Why have we yet to see a REAL CMA in the UFC?

[The Willow Sword]

I know that i preach nonviolence at times and that you shouldnt waste your energy going to competitions like these, HOWEVER, we see in so many CMA circles, or at least i have, this propencity to downgrade the MMA fighters and say that they have no real skill or talent. Given that in these competitions there are some things that are not allowed IE: groin strikes, biting ,gouges, things of that nature. But we also see time and time again the MMA folks triumph over these so called CMA practitioners. Why is that? is it because the CMA world is more dominated by hollywood theatrics? and routines that do not serve any purpose other than to look showy? WHy have we yet to see a REAL CMA master in these competitions to turn the cma world in the favor of those who would down it?

Hsing i ,,,choy lay fut,,,hung gar,,,etc seem to be the most fight oriented and agressive of the CMA's. How is it that we do not see these systems displayed in the UFC arena?

MRTWS

[KC Elbows]

It's all about the cash. Jackie Chan can afford to have all of the major ufc competitors shot. That's ring effectiveness.

BTW, thanks for the fresh new topic.:rolleyes: ;) :p :D

[Daredevil]

Because YOU haven't stepped up.

[Stacey]

UFC 6 and 7, alternate Joel Sutton trained in 8 Step Praying Mantis.

[General Kwei]

Most CMA people just dont train properly. MMA is the popular way to go in the sport fighting arenas because it has been shown to work. Those that go into sport fighting have a propensity to train intensely in their chosen arts and are in top condition.
Its like when you see those videos of some grappler kicking the crap out of some silk wearing kung fu guy or gi wearing karate guy. The grappling or MMA guy always looks like he is in great shape, looks mean (has a fighting attitude about him when the time comes) and ready to fight. I have yet to see a video of some guy who is doing a traditional art that has these things.
Of course most of these videos are put out there by mma or grappling types so I imagine if CMA types were putting videos out there you would see something different.

Take this test anytime, walk into a few TMA dojo/kwoons and see who is there, how hard they are traiing and what sort of conditioning they are doing and then go to your local grappling or mma school. In my experience the kwoons tend to be filled with people who are looking for some sort of spiritual experience, They tend to be "softer" then the kind of people you find in an mma school o rgrappling school.
This of course is a generalization, I have run into some pretty hard TMA people and osme pretty soft mma/grappling types. For some reason I think they generally just invite different types of people.

[Le nOObi]

Steve Faulkner was a real wing chun teacher taught by duncan leung who got the crap beaten out of him in the UFC.

[Merryprankster]

Because real CMA's are for killing, not sport. No self respecting martial artist would ever step into the ring to prove a point.

However, challenge matches are ok.

Also ok are:

Empty internet challenges,
The game called "sifu says,"
Another game called Lineage Wars,
Dismissing MMA champions as "low level neandertals."



Seriously though--you don't see them there because they don't care. it's that simple. Most of em just don't care.

That is, of course, because sifu told them not to.

:D

[General Kwei]

I'm with Merryprankster, I think CMA is just too deadly to put in the ring ;)

Lineage wars....hmmmmm coughwingchuncough...

[LEGEND]

Willow Sword...I also wonder where are these guys in San Da and San Shou tourneys( full contact CMA events )??? The truth is what MerryPrankster said...they don't care. They automatically assume that they will eyegouge their way to victory like the karate guys say they will chop/elbow their way to victory! Does that did step up are frown upon as fighting in gladiator type settings! Even in the realm of San Shou. Hell I don't even get it...Yip Man told his students to go out their on rooftop battles to try out your style. So not everyone is caught up in mystics.

[Chang Style Novice]

I'd love to see a SC guy go in and throw down. Even if he lost on the ground, I'll bet it'd be fun to watch the fight go there.

[Royal Dragon]

"Dismissing MMA champions as "low level neandertals." "

Reply]
Low level Neandethals?? You say that like it's a bad thing. Isn't that what we LOVE about them?
:D

[TaoBoy]

Maybe they don't have the same reason for training as the MMA guys...

[Mizong_Kid]

i think it would depend on the mentality......to be truly effective in CMA i think it would require hours of training EVERYDAY.....for years and years.......like many of the genuine traditional masters out there.....

and i defniitely agree with merryprankster.....what you COULD learn in CMA could be very deadly to use even in the mildest of situations

[Dark Knight]

We dont see CMA in UFC because no one is training for it. Like any sport you need to train spacifically for it, boxers train according to who they will fight not just boxing in general, and UFC is no different. If you want to win you must train for it.

You will not see any pure art dominate it, even the BJJ people cross train (MMA) for NHB fighting.

Can someone in CMA win a UFC? Sure, if he trains for it.

[Shadow Dragon]

I think Dark Knight is right.

If you want to enter ANY form of competition you need to train for it.
If not, you might still do ok but your chances of winning (goal of a competition) might be limited.
Especially in one on one competition you need to train for your adversary.

Funnily enough I have read many stories of MA guys of days gone by that when heard that there was a certain MA guy in the vicinity they specialised their training into compensating for his strong and weak points.
(Specific iron skill training, etc.)

In short they would not fight him without being prepared for that specific Opponent.
They kinda knew that your training needs to be tailored to your opponents skill.

Cheers.

[The Willow Sword]

so we see that in the UFC there nothing but grapplers and mma guys which all turn into grapplers in the fight. So i guess if the CMA world that DOES care about stepping up could rent all these vids that are out and actually study the fights and then train to deal with the grappling and the take downs. RIGHT? For every ufc match that i have watched that is all that happens,,they collide and then go to the ground and the one that has the upper hand on the ground wins.
So how does one train against the grappler? distance maybe?
iron palm and bone training to deliver a blow that not only disables the advancing opponent but also breaks something of the opponent as well.
note that right now i am on the surface level of the fighting aspects here, and in combat i DO understand that all spiritual and ethical values go right out the window, with grace, style and technique(it seems in certain instances).
hsing i (for instance) trains to hit a point and hit it hard,,Hard enough to really do damage, and the vital point would be kosher in the ufc match IE: Face(nose) xyphoid process(that dip in the middle of the chest) side of face(that point between ear and jaw).
or even a kick(the section where the internal organs rest) or the point of the hip joint and leg. when struck with a decent amount of force these areas can literally stop you in your tracks, even if you are on an adrenaline rush.
uhh so anyway ,,,the training for the specific opponent ,which, in this case, is the grappler. there is enough tapes out there to study.

MRTWS

[rubthebuddha]

agreed. i'd wager MP would offer that he changes his tactics depending on which tourney he enters.

think of it like a spelling bee. want to get good at that? then i doubt you'll focus on your geography. both are legit fields of study and have their worth, but proficiency in one does not mean proficiency in another.

or better yet, take beauty pageants. some contestants use shagging of judges as a way to earn points. some don't. and some pageants "allow" it, and some don't. so the person most up on the quirks of a given test have an advantage that other contestants don't. the girl who researched and knows that judge smith likes latex will have an advantage over the girl who just thinks a traditional puritan shag will be adequate.

[Shadow Dragon]

Willow Sword.

I see a few possible problems with training for a UFC fight:
1.) Time & money constraints.
You would really need to train either part of full-time towards the fight.
2.) Finding a sparring partner that is willing to let you do your thing while he does his BJJ, MMA or whatever.
Most Schools will want you to fight their way when training/sparring with them.

If those and a few other aspects can be covered than, yes, we could see a CMA guy winning in those comps.

Cheers.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Shadow Dragon
Willow Sword.

I see a few possible problems with training for a UFC fight:
1.) Time & money constraints.
You would really need to train either part of full-time towards the fight.
2.) Finding a sparring partner that is willing to let you do your thing while he does his BJJ, MMA or whatever.
Most Schools will want you to fight their way when training/sparring with them.

If those and a few other aspects can be covered than, yes, we could see a CMA guy winning in those comps.

Cheers.

1. Start small. many cities have local MMA competiitons. You can move up from there. Quentin Jackson went to my high school and started by figting in a few local events. From there he went on to king of the cage and pride.

2. If nobody at your school is interested in sparring in NHB format, then go to a local MMA school if you have one, or a school that does do MMA style sparring. I gurantee they won't care about what style you fight with.

[Shadow Dragon]

Seven.

Personally, I am too old and my Body too broken to go for it.

But if the younger generation wants to go for it, I think we could see some CMA guys doing well in the UFC.

Cheers.

[SevenStar]

the guys at my bjj school and I visit various judo clubs around town to work out, and my judo club allows people to visit if they'd like. Striking schools are more uptight. One of our BJJ guys went to a school because the school said they also taught grappling. The school's owner took it as a challenge, even though my friend was very cordial and friendly.

[Royal Dragon]

If a CMA went to an MMA school to learn how to apply his Kung Fu against the MMA crowd, as soon as he fought, the MMA crowd would be screaming as loud as they could

"Look!!!, another CMA has defected to our side!!!!!" "See, CMA are SOOOOO bad they can only win if they abandon it and learn BJJ/MMA!!"

[SevenStar]

I was in longfist for four years, and I'm doing shuai chiao now - I've had no prob. If you can fight with what you have, they respect it and you. It's not about defecting, but about training hard. Also, if you are fighting MMA, training with them is best as they know the ins and outs of MMA. If they wanted to fight in a CMA tourney, it would server them well to train with CMA.

[sweaty_dog]

I think part of the problem is that it takes a long time for a person to feel they are ready to fight using their CMA. By this time they have a rank and maybe even a school of their own. It takes a lot for a person to risk their reputation and their style's reputation in the ring when they have very little to gain. If they win, well they were better than those "sports" styles anyway, why didn't they win more quickly? If they lose, they could also lose the respect of their students and the reputation of their style.

[Royal Dragon]

But I was JOKEING!!!!!


Haven't you ever been in a silly mood??? :eek:

[Water Dragon]

Oh Wow! Sevenstar just punked Royal Dragon on KFO :eek:

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
so we see that in the UFC there nothing but grapplers and mma guys which all turn into grapplers in the fight. So i guess if the CMA world that DOES care about stepping up could rent all these vids that are out and actually study the fights and then train to deal with the grappling and the take downs. RIGHT? For every ufc match that i have watched that is all that happens,,they collide and then go to the ground and the one that has the upper hand on the ground wins.


That's what often happens if both men are predominantly grapplers (which, as a result of the dominance of grapplers in the early UFCs, is often the case). It's certainly not what always happens. For instance, I was just watching Pride 6 the other night; Igor Vovchanchyn vs. Carlos Baretta was a kickboxer with some ground training vs. a jiujitsu man with some standup training. The entire first round had a total of about 30 seconds on the ground, because Igor was defending takedowns, creating distance and striking repeatedly. Heck, just about the entire first round of Sakuraba vs. Belfort in Pride 5 was on their feet, and they're BOTH grapplers.



So how does one train against the grappler?

By... training against a grappler :D

You don't need to learn a grappling art to compete in a NHB format. But you DO need to train against a grappler, often enough to learn to 1) defend against a takedown, and 2) escape from a bad position on the ground. As long as you can do those two things, you can compete as a striker and have a reasonable chance.

The CMAs (and indeed, most of the strikers) that entered UFC in the early days did badly because they didn't train against grapplers, so they couldn't do either of those things. Therefore, the grapplers, who trained to take people down from a standing position, tossed them around.

And then, when strikers who trained to defend takedowns started showing up, the sport JJ players who only trained takedowns in JJ matches with no striking, started getting pummeled, because they weren't used to having to slip strikes to get in a takedown.

