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hasayfu
06-08-2000, 05:20 AM
Hi all,

With all the discussion of Mui Fah Kuen in Hung Gar earlier, I asked Si-gung about it. He answered some of the finer points and made me learn the set.

The actual name of the set is Sup Gi Mui Fah Kuen. ("10" or cross character plum flower fist) the Sup Gi is why Paul called it a cross pattern (4 directions) set. when I asked him about the Mui Fah, he said it refers to the buterfly palms. Also, in the set I learned, there is a section that attach the angels which is usually associated with mui fah but Si-gung did not mention that.

He said the form was relatively recent but didn't give a date. He said that the hung gar sifus got together and decided that transition forms were required between Gung Gi Fook Fu and Fu Hok. So this is a simple set but with many deep fighting applications.

I also looked at the plum flower set in John Leong's book. The set I learned is much more complex then that form and looks very different with the exception of one line.

On a side note, I also asked about the Wu dip Jiang (butterfly palms set). He confirmed that this did not come from his mother but was brought into Hung Gar by Lam Sai Wing during his time at the Ching Mo.

mantis108
06-09-2000, 03:29 AM
Hasayfu,

Great info. Thanks for sharing. So that explain the cross pattern than.

Mantis108

------------------
Contraria Sunt Complementa

MaFuYee
06-14-2000, 02:24 AM
.

[This message has been edited by MaFuYee (edited 06-23-2000).]

Paul Skrypichayko
06-14-2000, 08:02 AM
Hi MaFuYee, it's nice to find other hung gar practicioners on here. Could you tell us where you're from, who's your sifu, how long you learned, what you learned, etc... Basically a brief bio.

Mui Fa Kuen is also taught in my lineage, Chan Hon Chung, and it is elementary and basic, but does have some very good points too.

I wouldnt really call it a "sup ji" form, but it does pretty much repeat the same basic techniques in 4 directions.

Sihing73
06-14-2000, 10:23 PM
MaFuYee,

Who was the guy in NY that taught Wu Mui?
Was is Sifu Chau? I was not aware that he had passed on, if we are talking about the same guy.

Peace,

Dave

hasayfu
06-14-2000, 10:48 PM
Like MaFuYee and Paul said, Mui Fa Kuen looks like a beginners form. Though I said it was more complex then the form in John Leong's book, it is still limited in the number of techniques and short in overall length especially when you compare it with Fu hok or fook fu.

As Chiu Wai related to me, Gung Gi Fook Fu is the first Hung Gar set. Fu Hok Cern Ying is the second. Anything else taught was added during his lifetime. BTW, he remembers Chan Hon Chong and had good things to say about him.

Several sets were created to bridge fook fu and Fu Hok. These include but are not limited to, plum flower, 3 animals, arrowhand, 10 killing hands, etc.

Also many Sifu's found that Fook Fu was too long for many students in North America to learn as a first set. So they took one of the intermediate sets and used it as a beginner set.

You'll notice my Sifu uses Arrowhand as a first set and Si-gung has another set he uses for beginners too. In Hong Kong, however, Fook Fu is the first set.

The way mui fah kuen is used in the Chiu line is to refine basic techniques and introduce new ones. Most notably, some crane movements and the no shadow kick.

As far as calling it a "sup ji" form. That's what I was told by Si-Gung. Who am I to argue. Until that time, I had never heard it called that either. I think Paul's set is very close to what I learned since it comes from Chan Hon Chong. It goes in four directions a few times.

Paul Skrypichayko
06-14-2000, 11:15 PM
Some good info on here lately. It's great to get the info from higher up on the ladder, helps with clarity and understanding.

The was I was taught was also with Gung Ji being the first form. Like you said, it can be overwelming for new students, so most of the masters in the last 75 years would teach things like mui fa kuen and lau gar kuen to the beginners before moving into the main forms.

I'm sure all the hung style people on here know that the three main forms are Gung Jee Fook Fu Kuen, Fu Hok Seung Ying, and Tit Sin Kuen. In the old days, this is what they learned, but it should be kept in mind that forms training was of minor importance, with things like nei gung and combat training being of major importance.

I still haven't been able to find John Leong's book. Is this the only one he did? Anybody have a copy online, or know where I could get one?

You'll find lots of similarities between Chan Hon Chung people and Chiu Kao people because Chiu Kao learned the bulk of his medicine and kung fu at Chan's clinic and school after Lam Sai Wing died. There still are some major differences though, even if you look at some of the Chiu brothers, very different ideas and skill levels.

hasayfu
06-14-2000, 11:37 PM
Hi Paul,

Some great info indeed! thanks for sharing.

Your notes on the forms and practice matches mine.

Leong sifu's book is old. My si-hing let me borrow it. I don't know where you can get it.

