Yang Hai a fake

[wuwei]

After seeing and talking to past students of this teacher located in Montreal(downtown), I am positove that this guy doesn't know the complete style that he teaches.
He has a school that teaches Chen, Bagua, hsing-yi. One example is that he says that he teaches weapons, but has never taught anyone, or has anyone ever seen him do it.
He boast too much and says that he doesn't want to teach women or blacks!:eek:

[Liu Yun Qaio]

You are nothing!?!

[wuwei]

i am nothing......Nothing is everything.
If you don't care then don't post.

[Spirit Writer]

I think its a little premature to judge a teacher by his students (maybe they are stupid and lazy) or by what he DOESN'T show.

You can come to my house and I may force you to watch hours of pbs (public television), doesn't mean I don't have a satelite hook up -- I just may want you to leave.

There's only one way to know. Go find out for yourself.

[Felipe Bido]

Don't judge a teacher by his students. I have seen very good teachers with lousy (extremely lousy) students, because they are lazy. the teacher can't control what they do out of the school; if they practice alone in their houses, or their discipline.

Maybe he hasn't taught weapons, because he thinks that they haven't reached the skill to do a good use of the forms.

But I don't know the guy. I might be wrong

[jon]

"He boast too much and says that he doesn't want to teach women or blacks!"
* Well lets see... This teacher has an obvious ego (according to you) and is a racist. Yet you still wish to know if you should learn off him?
My experience has been that most racists are also raving lunatics who cant think for themselfs.
My sifus father was killed by the Japanese in WW2, he now helps organise multicultral festivals.

Seriously that is really messed up, i would run a mile from someone with an attitude like that.

[BAI HE]

Racism is rooted in fear and ignorance.
If this man has no moral courage what sort
of a martial artist could he be?
Walk away.

[wuwei]

walking away sounds like the best advice.
Being a racist like that does show weakness.
Should look for other teacher.
Anyone know of a good tai chi teacher in Montreal???

[wuwei]

anyone in MOntreal with info on a good tai chi teacher?

[count]

I'm not in Montreal but here ya go! (http://www.wutang-canada.com/)

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by wuwei
He boast too much and says that he doesn't want to teach women or blacks!:eek:

Kick him in the balls for me, will you?
Kick hard, kick with nasty boots.

[The Willow Sword]

I am in Montreal for another week and would like to know where exactly this school is. i would like to check it out and see for myself. does this school have a website???

Many Respects,,The Willow Sword

[The Willow Sword]

did a quick search and here is the site i found with pics.

http://groups.msn.com/internal/_homepage.msnw?pgmarket=en-ca

[wuwei]

I think his site is www.wudanginternal.com
would walk away from him if i were you.
Count, thanks for the listing!!

[count]

You are welcome, and please don't confuse Wu Tang with Wudang.:cool:

[Crimson Phoenix]

Actually after reading his FAQ, I must admit I have a good a priori on him. It's just an a priori that stemed from a couple of words, of course, therefore it has not much value, but even though, he says very clever and humble things in it...
Some examples I quote:

"in my opinion, one hour serious training is better than 10 hours' casual training." (not very commercial, but rather honest)
"Qi Gong can be used as self-defense. But, that should be martial art Qi Gong. Zhineng Qi Gong is for health, not for self-defence." (he makes things clear, not like all the people making you believe you'll drop opponents without ever touching them)

"(on the question "Is internal better than external??") I do not think so. Different styles have different advantages, and everything depends on individual practice." (now that's quite honest for a guy teaching only internal styles...many others instead lenghtily discuss on how internal arts are so superior to external ones).

"(on the question of "Can I study other styles along internal style"):I think it is possible. Because the internal style can become the complementary training to external style. And, there are some students in my school still take some other training such as Shaolin, Karate, Judo at the same time. I told them, you can take any training when you will you can make a progress". (You can say whatever you want, but that guys at least sounds tolerant and lucid about his teaching and other's as well).

There are many more, but I do not want to sound like I'm doing him some advertising. I never heard of that guy before. He seems to have had quality teachers though, but having prestigious teachers do not necessarily make you prestigious students (too bad for me LOL). All I want to say is that at least he gives a very good and humble image over the net, and that if these words are not his, he definitely did a fine job chosing them. I have seldom seen internal teachers say things like "internal is not necessarily better than external" or "you can get good things from other styles" when they are fakes...on the contrary, they usually try to seduce you with mystic mumbo jumbo and powers, while at the same time cussing the "unrefined external arts".