And so the grapplers, in turn, started crosstraining. Like anything, it goes in cycles. Perhaps the next cycle will be San Shou players training to defend a takedown and come in, using the sidekick and the San Shou style throws that no one has been training against to throw around our current crop of dominating fighters. I'd personally love to see Marvin Perry enter Pride or the UFC (err, unless he already has and I missed it, in which case I must look like an idiot :rolleyes:) and bring some new and interesting stuff to the table.



uhh so anyway ,,,the training for the specific opponent ,which, in this case, is the grappler. there is enough tapes out there to study.

Honestly, specific opponent or not, it's my opinion that if you can't defend a takedown or escape from the ground, your training is incomplete, for the arena OR the street... just like my training as a grappler is incomplete if I can't slip/parry/block kicks and punches while I'm closing for a takedown.

[diego]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Oh Wow! Sevenstar just punked Royal Dragon on KFO :eek:

lol; I got your back RD, if you need anybody offed, just cough!!!
& 7* if you wanna see whats the differance between us, we can start at the....:confused: This aint the rap forum, ze'fock!??;)

[LEGEND]

So how does one train against the grappler? distance maybe?
iron palm and bone training to deliver a blow that not only disables the advancing opponent but also breaks something of the opponent as well.
"Would love to see someone stepup and demo. it! Seeing is believing!"


hsing i (for instance) trains to hit a point and hit it hard,,Hard enough to really do damage, and the vital point would be kosher in the ufc match IE: Face(nose) xyphoid process(that dip in the middle of the chest) side of face(that point between ear and jaw).
or even a kick(the section where the internal organs rest) or the point of the hip joint and leg. when struck with a decent amount of force these areas can literally stop you in your tracks, even if you are on an adrenaline rush.
"Would love to see someone stepup and demo. it! Seeing is believing!"


uhh so anyway ,,,the training for the specific opponent ,which, in this case, is the grappler. there is enough tapes out there to study.
"Would love to see someone stepup and demo. it! Seeing is believing!"

[slim]

It's funny that the term CMA often implies no cross training, that CMA means you do only the classical strikes and stepping. I guess that's a "traditional" approach, but at what point do you change from being a CMA practitioner to a MMA practitioner?

I believe that the best fighter will be the one who trains with as many different people as possible and sees as much as possible. So whether you start with BJJ or Kung-fu, you will both have worked with strikers and grapplers. It may be that the guy with BJJ experience prefers to go to the ground and the guy with KF experience prefers to stand but both must be reasonably comfortable in each domain. So can you still call the KF guy a CMA practitioner? I think so.

One big problem is guys going into the ring expecting to win with either a) some flowery style that is usually practiced in a silk outfit only or b) some single magical KO strike without considering that they might miss or be taken down. It is not impossible to defend against the shoot but that doesn't mean that anyone can avoid it 100% of the time.

Finally, the early UFC's saw a lot of "CMA" practitioners that were the once a week students at Dan's McDojo. They thought they were tough CMA guys but didn't realize that people like Gracie, Severn and Taktarov trained specifically and hard for that comp (case in point - remember that Canadian disgrace with his front flip heel kick.....how could he think for 1 second that he would survive after that stunt. Even if it landed he was screwed.)

wow. that turned into a long dissertation and all I meant was to write one paragraph.

Summary - it's ridiculous to think that jumping from cat stance to cat stance with finger jab strikes will win - I don't care what kind of mystical candle-extinguishing chi you have. What is the point in trying to prove that that will work? Why not keep the CMA background and get used to seeing what else is out there?

PS - EVERY club has someone who has grappling experience (ex-wrestler, BJJ .....) sometimes you just have to ask around. Practice with them (especially getting out of tight situations on the ground) and don't tap them on the back of the head as they shoot and say "I got you, so the fight's over" cause 9/10 times that magical KO strike will miss, of the times it hits 9/10 times it will do little to stop the shoot and then he's got time to recuperate as he slowly puts the armlock on.

[Stacey]

Before the rules changed........

Master Sun trained Joel Sutton with one or two techniques more than he saw everybody else doing. He trained Iron Head and did a lot of serious ring specific training.

He took the guy down using a shuai chiao technique that winded the guy and proceded to headbutt him into submission.

He then thought he was god, stopped training, got fat and the rest, as they say is history.

Thats the difference between a fighter and a Sifu. A fighter has a handfull of techniques he trains ad nauseum. A sifu has a much higher repetuior. A Sifu can always be a fighter, but a fighter can't be a Sifu. When a Sifu is a fighter, you have wude or some philosophy guiding the beast, with a fighter, you have depend on luck and hope you don't make a Tyson.


Another problem is that most guys in kung fu, after learning how to handle themselves, have nothing left to prove and continue for the love of it. Get someone thats powerfull, and still has deep insecurity and you've got yourself a fighter.

Don't make a soldier out of a good man. Sun Tzu.

[Merryprankster]

Actually, they don't "turn into grapplers." It's just that staying away from somebody intent on grappling isn't as nice and simple as everybody who knows **** about grappling would like it to be.

[Liokault]

This is a stupid thread......the real question is why we dont see many of the so called MMA guys performing double broad swords on the Wushu circuit......can any one explain that?

Any way all MMA guys are "low level neandertals."

[Liokault]

Or fencing come to that. If there Martial arts are so mixed why dont we see any vale tudo fencers?.....Or kuy do archers that are also BB Bjj guys?

[ewallace]

:rolleyes: Typical

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Liokault
This is a stupid thread......the real question is why we dont see many of the so called MMA guys performing double broad swords on the Wushu circuit......can any one explain that?

Any way all MMA guys are "low level neandertals."


i'm pretty sure that's not the real question.

i've never heard an MMA guy claim that their training makes them capable of wielding two swords. or of performing butterfly kicks. or of any of the other things peculiar to wushu.

in fact, the MMA guys i've known have had a pretty realistic notion of what they are and are not prepared to do. they've been very open about things like 1) not being prepared to defend against a knife or 2) not being prepared for multiple attackers, for example.

they claim to be able to do precisely what you see them do in competition.

here's why your analogy doesn't make much sense: if traditional martial artists claim that their system contains all the things necessary to win in MMA, it's natural that someone say, "cool. when should we expect you then?"

nobody (to my knowledge) from MMA is saying that about wushu. people from traditional arts, however, are saying that about full-contact events such as this.




stuart b.

[Liokault]

I love you Americans and your total lack of any sense of irony.....and I love you most of all all Apoweyn.



My point was that we dont see CMA guys in MMA events for the same reason we dont see MMA guys in wushu or fencing....because they train for sport MMA you will never beat them.

Just like you will not beat a fencer at fencing with a jian under fencing rules.

[ewallace]

:rolleyes: Typical

[patriot]

Why have we yet to see a REAL UFC in the CMA?

There are big Sanda tournaments in China. They have matches with Karate, Muay-Thai fighters from Japan and Thailand. So why aren't there any UFC fighters in China?

[ewallace]

So why aren't there any UFC fighters in China?
MMA guys don't like to test out their skills against resisting opponents. There's no honor in it.

[The Willow Sword]

in Liokaults defense he makes a valid point in that MMA not going to CMA tourneys or CMA schools to train is that MMA IS MIXED MARTIAL ARTS. I would Consider myself a MMA guy partly because i do hsing i pakua and taichi. they are different styles of martial art but in the same genre'.

But i also understand that MMA is loosely termed and that what is seen of MMA is predominantly grappling and ground fighting.

it would be nice to see different artists get together and demonstrate spar and share ideas in the martial art relm WITHOUT all the EGO Sh!t of " mine is better than yours" or"You suck because you dont do what i do" rather how about this approach " thats really neat let me show you what i do" or " this is how we defend against that,,lets see what the counters are and improve on both of our styles"

If there is to be ANY validity that i give to competitions such as UFC or PRIDE or any of those endeavours it would be a positive meeting of the combative arts rather than an exhibition of testosterone and marketing and gambling. And also what i mentioned earlier "mine is better than yours you suck".

MRTWS

[apoweyn]

liokault,


Originally posted by Liokault
I love you Americans and your total lack of any sense of irony.....and I love you most of all all Apoweyn.

1) i'm sure america loves you too.
2) i'm english.


My point was that we dont see CMA guys in MMA events for the same reason we dont see MMA guys in wushu or fencing....because they train for sport MMA you will never beat them.

Just like you will not beat a fencer at fencing with a jian under fencing rules.

and my point is that there's nothing inherent in a format like MMA that precludes the inclusion of a CMA stylist. in stark contrast, there's plenty inherent in much MMA training that precludes their performance with the double sabres, as you mentioned. most notably, the lack of any double sabre training in much MMA. and the MMA competitors i've known are both aware of and okay with this.

i agree with you that a specific event, with specific rules, is trained for in a specific way. the point is that if a given style has 1) sufficient technique and 2) willing proponents, they should be able to, if they so desire compete in MMA. and if an art claims to have viable striking and viable grappling in it, the question becomes, "what would it take to use that in the ring?"

while i'm not too concerned with the answer myself, it is a viable question.


stuart b.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
in Liokaults defense he makes a valid point in that MMA not going to CMA tourneys or CMA schools to train is that MMA IS MIXED MARTIAL ARTS. I would Consider myself a MMA guy partly because i do hsing i pakua and taichi. they are different styles of martial art but in the same genre'.

But i also understand that MMA is loosely termed and that what is seen of MMA is predominantly grappling and ground fighting.

it would be nice to see different artists get together and demonstrate spar and share ideas in the martial art relm WITHOUT all the EGO Sh!t of " mine is better than yours" or"You suck because you dont do what i do" rather how about this approach " thats really neat let me show you what i do" or " this is how we defend against that,,lets see what the counters are and improve on both of our styles"

If there is to be ANY validity that i give to competitions such as UFC or PRIDE or any of those endeavours it would be a positive meeting of the combative arts rather than an exhibition of testosterone and marketing and gambling. And also what i mentioned earlier "mine is better than yours you suck".

MRTWS

1. In person, MMA guys are very down to earth and non ego-ish.
2. you see the same ego trips at point tourneys
3. "in Liokaults defense he makes a valid point in that MMA not going to CMA tourneys or CMA schools to train is that MMA IS MIXED MARTIAL ARTS."

double broadswords and butterfly kicks won't help at all in MMA (and maybe never on the street) However, MMA will help CMA in the street, and will help in sanda and san shou. It's called MMA because it's a mix of styles, but styles that complete them. MMA doesn't need chin na as it has hundreds of locks. It doesn't need striking because it has striking. CMA on the other hand usually lacks groundfighting, so it would benefit them to learn it. They mix to make their system more complete, not just for the sake of mixing.

4. "But i also understand that MMA is loosely termed and that what is seen of MMA is predominantly grappling and ground fighting."

Not since 1995. MMAs train standing just as they train grappling becaus they realize its importance. I wish alot of CMA were as open minded as MMA

[Water Dragon]

LOL@ your new sig

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by patriot
Why have we yet to see a REAL UFC in the CMA?

There are big Sanda tournaments in China. They have matches with Karate, Muay-Thai fighters from Japan and Thailand. So why aren't there any UFC fighters in China?

So, CMA have no problem flying to China to fight full contact, but won't fight an MMA in the same country as they are in? bottom line is that when CMA talks about how inferior MMA is and how they would do technique X to stop a double leg, then use his iron palm to knock him unconscious, why is it that NOBODY will step up to actually do it? When people talk ****, they get called on it. If the person/people can't back it up, they shouldn't talk in the first place.

There have been several kung fu guys that entered the octagon. Sure, they lost, but you know what? MMA have respect for them because they at least tried. That's way more then the people who sit back and say "He wasn't a real CMA and that's why he lost" will EVER do.

[LEGEND]

There are big Sanda tournaments in China. They have matches with Karate, Muay-Thai fighters from Japan and Thailand. So why aren't there any UFC fighters in China?

