Interesting perspective on the history of Chinese Martial Arts and Choy Lay Fut

[Fu-Pow]

From the the book "Warrior Scholar: The Tao in Everyday Life" by Deng Ming-Dao.


From the Tang Dynasty (A.D. 618-906) there was a constant development of martial arts. Such a plethora of generals,secret societies,gangsters,monks,clan members,and imperial knights exchanged roles and knowledge that it is impossible to trace the history of martial arts in any linear fashion. Allegiances changed frequently; warriors hid their skills in obscurity until time of some duel or uprising; and religious orders of Taoism and Buddhism adopted martial arts for health and self-protection.


In actuality, no set "belongs" to a master. Seeing them that way only compounds the problem once again. The naming of styles (like Chen Style or Wudang) should be regarded only as an indication of origin, not of proprietary rights. When you study with someone, don't make the mistake of thinking that this master teaches the same set as another one so one of them is not original. Professors must use the same textbook and mathematicians may certainly use the same formulas, but the final advantage is in learning from a skillful practitioner.


So two things to take from this.

1) We will never know the true history of Choy Lay Fut or Taiji or Hung Ga or any other kung fu style in any linear fashion. We can only generally know the origin of our art. There is no "pure" or "original" art. What is Choy Lay Fut today probably bears little resemblance to what Choy Lay Fut was several generations ago. Sure there are the basic movements, the ten seeds, but the sets have evolved and changed over the years.

2) The different branches of Choy Lay Fut have different sets and slightly different methods. But which one is the "true" art. Answer: none of them. They all developed and evolved sometimes together sometimes separately sometimes with influence from other kung fu styles. As a student of kung fu the important thing is that your teacher is skilled and experienced, no matter the style or the branch. And also that you have found a style that fits your body type and your temperment. Allowing you to reach its highest levels. Anything else is just words.

[Fu-Pow]

t

[CLFNole]

Fu-Pow:

That all sounds good and makes sense, however the problem that will arise from that is the old:

"my sifu is better than your sifu, so my kung fu must be better".

Things that are really old (i.e. over 500 years or more) might be difficult to trace, however something less than 200 years old like CLF should be able to be traced back with some degree of certainty, however since nothing was written 1st hand from either Chan Hueng or Jeong Yim, nothing WILL EVER be proven 100%.

Not taking either side but much of this history is word of mouth and we all know how stories change after being passed from on to another. I know some will speak of the Chan family manuscript as proof of history, however it was written by someone 2 generations removed from Chan Hueng and thus some inaccurcies are likely and many things could be accounts from stories Chan Yiu Chi had heard about his grandfather, etc...

Thus we will have more posts bickering without end on our history. We all do CLF that should be enough, but apparently it isn't. Lets discuss CLF and leave politics for the polititians, no one seems to care much for promoting CLF from the outside looking in, too many seem to concerned over history and their respective generation number (4th, 5th, 6th, etc....)


Lets promote our art, first and foremost!!!!!
Peace.

[alecM]

CLFNole, I couldn’t agree more, We all do CLF that should be enough.
Fu-Pow, Choi Lee fut is a living martial art and should always be evolving with all practitioners contributing to its growth and continued existence.

[Fu-Pow]

Fu-Pow:

That all sounds good and makes sense, however the problem that will arise from that is the old:

"my sifu is better than your sifu, so my kung fu must be better".

.However, we know this to be a phallacy. Having a capable Sifu only gives you the potential to be excellent. Only your own hard work and effort determines if you will reach your Sifu level of skill or, in some cases, surpass his level of skill.

Things that are really old (i.e. over 500 years or more) might be difficult to trace, however something less than 200 years old like CLF should be able to be traced back with some degree of certainty,

I'll disagree with you on this point. There are two things going against knowledge of the true history of Choy Lay Fut.

1) The circumstances of it's development. Southern Kung Fu was associated with anti-government, secret organizations. The first point I made applies here. Who knows if Chan Heung even really "invented" CLF. Perhaps he inherited the whole system from someone else and simply put his stamp on it. We'll never really know because the originators of kung fu (unless they were imperial soldiers) had to keep their practices secret.

2) The creators and inheritors of CLF kung fu were not part of the aristocracy. Generally speaking exploits of kings, queens, princes and knights are well documented and recorded in detail. But we really know very little about the individual lives of common people unless we find their personal journal or something. So even though the development of CLF seems relatively recent I imagine there is little or no primary source material from which to draw.



however since nothing was written 1st hand from either Chan Hueng or Jeong Yim, nothing WILL EVER be proven 100%.

agree


Not taking either side but much of this history is word of mouth and we all know how stories change after being passed from on to another. I know some will speak of the Chan family manuscript as proof of history, however it was written by someone 2 generations removed from Chan Hueng and thus some inaccurcies are likely and many things could be accounts from stories Chan Yiu Chi had heard about his grandfather, etc...

exactly

Thus we will have more posts bickering without end on our history. We all do CLF that should be enough, but apparently it isn't. Lets discuss CLF and leave politics for the polititians, no one seems to care much for promoting CLF from the outside looking in, too many seem to concerned over history and their respective generation number (4th, 5th, 6th, etc....)

Unfortunately I think this is the case. People are more concerned about what their position is in the "CLF fraternity" then their actual ability as a fighter or a teacher. Pretty soon it will be like any other fraternal organization...like the ELKs club. You just pay your dues and they make you an honorary member.


Lets promote our art, first and foremost!!!!!
Peace


We agree on a lot of the same things. I'd say promote CLF and promote Chinese Martial Arts in general. Learn all you can about several kung fu styles because if you don't who will pass them on? Kung Fu is a dying art because it the circumstances in which it developed no longer exist. I still think that there is value in it for the individual and society at large.

[Yen-Wang-Yeh]

People want and for the most part, need to believe in something. The people that proclaim loudly in their beliefs usually have an agenda to accomplish- no matter the subject.

If someone wants to claim their's is older or more authentic or unearth centuries old dust laden half-truths that can only be believed and rarely or never substantiated then they will in-turn be adjudicated by their contemporaries. But this alone does not prohibit their right to make such assertions.

It is rare to witness a person discuss their belief and walk away infront of their shadow.

Lord Yama King