So I definitely give this guy the benefit of the doubt, and unless some posters here go to his school and truly expose a fake, I'll keep thinking so.

Wuwei, I don't mean to be rude but you just come out of nowhere in here and start cussing this man as a first post. Usually it's not a good sign. You wouldn't be trying to stain him would you?
All you have is hearsay from former students. I have sometimes heard former students of very good teachers cuss them...but after a little analysis, it was often a question of ego, of plain lie (it's always easier to put the blame on someone else than us), something that went wrong for personnal reasons between them, or most of the time people saying "he doesn't possess what people say he does" or things along "he wouldn't teach me some stuffs" (these persons, of course, never even a second wondered if maybe they were just not worthy of beeing taught these things they ardently desired)...All I can say is why don't you go to his school and see for your self?
In the martial world, hands speak louder than words. It's really the best way to make your own idea about him, and if he indeed is a fake, then you can just turn the page and spend your time finding a quality teacher. All the time spent doing so is never lost...

[wuwei]

crimson pheonix, what do you mean by me coming out of nowhere?:confused: are you so knowledgable...
I have been to this school recently and saw first hand of a man who has no skill in teaching.I'm glad that i train elsewhere.
You can't judge by the web site of what he writes.Do you believe everything on the net??

[Crimson Phoenix]

When I say "you're coming out of nowhere", I'm speaking forum-wise. It was your first post, and it was used to criticize.
I'm not commenting anything on your martial curriculum in real life, since I know nothing about it. Hence, you shouldn't feel so insecure because of my words. Maybe your critic is justified, maybe not.
I give both you and this Mister Yang Hai the benefit of the doubt, since I know nothing about both of you. I just pointed out that usually people starting their "carreer" as posters here with a critics makes me doubtful...it's just me, once bitten twice shy.
I also merely pointed out that (I state my own post) "if this Yang Hai is a fake, at least he carefully and cleverly chose his words". I concluded by a positive a priori about him, just judging from his site. And all a priori, by definition I'd say, are not reliable.
You read way too much into my words, and hear me say things I carefully watched out not to.
I could comment on how seeing a person in one single class is a bit fast to judge whether he's realy able to teach, but I'm afraid you'd take it as an attack or as some sign that I think I know everything. Both aren't the case.
So I'll finish with this: good to you that you found a good place to train, because in the end it is all that matters.

[wuwei]

right on!
yes am happy to have found good training.

[wuwei]

training in pakua with a great teacher.
I still think Yang is a wacko..

[palanka]

.

[TkdWarrior]

well if u guys want WingChun n BJJ mixed then i can give u name of teacher in Monteral...
anyways i m with Crimsom on giving benefit of doubt, if i doubt him then i'll doubt u wuwei. as myself know nothing of this guy or u...
-TkdWarrior-

[Laughing Cow]

Checked the Site.

Can't find any major flaws or discrepancies with the Chen Info I got.
His talk about the Chen style he teaches is a bit jumbled (Old style, etc).
His lineage sounds plausible too, but that I think can be easily verified.

Looks like weapons(Sword) won't be taught till "Level 9" .

I was taught that the sequence is:
Forms, Tui Shou, San Shou, Weapons.
So unless you study quiet a few years under him I doubt that the weapons will be taught.

Checked the Pics for Chen TJQ and there I see a few points that some might take not correctly done, but I don't think anybody can tell till they have either seen him in person or touched Hand.

Considering that most of those pictures are posed and hardly ever taking during a forms practice.
;)

Nothing obvious that would suggest a fake to me.

As for past students:
1.) How long did they study under him?
2.) What were their expectations?
3.) Why and under what conditions did they leave?

At my kwoon it takes appr. 1 yr to learn the movements of the "first road".

Cheers.

P.S.: I haven't seen my Sifu teach Sword either, but have seen him demo it as well as double sword.

[TaoBoxer]

But the site doesn't seem too hokey.... Decent info and no wild claims.