Your Chan Hon Chong/Chiu Kao info is *interesting* :-) Si-Gung told me the reverse. That CHC studied with CK after LSWs death. Chiu Kao's father was a famous dit da doctor and that's where their chinese medicine comes from. This was well established before Chiu Kao met Lam Sai Wing. I won't say who is right. I wonder if they "shared" a clinic. I didn't know this stuff so didn't ask.

As for Chiu Chi Ling and Chiu Wai being different. You need to understand that CCL demos very differently then he performs. I have seen CCL do the real stuff and he is close to his brother.

Paul Skrypichayko
06-16-2000, 12:16 AM
For better marketing with their dit da practice, the Chiu family claimed to have their medical knowledge handed down from father to son over many generations. If you ask the older generations, or find a way to ask Chiu Wei (while still letting him save face), I'm sure you'll get the real story. Nowdays, they are teaching some "Hung Hei Guen's Hung Gar Tai Chi style".

Chiu Kao didn't start learning form Lam Sai Wing until about 1935. That's when Chiu came back to HK from working overseas. Chiu Kao's medicine is mostly Lam Sai Wing's via Chan Hon Chung. Chiu Kao also learned from Lai Ng Sam (Tit Kiu Sam lineage), and probably some of his other sihings. I doubt he learned anything from Lam Jo though.

I doubt that Chiu Kao shared a clinic with LSW or CHC. Chiu Kao was even learning dit da and kuen sut from CHC as late as 1960. I think CHC was head instructor under LSW as far back as 1922? (could be off on the date though). There was a little animosity because Chiu Kao resented having to learn from a younger teacher.

If you have further questions/doubts, you can contact me privately so your sigung's family can save face.

By the way, do you know what the other 2 Chiu brothers are up to lately?

hasayfu
06-16-2000, 03:45 AM
Hi Paul,

Thank you for letting the Chiu family save face but your tone is insulting at best.

As for "the passing of Dit Da for many generations" we have pictures of Chiu Kao's clinic as early as 1951. Chiu Wai probably has proof of his grandfather's clinic but I'll admit I hadn't questioned the authenticity. The dit da is definitely different from Lum Jo which I would consider the Dit Da of Lam Sai Wing. (I have also visited and trained with Lum Jo on several occasions)

If as you claim, it was just marketing, it must be pretty good marketing since he has made a substantial fortune from Dit da.

For the "tai Chi" set, where did you hear this? Chiu Wai invented a set called Yik So Kuen. Preserving Life Fist. It is hung gar movements done at "tai chi" speed. Chiu Wai teaches it to senior citizens and others who don't want to learn traditional hung gar but want some excercise. He is very straight forward with it's origins and usage. He is also adamant about NOT calling it tai chi. In calgary, I trained with 40-50 of the senior citizens doing yik so kuen. At the end of the hour long workout, he made them stay in horse stance for 5 minutes. Very few gave up.

You also claim that Chiu Kao learned from Lai Ng Sam. This is really funny. Do the math. Lai Ng Sam came to Hong Kong at age 20 or 22 (depending on who you believe his birthdate is) He was a refugee from communist china and couldn't make a living with dit da. He is also about the age of Chiu Wai. As Chiu Wai tells the story, Lai Ng Sam went to Chiu Kao's school. This was AFTER Chiu Wai had already opened his own school. He remembers going back to his father's school and training Lai Ng Sam and that LNS was only there for about 3 years.

You say you don't think Chiu Kao learned from Lum Jo but when Lam Sai Wing died and Lum Jo took over his school, he took an ad in the Hong Kong newspaper claiming Chiu Kao (and CHC) where his students since he was the head of LSW's school. Of course that met with a lot of resistance and caused animosity for some time.

For the group, I apologize for such a long post. I felt I could not let the one sided statements by Paul go unanswered. I will be the first to admit that my information may not be correct, but they were obtained first hand from the people in question.

I also question Paul's information as they have some obvious inconsitencies with other sources.

I am mostly offended at the air of superiority in his response. I offered direct responses in a supportive manner. Not just passing propaganda in a derogatory tone without stating sources.

Even if it is proven that Paul is correct (which I highly doubt), I would expect Paul to present his findings and knowledge as I did when I had conficting information about statements he made.

'nuff said.

Paul Skrypichayko
06-16-2000, 10:37 AM
Sure thing man, sorry for the hard feelings.

There were ads in the Calgary Chinese newspaper for Chiu Wei's hung gar tai chi which "came directly from Hung Hei Guen".

The info I had on Chiu Kao and Lai Ng Sam learning together is second hand. Apparently Chiu Chi Ling first agreed with the story years ago, then later changed his mind.

"You say you don't think Chiu Kao learned from Lum Jo but
when Lam Sai Wing died and Lum Jo took over his school,
he took an ad in the Hong Kong newspaper claiming Chiu
Kao (and CHC) where his students since he was the head of
LSW's school. Of course that met with a lot of resistance
and caused animosity for some time."

Of course it would cause animosity. That would be like me joining Wing Lam today and then claiming to be the master of all my new sihings.