China pays how much??? How much again??? How much???
You see UFC fighters in Brazil...u see UFC fighters in Japan...u see UFC fighters in USA! Pay them...and u'll see them in CHINA. UFC fighters compete in K-1 tourneys in JAPAN...they have no problems competing in CHINA...however u have to PAY THEM! :)

[sweaty_dog]

"Thats the difference between a fighter and a Sifu. A fighter has a handfull of techniques he trains ad nauseum. A sifu has a much higher repetuior. A Sifu can always be a fighter, but a fighter can't be a Sifu. When a Sifu is a fighter, you have wude or some philosophy guiding the beast, with a fighter, you have depend on luck and hope you don't make a Tyson.


Another problem is that most guys in kung fu, after learning how to handle themselves, have nothing left to prove and continue for the love of it. Get someone thats powerfull, and still has deep insecurity and you've got yourself a fighter. "


You do realise a "sifu" can also be a cab driver or a cook, nothing to do with martial arts? Where does this idea come from that the title "sifu" automatically makes you a nice guy?


The fact is there is no law saying an MMA fight has to be grappling. In fact if nothing happens they will stand the fighters up. If you can defend takedowns you can stay on your feet, it's as simple as that. Yes, you will have to leave your favourite eye ripping attacks at home, but then you don't need them against "neanderthals" do you?

Also, Lioukault, for a BJJ guy my archery is decent (or it used to be). I also have a vague idea of how to swing a sword.

[friday]

hmmm i have to agree with SD on that point. so called 'sifus' have their fair share of bad people and substantial numbers can be great people. i've seen good ones and bad ones in the short time i have been involved in martial arts.

as for CMA in UFC, pride...
does it really matter? if it happens it'd be great to watch but if it doesn't happen i'm not really all that worried by it. the UFC etc is a fight sporting format with rules applied that gives a decent degree of freedom for most martial arts to apply their skills in the arena. its a great venue of fighters to make money and apply their martial arts.

as for why 'real' CMAs haven't been in the UFC etc...there can be a whole stack of reasons for why, why not, when etc. its all personal agendas, speculation etc.

my personal opinion of this whole MMA vs CMA vs TMA, etc is this:

- if u can't fight don't claim that u can. (this being the biggest thing that aggravates MMA people it seems)
- if u claim that u can fight and kick ass then be prepared to be called up to prove it.
- biggest issue with some CMA training nowadays is that they don't apply their material in real time situations for watever reasons. mayb there is a point there that some of us can learn from. there are CMA out there who are for real, train hard etc.
- CMA provides different benefits to different ppl. for me it has all those things but must have fighting applicability to it.

- my opinion on training with MMA. i have absolutely no issues with it. if they are good people to train with and i can learn things even if i have my personal agenda of learning to apply my own stuff to different arts so be it. its great!

:)
friday

[MA fanatic]

I have to say that many UFC champions have been real classical martial artists. BJJ is a TMA. Why shouldn't it be considered as such? It has everything, yes even includes lineage, any other TMA does. Actually, it is as old as, if not older than many TMAs. We also saw UFC guys who trained in JUDO. That's a TMA. We saw fighters from Muay Thai be successfull. That is a TMA (older than many Kung Fu styles). We saw Sambo guys fight and do well (that is a TMA developed in the former Soviet Union...very complete system and not just sport). We saw guys compete in MMA competitions with backgrounds in Kyokushinkai, and Pankration. Those are TMAs. The jury is still out on whether or not Wrestling is a TMA. Some say it is the oldest form of TMA. And, wrestlers have dominated many no rules competitions. We have seen Luta Livre guys compete in an NHB ring. That could be considered a TMA as well (by modern TMA standards...lets keep in mind that many TMAs have been created fairly recently). As for masters who talk bad about UFC fighters claiming that they train to "fight for real" that's a lot of talk and excuses. (We have seen karate, ninjitsu, kung fu...wing chun, tkd, boxers, and kyoshu guys destroyed in the UFC...even more in some other local NHB tournaments. Now they just don't step up because as many excuses as they can make up, deep down there is only one reason. Most will get killed because they're out of shape, can't take a solid hit, will lose on the ground, lose pychologicaly before the fight, and don't have full confidence in the techniques they teach.)

MMA guys have not discovered anything new. They just discovered more effective methods of training. I"m sure any of the UFC champions would be able to handle himself in a street fight much better than the majority of so called TMA/CMA masters. As a matter of fact, in a street fight, I'd rather have Sakuraba next to me, or Igor Vovchanchin, than the Kung Fu instructor who runs a school down the block.
MA fanatic

[cagey_vet]

2 reasons why CMA guys will never be properly represented in
MMA competition on the whole:

1. lack of qualified individuals who actually do nothing but fight.
knowing this is a career shortener, i can see why guys may not
want to pursue this avenue.
look at it this way - fellas like shamrock and ortiz, while great
athletes and fighters in their own right, may not have the
extended career path that most CMA guys would have. will
shamrock even be able to WALK in 15 years let alone do a decent
tai chi set? does he even CARE? i would venture to say that when
i am 80 or 90, i will still be able to perform my hsing-i sets because
i chose not to concentrate solely on fighting or training to fight.
80 or 90... heck, even if -i- dont get there, i know there are plenty
of guys who will, and will still be able to walk and talk and chew
gum at the same time.
but again, what sane CMA guy wants to shorten a career for a
few minutes of glory and an awful lot of risk?
and again, can any MMA guy do the Grand Circulation? do -any-
of them care? my contention is to let them do their thing, while we do ours. why do we seek justification and respect from MMA
people all the time? i know what i can do, they know what they
can do and we are totally different. i may not want to do what
they do and they may not want to do what i can do. fabulous.
thats fine by me.
i am not saying that one should never fight, quite the contrary.
but i certainly dont believe in fighting CMA to the extreme. which brings me to ---

2. no one of material consequence would pay to see a -true-
CMA guy fight a MMA guy (at least in the real world). true martial artists are hard to find among all the CardioKickBox and tae bo enthusiasts, and i think for the most part that the few thousand
-truly- dedicated CMA people in the country would not have the
consensus to make a difference in 'ratings' or be responsible for a dependable 'demographic' in which marketing and fanfare would
be directed towards. ever see anything related on tv or any
other live event WITHOUT advertising or some sponsorship?
true CMA is subtle, refined, and thus for the most part not very
exciting to the uneducated, untrained, UNSOPHISTICATED eye.
yes, i said "few thousand" (more like a few hundred, possibly). seeing the fakes and phonies that we have, i can honestly say there arent many truly dedicated adherents around anymore.
not enough to make a dent or make MMA competitions attractive enough to an advertiser or sponsor.

i dont think real CMA guys are chickensh*t fighters.
its just a different mindset altogether.

MMA guys arent interested in learning complicated hand sets,
or refined biomechanical movement, or esoteric philosophies,
or any of the cool stuff inherent in COMPLETE styles of CMA.
there is no, repeat, -no- complete MMA.
kinda tells you something right there doesnt it.

we are 2 different paradigms.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by cagey_vet
1. lack of qualified individuals who actually do nothing but fight.
knowing this is a career shortener, i can see why guys may not
want to pursue this avenue.
look at it this way - fellas like shamrock and ortiz, while great
athletes and fighters in their own right, may not have the
extended career path that most CMA guys would have. will
shamrock even be able to WALK in 15 years let alone do a decent
tai chi set? does he even CARE? i would venture to say that when
i am 80 or 90, i will still be able to perform my hsing-i sets because
i chose not to concentrate solely on fighting or training to fight.
My guess is that yes, they will. They're not breaking bones, only manipulating them. They will be fine in old age, unless they have some type of trauma from the striking. Knee injuries abound, but that is not limited to MMA

why do we seek justification and respect from MMA
people all the time? i know what i can do, they know what they
can do and we are totally different. i may not want to do what
they do and they may not want to do what i can do. fabulous.
thats fine by me.

The need to prove your style. MMA didn't bother CMA until CMA started talking about how they could defend easily against grappling techniques. So far, it has yet to happen. Perhaps CMA want to finally show that they can use their stuff to defend bjj takedowns.


true CMA is subtle, refined, and thus for the most part not very
exciting to the uneducated, untrained, UNSOPHISTICATED eye.
yes, i said "few thousand" (more like a few hundred, possibly). seeing the fakes and phonies that we have, i can honestly say there arent many truly dedicated adherents around anymore.
not enough to make a dent or make MMA competitions attractive enough to an advertiser or sponsor.

Watch a submission grappling match. it is VERY refined, and boring if you are not a grappling fan, or don't know what's going on.

i dont think real CMA guys are chickensh*t fighters.
its just a different mindset altogether.

MMA guys arent interested in learning complicated hand sets,
or refined biomechanical movement, or esoteric philosophies,
or any of the cool stuff inherent in COMPLETE styles of CMA.
there is no, repeat, -no- complete MMA.
kinda tells you something right there doesnt it.

we are 2 different paradigms.

Dead wrong. grappling is extremely biomechanical and very subtle, as I stated above. when you are dealing with immobilizing a person effectively, locking joints, maneuring in awkward positions, etc. you HAVE to pay close attention to mechanics, there simply is no other way. As for completeness, you don't need philosophy to be complete. MA = MARTIAL art. the original intention of MA was to prepare for combat. archery, weapons, hand to hand, etc. all fall into this category - history and philosophy does not.

[ewallace]

You will never see a REAL CMA in the UFC because once a CMA fights in the UFC, he will no longer be considered REAL by his peers, especially if he loses. :) Catch-22.

[SevenStar]

I was reading an article about Gene Chicoine on the net, and ran across this:

Chicoine likes to use his advanced rank and position to preserve the art exactly as he-and generations of fighters before him-learned it. "The original concept of all martial arts was not a sport," he explains. "They were designed to fight-to defend yourself or to attack. Exercise and the mental aspects came in later. The original concept was strictly for fighting, and to take that away destroys the art."


That would say that even in at least some CMA, history, philosophy and all the cool stuff are not necessary to be a complete martial art.

[Merryprankster]

Cagey_vet has once again demonstrated my little maxim:

If the hubris of MMA is tough guy posturing, the hubris of CMA is baseless, arrogant snobbery.

I LOVE grappling... but I sure can't take much of watching it. Boring as hell for the most part... and I KNOW what's going on.

Finally, it's really simple: Don't write checks you can't cash. You make claims to an MMAer or any other sport artist, you better be prepared to back it up. We don't suffer bull**** gladly. That ain't "tough guy," crap... it's common sense. Would you take it at somebody's word that the money you invest is going to get a 50% return or might you ask for a prospectus?

I don't have a problem with CMA. I have a problem with arrogant *****s who think they're above it all and then talk about how freakin refined everything they do is.

In the words of Q. Rice "Bring it, don't sing it."

Of course, I'm sure I'll be told I'm just jealous and I don't understand.

[Shadow Dragon]

There is only one way to see " real CMA" in the UFC, and that is by digging up old masters, taking their DNA , cloning them and than sending them in.
:D :D

Could Royce choke Chang Sang Feng or Kano sensei??

Cheers.

[SevenStar]

Who is Chang Sang Feng?

[Chang Style Novice]

The legendary inventor of Taijiquan, if indeed he is anybody. Mists of time and all that.

[Shadow Dragon]

Seven.

The alleged founder of Tai Chi Chuan and the internal principles.

But any of the big names will do. :p

Cheers.

[Royal Dragon]

Nope, not the founder of internal principals, Chen Po predates him by a good 200-300 years, or more depending on who's history you believe.

According to Yang Jwing ming's book, 37 and 64 move Taiji Quan existed as far back as the Tang dynasty.

I say it goes back 2700 years to the writting of the I Ching. I figure if the internal arts are all based off that book, and it was written 2700 years ago, then there *Must* have been physical examples of the technology in existance for it to be written down.

