Why do standing locks not work?

[Mr Punch]

Er, why do standing locks not work?

A lot of sporty types say standing locks are very low percentage techniques. I haven't fought in a sport yet, so I'm interested in why this should be...

I've used locks from aiki in all speeds and levels of contact sparring in karate and kungfu... successfully!!! :eek:

By successfully, I don't mean I've snapped anything off, just that it's destroyed someone's body structure enough to then stick some serious striking damage on them or to lead into a throw. Occasionally it's wound up dropping them like a sack of potatoes.

I also have partners in aiki who've used locks very effectively in a variety of street situations...

so...

why do standing locks not work?

Just asking...! Especially those with ring experience, or who practise chinna or locking arts...

[SifuAbel]

" By successfully, I don't mean I've snapped anything off, just that it's destroyed someone's body structure enough to then stick some serious striking damage on them or to lead into a throw. Occasionally it's wound up dropping them like a sack of potatoes."

You've answered your own question. Most people think a standing lock is just that, a standing lock, with no other purpose. They don't realize its a transition. They think its an end unto itself.

[Former castleva]

I kind of agree with SifuAbel,you ask why they won´t work and then simulatenously display some key points to why they do work.
:)

There´s more to it,and btw,ring is...er ring.

[Mr Punch]

That was kind of my point Abel, thanks for reiterating it.

Former: Obviously I believe they do work especially in real situations, that's why I'm asking the question especially of ring fighters...!!! I am well aware of some of the differences between ring, kwoon and street... that's why I was making the distinction...:rolleyes:

What's the more to it then, Former!? And anyone else, especially those with more ring experience than me, especially those who believe they are very low percentage...!

[Former castleva]

You won´t probably be receiving much enlightening information from those who already made up their minds of why they don´t work.
Reasons to dis and dump them would most likely include lack of speed and complexity of technique compared to a straight blast.
Reasons to keep and give would then include possibility to:
-Take control and keep it without major harm.
-Move to a position of advantage while positioning the opponent to a disadvantage.
-Completely or relatively limit opponent´s mobility to either reach out with finishing attacks or just control or take it to the end with the selected technique.
-Alternative way to defend while other ways either fail or become less justified.

BTW,I wonder if pinning counts?
Another method on it´s own if very similar to jointlocking.

Also read this post.
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17342

And as you know,it´s another tool in the box.

[Stacey]

standing locks...the reason is that they don't have the hand techniques to set up for them and they don't have the base to keep them standing.

Most locks are not standing, they get the opponent moving in a certain way. They can be pinned and locked on the ground. Some force them upwards against gravity, but unless you are gonna snap it you might as well sweep them quickly onto their head and maintain the tension in the joint as you switch to another lock.

[Merryprankster]

If you are looking to finish with a standing lock, against a trained opponent, there are too many degrees of freedom of movement for you to isolate and overwhelm.

If you are looking to use it as a transition to something else against a trained opponent, be my guest. I don't see anything inherently "wrong," with that, not that my opinion matters much. I happen not to like them much, but if you train and like them *shrug*. I feel there are more useful ways of breaking structure, but to each their own.


Castlevania--this is one instance where "the ring is not the street," REALLY doesn't hold water. A standing joint lock isn't going to be any more or less effective because of venue. Perhaps the quality of your opponent might change, but then it's an issue that affects everything across the board.

[Former castleva]

"Castlevania--this is one instance where "the ring is not the street," REALLY doesn't hold water. A standing joint lock isn't going to be any more or less effective because of venue. Perhaps the quality of your opponent might change, but then it's an issue that affects everything across the board"

Don´t know about the ring but as far as I see it when you are on the ring,you are there to score points and look good,basically,to reach a position of dominance.
On the street your opponent is less likely to be a skilled "fighter" even though in some cases,he may be doing it for a living too... :confused:
If you are to use such,you´re better be fast and unpredictable.Those are good points.
I think someone said it pretty well that "this groundfighting whoopla has gone too far",that is for groundfighting of course but now if we were to look at jointlocks as secondary things,which actually are good when used properly we were to be falling to the same hole of thinking trough this very one dimension which has surrounded some discussions concerning certain areas before (-as to how things will happen)
That was a bit of a rambling course from me,hard to say if I´ll get the point across but that is where my verbal skills run short for now.
:)

I can see where you are going though,respectfully speaking.