It's the same thing with how Lam Jo tried to trash Wong Fei Hung's good name a few years ago in HK newspapers. A feeble attempt for publicity at his old age.

molum_jr
06-16-2000, 03:01 PM
Paul, you said, "It's the same thing with how Lam Jo tried to trash Wong Fei Hung's good name a few years ago in HK newspapers. A feeble attempt for publicity at his old age."

Fill me in, I haven't this story before. Why trash WFH?

bean curd
06-16-2000, 04:52 PM
i must say i have not responded to msg's on the board for sometime, however the inverance that has been stated by paul i find astonishing to say the least.
my lineage is two fold, both being chiu kau si gung lineage and also chan hon chung si gung lineage, and in the many years that i have been training, i have never heard such information.

chiu kau si gung started training with lam tsai wing si dai gung in his late 20's, however it was some years before chan hon chung si gung started, and chan hon chung si gung was only 19 at the time.

chiu kau si gung when returning to his family went via hong kong, was already well versed in both the arts and chinese medicine, and lam tsai wing si dai gung did advance the training in both areas, this also being the same direction that chan hon chung si gung recieved, although his initial teachings where from lam tsai wing si dai gung.

hasayfu you spoke well and you should not appologize for your words, best wishes

regards

Paul Skrypichayko
06-17-2000, 01:23 AM
I have an article from a HK newspaper where Lam Jo is basically calling Wong Fei Hung a gangster and a deadbeat. Funny how all of this only comes to light once the rest of the older generation is dead.

Why trash WFH? I don't know. The only reason I can think of is for Lam Jo to try and get some glory now that all his sihings and Mok Gwai Lan are dead.

No doubt that Chiu Kao learned from LSW, you only have to think about practical matters. How long did he learn from LSW, how much did he absorb, how much did he learn from his sihings, etc.

I don't even know why I'm trying to prove that Chiu Kao learned from CHC. From what I hear, Chiu Kao had pretty good training ethic and was a really persistant guy. From what I have seen of Chiu family performances, I would just say that their idea of kung fu is different than mine and my sifu's. Remember, they are primarily body builders, dit da men, and thirdly, kung fu masters.

If you still doubt my version, ask Chiu Wei about when his father was learning Ng Long Bat Gua Kwun. I think you'll find the proof there.

I agree, no need to apologize on here, just so long as it isnt you and me who are making up stories and stretching the truth.

Subitai
06-17-2000, 07:46 AM
Hi, im Si Hing to Hay Say FU and i normally don't post much either. But since i was there as well (w/ Chiu Wai) i felt i should add to this.

Hi Paul,
"There were ads in the Calgary Chinese newspaper for Chiu Wei's hung gar tai chi which "came directly from Hung Hei Guen"."

subs= This could have easily been misinformation. From what we've seen w/ our own eyes...he's got hand outs for this set that he gives to people. Its titled Yik Sau Kuen. He's says exactly that he's invented it and doesn't want it called Tai Chi.

"I have an article from a HK newspaper where Lam Jo is basically calling Wong Fei Hung a gangster and a deadbeat. Funny how all of this only comes to light once the rest of the older generation is dead."

subs= This is a classic example of how the press makes mistakes w/ misquoting.
Paul you only have 1/2 of the info.
Even our SIFU upon reading that said "it cannot be" In fact the following month the same paper put out a retraction and apology for that mistake. As a reference point, the photo for the article was during Lum Jo's birthday and Y.C. Wong with his students were kneeling in front of him.

"Why trash WFH? I don't know. The only reason I can think of is for Lam Jo to try and get some glory now that all his sihings and Mok Gwai Lan are dead."


subs= Look man, for a person who isn't even a quarter century old you have alot of gumpshion. Arguably, Lum JO's is the eldest survivor to LSW. So who the hell are you to say such things? I or the rest of us have no ill will towards you but if you say such things to the wrong crowd you'd get smacked down. Just telling you as a fellow Hung man.

Hi Bean Curd,

"chiu kau si gung started training with lam tsai wing si dai gung in his late 20's, however it was some years before chan hon chung si gung started, and chan hon chung si gung was only 19 at the time"

subs= This is great info. Thx! Another hand in the deck.

Hmmmmmmmmm I wonder???

"You mean to tell me you never heard of Chinese spare ribs? Well leme show you man!"

Onassis aka subs

Paul Skrypichayko
06-17-2000, 09:48 AM
I wasn't aware that the newspaper twisted Lam Jo's words. Not my problem though. Maybe the newspaper misprinted Chiu Wei's advertisement as well?

Good for Chiu Wei though that his dit da practice and seniors classes are having good business.

Maybe for my age I do have a lot of gumption, but from my perspective, and my reliable info, I was correct. Thank you for giving me the other side of the story. If this is such a soft spot with you guys, maybe you should take it up with the newspaper editors, arent they the ones who should take care of proofreading?

