Threats and Challenges

[kj]

I am appalled at the numerous and recurring instances of explicit or implied threats of physical violence on this board in recent weeks, coupled with vain attempts to justify them.

I saw no apparent relevance to the process of learning Wing Chun or martial arts in these instances, but the sort of tit for tat nonsense which spurred the Hatfields and McCoys (http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~dmcco01/McCoy/diversion.html).

There is no ethical or mature justification for such behavior, IMHO, regardless if such threats are real or hollow. It is disappointing, pitiful, and unbefitting a person of character, good will, or lawfulness to resort to threats of interpersonal violence over disagreements of other sorts, let alone for ethical martial artists to do so. As René alluded elsewhere, those who think their self-interest is served by such things are greatly mistaken.

No one could have the bandwidth to call out every objectionable, irrational, or illogical thing that crosses these boards, and I wouldn't dream of holding any one person accountable for policing such a thing. This sort of thing, however, crosses a line that I for one cannot condone through silence. Those who write and say these sorts of things are responsible unto themselves for it.

I strenuously disapprove, and trust there are others who do as well. Mostly, I hope that the energy of such misguided efforts will be re-channelled toward something more constructive.

So that's my public service announcement on the subject.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[reneritchie]

Bravo KJ. Once again an elloquent, reasonable, and considered statement.

BTW- On thing that particularly gauls me is that some people justify their behavior by saying they're 'using good wck and going straight to the center.' What tripe. Good WCK is not crude nor brutish, and it does not clash force head-on. Good WCK keeps its balance and allows others to lose theirs. Good WCK accepts an opponent's momentum and subtly alters it to gain the advantage. Good WCK keeps the center and lets the opponent set up their own doom.

I think if people truly wanted to conduct themselves like WCK (rather than just foist their failing off on it), there'd be more better discussion going on here, not less worse.

RR

[kj]

Thanks, René. Your points re WCK and maintaining center and balance are equally valid.

Regards,
- kj

[yuanfen]

Good link to the Hatfields and Mc Coys KJ.
Real bullets flying.... unlike the Oklahoma -Texas feud early in the 20th century over a bridge on the Red River. The Oklahoma national guard and the texas Rangers faced each other accross a bridge for a while before things cooled down.
Then once in an Arizona-California feud over the Colorado River water, Arizona even hada navy -rubber boats.
But the clan feuds in Northern Pakistan and Afghanistan and even in Baluchistan continues to this day and makes the Hatfields and MCCoy stuff- children's games. Real lineage battles. Joy

PS- enough- I hear wing chun training calling.

[yenhoi]

What a pointless silly post!

I challenge you! Kj! :eek:

[Grendel]

Originally posted by kj
I am appalled at the numerous and recurring instances of explicit or implied threats of physical violence on this board in recent weeks, coupled with vain attempts to justify them.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo
Kathy Jo,

But they started it! :D

Regards and Thanks for the Fish,

[yuanfen]

Its a full moon tonight- after the meteor showers!
Grendel do you have your certificates of sanity handy?

[cha kuen]

There is no room for challenges when we, as wing chun students, can't even bring our wing chun up to par with the last generation.

kung fu books (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=taichimaster06&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25)

[roache]

I am writting here because the threads in question are locked. I am distressed because this whole issue is unneccesary.From beginning to its apparent conclusion what has played out has not sat well with me. Initially I was shocked because a man who is my si-hing and friend wrote of receiving threatening e-mails. Then I learned that they were sent from someone whom I would consider to be extended family. Whatever tension has arisen is anchored in the details of the past and is streched tight by ego. There are three important lessons that I have learned from my beloved sifu, Augustine Fong, that I believe are applicable here.
1) Ego is the biggest obsticle to learning.
2) Never speak badly about another school. Ever.
3) Wing Chun is as varied as the individuals who practise it.