BTW,to me jointlocks are mostly standing,generally.
When you lock someone up on the ground there is a lot of leverage and preferred positioning over your opponent which to me translates to pinning but the line is thin in various cases.

[Dragon Warrior]

when sakuraba fought henzo didnt he apply a standing "kimura" and ended up using it to off balance henzo and obtain superior postition. He ended up finishing the kimura on the ground, but it worked standing up in some context.

[rogue]

Why would you want a standing lock? The reason for a lock is to either control someone or break something. If I'm a cop and have backup and reason to move someone then they're OK. In a self defense situation where I could suffer sufficient harm I don't want to be stuck with my opponent in a lock especially on his feet. At the very least I want him down preferably trying to find his next breath.
Also it's hard to catch the hand of a good puncher.

But I agree with both Abel and Merry, nothing wrong with them as a transition to something else

[Stacey]

why a standing lock??? think about it...so you can manipulate him and make him go where you want to.

Let me tell you a story about why I joined kung fu. Max was a big guy and he was coming out of a kung fu school with his friend. The cholos made fun of them and they tried to leave and then the punks started punching at them. Max got the biggest guy in a double chicken wing and ran full speed towards a wall. The guy tried to dive, but Max arched his back up to keep him going.

Max ran him down a decline to the corner of a building and released him into the brick as max ran past both man and building.

That was one of the single coolest things I have ever seen in my life.


Max (who was a good father and nice to all the kids and community and an upstanding citizen) also put a man's head into a jukebox for repeatedly grabbing his hot wife's ass.

He locke his arm and grabbed his hair and again served it up with a standing joint lock

streetfighting isn't sport

[Former castleva]

"Max (who was a good father and nice to all the kids and community and an upstanding citizen) also put a man's head into a jukebox for repeatedly grabbing his hot wife's ass.
"

:rolleyes:

If I may still have something to say,I´d like to point out that a standing jointlock does not go this way:
"OK,now I grab his arm and apply pressure on this precious joint,this is gonna be uncomfortable..."
There remains the danger of getting kicked in the groin and punched in the face repeatedly.
In a standing jointlock,you will be standing securely but your opponent will be either in considerable pain or at least mechanically disabled,often both.
While you have a grin on your face,your opponent will be on his toes only,half dragged to the ground or twisted into an agonizing position.Therefore it is up to you if you dislocate bones/break joints or keep it there to finish with something alternative unless it is not necessary.
It is necessary for opponent´s balance to be broken in a way or another so it is hard for him to respond.
This is all theory for sure but,to sum things up.

[Daredevil]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of locks, one way or the other. I just like the flow of striking. Of course, locks are good for some stuff, though definately hard to apply (for me -- my master seems to have no trouble pulling them out of any conceivable position and taking me into the most inappropiate of directions). Groundfighting is another monster entirely, but not the focus of this thread.

If I pull a standing lock, I'm not going to stand there idle with it. If I get it, you're going down into the mud so I can stomp your neck. Those locks are for controlling your opponent and his center, taking him into whatever way feels good : maybe into my fist, knee, head, into the brick wall or just the good ol' the ground. I don't view them as submissions, just stuff that happens. They're also great for simultaneous defense. Control one arm and you control the opponent's center with it, and so you don't have worry about the other arm striking you.

So, yes, just like many have pointed out, I feel they're transitional stuff. My approach to this stuff is Bajiquan and Chen Taijiquan based obviously. So, heck, everything is transitional before my opponent is crying for mercy and ****ing his pants or I'm a bloody smear on the pavement. Change, defend/strike (in one movement), change, defend/strike, change, defend/strike, change, knocked out. Strikes, throws and qinna happens depending on what's available, resting on each other. Good stuff. ;) Apply liberally to sporting environment. I don't personally see that much difference between a sport environment and the street -- some techniques may change, but you don't win with techniques, you win with kungfu.