Also, what the heck does age have to do with anything? You got some kinda complex/hang up about your age? Doesnt matter how young or old someone is, what counts here is the accuracy of information.

Glad you have no ill towards me, I don't have any bad intent to "defame" you, Wing Lam, the Chiu boys, or anybody else. I was just presenting the info I got from so called "reliable" sources.

No need to threaten me with a smack down either. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

hasayfu
06-17-2000, 12:04 PM
Hey Paul,

This is really getting far from the topic but just wanted to share. This will be the last on this thread from me. I'll see all of you on other threads.

You really miss the point of Subitai's post.

Paul Skrypichayko writes:
"I wasn't aware that the newspaper twisted Lam Jo's words. Not my problem though. "

It's not your problem when the newspaper twists his words. It is your problem when you disrespect your elders by assuming the worst. It's even more your problem when you propogate such disrespect and claim it as "reliable" without even trying to find out how something so out of character could occur.

"Maybe the newspaper misprinted Chiu Wei's advertisement as well?"

Since I haven't seen the ad you are refering to, I can't say for sure but I would tend to believe the newspaper got it wrong. I'd be a rich man if I got a dollar for every time we did a lion dance and it was printed as Dragon dance in the paper. One time it was a vietnamese paper who requested the "lion" dance.

"Good for Chiu Wei though that his dit da practice and seniors classes are having good business."

Just to keep the full story out there, his senior class is taught as a community service at no charge.

"Maybe for my age I do have a lot of gumption, but from my perspective, and my reliable info, I was correct."

Care to reveal your reliable source? Have you cross referenced it with others? From the stuff you posted, it's only been partly reliable.

"If this is such a soft spot with you guys, maybe you should take it up with the newspaper editors, arent they the ones who should take care of proofreading?"

Again, you miss the point. When discovered, they are corrected. Chiu Wai is interviewed all the time by both English and Chinese media in Calgary. While I was there I saw a special on TV where they interviewed him about Yik So Kuen. (pre recorded)

It's only a soft spot when a "family member" disrespects others in the family. If you don't feel we are the same family, you don't deserve to call CHC Si-Gung.

You owe a lot to all the masters that have allowed you to learn kung fu and be part of a long tradition. Not just your direct line. If you don't see that, there's a lot you'll be missing.

"Doesnt matter how young or old someone is, what counts here is the accuracy of information."

You are right and half the truth with poor attitude is not very accurate

Look, don't take this post as trying to change you. That's up to you. I'm not even trying to teach you something, that's up to your Sifu. And your actions do not put down others in the Hung family, only yourself. We all know that the Hung history is not perfect. I even want to understand those imperfections. But it should be done with respect and the desire to get at the heart of the traditions.

If you disagree, then we will continue to disagree and we should both move on.

Peace.

molum_jr
06-17-2000, 05:14 PM
I can only say that it is just politics as usual:

1)Chan, Hoc-Fu and Wu, Gung-Yi(?)[White Crane vs. Wu Tai Chi]

2)Bruce Lee and Wong, Jack-Man [Wing chun vs. Northern Law Horn]

3)William Cheung and Emin Botzepe(sp?) [Wing Chun vs. Ving Tsun]

and now:
4) Chiu Kau vs Chan, Hon-Chong...

Both have long passed away. With Hung Kuen making a big resurgence in the UK and USA, how soon will the challenges begin among Hung Gar stylist?

A long time ago, my si-suk gave me a little hint. "No matter how close you think you are to your sifu. You'll only know what he wants you to know. You'll learn only what he want to teach you..." It used to be a big joke among the asian students as they watched the non-asians call their sifu as "master" during the 70's and 80's. Too many students looking for someone to call a "master."

History is manipulated when it affects your "rice bowl."

[This message has been edited by molum_jr (edited 06-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by molum_jr (edited 06-18-2000).]

06-17-2000, 10:31 PM
Well MEEOOWW! man at first I was very excited to see some info on my lineage...but now I have to wonder how much is hearsay and how much is real.Sigh The fact that Hung Gar is so popular and we are all dedicated practitioners should mean more than all of this "my sifu is better than your sifu" crap. Quite frankly I think we should be sharing the differences and adding these nuances if you will, to all of our bags of treasures. Oh and by the way I'm a 40 yr old woman,who has suprised more than a few men half my age by beating them totally senseless because they made the mistake of thinking age has anything to do with how good of a fighter one is at any age.And just to get back on the subject, plumflower was the second kuan I learned, it has only ten moves done in three directions (east,then north then south) It's deceptively simple, yet really does have a lot of combat applications.

