Tai chi, hsing i, Pa kua video clips!

[cha kuen]

Many good clips on hsing yi, waterboxing, chen tai chi and pa kua. His uprooting power is awesome and looks real.

Here's the link:
http://www.hsing-i.com/pics/index.html




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[Shadow Dragon]

The Chen small Circle first section looks a bit odd to me.

Movements and sequence are different from the Small frame form I am learning.

Cheers.

[Walter Joyce]

Been there before. Looks external to me, if you care to make that distinction.

[Justa Man]

Looks external to me

You're buggin man. That's Mike Patterson.

[Walter Joyce]

Three things.

I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

It is not always fair to judge from a tape.

Fighting skill and internal fighting skill are two different beasts from the same family.

Just because it looks external to me doesn't mean it is, and doesn't mean its not fighting skill. Like I said to someone else recently, if someone kicks your a$$, you're not gonna say to him, "hey, that wasn't internal."

[Waidan]

That would be pretty funny though:

"Wow, that guy just threw you through a windshield and broke your collarbone!"

"Yeah, but it was all 'li'. Dude's got no real skill."

:p

[Justa Man]

Just because it looks external to me doesn't mean it is, and doesn't mean its not fighting skill.

You're right. In this instance it is not external.


Like I said to someone else recently, if someone kicks your a$$, you're not gonna say to him, "hey, that wasn't internal."

What's your point?

[Justa Man]

Just because it looks external to me doesn't mean it is, and doesn't mean its not fighting skill.

You're right. In this instance it is not external.


Like I said to someone else recently, if someone kicks your a$$, you're not gonna say to him, "hey, that wasn't internal."

It would be pretty funny, like how Waidan said, but what's your point?

[Walter Joyce]

Whats your point? I think mine was clear enough.

[Kumkuat]

I don't think anybody here is good enough to determine if someone is moving internally by just a clip. And besides, just because you can kick someone's butt doesn't mean you're doing it internally.

[Justa Man]

My point.
You commented on Mike Patterson's clips, saying they look external. I said you were buggin. You then went on to say 3 things. One, that you could be wrong. Well, of course you could be wrong. That's why I said you were buggin. Two, that it isn't fair to judge from a tape. Well, of course it isn't fair Walter. I think everyone knows that. But that you know this, yet still judged is odd. Three, that fighting skill and internal fighting skill are two different beasts from the same family. Besides this last one being irrelavent to the topic, again you are saying something that is blatently obvious.

I felt like you could have gone further with your comments. Like maybe they were leadijng up to something, but you only stated the obvious, and thus I feel you had no point other than to point out the obvious.

So, Walter, what's your point?

[Stacey]

Those are some of the best looking CMA clips on the internet. He has kung fu. Internal and external are relative. Who cares, he can root, connect his body and move smoothly. I think his kung fu looks good.

[cha kuen]

Those are some of the best video clips on the net because Patteron actually has a foundation to work off of and his uprooting stuff is real and not like those guys that have his students jump back!

But...good stuff I think.

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[Walter Joyce]

First, this is a board where people posts opinions. Feel free to agree or disagree. You twice asked for an explanation of my "point", so here it is.

As to "it looks external to me": this is not necessarily an insult. The basis of the comment lies in my earlier training in kenpo. In the system I studied at the highest level that I was taught in that system I saw a high degree of similarity in moving around an opponent and striking compared with what I saw in the ba gua applications videos.

Every internal art has an external component, get over it.

My second set of comments, without listing each and responding seriatim, were aimed at allowing for error in my assessment and stating what the possible basis for that error might be. My comments as to it not mattering what method was used if the person defeats you with it was an attempt at humor, and a assertion of the principle that at the heart of it, distinctions as to internal and external are more imortant in training than in fighting. Someone made the point, and think it was well stated, that no one here can tell for certain if someone is moving internally or externally from a video. I believe that videos are at best a guide to the external expression of any art, not its internal roots.

These are my opinions, feel free to express your own. When I express mine I accept that I may be wrong. I write here more to discover what I am trying to understand rather than to showcase any knowledge. (If that were my aim my posts would be less, and shorter.) Sometimes I think carefully before I post, other times I treat the board as a casual conversation and just post an off hand comment. The post in question was an example of the latter.