I would never presume to speak for my sifu, but I doubt that he would endourse any animosity between schools. He might even encourage us to see the beauty in the diversity and learn from each other. Before this "discussion" ends I would like to add something to the exchange. I would like to extend my support to Randy Williams and his students. May your school prosper and your knowledge and appreciation of Wing Chun grow ever deeper. By all acounts that I have heard, and not limited to this forum, he is a good man and a good teacher. I,as an individual and as a student of Fong's, hold nothing agaisnt him or his students. The past makes us who we are, but it should not be a constant burdon. Let's move on.
And to my si-hings (Joy, Patrick and anyone else who kicks my @ss at reunion seminars I look forward to seeing you again soon. I always value your experience and wisdom.

Train well, Be well
Emmet Roache

[roache]

ps
All grammatical mistakes are mine and are a reflection on me trying to do too much at the start of a work day. They not reflect on my sifu or his knowledge of the english language.
thnk U

[quiet man]

Great stuff, kj! Behind you 100%...

I think we all have something in common: love for WC and martial arts in general, love for your sifu and sihings, love for people who spend their lives refining their skill and themselves. And if that's true, then as far as I'm concerned, your heart's in the right place (even if your arms and legs aren't :D ;) ).

[Grendel]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Its a full moon tonight- after the meteor showers!
Grendel do you have your certificates of sanity handy?
I don't have enough for everyone. Some will have to share. :D

[Patrick Gordon]

Originally posted by roache
I am distressed because this whole issue is unneccesary.From beginning to its apparent conclusion what has played out has not sat well with me. Initially I was shocked because a man who is my si-hing and friend wrote of receiving threatening e-mails. Then I learned that they were sent from someone whom I would consider to be extended family. Whatever tension has arisen is anchored in the details of the past and is streched tight by ego. There are three important lessons that I have learned from my beloved sifu, Augustine Fong, that I believe are applicable here.
1) Ego is the biggest obsticle to learning.
2) Never speak badly about another school. Ever.
3) Wing Chun is as varied as the individuals who practise it.

Hello Emmet,

Well said. I am sorry others have had to read all this mess. I made the mistake of talking poorly about someone in regards to second hand information. Even had I been present to witness anything that went on between Sifu and Mr. Williams, I should know better than to talk poorly of someone. It is something I usually don't do and know it is something sifu teaches us not to ever do. My mistake. PG

(QUOTE)
I would never presume to speak for my sifu, but I doubt that he would endourse any animosity between schools. He might even encourage us to see the beauty in the diversity and learn from each other.

Well said again. PG.

(QUOTE)
Before this "discussion" ends I would like to add something to the exchange. I would like to extend my support to Randy Williams and his students. May your school prosper and your knowledge and appreciation of Wing Chun grow ever deeper. By all acounts that I have heard, and not limited to this forum, he is a good man and a good teacher. I,as an individual and as a student of Fong's, hold nothing agaisnt him or his students. The past makes us who we are, but it should not be a constant burdon. Let's move on.

Again, very well said. PG.

((QUOTE)
And to my si-hings (Joy, Patrick and anyone else who kicks my @ss at reunion seminars I look forward to seeing you again soon. I always value your experience and wisdom.

Good to hear from you. I am glad someone came forward to speak as Sifu would want...you beat me to it, ****! I will still write something soon in order to apolagize for my mis-conduct. I also want to remind any other Fong people on this chat site how sifu would want you to behave when concerning or dealing with other persons, styles, families etc. take care, sincerely,

Patrick Gordon.

Train well, Be well
Emmet Roache

[GeneChing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8Oe1vmkcn8

THREADS
Threats and Challenges (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?17738-Threats-and-Challenges)
Xu Xiaodong Challenges to Kung Fu (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?70253-Xu-Xiaodong-Challenges-to-Kung-Fu)

[Djuan]

well......I didnt see any wing chun here lol he needs to find better challengers and ambassadors of these arts he wants to debunk, there are WAY too many better fighters for him to put this show on, with the face paint. My niece could have beat up the pressure point man and she 9 years old lol
the video title is pure clickbait and insults Ip Man and Wing Chun smh :rolleyes: :o :confused: ;) :D

Amituofo

[GeneChing]