MoQ
06-18-2000, 02:33 AM
When you silly people stop gossiping and name-dropping, you might actually say something worth reading...*yawn*

word
06-18-2000, 07:58 AM
All this wasted talk on Hasayfu. Hay Say Fu hung gar is all a made up lie by wing. He made up the lineage Hay Say Fu Hung Gar so that he could teach more weapon forms and hand forms at his school, which are basically repeats of the ORIGINAL , TRADITIONAL 5 hand forms. That allows him to make more silly tapes on those weird-as-hell " snake form" "crane form" " Leopard Form" etc. Those are very strange forms by the way.

Paul Skrypichayko
06-18-2000, 10:17 AM
Word, there are originally only 3 hand forms, Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen, Fu Hok Seung Ying, and Tit Sin Kuen. No big deal with the other forms. Remember, you can teach any idiot a thousand forms. Forms are nothing compared to training.

Mui Fa Kuen is definately not that Ha Say Fu stuff. Nobody on here said it was.

Ha Say Fu may be fishy, but there are other people in HK and Guangdong that practice it. True, it does give Wing Lam more potential to make money, but if you can do better than him, you should go out and prove him wrong. I'm sure with the right business strategy you could make a lot of money as well.

Word, I've asked you in the past for a private email, could you please oblige me.

hung_ga @hotmail.com

Subitai
06-18-2000, 11:33 AM
Wait,wait,wait people, My brother and I weren't trying to fall off the subject. The original topic is to share knowledge about Moi Fah. Sorry to stray.

Also, neither Paul nor US had said anything about who's teachers are better or worse. I have the upmost respect for his lineage CHC. That was never in question.

About the age thing....I mentioned age only in reference to having respect for your elders. I never mentioned anything about Pauls skill or anyones skill level and neither did he.

HOWEVER, GO BACK AND READ HIS TONE OF VOICE. Can you honestly see him questioning a 90 yr old LUM JO to his Face???? I wouldn't do that. So TigerLilly chill out. Also thank you for sharing your info. on Moi Fah. You were correct, let's start sharing again.

And no this was never about a "This guy vs That guy" politics. It was a freindly exchange of information that turned into someone giving us advice on HOW TO SAVE FACE.

1. If you ask the older generations, or find a way to ask Chiu Wei (while still letting him save face), I'm sure you'll get the real story.

(Thank you for letting the Chiu family save face but your tone is insulting at best.)

All you other guys dont see that do you? How would you take this?

I/we will not address the troll, word. He is a coward that hides behind a pseudonym. He's a disgrace to himself and his teacher...if he even has one.

Like we said b4, we have nothing against Paul. My brother was merely sharing info about Moi Fah. We are only responding to Off topic stabs at us in our defence.

Onassis Aka subs

Paul Skrypichayko
06-18-2000, 01:36 PM
Yeah, it's all good.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm sure our grandmasters wouldnt approve of our behaviour, but they would understand. After all, they were young guys once too.

06-19-2000, 08:43 PM
Actually It was the comment about the 40-50 seniors not giving up after 5 min of Ma. What was the phrase you used? Insulting at best? It's the older students whose legs aren't shaking at the end of 45 min of stance work at my kwoon. Sorry that one made my tail turn into a bottle brush.Besides I am very sensitive to mud-slinging. Honestly I came on line to GET AWAY from this. There is so much of this in my city. I was hoping for some useful and interesting info. esp history on my lineage. And just to get back on track, I practiced a two man plumflower set last night for the first time. I enjoyed it very much.I asked why we were learning all these short forms first, instead of tiger/crane or Taming the tiger, and was told that it's because we learn the Hark Fu Moon system along with Hung Gar. I was wondering how many of you have the two together and does this have to do with lineage?

06-20-2000, 03:53 AM
I stand corrected, My si-gung calls it fu jow pai, but our other sifu calls it hark fu moon, are they the same?

molum_jr
06-20-2000, 11:24 AM
Paul,
What have you heard about a Gung Gee Fook Fu Sparring Set? I heard that YC Wong teaches it.

illusionfist
06-21-2000, 12:28 AM
From what i have heard and seen, Y.C. Wong has a sparring set for every empty hand set that he teaches.

Kung Lek
06-21-2000, 02:28 AM
Hi-

Hung Gar was born of Hark Fu Moon (shaolin Black Tiger) the Black Tiger system Of Hark Fu Moon was adapted and became the current Fu Jow Pai.
The tiger system before Hark Fu Moon was the Four Lower Tigers system of Shaolin.
Also known as "Hay Say Fu".
Hung Gar is the latest iteration of the Shaolin Tiger systems primarily but has inclusions which feed from principles of other shaolin systems and even systems that were not developed at shaolin.

As far as I know it went from Shaolin (Hay Say Fu-four lower tigers) to the village styles of Hark Fu Moon which then was further developed to Fu Jow Pai which was then further devloped to various other tiger systems ,Hak Fu Pai, Bak Fu Pai,etc and ultimately the development of Hung gar in its current state which has differences slight and large dependent upon the lineage of Hung Gar you are studying.