As sad as it sounds, I must say, hearing that an Asian said they don't like African Americans doesn't surprise me at all. (There is no proof this gentleman did that) In my experience they can be some of the most racist people imaginable. They tend to hate most other Asians and especially hate African Americans. I have talked to some of the old-time military guys who trained in Taiwan and Japan years ago and listened to their experiences. Even apart from that, I have listened and watched to how my teachers have treated prospective students and customers in their shops.

It doesn't make them enlightened people, but it doesn't mean you can't learn from them either. I studied from a very Christian man once...and I'm not a Christian. I won't have them over for dinner, but if I waited to only study martial arts from sober, stable, down to earth, non-xenophobic, enlightened Sifu.... I'd never train at all.

[Esteban]

Hi,

haven't looked at the site in question. But, I did want to say something about the Chinese racism thing. I'm African American, btw. Anyway, I don't think the attitude of Chinese from China about Black people is any different from the attitudes that Americans have exported for years, in person and in film. In fact, I think their attitude is encouraged by their desire for American approval. It's absolutely silly to think that people who have never even seen a black person, except on screen, are inherently racist toward those people. Where do you think it came from? Certainly, there is plenty of ethnic animus in China, and in Asia, generally. It's easy to look at the Japan, China, Korea connection; but, it's equally easy to find hatred, mistrust, and ethnic violence among different peoples on the mainland. The Chinese, unfortunately, are just like many people every where else in the world. Shucks, they are "most" of the people in the rest of the world.

I can give you another reason, from personal experience, why some Chinese in America have refused to teach Black Americans. It's the same reason that most hotel owners, educators, employers, etc., in the American South put up posters saying "No coloreds allowed." I.e., to please and placate the racist Whites who invented and benefitted from racism. Even if the owner wasn't racist, he had to keep up appearances. Frankly, I know that some people here (Chinese and otherwise) like to keep some people out, because they think other customers will feel more comfortable. Like the clubs in Palm Beach that don't allow Jews to join; or those that still don't allow women, etc. This is/was a big thing with Tiger Woods, but it would be another story to ask me whether I would accept "honorary White" "guest" status at a club that didn't accept Black people --so I could get better lessons. YMMV.

As for CMA in America, I've been around the NYC scene for almost 40 years. I remember when most schools did not have Black students. They didn't accept White students either, btw. But, the schools that did are the ones that anyone talks about. Well, that's even more true of the West Coast. Break out a 30 year old Black Belt magazine, or see the history of Black karate and kempo teachers who learned in Asia (in the 50s) and came back to teach in their communities in the 60s. I have seen far less animus between Chinese and Japanese teachers and Black and Hispanic students in the U.S. than I have in other parts of life.

Anyway, sorry this is long, but I have to give my personal take. In my life, I've seen a Chinese-American guy and a Norwegian-American guy risk their lives to save an African American guy. We were in a crew, and the Black guy could easily have been me. He didn't make it. Later on, I went to Bobby Lee's wedding in Chinatown. I sat at the table with the other guailo, and our crew got a few funny looks. But, that would have happened at the Waldorf cafe. Well, I wanted to say that to explain, partially, why I'm so biased on this issue.

As far as learning from a "racist," I'd have to say that if he'd do it to "them", he'd do it to "me." I *have* to have respect for anyone I learn from. YMMV. I think people have a tendency to become what they admire. Hey, I guess a teacher might have a reason to hate a certain group of people; but I'd like to hear it first. I understand it when a Taiwanese teacher says he "hates" the Communists because they killed his family and stole his country. I understand when teachers from Nanking say they hate the Japanese. And, I wouldn't avoid an Okinawan school because they didn't particularly like Japanese. OTOH, I personally wouldn't want to be around a teacher who says, "I don't like the color of White people;" "They steal;" "They're untrustworthy." Or that "Hispanics carry knives, so we don't want them in our school." These aren't, imho, logical reasons. It's far more likely that teachers like that are really sucking up to the students who they allow, so that they'll feel exclusive. Or that they think that student will be in an environment where he'll feel "comfortable."

Then again, I guess I can't blame anyone for taking advantage of an opportunity. A little thing like racism really doesn't have to get in the way. As I've said, ymmv.

Regards,
Esteban

[count]

Look what this has degenerated into. :rolleyes: Now I must comment. No race has a patent on ignorance. I appreciate that you guys are speaking from your own personal experience, but if you really want to understand what's the other guys motivations, you only have to look in your own hearts. The truth is there.