Canadian wing chun master Pierre Flores wants to strike a blow for martial arts against Xu Xiaodong (https://www.scmp.com/sport/martial-arts/kung-fu/article/3017065/canadian-wing-chun-master-pierre-flores-wants-strike)
‘The way he does it is wrong. It is not right to assume all martial arts are fake,’ says Pierre-Francois Flores, who wins latest bout in less than a minute
The 43-year-old Flores caused stir in 2017 when he challenged Vietnamese kung fu ‘fraud’ Huynh Tan Kiet
Nicolas Atkin
Published: 2:41pm, 3 Jul, 2019

https://cdn.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/1200x800/public/d8/images/methode/2019/07/03/b41f7230-9d51-11e9-baa5-dd214ed0de8f_image_hires_144152.jpg?itok=_CixLWLN&v=1562136116
Pierre-Francois Flores (left) wants to fight Xu Xiaodong to get revenge for wing chun. Photos: YouTube

Outspoken Chinese MMA fighter Xu Xiaodong has been challenged by yet another wing chun master who says he is looking to defend the honour of traditional martial arts – but this one is Canadian and actually won a few fights.
Pierre-Francois Flores was in Hanoi last week and beat amateur fighter Luu Cuong under kick-boxing rules – though he was reportedly 12kg heavier than his opponent.
The 43-year-old caused a stir in 2017 when he competed in a full-contact bout with a local karate practitioner. The unsanctioned fight at a secret location was “in the spirit of friendship and martial arts”, according to his opponent, Doan Bao Chau, whom Flores dropped twice.
Flores had originally planned to travel to Vietnam to challenge Huynh Tan Kiet, the founder and “grandmaster” of Nam Huynh Dao. Flores believes Kiet is a fraud for claiming he can channel electricity through his body to perform martial arts – so in that regard he has something in common with Xu.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqr_6y9aB5c

Xu has also made it his mission to expose “fake” kung fu – but Flores said Xu has made him angry and he wants to get revenge for wing chun.
Flores, who likes to promote respect between fighters, said he also wants to prove that the old traditional martial arts still have some values. continued next post

[GeneChing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9nKusOzZQ4

“I was the first to accept a match with him, and I made it clear in the press,” Flores told Vietnamese media. “There is nothing complicated here.
“Xu Xiaodong may not have known who I was two years ago when I ‘knocked on his door’. Now it all depends on whether he wants to open the door or not.
“The way he does it is wrong. It is not right to assume that all martial arts are fake,” Flores added. “That is the mistake of Xu Xiaodong. There are good and bad things, but you can’t equate them all.”
Flores’ latest win took less than a minute. It was determined Luu was unable to continue after a spinning back elbow.
“Thank you Luu Cuong for this exchange! It was really nice to exchange with you,” Flores wrote on Facebook.
Flores has also called for a fight with professional Vietnamese boxer Truong Dinh Hoang, who turned down the challenge because he is preparing for the Southeast Asian Games in the Philippines later this year.
“If anyone wants to organise my match with Flores and my entire ticket sales and remuneration, I will devote everything to charity,” Truong said. “Then everyone would be allowed to watch it properly. It benefits all people and society.
“Why do I talk about organising a decent match with ticket sales? Because there are so many people who want to see me and Flores fight. Why not have a good match, and still do many useful things for society?
“I’ve never tried to escape before. I am a boxer and my job is to fight.”

THREADS
Threats and Challenges (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?17738-Threats-and-Challenges)

Xu Xiaodong Challenges to Kung Fu (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?70253-Xu-Xiaodong-Challenges-to-Kung-Fu)

[GeneChing]

I'm disappointed that there aren't more practitioners showing up on Xu's doorstep. I've had a few people submit articles 'answering' Xu with theory, but that's not the way. If anything, that just shows how out of touch those writers are.