Personally, I want to see Royce fight a Roman Gladiator.

[Water Dragon]

MerryPrankster,
I'm afraid you just don't understand, you jealous simpleton :(

[Merryprankster]

:D

[Internal Boxer]

It is not uncommon for Internal Masters to have a wrestling background, take Sun Lu Tang who's system I study he was an experienced wrestler, I too practice submission fighting, I do not see anything wrong with keeping my Internal MA for stand up, and if I get taken to the groung which sometimes they do but sometimes they dont then submission fighting comes into play, I have found that my ground work helps with stand up fighting and stand up helps with ground fighting, Why you ask?? cause you are developing body skill all the time, listening, sensitivity, altering oponents structure, inherent weaknesses in the oponents body and so on.

Many styles of punch and kick fighting are quite light on their feet when sparing, what the submission guys have shown is there is an inherent weakness in this style of fighting, thats why above everything else, root training is a must.

A grood wrestler does not even have to take you to ground, many are trained in skills to close the gap avoid getting hit for the clinch and get a throw or a headlock, and believe me these guys are superb, again strike fighters have nothing in their arsenal to prevent this since the tournies they have entered do not train skills to counteract the grapplers, look what happens in a boxing match a few punches then a clinch, but the ref breaks them up and they begin punching again, I have heard the argument that Traditional Chinese Martial arts a couple of hundred years ago used to train against grapplers all the time as grapplers were considered quite deadley, which enabled the Traditional Martial Artist to counter act the skills they needed to help defeat the grappler. But today very few CMA fighters train against grapplers, which breeds a skill deficiency in the area of dealing with a grappler.

For me we are the Sum of our experiences, CMA practioners should not even voice their opinions on submission fighting without spending at least 6 months under a good tutor, the same applies to the wresters critcising a well rounded CMA practioners who has ability against a grappler. I would like to see much more friendly cross training. And to stop all this bickering bullsh.it between the different fractions.

[SevenStar]

Good post!!!

On a related note, yesterday in BJJ, one of the guys found out I used to do longfist and said he'd love to see my forms sometime as he'd always been interested in kung fu and that he had a blue belt in shotokan. MMA are WAY more open minded than many CMA give them credit for.

[Braden]

"It is not uncommon for Internal Masters to have a wrestling background..."

Don't forget Cheng Ting Hua, who was quite the wrestling afficianado before meeting Dong Hai Chuan! Cheng would have been the main bagua influence on your Sun Lu Tang as well, I believe.

[apoweyn]

okay, here's a question that i hope isn't going to sound biased (because, in truth, i don't really regard myself as a TMA or MMA, but some weird fusion thereof).

what, precisely, would constitute a real CMA practitioner in the UFC?

lineage? use of technique?

there have to be some criteria. and if we're going to be totally honest and analytical about it, it can't come down to simply whether or not the guy won. if he lost, disown him. if he won, you could practically see the glow of TCMA coming off of him as he moved.

know what i mean? if a guy who claimed to be bagua, for example, won a UFC match but did so with a good flurry of punches and a low kick, would he be hailed as evidence of CMA's effectiveness? or would he be lumped with the other UFC competitors who failed to represent true CMA?

there have been quite a few CMA practitioners in the UFC. and i'm wondering, objectively, what is it that marked them as not the real deal?

jason delucia is the usual poster child. i don't have background enough to say whether he's representative or not. but what, in the eyes of the CMA community, marked him as not being legit?

again, i'm not trying to incite anything. but i don't think we can really address this question very honestly without knowing what would constitute an answer.


stuart b.

p.s. to reinforce that i've got no real stake in this personally (beyond intellectual curiosity), i consider myself most closely aligned with the filipino arts (as much as i align myself with any one art). and there have been no FMA guys in the UFC. so i'm certainly not playing that angle.

anyway, what do you think?

[Chang Style Novice]

I think the most appropriate criterion would be if the guy has appeared in at least one movie made by Sammo Hung, Yuen Wo-Ping, Chang Cheh, or Liu Chia Liang. Extra points for a 'tictactoe' grid of incense scars on his forehead or a slow-motion finishing move.

Seriously, I think the problem with your example of a bagua player who wins with a low kick and flurry of punches is that a lot of cma guys train more than one art. Bagua might be his main thing, but perhaps he thought his wing chun was more applicable to this particular opponent.

As a side note, since just about every technique that shows up in mma matches (with the exception of groundgrappling stuff) is found in one cma or another, we might also say that cma already has been proven effective in the ring.

[apoweyn]

LOL. man, seeing a guy with the dots on his skull would be so worth the price of pay-per-view.

yeah, the bagua thing was definitely an imperfect example. but that kind of proves my point. there seems to be no clear notion of what a CMA fighter would look like in MMA. would it look like yuen wo ping were choreographing it? (we should be so lucky.) or would it look like anyone else? and if so, what would be the basis for that person's acceptance or rejection as a real CMA?

you're right, of course. virtually every CMA teaches how to strike with fist and foot. so would it take for something in the octagon to be uniquely representative of CMA?

my personal take is that i'm fine with a CMA fighter that essentially looks like every other fighter. to my mind, that doesn't suggest that he 'abandoned' his CMA in the octagon in favour of something else. it simply means that, via his CMA, he arrived at an effective baseline of skills as applicable to that arena.

so what is it that other people are looking for in an ideal CMA fighter for MMA?

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Of course, I'm sure I'll be told I'm just jealous and I don't understand.

You sir, are just jealous and don't understand. :p



Other than Joel Sutton (the Mantis guy Stacey mentioned) and the Wing Chun guy (Steve Faulkner) who got his butt handed to him in less than 60 seconds, does anyone else know of Kung Fu guys who've participated in NHB?

Also I saw apoweyn mention Jason Delucia. Isn't he Shaolin?

Someone mentioned karate, tae kwon do and ninjutsu being in NHB...does anyone know there names?

Something I think though is that sometimes a lot of older people do CMA over younger people, and older people don't have time to train that intense to do NHB. Take me for example, I am the YOUNGEST in my class, coming in at only 19 years old. The closest to my age would have to be my instructor who is 29. I couldn't do a NHB because I go to school 5 days a week and work 4 or 5 days a week as a waiter, I have little time to do such a thing, not to mention I still suck at CMA and would get creamed :D.

There might be some CMA guys in local NHB events that no one has noticed, and these people really don't want to go big time even if they had the shot. I sure as hell wouldn't, Id probably soil myself being in front of so many people.

[apoweyn]

philbert,

i believe that delucia was billed as five animals kung fu.

off the top of my head:

steve jennum was ninjutsu. i think there may have been another as well, but i'm not sure.

kimo originally billed himself as taekwondo, though you'd never know it. even working on the heavy bag before his match, he didn't look it to me. but whatever.

the infamous fred ettish, i believe was a karateka. there have been others though. there was a japanese fella. and an israeli champ, i think. moti horenstein, if memory serves.

as for other kung fu practitioners, i believe wing chun has produced several fighters. scott something or other was a wing chun guy if memory serves.

i think there were several more who fought as alternates, so i haven't seen their matches.


stuart b.

[SevenStar]

most of the students where I was training longfist were under 28, with the exception of sifu and a couple of others. I would think that most would be younger, at least in an external CMA.

[The Willow Sword]

In a hand to hand combat scenario it would be feasable to assume that it will eventually go to the ground and either a breaking of the neck or choke would end the situation. From what i can gather from talking to Vietnam vets that will talk about thier hand to hand experiences they have always told me that this is what happens and 9 times out of 10 there is a weapon involved,,mainly a knife or a .45. the point i am making is that why i think we have yet to see a REAL CMA in the UFC is simply because CMA,in all accounts deals with a choreographed scenario that is similar to the movie style fighting and the chinese novels that depict these harmonious exchanges of blocks and counters and such. and if one washes out all of that choreography we see a simple exchange of punch and kick and block and counter with a repeat of the same. Japanese karate seems to have simplified this system of fighting. and when we compare to BJJ we simply see a punch or a kick to distract or disable then a take down,,a struggle to get mounted and then a choke. simple and effective,,right? The UFC matches that i have rented have been quite boring for there is really no type of glamour or show. But one can see the apparent simplicity of a fight.
HOWEVER,,many factors are pretty much eliminated due to rules that inhibit the fighter from utilizing his full potential,,,such as with CMA that serve to teach the simplicity of the fight through traditional and spiritual means.
We will probably NEVER see a REAL fight braodcast on any TV or pay per view. we would have to see this either illegally in some underground fight arena (such as what we were sort of exposed to in the movie "Bloodsport" and i use this reference loosely.) To see whether or not BJJ or MMA is compared to traditional CMA or JMA,,we would have to see the no holds barred all out fight for your very life to REALLY determine what is most effective. I do not think that A braodcast fight with rules and regulations will ever really tell us anything other than in the ring BJJ is king,,but that is not to say that BJJ or MMA is king out in the world of the street or in times of War (which we are about to engage in if the repubs and dubya have thier way.

Hey im just writing this junk down as it comes to me,,so if some of it seems redundant or stupid,,,,,i apologize,,,,ive nothing better to do today;)

Peace love and glass coated fists,,,,,,,the willer swad:p

[cagey_vet]

Re: grrr i wrote a freaking BOOK and the browser lost the POST operation, but i digress

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by cagey_vet
why do we seek justification and respect from MMA
people all the time? i know what i can do, they know what they
can do and we are totally different. i may not want to do what
they do and they may not want to do what i can do. fabulous.
thats fine by me.


seven star wrote:

The need to prove your style. MMA didn't bother CMA until CMA started talking about how they could defend easily against grappling techniques. So far, it has yet to happen. Perhaps CMA want to finally show that they can use their stuff to defend bjj takedowns.

to which i respond:

i can defeat grappling techniques.
just not ALL of them by EVERYone EVERY single time.
so now tell me that it has so far yet to happen when i
have done so, keeping in mind the above caveat of my
fallibility. i am not a monster martial artist, but i AM cagey,
and i AM fairly quick. but i can empathize with the rest of
what you imply there.


cagey_vet originally wrote:

MMA guys arent interested in learning complicated hand sets,
or refined biomechanical movement, or esoteric philosophies,
or any of the cool stuff inherent in COMPLETE styles of CMA.
there is no, repeat, -no- complete MMA.
kinda tells you something right there doesnt it.

we are 2 different paradigms.


seven star responded:

Dead wrong. grappling is extremely biomechanical and very subtle, as I stated above. when you are dealing with immobilizing a person effectively, locking joints, maneuring in awkward positions, etc. you HAVE to pay close attention to mechanics, there simply is no other way. As for completeness, you don't need philosophy to be complete. MA = MARTIAL art. the original intention of MA was to prepare for combat. archery, weapons, hand to hand, etc. all fall into this category - history and philosophy does not.

to which i reply:

skillful CMA body mechanics are different than grappling mechanics.
period.
so i wont bother to explain it, if you dont get it already.
and yes, you need (among other things) philosophy to be complete to be considered a 'complete martial art'.
thats how it evolved to what we have today.
the term MA, so adapted, encompasses many areas
of combat and conflict. but by todays standards, if Joe Blow studies a martial art that never tests itself by fighting or contact, is it complete?
there is a tacit understanding at least among advanced knowedgable practitioners of internal kung fu, that without
some sort of philosophical material to use for either inspiration,
direction, motivation or learning the art form, then the art is
not a complete one. there are other factors that if missing will
not complete an art as well, but thats the best way i can explain it.
if, after that, you dont get it, i cant help you further.
we will have to agree to disagree. =)

[cagey_vet]

i dont exhibit CMA snobbery, and i appreciate the sideswipe,
whoever that was. i am just a purist, you might say.
i believe in what i do, and it works for me just fine.

and i know that seven star will have the last word, he ALWAYS
does... and with over 2000 posts by him alone, this is a discussion that just by sheer numbers i will not persuade
anyone of my point, what with my under 40 posts :P

anyways, its futile to discuss anything here without things being blown up out of proportion by trolls and people with nothing better to do :)

you're up 7star...