[mantis108]

some techniques may change, but you don't win with techniques, you win with kungfu.

Amen!

Mantis108

[Merryprankster]

Side note for anybody who cares--I doubt you'll control anybody with an ounce of grappling experience long enough to use a standing jointlock even to transition to something else.

That said:


Apply the technique from behind, make sure your grip is secure, keep one leg between your opponents

Better not lose your grip or I'm going to break your leg for you.

[dezhen2001]

:rolleyes:

isnt that why we learn how to control the body (take their balance/distract/and take their centre) and adapt to another technique if something doesnt work? dont grapplers manage to do that with other grapplers? lol countering counters can be fun :D

dawood

[Former castleva]

Uh.Does this mean grappling is not no good then? After all this grapple this/that discussions.lol
:D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Former castleva
Uh.Does this mean grappling is not no good then? After all this grapple this/that discussions.lol
:D

Here's the difference - when I apply my lock, you are on the ground and are immobile - I have control of you. It's also easier to apply eye gouges from the ground.

[yenhoi]

Mobility.
Balance.
Structure.

Keep these things in mind. Also, Expierence.

Locking joints on the ground is easier (see above) finishing the fight or actually breaking things are easier on the ground (see above).

Does that mean that joint locks dont "work" standing, no. Rarely will you be able to attain any sort of 'barganing' position with both people still standing, too many 'options' available for the unlucky person, and too much stuff to monitor consistently for the lucky person.

If you are in a dominant position, you have more control over your own, and your opponents mobility, balance, and structure. You have probably also hurt the other guy while getting your dominant posture.

If your opponent is standing, then he still has his balance, and potential for mobility, and if anything, he has a very small semblence of structure, and if he is resisting, then probably more then you think. I prefer my opponents on the ground, not necessarily with me down there with them.

Being able to grapple, and being able to avoid being grappled, are the same inherent skill (knowledge and expierence of grappling.)

Im not saying that standing jointlocks are useless, or that knowledge of how to move and lever the body around and works etc is not useful in a fight. Detach your sorts of knowledge (laws of motion, the body, grappling, jab) from specific ranges of fighting.

[SevenStar]

I feel about the the same way I do about pressure points - chances are that a newbie will not be able to use them effectively. Through practice over the years, maybe, but not right off. when fighting, you want to keep it simple and stick to what you know you can pull off.

[Former castleva]

"Here's the difference - when I apply my lock, you are on the ground and are immobile - I have control of you. It's also easier to apply eye gouges from the ground."

Most of jointlocking to me,translates to standing but that´s just me.
I think all said about control,mobility etc. has already been said but of course it is good to refresh one´s memory.

[Stranger]

Fingerlocks are easy to learn and are very difficult to escape from without compromising your joint (giving the break) or your posture (giving the takedown).

[SevenStar]

yeah, but you have to actually get the finger...

[Merryprankster]

Guohen,

Actually, I want you moving forward. If you lose your grip and have your leg between mine, I'll go for a rolling kneebar :D


A bit esoteric, I know. I suspect that it's not exactly "common" knowledge.

[Stranger]

In the ring I would say that it would be unlikely to snag a standing lock. I'm not talking about catching punches out of the air, as I know that is low percentage. (Read that again before anybody flips out and has Royce choke me) In the street, a lot of the fights I have seen started with a grab or included a grab during melee. Now I use the term "grab", because I'm not talking about your opponent securing a clinch, chin na, traditional judo randori grip, etc or any other real planned out technique. I'm talking about the guy who grabs you to hold you still while he pounds tha sh1t out of you. He is not disrupting your balance (if you are dealing with the striking hand appropriately) and he is not thinking about that hand on your jacket. You freeze your hand on my clothes, and I know where all five of your fingers are on that hand without even looking. If your job requires arresting skills, it is imperative that you be able to find these locks in a fight even if you need to get sloppy.
I've seen plenty of bouncers and cops use them in the real world; therefore they work.