We published a genuine challenge response two years ago, but it was never answered. See Tai Chi’s Nick Osipczak Answers Xu Xiaodong’s Defeat of Wei Lei (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/index.php?p=article&article=1361) by Andrew Judge


Mixed Martial Arts
Canadian wing chun master Pierre Flores turns up outside Xu Xiaodong’s gym in Beijing to issue challenge (https://www.scmp.com/sport/martial-arts/mixed-martial-arts/article/3018180/canadian-wing-chun-master-pierre-flores-turns)
Pierre Francois Flores says the outspoken Chinese MMA fighter is a ‘brave warrior’ but is confident he can beat him
‘I am here to prove to Xu Xiaodong another version of wing chun’
Nicolas Atkin
Published: 4:21pm, 11 Jul, 2019

https://cdn.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/1200x800/public/d8/images/methode/2019/07/11/16c1eeec-a3a9-11e9-9a3c-98259c87fba2_image_hires_164823.jpg?itok=lPSjKl4c&v=1562834908
Pierre Francois Flores says he turned up at Xu Xiaodong’s gym to challenge the Chinese MMA fighter. Photo: Facebook/Pierre Francois Flores

Canadian wing chun master Pierre Francois Flores has taken things a step further in his bid to challenge Chinese MMA fighter Xu Xiaodong.
Flores flew from Vietnam to China this week and turned up outside the outspoken 41-year-old’s gym in Chaoyang District, Beijing. “Mad Dog” was seemingly not there, but that didn’t stop Flores, who wants to strike a blow for traditional martial arts against Xu, from talking some smack.
“He’s a very brave warrior, and I know him because I watch his training, he’s just like a lion,” Flores said of Xu. “But there’s a saying in Vietnam – before you get into the battle, know yourself, and know your opponent. When you do, you know the result of the battle.
“And I know Xu Xiaodong, and I know myself and I know what’s gonna be the result. That’s why I’m here. To prove to Xu Xiaodong there’s many other wing chun versions to face, and I am only one of the many.”
Two years ago, Xu issued an open challenge to all traditional martial artists after dishing out a brutal 10-second beating to the so-called tai chi master Wei Li, launching his mission to expose “fake kung fu”.
“I accept this challenge and that’s why I’m here,” Flores said. “Xu Xiaodong not only defeated Wei Lei, the tai chi master, but after he beat up many masters of wing chun.
“So wing chun has lost some credibility because of this, but you cannot judge because of a few bad apple masters a whole system.”
Xu’s actions and words have seen him censored in China where he has been delisted on some search engines and regularly has his social media accounts removed.
He also had his social credit score reduced to a D-level – banning him from travelling on high-speed transport, and from staying in star-rated hotels, among other societal sanctions.
Xu said these sanctions were lifted after he paid around 400,000 yuan in damages and issued a public apology for calling tai chi grandmaster Chen Xiaowang a fraud. But he wants to become an Australian citizen so he can countersue Chen there.

https://cdn.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/d8/images/methode/2019/07/11/ddc26a40-a3a8-11e9-9a3c-98259c87fba2_972x_164823.JPG
Pierre Flores and Xu Xiaodong. Photos: YouTube/Facebook

“Wing chun has existed for more than 300 years and wing chun is like a big family, a big tree with many branches. And my branch is from Vietnam, it is an orthodox wing chun branch, a Shaolin wing chun branch actually,” Flores said.
The 43-year-old Flores first caused a stir in 2017 when he challenged Vietnamese kung fu “fraud” Huynh Tan Kiet.
He instead competed in a full-contact bout with a local karate practitioner and has won other bouts with local fighters since.
“My master is Vietnamese, and he raised me like my father for more than 21 years. So his cause is my cause,” Flores said.
“I came here to wave the Vietnam flag, to represent this beautiful country and to show there is a big branch in Vietnam and I’m wearing this flag on my heart. I’m here to prove to Xu Xiaodong another version of wing chun.”

THREADS
Xu Xiaodong (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?70253-Xu-Xiaodong-Challenges-to-Kung-Fu)
Threats and Challenges (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?17738-Threats-and-Challenges)

[GeneChing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcnkublyl4Q

THREADS
Threats and Challenges (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?17738-Threats-and-Challenges)

Xu Xiaodong Challenges to Kung Fu (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?70253-Xu-Xiaodong-Challenges-to-Kung-Fu)