[SifuAbel]

"the point i am making is that why i think we have yet to see a REAL CMA in the UFC is simply because CMA,in all accounts deals with a choreographed scenario that is similar to the movie style fighting and the chinese novels that depict these harmonious exchanges of blocks and counters and such. "


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[slim]

I posted on this subject back on about page 2. I invite you to take a look and reply.

I'd like to make an addition to my original post in light of the question; what makes a CMA practitioner in the ring and out of the ring?

One thing we have to realize is that fighting is not pretty. I think that a lot of the time we expect to see a clean attack-block-counter combination with a CMA practitioner in the ring. I think some entrants with a CMA background expect to pull that off too. The fact of the matter is that the pretty techniques like that aren't the whole fight, in fact, they are rare in a fight. A practiced and well executed technique often wins the fight/match (either grappling or striking), but it takes a lot of messy looking work to get there, so we see the messy work and say "that's not CMA".

The truth is, there are only so many ways that you can strike, shoot, choke, bar, lock. At the higher levels all MA will start to look similar in action. The training outside of the fight is the difference. I submit that what differentiates CMA from MMA is what is practiced/focused on outside of the ring and has very little to do with the look of the fight/match that the practitioner is in. A corollary to the point is that the well practiced and well executed techniques used by each will reflect what they focus on in training.

slim

PS - this is turning into a great discussion, thanks to all.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by cagey_vet
skillful CMA body mechanics are different than grappling mechanics.
period.
so i wont bother to explain it, if you dont get it already.


And skillfull Tai Chi body mechanics are different than skillfull Bagua body mechanics. They're still both skillful CMA body mechanics.

Similarly, skillfull CMA body mechanics are different than grappling mechanics. They're still both refined biomechanical movement.



and yes, you need (among other things) philosophy to be complete to be considered a 'complete martial art'.

...by you.



there is a tacit understanding at least among advanced knowedgable practitioners of internal kung fu, that without
some sort of philosophical material to use for either inspiration,
direction, motivation or learning the art form, then the art is
not a complete one.

Really? What advanced practitioners? How widespread is that "tacit understanding"? And what makes it any more legitimate as a definition for all martial arts than a Krav Maga instructor telling them that their arts are incomplete because they don't include firearm training?

[MA fanatic]

First of all, this entire debate is pointless, because the winners of UFC and other NHB events have been TMA guys. Like I said earlier, bjj is a TMA. Why shouldnt it be? Other arts which had been successful in NHB are Judo, Sambo, Muay Thai, Luta Livre, Wrestling, and Pankration. In IL, 5 years ago, a Japanese Shidokan master won the No Rules Battle Of The Masters event. As for other traditional arts that lost:
-Ninjitsu fighter from Robert Bussey's Warrior International (I think the guy was actually a ninjitsu instructor) got clubbered by Mourice Smith who basically just used a simple mount and pound.
-Steve Jennum used Ninjitsu to win two UFC fights, but lost to Tank Abbot who had zero martial arts experience.
-Kenpo fighter Keith Hakney was impressive, but armbared by bjj Royce Gracie, and easily finished off by Marco Ruas in their fight. Marco also finished off Steve Jennum in Brazil.
-Faukner and Ziwicky, both Wing Chun stylists lost royally to grapplers. Both couldn't get off a single punch.
-Fred Ettish, 6th degree in Okinawan Kempo Karate, took one hit to the face by a boxer, and collapsed. Hey, at least he had the balls to get into the ring.
-Jason Delucia lost to Royce via armbar in UFC2, but Jason was also a student of Royce, after losing a challenge match to Royce (he actually challenged Royce at Royce's school before, and got trampled...see Gracie In Action tape #2...Delucia takes a beating).
-Mourice Smith, Sabaky challenge winner, lost in 3 minutes to Royce.
-Ron Van Clief (though I have the greatest respect for him), lost to Royce (who took it easy on his older 10th Dan apponent) via choke. Van Clief is the highest ranking TMA guy to ever enter NHB.
-Ichihara, was the Karate guy Royce armbared.
-UFC2 we had a perliminary match where a Penkak Silat guy was finished off by Remko Pardoe (Judo / Jiujitsu).
-Oleg Taktarov neck cranked a Kempo guy in UFC five.
-Severn choked out a Shorin Ryu 3rd Dan and dojo owner in UFC4.
-We also had a TKD fighter fight Paul Varelans in UFC 5, and get KOed. He later came back to get KOed by Tank Abbot.
-Kua Aluah, fighter from Hawaii got KOed by Tank Abbot in UFC5.
-Kua Aluah fighter also took a beating from a much larger Shooto fighter in World Combat Championships.
-A Kyoshu Jitsu pressure poin expert tried to connect with some meridians in UFC against Remko Pardoe (Judo/Jiujitsu). Pardoe finished the Okinwan stylist off in a minute. No problems.
-In UFC8, I believe that was the UFC from Mexico where Don Frye (boxer, wrestler and Judo artist), KOed a Pa Gua Chan (Thomas Ramirez)internal stylist in less than 10 seconds with one punch to the jaw.

You guys, I can go on and on. I'm only hitting the major events here. I can also mention the King Of The Cage events (where classical fighters frequenly enter and get creamed), Big Brawl events from Hawaii, Rings, Pride, and Hook N Shoot. The list can just keep going.
MA fanatic

[Shadow Dragon]

Originally posted by MA fanatic
Like I said earlier, bjj is a CMA. Why shouldnt it be? Other arts which had been successful in NHB are Judo, Sambo, Muay Thai, Luta Livre, Wrestling, and Pankration.

Not trying to be picky, what makes those arts CMA (CHINESE Martial Arts).

BJJ last time I checked can either be Japanese or Brazillian, depending on your viewpoint.
Judo = Japan
Sambo = Russia
Muay Tai = Thailand
Luta Livre = not sure
etc.

In your list you gave there were few Chinese Martial Artists that entered but quiet a few JMA and others.

Peace.

[MA fanatic]

Dragon: I'm sorry. I thought you guys meant Classical Martial ARts. Some guys also write TMA, which I thought stood for Traditional Martial Arts. My argument was that most NHB winners are actually Traditional Martial Artists who cross trained in other Traditional Martial ARts. AS for Chinese martial arts experts, you're right, my list has few.
MA fanatic

[Shadow Dragon]

MA Fanatic.

Not a problem.
Never heard CMA refered as "Classical MA" before, my bad.
Or maybe I mistook it as this forum is mostly chinese MA.

But I agree with your point that most styles used in UFC and similar comps are TMA or based on TMA principles.
And that MMA is simply a new term for cross-training in TMA of varying backgrounds and origin countries.

Now what tdoes MMA stand for again??
Mixed Martial Arts
Multiple Martial Arts
Manly Martial Arts
Money Martial Arts
j/k

Hmmm.

Peace.

[FatherDog]

MMA == My Martial Arts.

[Shadow Dragon]

Originally posted by FatherDog
MMA == My Martial Arts.

I prefer this one over Mixed Martial Arts,a s I think it truer to the essence of ALL Martial Arts pursuits.

Peace.

[omarthefish]

What's with the new acronyms? CMA has meant CHINESE martial arts for as long as I can remember. TMA for TRADITIONAL, not CLASSICAL. The whole side note about all these traditionalists being mixed is a red herring. I don't want to argue semantics. I want to FIGHT !

I know according to a theoretical definition most of us internal chinese stylists are 'mixedmartial artists' but who cares? What use is that terminology. MMA is only usefull as a term if it continues to mean the standard mix of boxing, thai kicks and some form of wrestling oriented style like Judo or greco-roman.

I'm gonna step up and say in all honesty why it gets on my nerves we don't see any TCMA in these NHB bouts:

'face'

Maybe I've jsut been in CHina to long but I feel the Chinese arts have lost a lot of face in these things. It's embarrasing. I avoided the Chinese stuff for the first 4 or 5 years of my MA career because I didn't have any faith in theit practicablity. Now, ten years later I'm still wondering.

I'm wondering where are these guys? I think it is a further embarassment to hear all the excuses and trying to say our methods really arn't that different. There's only one respectable thing to do. Step up and fight. I'm glad Jason Delucia is out there but dissapointed he's practically the only one and he's hardly taken the NHB world by storm.

I for one have made it my goal to participate in NHB events after I get back to America. I want to open a gong-fu school my self and can't respect myself doing it without some real fighting experience. I'm not up to beating on random punks in a bar so . . .

To this end some adjustments need to be made. Actually being in China is very helpfull. Not necessarily because of the supposed superior training but because financially in about 6 months I will be semi retired here and hope to have solved the time constraint issue. (It's not easy)

Full time training folks.

Weight training. Traditionalists seem to have a beef with it but I've yet to see a professional fighter who wasn't as heavy as his frame could comfortably support. I recently saw a picture of one of those old bagua masters who supposedly sent some Russian wrestling champ packing. The guy was big.

All styles look alike fighting? Yeah. To a degree they do. If you saw be applying bagua sparring it wouldn't look much different from boxing. Just heavy on the hooks, VERY active footwork and the rear heal wouldn't be coming off the ground when I punched. Different styles look different only to the degree that Mohamed Ali's and Mike Tyson's styles look different. Someone who's a student of the art can see what they do IS different, even if it's all just 'boxing' which is just English for quanfa.

[MA fanatic]

I think people overthink this MMA thing. MMA is just a sanctioned name for an NHB sport (A name like No Holds Barred had a difficult time being sanctioned and legalized in the United States). Brazilian Vale Tudo competitions have far less rules and protective gear. As for MMA, it is just an event. An event people train for. Most MMA guys have a traditional background. When these same guys decided to compete in an MMA event, they began cross training in ground grappling and full contact standup. The major arts which gave them that were Muay Thai and BJJ. This cross training had been done for centuries by many masters. Be they Chinese Martial Arts (CMA) masters, or Okinawan masters, or masters from Japan, cross training is nothing new. Just that now fighters have more of an avenue of cross training in various arts than masters in the olden days. But, like all athletic events, to succeed, one has to put in 100% of his time into it. That would mean stop practicing forms, no more self defense classes, no more point sparring, no more prearranged fight scenarios. One would just have to spar full contact and grapple with full resisistance. Many CMA masters are just not willing to drop all they are doing to start retraining. Plus, I think fighting in NHB events would mean facing certain truths about the effectiveness of various techniques and fight methods.
MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

Omar: If you're going to fight in MMA, I think you are to be respected. Your post makes much sense. MMA is in fact just an athletic event. But, these guys train all out, full resisitant, all techniques contested, and their conditioning is far superior than most martial arts masters. An average person enters a martial arts school to learn self defense. In American, martial arts have become a form of recreation. Something to do with the family after work. Masters realized that if they don't keep promoting people, people will lose interest in their studio, so masters created promotion tests every several months. Most students don't fail promotion tests, and keep moving on. Eventually these students are blackbelts or instructors or sifus, but are unconditioned mentally and /or physically. Soon these paper sifus open up their own schools, and teach what they know to others. The next generation is even weaker. All these people have to go on are stories of legends which may or may not have existed. MMA is different. A young guy enters a school which produced MMA fighers. His training is grueling. He begins to learn applicable strategies his first day. Within a month, he begins to spar. First light with some pro fighter, then full contact. He learns to grapple on the ground his first week. He grapples with all his techniques being contested by apponent. This is not training for recreation. These guys are not concerned about belts. They are concenred with taking their body to the limmit, conditioning, and winning a fight using strikes, throws, strangulation/choking, and joint manipulation. No belts, promotion tests, family Christmas parties, etc. etc.
MA fanatic
PS As for Jason Delucia, he did lose many times. He really lost royaly to Bas Rutten in Pancrase. But, he is a tough and respected fighter. I think he actually won some fights in NHB and Pancrase in Japan.