Just two comments for Esteban. I know your words are well thought out and expressed from your point of view which I respect. But I have to stongly disagree on these points. Racism was neither invented by or benefit to whites. And it is not any worse on the West coast. You can look for arguments to support any comment but there were teachers on the west coast teaching non-Chinese 30 years before Nixon went to China and opened up the Chinese culture for the masses of Americans. Ark Wong to name one was famous for that back in the 40's-50's in Los Angeles, when bigotry was most prevelent, mainly in the South. No countries are more intentionally segregational than Japan.

Anyway, to change the subject back away from racisim, wuwei has hinted that he is training from a good and nice pakua teacher in Montreal. I'd like to know who that is.;)

[Esteban]

Hi Count,

just a few clarifications since you seem to have misread me or I have been unclear. You wrote:

"Racism was neither invented by or benefit to whites."

Depending on what you mean by racism, of course. But, if you look at it politically, economically, socially, and any way that invloves wealth or property, there is no doubt that Whites in America have benefitted the most from "racism." Native Americans didn't; Blacks didn't. But, you shouldn't mistake my saying that as meaning something bad about White people. First of all, there ain't no such thing. And, it's very easy to demonstrate that Whites (or at least those who considered themselves such, and wrote about it, and argued its superiority to non-Whiteness) invented "Race" as a "scientific concept" in the 18th century. (The views of Linnaeus, et al, though he wasn't a "racist," *were* used to validate the perpetual enslavement of Blacks *and* the nation's manifest destiny to "subdue the savages." Anyway, to your point, Whiteness only means something when other people aren't White. As you say, this wasn't the point of this thread, and I wouldn't usually say this on a ma board. But, well, it annoys me when people from America impose their own views of what racism should be on (and in) other cultures.

Anyway, clearly you've misunderstood my points when you say:

"And it is not any worse on the West coast. You can look for arguments to support any comment but there were teachers on the west coast teaching non-Chinese 30 years before Nixon went to China and opened up the Chinese culture for the masses of Americans. Ark Wong to name one was famous for that back in the 40's-50's in Los Angeles, when bigotry was most prevelent, mainly in the South. No countries are more intentionally segregational than Japan."

I think that if you read my post carefully, you'd see that that is exactly what I said. I think your ears just perked up because I deliberately used "White." Good. Same thing happens when I hear people talk about Chinese and Blacks. Read my post again.

Unless I'm really bad at communicating, it suggests that I make no racial distinctions in my personal life. I have been on the West and East coast and know of many Blacks and Whites who have been taught by Asians. I've had Asian and White comrades who'd give up their lives for me without thought. And, fwiw, I don't think you can categorize a racist by his race. If this were a different board, I'd argue this for days. Well, let me say this, I can safely say that a particular skin color is rarely a biological advantage. But, it often makes people feel a lot better about themselves.

Best.
Esteban

[count]

Esteban,

Actually my ears perked up when you mentioned the west coast. :cool: Your points are understood and certainly worthy of discussion on any forum. I just wanted to point out that we all know the truth when we hear it. Everyman has the right to their own feelings. I wonder how this teacher, Yang Hai, would feel about what people are implying about his based on wuwei's comments. In this case though, I was more curious of who wuwei felt was a good, nice, non-bigoted teacher in Montreal.;)

[Esteban]

Hi Count,

yeah, I agree, everyone is entitled to his own feelings. I admit that I have not surfed the guy's site. Unfortunately, if he says what he does, I'm not really interested in listening to him. I never "f" with anybody's rice bowl, but I can't say that I'd be unhappy if he loses visitors to his site as well as students. I won't support him. But, heck, he's ain't in "America" anyway. As for his "character," well, sure, to those he likes and teaches, he is probably a nice guy. Probably takes care of his dogs well, too. OK, just kidding, almost. Yup, it's kinda personal, and I admit my prejudices. Anyway, before I get off this and allow the search for other instructors in Montreal, I gotta say this. If the guy won't teach Blacks because they can't learn, that's one thing. He can easily make the tour to find out. If he thinks that they are more likely to misuse what he teaches, that's another thing. Still stupid, but all it would take is some education. Heck, if he comes from some parts of China, he might just believe the hype --as in Korea and Vietnam, when some people really believed that Blacks had tails. In both cases, we all know better. Now, it's back to your regular bat channel.
Serious cheers,
Esteban

[count]

Are you implying the guy might not be taking care of his dogs. Let's lynch him.:D :D :D

[Charlie_Brown]

I don't want to continue on the subjet of racist because well... it is vast. The point I want to make here is about this teacher Yang Hai. The only point here about him has been made by his website and a report by M. Wuwei.

