's website he does claim to have that representative status under Ip Shui's lineage. and Ip Shui denies this. then what on earth is Henry's basis for claiming this status???

I think its quite simple really. he doesn't. the end.
lets say...on pure speculation of course that they had a falling out. it doesn't matter, that status would be withdrawn if it was in fact ever given.

whats the deal? and why can't this be discussed? What is Henry Sue going to do? it is grandmaster Ip Shui who denies he has that representative status the same man that Henry sue claims lineage from. lol i mean seriously, it doesn't matter how many years Henry has been in this system and how much longer he has been relative with Sifu Brennan. custodian, sole rep status is not something Henry can just claim from grandmaster Ip Shui.

i think its all quite simple, but i think Henry has too much to lose by taking away his marketing tool and lineage, representative claims.

jon

11-20-2002, 05:18 PM

Gee a linage war in SPM who woulda thunk it:rolleyes:

I think both friday and Harry Gow raise points which cant be ignored but for totaly different reasons.

On the one hand...
Harry is quite correct in saying that there may be others than GM Ip Shui who have trained members of the Australian spm circle. You cannot withdraw someones skill purely though words alone, to be dead honest if Henry Sue is truely skilled in his art then nothing is going to take that away - even his sifu claiming otherwise. You cannot simply withdraw a persons hands, everyone in spm knows this - which i would guess is why such charactor assisination tends to happen. I dont know what happened between Henry Sue and GM Ip Shui but it cant change what has already taken place. If GM Ip Shui has handed accross his art then he has done it - he cant take it back!

On the other hand...
If Henry Sue claims linage though GM Ip Shui then he should also respect his wishes. If GM Ip Shui does not wish to be publicly listed as Henry Sue's instructor then Henry Sue should honor that.
Most of all if Henry Sue is claiming qualifications from GM Ip Shui which where never granted in the first place then thats dead wrong and an insult to the people who have worked hard to actualy have the honor granted though there sweat and blood.

So i guess my take on all of this would be.
Henry Sue may well be exceptionaly skilled in SPM and i see no reason why he shouldnt have continued success. He should not however take such success by lies and deciet. If he has no right to be the 'offical' Australian rep then he should not claim himself as such.

Titles can be withdrawn... Skill cant!

Harry Gow

11-20-2002, 06:27 PM

Guys,
I hear you, but let see if Henry was given the custodianship title in the early 80s {Friday (the photo) read the Chinese writing, and Jon get William to help you out on this), and a disagreement ocurred during the 90s which sparked a **** fight between them, isn't there is more behind the curtains. I really don't buy that bull$hits about Henry's skills, anyone who had cross-hand with him knows the real deal. He is not as simple as you think.

Let see, why bother giving out certificates and plagues if one can't honour them later in life. If money or pai control is an issue, then bloody well sit everybody down and lay it all out on the table. I am sure that anything can be worked out amicably!
Chu/Chow Gar tong long is bigger then just one person!!

Stop and think before jumping the gun.

Best of luck,

H. Gow

TaoBoy

11-20-2002, 07:51 PM

Just seems to me to be another silly little disagreement. I hope both Henry Sue and Paul Brennan have continued success. I would very much like to spend some time training with both of them in order to increase my own SPM skills.

Many good points have been raised herein. And it's good to see that no-one has insulted anyone.

Peace all.

friday

11-20-2002, 11:18 PM

hey :)

no insults are intended i suspected a falling out as such. my post isn't about henry's skills etc i have no idea how good he is. i don't even belong to any pai in southern mantis.

but like jon said... my point is regardless of sifu Henry's skill level or knowledge, and even if he was given custodianship before, its obviously withdrawn now. u can't claim lineage and custodianship entitlement from the same guy who now denies it or has withdrawn it.

:)

friday

jon

11-21-2002, 06:25 AM

Harry Gow
This may seem a little pointless but never the less...