[Ryu]

MA Fanatic. The fighter you are referring to as "Maurice Smith" is in actuality Patrick Smith. No relation.

Maurice Smith was a Lion's Den trained kickboxing champ that KOed BJJ stylist Conan Silveira during EFC, and later went on to KO Mark Coleman (Wrestling and reigning UFC champ) in the UFC.

Maurice never fought Royce. At least on TV.

Ryu

[Merryprankster]

cagey_vet,

Sideswipe? I think not. You can be a purist without being a hubristic ass.

You specifically imply that MMA fighters and their associated ilk are unsophisticated rubes by writing that "CMA's are subtle, sophisticated and refined," and therefore not of interest to fans of MMA or the fighters themselves.

What you wrote is thinly veiled contempt for MMA fighters and those who train in MMA--exactly the sort of snobbery I was talking about. If this is the subtlety CMA has taught you, then what you are learning is subtle like a freight train.

Let me tell you what I learned about real artistry through years of being involved in music and cooking, and having friends who dance, and a brother who acted.

Real artistry leaves EVERYBODY who experiences it--regardless of the senses used to appreciate it--breathless. Its genius is that it moves EVERYBODY, not just those who are elitist snots.

I need not be educated to appreciate the Mona Lisa, Pablo Pascal's mournful O Vos Omnes, or the magnificence of a perfectly cooked and seasoned consomme.

[Liokault]

Well i always thought that the Mona Lisa was over rated.

[KC Elbows]

I agree with Merry, and would like to add that TMA aren't in the ufc because ordinary mortals just wouldn't understand. There's just something sublime that occurs every time a kung fu man snaps another human being's bones that is too subtle for your average person. The kung fu man knows that he could kill the entire auditorium full of people, and the tv audience still would not grasp the subtleties, the sheer sublime artfulness of it all. Essentially, mixed martial artists are like the guys wearing fezes and vests who ride around parades on mini bikes, wereas the kung fu fighter is like the guy wearing a fez telling world leaders what to do or else they'll sic the sacred geometry on them. Totally different.

That's what you were trying to say, right merry?:D

[Merryprankster]

Exactly. Except we don't have those little bikes. We ride tricycles.

[Xebsball]

Delucia did some type of kenpo, as some 5 animal dudes had pointed on a thread some time ago.
Luta Livre is from Brazil
The vale tudo in brazil today is not like the old school, it has more rules and equipament. As a matter of fact, vale tudo just got outlawed in some cities.
All the "kung fu" guys ive seen on MMA so far completely sucked, and i mean it. I can find better in my crew, easily.

[Cipher]

I love MA, I love Kung Fu. But as much as I hate to say it I think the problem with a lot (Not all) CMA people is the training habits they form, being narrow minded like not learning a different style or from different people. Like a place I used to work at I knew a few guys that took Kung Fu at another place than I do. They said that people could only go if they were invited and that you the teacher gave you a test to see if you are worthy to train with them (ie. sucker that agrees to not share the secret dragon tenique) one of then even wanted to show me a certain move they learned but said I had to close my eyes so I couldn't see what he was doing, needless to say inside I was LMAO. The guy was actualy a pretty good fighter, he went into a few local NHB events and did good.

As someone else said above, a big part of what I mentioned is also due to a lot of the Kwoons and dojo's being more familiy related than you would see in a lot of MMA places. When I first started MA in TKD that was a great example, we only did light contact point sparring maybe 30 minutes a month:eek:, compared to sparing every time we work out is a big difference, so needless to say I got out of TKD pretty quick, not to say all TKD places are like that but I'm sure you get the drift.

[SevenStar]

"That would mean stop practicing forms, no more self defense classes, no more point sparring, no more prearranged fight scenarios. One would just have to spar full contact and grapple with full resisistance."

Not true. There is a LOT of drilling involved and sparring is not always full contact.too much full contact on a regular basis is hazardous. Pre arranged fight scenarios are there too. They teach you to flow from technique to technique.

if you've got knee on belly going for an armbar, he turns over, control the arm and kimura. He's strong and grabs his wrist to counter, then you bicep crush...etc. learning techniques in a series helps to make you flow better when you roll.

[omarthefish]

The subject has been raised already but I think I underestimated it's importance untill I mentioned this thread to my girlfriend. She's chinese, we're in China.

As a NATION the Chinese are WAY more concerned with practical ways to make a living than we are. While online I forgot how nearly EVERYONE here is going nuts trying to figure out how to get rich. Going in for an NHB contest is something you gotta be pretty **** high up the standard of living scale to even contemplate. I a typical Chinese fighter somehow got permission from the U.S. to enter the country for a fight he's be ecstatic . . . over the chance to improve his english and maybe extend his stay long enough to get into a school here, immigrate, send money back home.

When I bought up the subject of a sanda fighter going abroad to fight in some tournement outside of his official circuit, she burst out laughing.

The other problem is that even the professional wushu schools have divided the curriculum to make traditional arts completely divorced from fighting. It's all very specialized. I think you could see ferocious Chinese NHB fighters but first the govenment would have to decide it was a matter of national face and then tell all the wushu school to open NHB curriculums and then wait for the next crop of 14 year old begginers to mature in another 5 or 6 years.. .

[MA fanatic]

Ryu: Yes I did mean Pat Smith, not Maurice Smith. Acutally, I like Maurice's fighting style.

As for MMA guys being unsophisticated, that is plain funny. I think their knowledge of techniques which actually work is years ahead of an average CMA sifu. I think it's an excuse when I hear that in China, there are masters who would destroy any NHB fighter, but they don't have the money to travel. I am pretty sure that should any CMA master contact a Pride, Rings, King of the Cage, UFC, etc. etc. promoter, he would be flown over to the United States to fight. The problem is, most CMA guys know where they stand. They will simply lose no matter what the rules are. If we ever see CMA stylists compete successfully in MMA events, it will be a guy who had trained in Kung Fu, then cross trained in Muay Thai and grappling. Someone like Kung Le who also grappled for a few years would be very successfull in mma competitions. That will give the CMA community the opportunity to say they have a champion.
MA fanatic

[friday]

MA Fanatic

i think your post lacks a cultural or political understanding of how things work in China and also once again has many comments in it that i've mentioned before involves a lot of own personal opinion, subjectivity and speculation.

discussion of many of the things you raise is futile and also appears one minded. if u want to see the skill level of the fighters in China are. go there for a visit and test skills there. if they really aren't that good i'm sure u can start a new trend there.

I have nothing against MMA etc as my previous posts state. but there does seem an unhealthy obsession with the fact that few CMA appear on events such as UFC, pride, etc and this implies that CMA isn't good. when u say that if a CMA does do well in these events they must've trained in different MMA as well. and then the CMA community will latch onto them calling them a a CMA hero and proof that CMA work. this is really circular reasoning and doesn't look like any outcome will benefit CMA image or change your mind on it.

like yourself, i do not agree with people who say kf is the best and the be all and end all of martial arts. i myself tho' not interested in competing atm is pursuing an active interest in trying to mix it with other styles including BJJ, kf styles, judo, etc. by mix it i mean learning about other styles etc and learning to apply my own stuff against them. u might call me soon a MMA as well depending on how u define it. if u claim to be great with what u know whether its kf or not - be prepared to get tested.
however, i do really dislike the lumping together of good and bad kf ppl in one group and saying that they would all be defeated and stating that this is the reason why they don't appear in western NHB matches.

friday

[friday]

btw my post isn't intended to suggest that u can't state your opinion etc MA fanatic. after all this is why this thread was begun to ask why CMA don't appear in NHB matches that much.

:)
friday

[Lowlynobody]

Please feel free to post links to clips or pics of your fights in UFC, Pride, king of the Cage or any other NHB events you have compeated in.


Lowlynobody.

[jon]

Just a thought...

IF i wanted to start compeating NHB comps.

I dont think i would have enough access to sparring partners of multiple backgrounds at my own school, I would have to look further a field. I try to spar the other guys of my level as reguarly as i can but there is only a few of them. Plus sifu doesnt look on it to kindly when i start challenging every new student to fight within there first months of training. Possibly i could get some sparring practice out of other schools but if i need to compete i have to do this reguarly. Im not sure the other schools will appreciate me rocking up just to fight once a week.
So what do i do? Well i guess i need to join a gym that actualy trains fighters for this style of competion and has lots of other blokes all with similar goals whom i can test my skills with.

I find a good 'MMA' gym which is basicaly simply a place where a bunch of guys get together and spar and try to get in shape for various competions. They fight as a team with several training in each of the various weight catagorys and there is a real sence of team spirit about the place. Feels great, everyone is open minded and learns from each other and all of us are always willing to test out something new.
After spending twelve months with this gym and working out everyday with there guys im finaly be starting to feel ready. I could possibly have a shot at a competion.
Would it be fair on all my new training partners if i listed my school as my previous training hall? Especialy considering i would likely be compeating as part of this particular schools tean. Do you think they would be happy if i just convieniently forgot about them and said i was purely a CMA stylist?

So i compete in a MMA event and i get knocked out in the second round. Its pretty disapointing so i go back to work training. Another six months go's by and im ready again. This time i win in the first round using a submission hold i picked up off one of my training buddys.

Now you tell me, what am i now?
MMA or traditional kung fu man? Or maybe just maybe im just a guy who learns to fight by whatever means are most valuable to the situation at hand.

Its a silly argument, if you want to train for MMA comps you have to get to know the rules and how the competions work and then train accordingly. To do that you really need to join a school where that is there focuss.
You could also say why dont MMA guys do very well in traditional forms competions. Or how many of them can still move with the same energy and intent when there in there later years.
MMA focuss is MMA competion, no point trying to beat them at there own game unless you train that way yourself.
You also do not see many marathon runners winning the five hundred meter sprint - dispite them both being runners.

[omarthefish]

MA Fanatic,

Like Friday said, you seem to lack the cultural and political understanding. It's not just a matter of travel money. Every day at the U.S embassy in Beijing there is a line of about 200-300 chinese waiting for a 1-2 minute interview with a visa officer to get permission to travel to the U.S. Most of them arerich Chinese with contacts abroad, work offers, acceptance letters to American universities etc. Every day about 2 or 3 get aproved and the rest need to wait at least 6 weeks before they can try again. Typically they are required to wait about 6 months for another chance to apply.

This is not the iron or bamboo curtain, this is the American government's requirement that each and every visitor from china must somehow demonstrate they have no intention to emmigrate. Between the application fees the travel to and from Beijing and the cost of their stay in the U.S. only the wealthy chinese can even try and they mostly get turned down by the U.S.

This is because most of them DO wish to emmigrate.

My girlfriend laughed at this topic because while there are many of us western practitioners of CMA who feel gong-fu is losing face in these things, in China:

1. They havn't even heard of the NHB circuit, let alone give a ****.

2. If you tell a chinese martial artist about it, it just pales in comparison to the simple excitement of going abroad. so they still don't care.

I brought up the subject with one of my gong-fu brothers today and he lit up at the thought of my wanting to enter the fight circuit. "And if you could do it IN CHINA you could prove something" he added.

So there is also this ethnocenticism. All of the historical examples of great Chinese fighters defeating champions from other countries involved other countries sending their champions here to prove Chinese MA was worthless. What you do in your own country just doen't mean anything to a typical Chinese gong-fu man.