If I heard an octagon door slam shut behind me and looked across the ring to see Igor Vovchanchyn I would not be saying, "Yeah, this muthafuggahz finger is mine. Time to bring the pain!" I'd sh1t my pants and hope he considered me too gross to touch.

If I was at the ATM and Ezel the Crackhead is dumb enough to come up, grab me, and demand my wallet I might consider snapping his finger.

If you are a cop or a bouncer, you gotta learn standing AND ground jointlocks because you simply can't pound a suspect in any range of combat.

[SevenStar]

agreed. they need to learn control tactics as they cannot just pound someone. I always hear people talk about the assailant that grabs your lapel, shoulder, etc. but I personally have never seen that. there's an exchange of words, and a sudden strike from out of nowhere. I've only seen the grab in movies. I've seen a push before the strike, but never a grab. Now, in a clinch, in an enclosed area, I can see a high chance of standing locks being effective, if you're properly trained, but I personally would opt for other techniques.

[Stranger]

I grew up near Philadelphia and streetfighting seemed to have a Flyers/Broad Street Bullies hockey-esque quality in a lot of the bars (ie. Grab jersey with weak hand / Pound with dominant hand / Fight goes to ground / Dominant player kneels beside pummeled player / Dominant player grabs a handful of the prone guy's shirt or has never let go of it / Pummeling continues).

[sing fu]

The wrist/shoulder/sleeve etc grabs are definately remnants of Japan's feudal era. By grabbing the wrist you could stop someone drawing their sword/knife, and kimono had a design where, if you took the sleeve it disengaged his arm.

I liked what Stranger said about a street confrontation grab. Rather than the extended arm grab seen in jujutsu/aikido, a lot of people get tense when angry, and curl their arm up in an attempt to pull you in. Defences against these (incl. tackles, neck locks, pinned by his friend, etc), as well as the circular attacks not often used in trad. japanese arts, are useful too.

[SevenStar]

That actually makes me curious - I wonder how fighting styles of the non-trained vary from state to state or region to region. Here in my state, it's as I stated above. Small exchange of words, quick strike with followups. If you go to the ground, cool - they stomp and kick you. this same format applies if multiple attackers are involved.

[sing fu]

I've been thinking about the same thing SevenStar! :)

Even in gang-style attacks, weaponry and tactics differs depending on ethnicity. It's interesting seeing where the 'norm' is - I think in Australian society, kicking for example has become more socially acceptable in brawls.

[Stranger]

Philadelphia is colder than Tennessee, therefore we are usually wearing more clothing= more grabbing.

Hockey is insanely popular in Philadelphia (and the Flyers have a long time reputation for being a thug team). This grab and pummel is what hockey fighting is all about.

[dezhen2001]

its interesting that the hombu aikido i studied and continue to play with include all the techniques you just mentioned :)

hmmm... dunno what the 'norm' is in the uk... back home its usually a shove on to a headbutt (scotland :D) but here it seems to be similar to sevenstar (middle england). At least the ones i been part of anyway :p

dawood

[Rolling Elbow]

Well we are all smart this time.... you mentioned the key right off the bat. "Structure"..all you have to do is continuously break someones structure or posture and the strikes in between will do the rest. Locks aren't an end onto themselves, they are a transitional phase. Nice to see I am not the only one who feels this way.

[Rolling Elbow]

O yeah, i almost forgot, applying locks with the zoom (dumag style in the fillipino arts and possibly what in wing chun is a (?) jut sao or sudden jerking force downwards) means that you can break the posture by suddenly using your body weight to snap a structural change to the opponent followed right away by a change in direction (seen allot in aikido) to another broken posture. This "breaking" allows the control until you can get one step ahead of the opponent and possibly break or crush something...So no point to this post, just agreeing!

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by Dragon Warrior
when sakuraba fought henzo didnt he apply a standing "kimura" and ended up using it to off balance henzo and obtain superior postition. He ended up finishing the kimura on the ground, but it worked standing up in some context.