"I hear you, but let see if Henry was given the custodianship title in the early 80s {Friday (the photo) read the Chinese writing, and Jon get William to help you out on this), and a disagreement ocurred during the 90s which sparked a **** fight between them, isn't there is more behind the curtains."
* I hear where you are comming from but in full honesty. I have no wish to be ANY part of this. Im mearly stating an opinion on something which someone has posted in public. I have no intension of involving my sifu or trying to get to the bottom of something which is NONE of my buisness.

The reason im posting is you have mentioned my sifu by name. I obviously dont want him drawn into this as he has absolutely nothing to do with any of it. My viewpoints are my own and im not speaking on behalf of or for anybody else.

I trust you when you say there is more to this and i tried to hint that i thought this myself within my post. I also stated blandly that i believe in honoring the wishes of your sifu.
IF my sifu and I fell out i would still have my skills but i could not use him as a cross reference.
Just as if i work at Pizza Hut and get fired, i can certainly say i can make pizza's but i would be an idiot to give someone my old bosses number so they could make sure.

If your a doctor and you commit malpractice they can withdraw your licence. Doesnt invalidate your knowledge but you no longer have an established licence from which you can cross reference your skills. This really is no different. If Henry Sue wishes to claim GM Ip Shui as his sifu then he should also honor his wishes about who GM Ip Shui considers his personal offical representative.

Kung Fu sifus are obviously a slightly different kettle of fish but the point remains the same.

Ging Mo Fighter

11-21-2002, 06:39 AM

looks like a great website and school

i wouldnt mind talking to you over email if you want

im in perth and study ging mo kune under sifu gawain sue
(extremely similar to southern praying mantis)

djh

11-21-2002, 06:56 AM

Fair enough.

Harry- My involvement in this is done (unless asked by my Sifu to upload further material). I cannot comment on the intentions of others however. Also, I never said anyone controlled all the Chow Gar practised in Australia- what I said was Paul Brennan is the officially recognised representative of the Chow Gar style as taught from Lao Shui to Ip Shui. The letter was written by Ip Shui in response to Henry Sue's continued use of the representative title in the marketing of his business.

I've made the material available. Make up your own minds.

Thanks for the discussion. If you're in Brisbane go and train with both and let me know what you reckon davidhannay@hotmail.com

Harry Gow

11-21-2002, 04:26 PM

Alright mate,

Jon- I got your points, my appology to you if I have accidentally involve your Sifu's name. I will ring William to explain my reasons.

David- Thanks for the invite, I will definately visit Paul and you in due course, I am currently involved in a major city project, so free time is rare. I am sure Paul is very skillful.
As far as Henry, I will try to ask my si-sook to contact him to see what can be done.

Friday- I got your points. How's your bak hok training anyway??

Harry.

jon

11-21-2002, 06:48 PM

Harry Gow

"Jon- I got your points, my appology to you if I have accidentally involve your Sifu's name. I will ring William to explain my reasons."
*Thats what i was afraid of :p
Im not sure exactly what you mean by this but again he would have no idea I was even having this conversation.

Seriously though there is no need for appologys, i only wanted to insure that nobody thought that i was somehow speaking on behalf of him.

Still if you know my sifu - have we ever met?

TaoBoy

11-21-2002, 07:48 PM

Jon, may I ask who you sifu is? If this is to be kept off the board I understand.

Curiosity has me now.

Okay people - enough politics - back to training. ;)

jon

11-21-2002, 09:34 PM

TaoBoy
Its no big secret really, infact im fairly sure i even list him in my profile.

English name.
Master William Ho
Chinese
Sifu Ho Wai Lim

friday

11-21-2002, 09:42 PM

hey Harry Gow,

hmmm do i know u?

u have assumed i can read cantonese.
u ask me how my pak hok is going.
i suspect your someone whose been a member of kfo for a while under a new id! :) am i correct?

hey taoboy
hows it going? how long u gonna stay in sydney for?

jon
great to see u again today. your sifu is always a pretty cheerful nice guy. actually seeing how fit he was today put me to shame. i really ought to talk less and train more. :)

jon

11-22-2002, 12:09 AM

friday

Always a pleasure seeing you as well. Today turned out to be quite an interesting lesson :) Looks like i have a lot of practicing to be done over the comming months.