Peace

------------------
Kung Lek

molum_jr
06-21-2000, 03:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kung Lek:
Hi-

The tiger system before Hark Fu Moon was the Four Lower Tigers system of Shaolin.
Also known as "Hay Say Fu".

As far as I know it went from Shaolin (Hay Say Fu-four lower tigers) to the village styles of Hark Fu Moon which then was further developed to Fu Jow Pai which was then further devloped to various other tiger systems ,Hak Fu Pai, Bak Fu Pai,etc and ultimately the development of Hung gar in its current state which has differences slight and large dependent upon the lineage of Hung Gar you are studying.

Peace

[/quote]

I do not know what "it" was called in the sil lum period, but "Hai Sei Fu/Hay Say Fu" is the name of the village province. The facts as related from Leung, Wah-Chew is that the son of Hung, Hsi-Gwun/Hung, Hay-Gwoon settled or passed through the village of Hai Sei Fu. Wing Lam was introduced to the system by his former brother-in-law and former wife. He sort of tagged along with them. Of the six hands sets, he learned only two: Tiger & Panther. For twenty years those were all he taught at the SF and Sunnyvale kwoons.

Paul Skrypichayko
06-21-2000, 06:33 AM
From what I know about history, Hung Hei Guen's son, Hung Man Ting, practiced southern shaolin (aka Nam Kuen, aka Hung Kuen, aka Hung Gar, etc...) Perhaps he may have taught a little bit of kung fu in his travels, and his "students" may have put their own ideas or flavor into it. This might explain ha say fu's story.

Not commenting on the effectiveness or legitimacy of ha say fu, I believe it was evolved from hung gar, same as many other "tiger" themed styles. White tiger (bak fu pai) and Fu Jow Pai (tiger claw style) are all recent inventions with colorful histories, but in reality, they are based on a few techniques and ideas from southern shaolin / hung gar. Sifu Wong Kiew Kit of Malaysia also supports this claim.

Much of the village kung fu in southern china claims to be southern shaolin or go by the name of hung gar. Often what happened in the old days was a village would hire a kung fu master to teach the villagers martial arts for a short time, or the village might send a few people to go learn from a master. Often, the "master" was the only person around with any kung fu knowledge, which was usually very limited. Because of this you have all kinds of people with their own versions of styles, their own unique styles of kung fu, with little or no quality control. Just by looking at all the different types of so called hung gar/southern shaolin, you can see some of it isn't as "authentic" as others.

I know that San Dong Hak Fu (Shantung Black Tiger) became very famous for just specializing in the few tiger moves, and created their own style/school/group quite a while ago.

From what my sifu has told me, there is a gung ji fook fu doy dar (taming the tiger sparring set). Basically, it isn't even a "form", just a collection of very simple drills and techniqes. His opinion is to rather spend time on three star blocking, or Fu Hok Doy Dar.

I have noticed recently that on Lam Jo's son's site, they claim that their father created fu hok doy dar. I also believe this to be false. Didn't Wong Fei Hung choreograph this set with the help of Lam Sai Wing? Perhaps Lam Jo created his own version as well?

Paul Skrypichayko
06-21-2000, 06:37 AM
In the days of southern shaolin, I don't think ha say fu, sandong hak fu, or any of the other styles existed.

If someone specialized in tiger techniques, that is what they specialized in. The still practiced shaolin kung fu, or some family style.

Kung Lek
06-22-2000, 01:27 AM
hi-

correct me if i'm wrong but:

hay=lower
say=four(4)
fu=tiger

this is of course the cantonese but is this not the meaning? i have never heard of a village called hay say fu, it's interesting though.

peace

------------------
Kung Lek

Paul Skrypichayko
06-22-2000, 02:00 AM
I dont know, but I wouldnt be surprised ...some villages and places in China have some pretty wierd names.

Anybody on here see that Jet Li movie "Hung Hei Guen"? In English they call it "new legend of shaolin". It is very loosely based on Hung Hei Guen and friends.

06-23-2000, 03:54 AM
Ahh...finally a wealth of knowledge without any barbs at all. You guys are my heroes. Nearly all my questions were just answered. Many thanks! This thread just brought together all kinds of little bits of info for me. This is kind of interesting, but my kwoon seems to have a lot of women. Half of them are in the medical or healing field (this includes me)So it was very interesting to find out a little more about Mok Gwai Lan&Wong Fai Hung being involved in the healing arts.I actually have the Dit Da Jow recipe from them, given to me by my Sifu.