If you have it all figured out, and post for a different reason, then feel free to do so.

While this is only a type-written medium, I did detect a ceratin hostility to your posts. If I am wrong about that, well add that to any lists you may be keeping of my errors.

If I am right, I ask, whats the problem? Do you always get angry when you disagree with people or is something else at play?

[Justa Man]

Every internal art has an external component, get over it.
Your assumption is amusing Walter. I never had a problem with it to begin with.

You know, I did have a problem with you. Your first comment was what you decribed; treating the board as a casual conversation and just posting an off hand comment. I felt like once you got called out on it, you then went into the "free of liability" post. Your first post seemed to be exactly what you later described as a showcase of knowledge, just because it was as you described; short. It was this assumed knowledge you showcased incorrectly that ticked me off, because it's Mike Patterson we were looking at, not Joe Idaho who has some internal art clips for show on his website.
That was my hostility you correctly detected. But you explained yourself well, and I understand things better. There is however something about you I don't really like, I can't place my finger on it, but I don't have to like you. I respect you for your explanation and appreciate it.

[Walter Joyce]

You don't know me.

There is more to me than my posts, although I am fairly straightforward in them.

But you're right, there is no need for you to like me, even if you did know me.

[kungfu cowboy]

It's cool that the guy from Faith No More does Kung Fu.

[Muppet]

So what's the big deal with Mike Patterson?

I've seen his site and I have his site to thank for finding my current instructor, but other than that, I haven't seen or heard too many things either about him or his hsing i sifu.

Thanks.

[cagey_vet]

if you have seen the site, and you still have to ask
what the deal is with mike patterson, then you didnt
really read what the site contained. ask your teacher.

[Muppet]

You're missing what I'm saying.

Outside of his site, I haven't really seen or heard much about Patterson or his sifu, and from his site, it doesn't seem like he's trying to keep a low-profile about what he does.

Quite the opposite, actually.

So why the big deal like everyone is supposed to know and respect him?

In fact, of the thousands of neijia instructors, there are only a few names (e.g., Chen Xiao Wang, Li Tai Liang, etc.) that are near-universally in high regard

I'm not saying that Patterson's good or bad, but most people agree that you can't really tell a person's internal skills from video clips alone and anyone who makes MA their livelihood are inclined to promote themselves.

[cha kuen]

Muppet,

You mentioned that you found your instructor from his website? Was he apart of the ones that Patterson approved of or the general other listings ?

Just wondering.

Also, what sifus you hear about depends on which martial art circles you are in. I used to be in a martial arts circle (talking about wing chun) only heard about Yip Man, wong shun leung, Leung Ting , Edmin Bozotepe.

Now that I'm in a different circle I hear a lot about other sifus such as Tsui Seung Tin, Chan Jing Chong, Mike patterson, Steve martin, Ng Chun Hong, and others others others.

Every school or teacher has his own "circle" that he's exposed to.

BTW- Mike Patterson's guys dominate the fighting matches at the great lakes tournametn every year. I'd put him up there as one of the best in the US.

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[Kumkuat]

chakuen, it doesn't really matter if Patterson's group dominates some tournament. Like I said earlier, fighting abilty is not equal to internal abilty. Since Patterson is an internal martial arts teacher we should be more worried about if he can move internally rather than if he can fight. And we are not good enough to really tell if he moves internally or not from his clips.

[cha kuen]

Kum Kat,

I was just replying to the question of " Why should we know patterson? What has he done that's significant in the MA?"

But fighting ability does matter because , to me, whether you practice internal or external, you should be able to apply it and be a fighter. (if that is your focus)

True , Ii'm not good enough to tell whether he's connected or not. I just hear from other people who are, that he is really connected.

Walter,

I agree . You can have your own opinions and this is what a board is for, sharing your thoughts.

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[Waidan]

Just FYI, living in the Golden State, I hear quite a lot about Patterson and his students. I've never met the man or anyone who's trained with him long-term, so I don't have a personal opinion on him. But that being said, he does have quite a reputation locally, both in regards to his personal skill level and his ability to train full contact fighters.