[MA fanatic]

Jon: That's is exactly what I said in one of my posts. MMA is not an art, it's a competition. Actually, don't think about the UFC when you think MMA. Rent or purchase (they're only 12.99 each) Gladiator Challenge, Hook N Shoot, and/or King of the Kage events. You'll see plenty of fighters from Kung Fu, Karate, Judo, Kempo, etc. etc. Certainly if you want to win in a MMA competition, you have to train in schools which have a curriculum designed for those competitions. I trained for a few years at a gym which taught Muay Thai 6 days a week. On Tue, Thursday and Saturday there was an instructor who taught Shooto and BJJ.
Late night there was a guy coming in to teach a JKD/Kali class 4 times a week (a guy certified by Dan Inosanto) while Muay Thai guys and grapplers had open mat. We had a weight room also for weight and extra cardio. Once again, a person can take the classes, engage in sparring and/or grappling. If you wanted to compete, you had to chose MMA, submission grappling, and/or Muay Thai. ONce you had a tournament in mind that you wanted to enter, one had to put in 6-8 of 6 days a week training. If you miss one of the days during these 8 weeks, you were not allowed to compete using that gym's name. WE had guys cross training from Wing Chun, TKD, Hapkido, etc. etc. Everyone was respected. Certain a person can enter an NHB arena with only Wing Chun for example. But that would be like a ground grappler entering a Tai Chi push hands competition with ever trying pushing hands excersises. He may have great sensitivity and ballance, but he'll still lose because the competition format is different and conditioning required is diferent. That same Push Hands expert would be taken to the ground at will in a wrestling or Judo tournament.

Omega, I myself came from a socialist country. My parents waited for years to leave Russia. I didn't think the same applied to professional athletes who could promote Chinese martial arts. Recently we had Chinese Shaoline Monks (so called Monks...but actually Wu Shu guys) travel the U.S. I also know of Chinese martial artists competing in Japan. I'm sure if there is money in it, many promoters would love to set up an NHB event in China (as long as it could be televised or taped in the United States). A gym I trained in sent fighters to compete under San Shoue rules to China. Out of 7 of our guys, only 2 won their match. I think an NHB event would be facinating and sponsorship would not be hard to find.
MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

Omega: You sound like a tough guy. I am not a CMAist, but you could do Chinese Martial Arts more good if you figure out a way of having some Western NHB talent fight in China. Seems like it is an untapped territory. I'm sure some MMA guys would love to travel to China and fight. They wouldn't even ask for a lot of money to do it. If you yourself are planning on fighting using CMA,
good luck. I'd also rent some Gladiator Challenge videos or order them through Sun Coast Video. You'll see some Chinese martial arts experts fight.
MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

As for CMA only being good in China, that shouldn't be a factor of why CMA fighters were not successful in MMA. To say that CMA's effectiveness can only be proven if you fight the Chinese, is like saying to truly say that you defeated a Sambo fighter, you have to travel to Russia. Or, if you truelly want to say that you defeated a Thai boxer, one has to do so in Thailand. There are plenty of tough CMA guys here opening schools and running businesses. There are also Chinese CMA masters here who claim to have had numerous victories in brutal fights in China. True, these masters may be too old to fight, but, Helio Gracie doesn't fight himself either. Carl Gotch doesn't grapple anymore in the ring.
MA fanatic

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by omarthefish

As a NATION the Chinese are WAY more concerned with practical ways to make a living than we are. While online I forgot how nearly EVERYONE here is going nuts trying to figure out how to get rich. Going in for an NHB contest is something you gotta be pretty **** high up the standard of living scale to even contemplate.

That's what sponsorships are for. You don't need big money to compete in local MMA. you do that to get your start and to get noticed. then you move on to bigger things. A few of the guys in my club fight, and none are rich. One of them fought in the last Revolution championship in vegas, and Revolution paid his way there, so he really didn't have to spend much at all. If you do well at the smaller, yet still big competitions, like revolution, people will notice you. Our guy was actually invited to Pride. there was some complication with his opponent though, who wouldn't sign the contract.

The other problem is that even the professional wushu schools have divided the curriculum to make traditional arts completely divorced from fighting. It's all very specialized. I think you could see ferocious Chinese NHB fighters but first the govenment would have to decide it was a matter of national face and then tell all the wushu school to open NHB curriculums and then wait for the next crop of 14 year old begginers to mature in another 5 or 6 years.. .

Who currently fights in sanda? If they are already fighters, couldn't they fight nhb? you don't need to wait for beginners to mature - can they not take the willing adults? particularly the sanda guys.

[Martial Joe]

4 main reasons i just thought of.

no specific order...

Dont cross train alot.
Dont train hard enough period.
Dont care.
They are at a watered down school.

[SevenStar]

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/sherdogsfightpics.cfm?matchId=7908

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/sherdogsfightpics.cfm?matchId=7905

here's two of the guys I was talking about. This is from the RFC in vegas, back in july. one of them won and one lost.

Another one of our guys is in Denmark right now. Royce sent him there to teach bjj to a muay thai camp there. While he was there, he decided he'd fight in a local match.

http://www.vikingfight.dk/page1.asp

he won his fight too.

See, you don't have to be rich. Just train hard. We all train at least four days a week for 2.5 - 3 hours, not including weight training. we all do that at separate times. Next enter local stuff. mix, mingle and get noticed. try to get sponsors. you can do it, if you really have the desire.

[Shooter]

There's a Tai Chi school in Canada, Northern Lights Tai Chi, and the instructor is 9-8 in MMA. Lots of his students have competed in MMA. They've done OK in grappling tournaments too.

To my knowledge, there are only 2 people who've posted on this thread who've actually done MMA. Everyone else is full of $hit. Walk on your own d@mn legs instead of nut-riding your heroes.

It doesn't take a lot of balls to get in the ring once. It takes major balls to do it again though.

People who diss fighters no matter the "style"...pu$$ies... :p

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Shooter

It doesn't take a lot of balls to get in the ring once. It takes major balls to do it again though.



Especially if you lost the first one

[[Censored]]

See, you don't have to be rich. Just train hard. We all train at least four days a week for 2.5 - 3 hours, not including weight training. we all do that at separate times.

Time is money dude. Can poor people can train for hours every other day, in between workouts at the gym?

Then again, if you take a trip out to a poor country with $10,000 in your hand, you might just find a few talented, "hungry fighters". Literally. :)

[taijiquan_student]

I'm not saying that everyone should go and do this, but at one point in his life my teacher lived on $7000 a year, and just practiced taiji all day, everyday. It just shows you it's possible if you want it enough (and if you don't have a girlfriend or family!).

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by [Censored]
See, you don't have to be rich. Just train hard. We all train at least four days a week for 2.5 - 3 hours, not including weight training. we all do that at separate times.

Time is money dude. Can poor people can train for hours every other day, in between workouts at the gym?

Then again, if you take a trip out to a poor country with $10,000 in your hand, you might just find a few talented, "hungry fighters". Literally. :)

yeah, guys that are just "starving" to make it, huh?

seriously though, many people have time on their hands and don't manage it properly. I am hardly rich, and still follow the schedule above PLUS lift weights and train in judo. AND I have a wife and kid. you're right, time is money, but how much money are people making while they are sitting at home watching tv?

[YungChun]

So how does one train against the grappler? distance maybe?
iron palm and bone training to deliver a blow that not only disables the advancing opponent but also breaks something of the opponent as well.
note that right now i am on the surface level of the fighting aspects here, and in combat i DO understand that all spiritual and ethical values go right out the window, with grace, style and technique(it seems in certain instances).


Just my opinion here but the key for, I think southern type system is at the core of what CMA are all about - that is: Continuous attack and energy issuing - however your style does that. Chinese systems, in my experience offer numerous ways to create a constant attack, normally in a very fluid manner. Wing Chun uses chain punching, for example, but I have seen other arts using other fluid ways to create a very fast and fluid attack. In a continuous attack the striking is uninterrupted and very close together like 4 - 8 hits per second with no lag. This gives an advantage to an attacker because it helps him to issue energy and follow the opponent as he moves - even if he moves under you.

Continuous striking also aids energy issuing, which I believe is also part of every CMA. The energy issuing aspect means projecting your energy into the opponent in order to unbalance him - but strikes can do this too when issued into the Centerline - also the center of gravity. IMO it's critical to control the balance of the opponent at all times, especially if he is a grappler. There are numerous other ways CMA use their bodies to control balance and break down the opponent’s ability to defend himself that are very specific to each art in how it is applied. It’s clear some of these methods would work in events like the UFC because I’ve seen fighter’s use similar tactics even by accident and interrupt attacks even from people like Royce Gracie.

Some of these CMA methods are often brutal and illegal for use in MMA but many CMA methods can still be used. There would be no doubt if a fighter in a MMA contest was using Wing Chun to Wing Chun people - the way he moved and used his weapons would tell the story win or loose. I would like to see just one guy using his CMA methods/concepts in the ring win or loose.

Like was said before most guys who want to fight in MMA events are going to see what those guys use and then train that IE western/thai/boxing and BJJ/Wrestling - that makes the choice of what to study simple. Just about 100% of guys who want to do boxing want to fight. This is not so for many CMA. The majority of CMA want to have fun studying their arts and that's great. A large percent of CMA want to be able to fight but don't really want to fight and a few CMA want to be able to fight so bad that they really train for it - but a much smaller percent than will be found among Boxers, who are always boxing or MMA who are doing all of the above plus BJJ and wrestling. Bottom line most CMA have no desire to fight, on the street or in the ring.

I have asked a few of my seniors that have impressed the crap out of me why they don't go into the UFC or NHB and they say things like, "I'm too old for that," or, "I could get hurt and I have a family," or "Why would I want to do that?" etc. I am always looking for people who want to compete but find few.

I have to wonder how easy it would be for even a good CMA to get into the UFC or similar event. Would they let him in or would they just laugh at him and say go do some MMA and come back in a few years? I do think it's is possible for a CMA do dominate the UFC if there are people who want to fight and who are good. Perhaps one day we will see CMA dominating the UFC and that this whole thing just needs time to evolve to that level.

[The Willow Sword]

just what IS an illegal tactic in the UFC?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
just what IS an illegal tactic in the UFC?

Headbutting, eye gouging, fish hooking, kicking the head of a downed opponent, groin shots.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
just what IS an illegal tactic in the UFC?

No rules fighting? There's lots of rules.

Official UFC rules:

1. All participants must wear gloves
Designed for the safety of the striker

2. Three distinct weight classes 149 lbs. and under, 150-199 lbs., and 200 lbs. and over

3. No biting

4. No Eye Gouging

5. No kicking a downed opponent

6. No small joint manipulations such as fingers and toes

7. No fishhooking: Putting one's finger in the opponent's mouth

8. No hairpulling

9. No thoat strikes

10. No groin strikes

11. No elbows to the back of the head

12. No headbutting


Ways to End a Fight

Submission
The participant taps the mat with his hand or foot, signalling his surrender. This is caused by the participant to find himself in a situation that he cannot get out of without harming himself. This includes chokes, holds, or to be in a situation where he is defenseless. Nearly 80% of matches end with a submission.

The Corner throws in the towel

The participants corner men determine that their fighter cannot continue due to injury or fatigue. Very similiar to the 'towel' rule in boxing.

Referee stoppage
Perhaps the most important, this is when the referee intervenes to stop the fight because he feels that one opponent is defenseless with no chances of victory. Big John McCarthy has been the referee for the UFC since its conception. His main concern is the fighter's safety.

By Knockout

End of regulation time
Though it differs between tournaments, it is usually somewhere around 15 minutes

[Former castleva]

Why have we yet to see CMA at KFO?

[sweaty_dog]

"I have to wonder how easy it would be for even a good CMA to get into the UFC or similar event. Would they let him in or would they just laugh at him and say go do some MMA and come back in a few years?"