I think I can bring some light on this because I have been is student for a little more than a year now.

Ok for the weapon it is very simple to understand. It is a new school so the student aren't advanced enough to learn it. It will come don't worry. I saw him doing weapons routine no problem. So he knows. Does he know everything? Nope and he will be the first one to tell you. But for the internal art he know a lot.

Second point: he never oh never said he doesn't want teaching to women and black. We have women in our class. Sorry if you didn't see them when you pass Wuwei. Black? We never refuse them but since it is a new school not many came in the first place.

Anyone interested in coming in the school is welcome. Maybe, Wuwei if you didn't pass already you should come and check it out for yourself. By the way wich school are you going to now?


Bye
Charles

[wuwei]

Master Ming Thong,he is a great master and extremly kind hearted.Very different than Yang Hai.

[Charlie_Brown]

Hi Wuwei,

I would like to know when and where do you train with master Ming Thong.



Thank you for the information!

Charles

[wuwei]

I train with Master ONG Ming Thong privately.He doesn't give other classes for now.

[count]

Is this your teacher? (http://www.ong-kungfu.com/ONG/ong_ming_thong.htm) Maybe I am being prejudice now, but he seems young to be a master. What does he teach you? Have you trained for a long time? I think it's hard for a beginner to take advantage of privates. Not enough bodies in class to bang with.

[wuwei]

he looks young,that's all he does for the time being are privates......good teacher though

[Glen]

This thread doesn't deserve the mileage it's seen.

1. Like Charles, who submitted a message above, I'm also a student of Yang Shrfu's. Unlike the vast majority of "teachers" out there, Yang Hai invites scrutiny into the integrity of his school. He posts a chart of his lineage on the wall -- opposite the front door, for all to see. I've been kicked out of local kwoons & dojo for asking such questions. As a student, a witness to his perfomance, a recipient of his technique, and a martial artist of several disciplines and 20 years, I have no doubt in Yang Hai's ability as a martial artist and credentials as a teacher. Period.

2. Yang Hai has never made such remarks about race or gender. Our classes are populated with a generous number of women, and a wide variety of cultural background. Period. Want a photo?

3. I have spoken to both Shrfu's Yang Hai and Ong Ming Thong, as I know them both personally. They have no idea who this Wuwei might be, and they're a little saddened by all this. (It might interest you to do know, though, they made sure to defend his right to open discussion.) They both suggested Wuwei might be better served investing his energy into training - with anybody.

4. Martial artists are notoriously self-congratulatory for their ethics of peace and harmony. I just read _three pages_ of rumour, conjecture, posturing and condemnation based on some fly ball launched by someone conveniently concealed in shadow. Anonymity is a shabby skirt to hide behind. The consequences are that a perfectly honest and innocent man has been thanked for his trouble with any number of insulting and accusatory emails from people he's never met. And another teacher has been made involved, without the slightest idea why.

Has nobody considered the reasons for this Wuwei's public attack on another man's character? Is he a student at another school, playing a prank? Is he a rival or jealous teacher himself, threatened by a competitor taught traditionally, whose abilities transcend the hobbyist's? Perhaps just a lazy lout, who doesn't like the taste of his own sweat...? If it looks like slander, and sounds like slander....

I hope that next time, before we jump on the opportunity to indulge whatever tangent comes to mind, we might pause to consider we're jumping on the good names of real people. I hope we'll consider the agenda of those eager to malign, and refuse to further it.


With respect, & best wishes
Glen

[count]

Nice of you and Charles to join us. There are many interesting discussions here and some, not so much. But you only have to look at the second post in this thread to see that no one really cares about opinions.

Originally posted by Liu Yun Qaio
You are nothing!?!
People are more interested in what's useful, what's fun, what works, things that inspire. Other than that, the discussions can be pretty incendiary and downright ignorant. Don't give it another thought. A lot of people join forums to correct what people are saying about they're teacher and stay around and contribute valuable information. Hope you do too.