Someone has a memory here. Anyways, Ryron and Renner Gracie have won many a Sport GJJ tourney with standing cross-collar chokes (Gyaku-Juji-Jime or Reverse Cross Lock in Judo). In a couple of instances they didn't even have to pull guard to get enough leverage. The dudes were tapping even before they reached the ground.

I could show you some standing controls and locks from Okinawan Tuite/Tegumi that would make someone think twice about their evaluation of standing grappling. Plus, you learn to take an opponent down in the old-school traditions of Okinawa, using a knee-on-chest position (mount) among other techs..

They can work, but more strength, good angles, sweeps, misdirection and "softening up" is sometimes needed.

[Hau Tien]

Originally posted by Stranger

I've seen plenty of bouncers and cops use them in the real world; therefore they work.

If you are a cop or a bouncer, you gotta learn standing AND ground jointlocks because you simply can't pound a suspect in any range of combat.

I was the head bouncer of a club for 4 years and bounced in another club for an additional two. Plain and simple, joint locks are the way to go.

In my city, I was the first of the non-steroid monkey bouncers. I was about 6'1", 175lbs when I started bouncing, which made me a lot smaller than many of the men I had to control/remove.

Needless to say, moving a 6'6", 300lbs man out the door WITHOUT smashing his face off of numerous pillars (or severely hurting him otherwise) is quite the challenge.

I say 6'6", 300lbs, because that was the situation that I was most thankful I had been given some joint locking training in. The big guy didn't want to leave, went to shove me back and ended up in what we called a "swan lock". He walked VERY nicely and politely with me through the crowded bar and out the door. It was very busy, so he was in that joint lock for a good 10 minutes (There was no thrashing around... it looked like I was simply helping him walk). When I let him go outside the doors, I was expecting to have to deal with him again, but he most certainly didn't want anything more to do with me. AND he wasn't hurt. That made me feel pretty **** good.

I've used the same lock and others hundreds of times since (I no longer bounce... what a horrible industry). Not only do they work, but I've found that once your general brawlers get stuck in a few very painful joint locks they don't mess with you after. Guess they don't wanna see what you COULD do to them while you've got them immobilized.

Ok... I've made my case for security/cops using joint locks... now I'll make comment on using them in street fighting.

Unless, as has been stated, you are using them as a transition to another move (elbow/knee/kick/punch/etc), I wouldn't even consider using something that was taught to me as "pain compliance". I'd try to bust someone's knee, then get the hell out of there. (depending on the situation, of course)

Now... that's just my opinion... you guys might have others, but since I saw bouncers being brought into the thread, I figured since I have a lot of experience in that field that I would speak up:)

[Ben Gash]

Being in a job where I'm prone to attack, I must say that standing locks have saved my ass on more than one occasion. They do work, even as an end in themselves, although you do always have the problem of what do you do with the guy? Telling him calmly what you'll do to him if he tries to attack you when you let go sometimes works. Even if it doesn't you can then say in court that you tried to restrain him but he was intent on causing you harm which forced you break his jaw in 5 places ;)
The reason they don't work in the ring is because people tend to under-commit to their techniques in a sporting format. If you even look like you're thinking of immobilising a limb they'll whip back the technique short.
Sadly Stranger your tactic wouldn't work as small joint manipulation is not allowed in most MMA formats (which would suggest it's pretty effective) .

[SifuAbel]

Wow!, I'm impressed this didn't turn into another Good Grappler tm thread.

[sweaty_dog]

Looks like it just did.

Standing locks are OK but hard to finish since the "victim" has a lot of room to move around and strike if they are on their feet. I have met some people who can use them, particularly on untrained opponents, but they are kind of tricky. They also seem to need more strength and speed than ground submissions.

[SifuAbel]

" Standing locks are OK but hard to finish since the "victim" has a lot of room to move around and strike if they are on their feet."

I can see that even though the point has been made before the same responses keep coming up. Standing Locks are a means to a transition, not an end. They can work if applied properly and they can backfire if the guy doesn't care about the limb in question.