Paul Skrypichayko
06-23-2000, 08:27 AM
Jeez Tigerlilly......all you had to do was wait for it. Or you coulda asked directly!
/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Laukarbo
03-26-2007, 10:25 PM
Bringing an old thread back to life...

here are 2 versions of mui fah kuen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Sc6bINLgJg
this one is Lau Family version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtjpaa-tcxs



as a sidenote Hung Hei Goons son Hung Man Tin was made up by Lau Kar Leung for the movie executioners from shaolin:D

PM
03-26-2007, 11:30 PM
i did not read the whole previous discussion, but as far as i know (as i heard from different people coming form LSW lineage, eg. Wong Lei's stuudents and grandstudents):

mui fa kyun was choreographed by Bun Gwaiyat sifu, who has studied under Lam Saiwing and Lam Jou

wu dip jeung was choreographed by Leung Winghang, student of Lam Saiwing

no Lam Saiwing, no comitte of Hung Kyun sifu's, no Jing Mou Association etc.

TenTigers
03-27-2007, 07:46 AM
"mui fa kyun was choreographed by Bun Gwaiyat sifu, who has studied under Lam Saiwing and Lam Jou"

Choreographed, but not created. I have seen a practitioner from a "non-Hong Kong" Hung-Ga lineage perform a set that was extremely similar, although played alot more aggressive with more forward movement, as opposed to a back and forth type of play. His line, although from Wong Fei-Hung, did NOT come through Lam Sai-Wing. I believe it was through Malaysia.

ymotion
03-27-2007, 11:06 AM
I concur with Pm post regarding Mui fa.

I learned the set from my first sifu who was a student of John leong. he said the same thing PM did.

Also, to clear up any debate about my Sifus (YC Wong) two sets. We have only 2 empty hands set, Gung gee and Fu hok. Both are practiced equally. The gung gee was choreographed by Lam sai wing and Fu hok by Sigung Lam jo. The rest of our 2 man forms are weapon sets.

As to the history lesson Paul has presented. In my nearly 20 years of practicing Hung gar, none of what Paul presents is anywhere near the truth of what I have heard from a variety of lineages. I would agree more with what Haysafu has presented.

Paul, I find that you are not showing good moral character in this matter. Hung gar has always been know for practioners that take the high road. Haysafu, is a knowledgable and good guy. I have met him. You have attacked him and his families character with your truely insulting posts. You may not agree with Haysafu, but that does not give you the right to flame his kung fu family.

You, sir are guilty of bad manners. If anyone is losing face, it is YOU and your family by your insulting tone and remarks. In the old days, such talk would have resulted in someone "showing up at your door" and you getting the s**t beat out of you.

Also when it boils down to it, who cares who trained with who? Good Kung fu is Good kung fu. It is the skill that really matters, not the history.

We all know that there are issues between some of our Sifu's. That was made clear many years ago on this board and the former southern fist forum. They have cleared the air so to speak between them. Everybody show respect to other and these issues for the most part have been resolved between our sifus. Let us not show poor communtiy spirit by getting into things that have nothing to do with us.

banditshaw
03-27-2007, 11:17 AM
Ymotion,
I agree with you on this matter, but look when this thread started and pretty much ended(2000).
It's all old news and most likely water under the bridge so to speak.
Most of the people on the thread don't even post anymore.

specialed
03-27-2007, 05:03 PM
i did not read the whole previous discussion, but as far as i know (as i heard from different people coming form LSW lineage, eg. Wong Lei's stuudents and grandstudents):

mui fa kyun was choreographed by Bun Gwaiyat sifu, who has studied under Lam Saiwing and Lam Jou

wu dip jeung was choreographed by Leung Winghang, student of Lam Saiwing

no Lam Saiwing, no comitte of Hung Kyun sifu's, no Jing Mou Association etc.


Proof of this?

Who cares anyway? Why waste time training this form? Everything in it is expressed elsewhere in the Hung system anyway.

TenTigers
03-27-2007, 06:15 PM
actually, there are specific trapping and dealing with traps within this set that are not seen within the other forms, as such-which is why it was formed.

specialed
03-27-2007, 07:09 PM
actually, there are specific trapping and dealing with traps within this set that are not seen within the other forms, as such-which is why it was formed.

No, not really. But of course if you need more forms, by all means enjoy. Which version are you working on? Book or video?

TenTigers
03-27-2007, 07:27 PM
hmmmm, niether. actually it's a version of Dance Dance Revolution. You get to do the steps of the form along with this neat disco music and japanime cartoons of ninjas. I'm hoping to get the one with numbchux too.
-actually, I'm surprised that nobody invented this yet. It's sure to be a hit with all the McDojo dropouts.
all kidding aside, I understand what you are saying, and I don't believe in forms collectors, but I find this is a good teaching aid. It serves my purposes for now. I guess we'll just agree to dissagree.

Laukarbo
03-27-2007, 10:04 PM
actually this form is good for a beginner to get an idea about hung kuen..
Thats the only short form we use (we dont use lau gar,wu dip,10 killinghands etc.)
Once u know gung gee mui fah is not really important anymore...

PM
03-28-2007, 03:19 AM
Ten Tigers - according my info, form various Chnese teachers, created. i did not just see them, i have talked to them. please tell me more about the sources. all the best!