Pretty much anyone living here practicing nei gung knows of Patterson, Tim Cartmell, and Jason Tsou, and they are (at least in my experience) very well respected by the local cma community.

Mind you I'm not weighing in on the video clips (I don't have much to add), I just thought I'd give a local perspective. :)

[looking_up]

From what I've read, Mr. Patterson received quality instruction in Hsing-I from well regarded teachers in Taiwan, whose internal skill is not questioned. He started training as a teen-ager, and I think he spent close to ten years, maybe more, maybe less, learning hsing-i. SO, if _he_ didn't learn real internal skill, who out there is learning real internal skill? My point is that he has a better chance of having ((l)earned) the skill than most people.
He was probably exposed to a much more raw version of hsing-i instruction than most people would get these days - getting his ass beat was probably a little more acceptable when and where he trained vs. where most of us train.

So, out of sheer curiosity, I'm trying to figure out - how do we learn these internal skills? I thought it took correct teaching (not necessarily secrets) + ***doing the work/gong practice. Lotsa gong -> gong fu, no?

All I know is, it seems to be working for me...time is my only obstacle...


Respectfully -
- David

[cha kuen]

I agree. Internal training is not easy and all those "monks" with spears in their throats are representing stupid chi kung, IMHO. I read an article by Gene Ching on the kungfumagazine.com and i thought it was ridiculous but hey, kfo has to make money right? The journal of asian martial arts seesm to be a better resource but even that has some sifu articles on iron palm. (That guy isn't good at iron palm)

Learning the posture and practicing that to get rooted will take you a year or more. Then you have to learn how to issue power. Most of that doesn't interest people when all that interests people are speed, power and fah jing or ging. They're not willing to workfor it and there's not enough people who know how to lead you down the road for it.

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[looking_up]

error

[looking_up]

I was taught to stand. That is the core. When
I don't have time or room to practice quan, I practice qigong. I barely practice quan 5 times a week (I know - weak) but I do a decent amount of
single movement exercises.

I have a buddy who weighs at least 40 pounds more than I do, and has been training martially for the past 5 or 6 years (mostly karate), we've both been training taiji for the same time. I took a 10 year+ hiatus from martial training, so it was like I was starting over.

Because of differences in schedule, responsibilities, perhaps discipline, I have more time to practice standing, plus I know that it is more powerful than doing tons of empty quan.

Just yesterday we were working out. I didn't see him do any standing at the session, I doubt he had
done any that day. For the first time, I was able to uproot him when pushing hands. Granted, we're both crappy at pushhands, but not absolute beginners. We could both use a lot of work on
neutralizing energy.

Until now, I've felt like a little b!tch when we touch, but this time, it was different. And no one was more surprised than I was when I was able to uproot him over and over. But my ass will be humbled the next time I push with the teacher, of course.

My point? No secrets. Just practice. Move less, think more. If my scrawny ass can learn to do it, anyone can do it. Internal = mind power. This is just the beginning. I am still standing outside the door.

[CD Lee]

All I can say is...if Mike Patterson does not have good Xingyi, the bar has been raised to unrealistic heights. Yes, there can always be better in anything, but lets get real.

I have his video on Hsing-I Five Fists. Whether you think he has internal skill or not, he can use Xingyi with great speed. Taking into account that he has lot of real fighting experience, I would trust his application and teaching over most others.

BTW, his Serving Tea video clip does not look very external to me. That should give you a clue as to how he works power into his form.

My 2 cents.

[cha kuen]

Good post, thanks for your reply CD LEE.

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[looking_up]

CD Lee -

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at...if not someone like Mike, than who? There was a similar thread going on @ Emptyflower about how Chen Xiao Wang does not have real taiji skill. Ok, than who does? Who has put in more work, and has had access to more authentic teaching? Very few...

[cha kuen]

Looking up,

Good post.

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[Royal Dragon]

Question?
There was a similar thread going on @ Emptyflower about how Chen Xiao Wang does not have real taiji skill. Ok, than who does?

Answer:
Wai Lun Choi