[SevenStar]

How are they normally taught? All the locks I've taught for "self defense" involved using the lock to neutralize a grab. I like the idea of them being used as a transition, but never learned them that way.

[sweaty_dog]

"I can see that even though the point has been made before the same responses keep coming up."

Gee, sorry.

"Standing Locks are a means to a transition, not an end. They can work if applied properly and they can backfire if the guy doesn't care about the limb in question"

Some standing locks can be finished on the feet. Even as a transition, there are places where a strong opponent can wriggle out, more than on the ground. The upside is they can be taken straight into a lock from the feet, Aikido style, without working for position on the ground.

[Rolling Elbow]

The transition depends on whether or not he strugges and how you end up when he does..it is essentially understanding the feeling of "force" from all directions and uderstanding in what direction you should take the opponent next. The opponent invariably always indicates "how" he is to be structurally weakened by the way he reacts to the first lock or action..

[cha kuen]

I think standing locks work just fine if you do them properly and with the correct footwork if needed. ALso you have to practice the locks with different people with different body structures. That is probably the most important.

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[Mr Punch]

Not that it's anything to do with me: what a fantastic thread! Thanks everybody!

The breaking the structure thing can of course mean, as Sweaty Dog says, breaking their structure straight to the ground (that's pretty broken!).

Thanks to Hau Tien too: thinking about it, most of the instances I've seen or heard of them working have been in security situations, not in the street.

[Knifefighter]

The biggest problem with standing joint locks is that in 95% of the cases they leave you vulnerable to arm bars.

[Mr Punch]

Is an arm bar not a joint lock? :confused:

[Xebsball]

LOL

[Knifefighter]

Most standing joint locks are very hard to finish with and leave you vulenerable to be pulled to the ground and finished with an arm bar as you are hitting the ground.

[Chang Style Novice]

Hmmm...the standing locks I know mostly either force the recipient down for a finish or up on their toes. In neither case is the recipient likely to escape by going to the ground, as far as I can tell. There are a few that send him left or right, and these would probably be easier to reverse, but I don't mess with them much for just that reason.

[Kaitain(UK)]

I think there's a difference in definition and scope - I consider a standing joint lock anything that is giving me control of structure

eg if I'm hooked over someone's upper arm with their arm caught behind my back then to me that's a joint lock. It's only good for hyper-extending their elbow or moving them into my other elbow - transitional stuff.
- fairly gross mechanics that arise naturally from stand-up grappling/scuffling

I don't hold with wrist manipulations (excuse the pun) or anything that requires that level of refined technique. I don't have the adrenal control to count on it (dont get in enough 'situations' - which is a good thing imo). I also know that anything that relies on a pain reaction is inherently a bad thing in a fight - you have to dish a lot of pain to anyone who's enraged before they'll notice. A stand-up lock that completely immobilises someone is next to impossible for me to do. Therefore I just have what's come from pushing hands and sparring - sudden opportunities to reduce my opponents options so I can be sure to attack with a much higher percentage.

I'm not doubting some people have the ability to carry it off - but I'd rather take the better percentage.

[Former castleva]

"Is an arm bar not a joint lock? "

Yeah. :)
Dummy name anyway,I prefer chocolate bars etc. but arm bar? That is completely irrelevant.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by SevenStar
How are they normally taught? All the locks I've taught for "self defense" involved using the lock to neutralize a grab. I like the idea of them being used as a transition, but never learned them that way.

Sure you have. Elbow locking into a sweep, or a reap.

[SevenStar]

alright, so I have :p I'll rephrase it. MOST of how I've been taught it - with the exception of shuai chiao - has been that it's to neutralize a grab. A transition was never mentioned.

[Knifefighter]

Usually uses a two-on-one approach, which leaves one hand of the opponent's free to punch.
Very hard to isolated the specific limb being locked.
Hard to keep the opponent in a controlled position and restrict his movements.
The leverage system in most standing joint locks makes them hard to use against someone who is bigger/stronger.