TenTigers
03-28-2007, 08:11 AM
Basically, what I'm saying is that this form, or at least something quite similar existed previously...or not. Hey, ya never know. The Malaysian teacher might have learned Moi Fa and made his own adjustments as well. I had heard, and I'm sorry, but I don't recall from whom (I talk to anyone and everyone I can about Gung-Fu-could have even been on a forum) that the set was created by more than one teacher. Kind of like a group effort.
Well, potato, po-tah-to. As long as you or I see the value in what we are doing, fine. If it gets a student from point A to point B, if it is useful, then it's good. If not,not.

hasayfu
03-28-2007, 09:29 AM
I seem to remember this 7 year old thread but forgive me if I don't feel like reliving it. Paul S had something against the Chiu's and me which I never understood. Whatever. I'm still around. Not sure what he is doing.

I've definitely learned a lot over the 7 years and the one thing I've taken to heart is that history is just that, HIS-story. My version of the origin of Moi Fah Kuen was told to me by my Si-Gung Chiu Wai. I present it to you as is and it's up to you to believe it or not.

One thing that strikes me as interesting *if* I take this story of group of masters forming the set, then it parallels why almost every major lineage has a unique twist on this simple seeming set.

Every version I have seen has the same "line" repeated a few times. What connects them seem very different. Since 2000, I have seen a Chan Hong Chong version (Through a 2rd gen student from israel), John Leong version (From a 1st gen student from seattle), Lee Yat Ming version (possibly, 3rd gen student who wasn't sure of the origin), Chiu Wai's version (as taught to me) and now Laukarbo's version.

If I stick to my theory, the line and flow was what was agreed and the connectors are where each Sifu could put in their signature moves. Someone asked why learn this set. I do think most if not all of the skills are taught somewhere else in the system. (at least at a conceptual level) As Si Gung told me, this set was supposed to be used AFTER Gung gee to highlight and emphasize Hung Gar fighting applications. It was a bridge between Gung Gee and Fu hok which are two very long and conceptual sets. It would lead to reason that different Sifus would have different favorite applications so would stick them in to give their students that lesson.

OK, that last paragraph is pure speculation on my part. Si-gung Chiu wai was NOT part of the so called committee. It's possible that PMs information is right and the person he named really created the set and all the other versions just mutated from that. My story could just me a nice fantasy to give the set more credence. I'm OK with that too.

For me, the set is special on many levels. First and foremost, it was a set that SiGung taught me personally so it brings back those memories. Second, whether or not the intention was to highlight fighting concepts, it works for me in that manner. Hey, Nutra Sweet was created to be glue so sticking to original use is not always best.

PM, I'm pretty sure SiGung LumJo does not teach this set at his school. (That's what Chan Si-sook told me). Did you learn it or see it from Bun Gwaiyat? Does it look like LauKarBos version? LauKarBo, where does your set come from?

For the record, is pretty close in shape to LauKarBos but longer. It does not follow the line that John Leong's and Lee Yat Ming's follow. The Chan Hong Chong version also follows the same shape as mine and LKBs but is slightly longer then mine.

PM
03-28-2007, 12:45 PM
grandmaster Lam Jou does not teach the set, he does not teach wu dip jeung as well.

i am sure you know big Mr. Wong from Lam gwun, he is a grandstudent of Wong Lei, and he teaches the set to the kids as the first set (mui fa kyun) and wu dip jeung too. Bun Gwaiyat has passed away long time ago. Wong Lei's lineage has one special set called ye fu cheut lam, night tiger emerges form the forest, as Wong lei has studied some naam pai before he came to Lam Gwun.

mui fa kyun of Mr. Wong is pretty close, and to be candid, of all the minor sets (Lau ga kyun, wu dip jeung, mui fa kyun) i like it most - mayb just the fact that it is right hand lead does not suit me well. i really do not like wu dip jeung, just couple of combos from the set. jin jeung is not a minor set, the original one is about two thirds of gjffk long, with nice structure. original Lam family heritage, Siulam jing jung, as Grandmaster told me, coming form Jisin sim si hiding on the opera boats. one of the possible lings between HK and WCH.

by the way, have you ever met 2 sifus who could agree on something? the story about the comittee is nonsense, repeated again and again, one of the many Hung Kyun bull****s around. people should not read old IKF articles, but ask the seniors, old generation of the masters, and read old Chinese articles and books

all the best to you, Hung kyun brothers

HungKuenPride
04-17-2007, 09:53 AM
Interesting. We practice a Mui Fa Kuen (十字梅花拳) here too in the Kwong Tit-Fu lineage helmed by Chin Sifu. Ours is rather similar to the Chan Honjung set, except that we also incorporate the "Drunken Fists" stance into the repeated pattern. Some of the transitions are a little bit different though.

Mui Fa Kuen is the first form that we teach. We have a Siu Mui Fa to teach the people going through the trial classes to give them a bit of a flavor into Hung Gar. It's basically the same thing with the original pattern just going in one direction.