My sifu puts me to shame everyday, he is miles fitter than i am and has much cleaner power as well. LOL it drives me mad :)

I also made the discovery today that his freestyle pushing is superb. I couldnt even knock him off balance and yet he managed to wrap me up and chuck me like a small child. Rather embarasing:(

Tell me, did you find any value in the Rao Shao stuff i showed you today?

Still its always great to see you and when you get some time we shall have to try and get a bit more training in together :)

All the best
Jon

friday

11-22-2002, 01:16 AM

hey jon,

what does rao shao actually mean?
i was thinking it was some form of push-hands or chi sao.
i remember u defined it for me today but i can't remember what it meant.

its interesting i've always wanted to learn chi sao. altho' i know pak hok has its own chi sao component there might actually be bits and pieces in my forms. i can't practise some of this stuff with my pai's people in Australia so i was hoping i could break down some of it and apply with the training group.

it'd be great if u can show me more. the problem is the stuff u showed me a little of today was something i did'nt really understand or know how it works. at the moment my approach would be more to break prolonged contact and constantly drive thru and get away rather than staying in close range for too long. i think this is due to my current limited knowledge.

this has nothing to do with this thread haha sorry for hijacking it.
but i'd be pretty interested in learning hsing yi. . sometimes i find myself having a drive thru intent. from my realy really shallow knowledge of xing yi it would be itneresting to see what it does in combination with the intent. i'm a pretty big guy so i'd like to use a repetitive overwhelming attack kind of approach sometimes and see what happens. i'm sure there must be some xing yi ppl around so i can take a look at what they do but i'm not sure whether there are any qualified ppl around.

does your sifu teach xing yi too? how significant is it as a componenet.
lots of ppl tend to learn all three internal arts

anyway just some thoughts
friday

jon

11-22-2002, 10:46 PM

Hi Friday
Im feeling a bit guilty for hijacking this thread so im going to keep this simple. We can always meet up and do some more another time and i can show you proparly what its all about.

"what does rao shao actually mean?
i was thinking it was some form of push-hands or chi sao."
* Im fairly sure Rao Shao means 'soft hands' and its basicaly Baguas form of sensitivity training which leads to free sparring. There are no set movements but the aim is to try and keep in contact with your opponent so you can feel what they do though touch.
The aim is to develop sensitivity which can then be applied to more live sparring.
It is very similar to both push hands and chi sao. Some form of sensitivity training is commen in many cma schools.

"it'd be great if u can show me more. the problem is the stuff u showed me a little of today was something i did'nt really understand or know how it works."
* I would certainly love to show you more, its always great to have someone new to train with. It takes time to proparly understand what your doing but you will build up a general idea *very* quickly. Most of our students pick up this training in a couple of sessions - it then takes years to actualy get skilled in it.

"at the moment my approach would be more to break prolonged contact and constantly drive thru and get away rather than staying in close range for too long."
* lol this is actualy a commen mistake :)
Though i know certainly that your styles mind is not to stay in and stuff around. The idea is to be able to tell what your opponents doing by touch alone. You should be able to sence when your opponents incapable of defending and then take advantage of the opening. Strangely breaking contact usualy gets you hammered. On the other side of it chasing hands is *bad* and if you get a gap you should by all means exploit it. Its a tricky balance and one that can only be learned though touch.

My sifu does not teach Xing Yi, he has practiced it in the past.
Still there are a few decent Xing Yi players around although they are hard to track down. If your interested i can certainly see what i can do.
Hope your well
Jon
Appologys to the others for the thread hijack :)