UFC, hard. They would laugh at anyone who didn't have an established record now. There are a lot of other shows that will take pretty much anyone though.


"I do think it's is possible for a CMA do dominate the UFC if there are people who want to fight and who are good."

No doubt.

"Perhaps one day we will see CMA dominating the UFC and that this whole thing just needs time to evolve to that level."

Hmm. If there are people out there who can easily defeat UFC fighters, they would in my opinion do their style and the rest of the world a big favour by giving us a look at what we are missing out on. I know internal people like Wang Shu Jin fought challenge matches, it can't be that much of a stretch for others to fight in MMA.
I would like to see a few old style UFCs with traditional stylists fighting each other without the modern rules. I know a lot of people aren't interested in competition, but there must be a few who would like to fight straight "style vs style" without going against cross trained specific MMA competitors. Imagine "wing chun vs ving tsun", the five best fighters from each style, no gloves, no time limit, no rounds. That would give the forum something to talk about.

[old jong]

Chuck Liddel is doing very well in the UFC and Pride with his standing up style and an effective sprawl. Any Kung Fu stylist could do as well if he trained as hard as chuck,had a good trainer as Chuck's and had as natural talent and the will to do it.

Training for art,well being and self-defense and training for pro-fighting are two different animals.The guy who has to go to work for a living the next day can't do that.

[LEGEND]

Martial Joe just summarize everythang in a nutshell!

[The Willow Sword]

list. well aside from fish hooking(which i have never seen ANY CMA practice) i see at least a few reasons why CMA practitioners do not get into these competitions.

[LEGEND]

Willow Sword...but in Brazil...the only rule is no eye gouging and biting. So the US and Japan have a watered down version. The fact remains...there have been that have come and competed and the rest just stay silent.

[Merryprankster]

Sigh...

Once again... don't like UFC rules? Look at PRIDE rules or go to Brazil and fight vale tudo there. Quite frankly PRIDE would probably JUMP at the chance to have a CMA "Master," in the ring. Revenue is good.

Bottom line--if you want it bad enough, you'll do it. Most CMA guys just don't care.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Most CMA guys just don't care.

maybe they do care.....

about staying in one piece.

[LEGEND]

LOL...oh no...the latest new excuse is Fear of Injuries!!!

[David Jamieson]

I believe your right Merry.

Your typical Kung Fu "master" could care less about fighting in these contests on TV.

That sort of thing is for the guys who wanna make a name for themselves, prove themselves, etc etc. It's a competitive sport. Often times, systems of traditional kungfu are not taught as competitive and do not over emphasize the whole contest thing.

Now, lately this isn't really true and you get a lot of clubs that go to tournaments, wear the race car patches all over their kung fu gis :rolleyes: keep a wall o' trophies, etc etc. These guys aren't really doing Kung Fu though in the "traditional" sense. They're doing their school thang.

Kung Fu's competitive side is wu shu, forms competition, san shou, and all that. Not really the same animal as the mma sport fighting stuff.

You don't see kungfu guys doing Muay Thai, Sumo or water polo either.

Your typical ufc type competition just isn't regarded as kungfu, it's mma or whatever else it's called.

You won't see kungfu masters boxing tyson or lewis too soon either, or wrestling in the wwe, or...well you get the idea.

anyway, it doesn't matter, it's moot. I can't believe this stuff is still such a hot topic here. It's been done to death here.


peace

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by LEGEND
Willow Sword...but in Brazil...the only rule is no eye gouging and biting.

Nope, WRONG

[Braden]

http://www.geocities.com/rammstein823/llama.html

"You don't see kungfu guys doing Muay Thai"

Actually, a northern preying mantis guy took home the light heavyweight belt at a recent national-level Muay Thai tourney up here in the frigid north.

And didn't one of Su Yu Chang's northern preying mantis guys actually go right to Thailand and take national-level heavyweight Muay Thai belts there several years in a row?

BTW, weren't free online mpegs of Tim Cartmell's people competing in MMA posted to this very forum? WTF are you people going on about?

Note: boring post framed in amusing distractors

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Energy cannot be created or destroyed... well... except when it's created or destroyed.
2. Entropy always increases... unless the universe is contracting... which it is.
3. Matter will be absolute zero... when all of it is perfectly distributed... which it will never be... and space is infinite... which it's not.

God ******. If anyone finds this **** out, they'll make us start over.

[Archangel]

Here's the rules from the IVC site.

http://www.valetudo.com.br/rulesengl.htm

I think they are more than fair

[Xebsball]

Archangel,

Do this:
"No biting
No eye gouging
No fishing hook
No holding the ropes
No kicking if wearing shoes
No placing hands or feet inside the opponent's trunks
The referee can restart the fight"

Equal this?
"No biting
No eye gouging"

Simple logics:
NO!!! WRONG!!!

And dont blame it on your educational system as an excuse!!
If they are fair or not is not the issue, the issue is weather the rules are just as Legend stated or not.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
You don't see kungfu guys doing Muay Thai

Many Sanshou fighters have fought in a muay thai format for instance Marvin Perry and Richard Acosta

[LEGEND]

What the hell??? What happen to the WVC??? Did they fold???

[Dedication]

You dont see many, because the majority dont train anywhere near as hard or learn to take a punch. Full contact sparring and good conditioning could turn a kung fu guy into a good fighter as long as he dont rely on stupid techniques.

Muay Thai goes GREAT with kung fu (northern styles), i plan to join the Pittsburgh Muay Thai academy along with my Eagle Claw training.

Cross training is always neccessary, why limit yourself to one thing. No style is perfect, keep an open mind and see what works from anything and try to use it yourself.

[SifuAbel]

"You dont see many, because the majority dont train anywhere near as hard or learn to take a punch. Full contact sparring and good conditioning could turn a kung fu guy into a good fighter as long as he dont rely on stupid techniques."



Being that I've never met, and probably will never meet, the majority; I can't speak for them. But, This however was not my experience in kung fu. We trained in varying and progressively harder levels of contact and body conditioning. The kung fu I did contained all the same basics of other styles and then some. I don't recall haveing trained in any stupid techniques or techniques that don't have a value of some kind.

[fa_jing]

Given equal chance to study each other on tape, Bruce would kick Royce in the head and put him down fast.

[SifuAbel]

I wasn't going to comment on this thread because I beleive we should leave this Dead horse to rest in peace. But since my curiosity got me to read this whole thing i'll just throw in my $1.25(2 cents plus inflation).

The number 1, and really the only, reason you don't see the thousands of CMA people in the US flood the NHB scene is purely because of venue loyalty. Most of the CMA school are straight away hearded in San shou and San da. As it is it's the same with the NHB crowd. They train in the organizations that lead to the said venue. We haven't seen much of the style vs style events since UFC 4 and that was 36 UFC's ago.

Rules aren't the issue. Technique is not the issue. Steroid use May be an issue. Nobody is invincible. Nobody wins all the time. There are no legions of undefeated champions. You win some, you lose some. For every winner in UFC there are hundreds of losers that train the same stuff. That being true, its kind of irrelevant to speak about winners.

[fa_jing]

Actually, the REAL reason the we haven't seen a real CMA in the UFC is that Chinese martial arts has practically cornered the market on the health/new age hippy/intellectual crowd. This in addition to a few serious martial artists and people interested in SD. If they lowered themselves to concentrate on common training of sportfighters, they would lose their mystical reputation in some of these people's eyes, and thus their foothold on the market. I don't mean this for every teacher, it is a generalization.
OTOH, if they did not have this market, they would certainly concentrate on producing or assisting to train a successful sport fighter, in the interest of making a name for their art.

[SifuAbel]

the "mystical hippy crowd" is mostly doing internal MA for health. The external schools are not into that .

[Joe Mantis]

Has any CMA practitioner won in MMA using his particular style's techniques? Witlhout resorting to Muay Thai style fighting?
It seems that everyone trains in Muay Thai for their "stand up" and grappling.
There are so many "striking arts" out there, why aren't they successfully striking their way to victory. If kung fu has been superior to Muay Thai and other martial arts, why don't we see it in MMA competition?

Here's my theory:

1. No training in full contact using their techniques.

Most CMAers cannot even get past a straight punch coming full force. By the way they have to do it using the tech of their style.

I'll finish my thoughts later....

Sifu Abel you are on to something.

[Joe Mantis]

Hey ya'll,

Sorry but I didn't realize there is 10 pages on this thread. I didn't read them all yet. Sorry if I spoke to soon

[Antares33]

All you've got to do is have a close look at the Harm Reduction (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18330) thread to get a good idea of why CMA isn't so big in a NHB format. The honest answer is that we don't train hard enough in down and ground to do well, and if you do, you're not a CMA fighter, but a MMA fighter.

I see no reason why a person with a Kung Fu/ground fighting background couldn't do well though.

[SevenStar]

No offense to you, as you aren't the first person to say it, but this statement just irks the bejesus outta me:

"Has any CMA practitioner won in MMA using his particular style's techniques? Witlhout resorting to Muay Thai style fighting?"

You can't "resort" to something you don't train in. If you are only throwing kicks and punches and not using your CMA, you're not resorting to muay thai by any means - you are merely fighting the way your body feels most comfortable. you know punches and you know kicks, so you use them. muay thai has techniques that reflect the taiji concept of yielding - does that mean that MT guys are resorting to taiji when they use them? not at all.

I do agree with your theory, and also agree that a CMA who's also versed in grappling can potentially do well. Matter of factly, there is a poster here who trains taiji guys to compete in his area, and from what I hear, they do pretty well.

You can't say MOST CMA can't defend a straight punch - that's way too broad a generalization.

[Joe Mantis]

Seven Star

Good points.

My concern is with the Striking arts of CMA. Obviously Mantis style differs techs than say White Crane or Shaolin etc. Each style has their particular "go to" techniques. I just don't see those being used in this type of competition.

Even in san shou bouts techniques are reduced to western style boxing for hand and some leg work.
Having competed san shou, I found it difficult to employ my style's techniques.

Another way to look at it is: someone doing a form of their style is great but I don't see those moves used in MMA or at least San shou bouts.
That is about as real as it gets when thinking of someone trying to punch you with everything they have.

I'll write more later.

[Stacey]

good point 7 star.

It also ****es me off that grappling is assumed to not exist in CMA. Well it does in 8 step. Albeit not the same as bjj.

To my knowlege there have been 3 NHB matches won by 8 step students. Instructor students are encouraged to do it as a learning tool. 2 local midwest tourneys and UFC 6 and 7 that Joel won as an alternate.
He trained Iron Head from Grandmaster Sun. He used a chest contact and hooked his leg. Our first throw and headbutted the guy until he gave up. He was on a traditional diet, training traditionally and fought traditionally. Meditation and chi kung was a big part of his training as well as iron palm and basic low mantis. He later stopped training with Master Sun and started losing.


The local matches were against "professional" mma guys and Bjj guys and they weren't invincible.

If your kung fu style doens't teach you how to fight so that you can step into the ring with a bjj guy of the same time, then your in the wrong style. stop complaining about rules and learn something effective.


Muay Thai's techniques all exist within 8 step. So resorting to muay thai is resorting to a strong foundation in the basics, which any fighter should have. If I do a jumping knee, Itswhat I learned in kung fu. I don't care what YOU think it is. I've never trained in muay thai or bjj, yet people think I've done both. Nope, just a traditional complete system that wasn't *******ized or dilluted.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by Joe Mantis

My concern is with the Striking arts of CMA. Obviously Mantis style differs techs than say White Crane or Shaolin etc. Each style has their particular "go to" techniques. I just don't see those being used in this type of competition.....Having competed san shou, I found it difficult to employ my style's techniques.


Hi, Joe

Could you explain more about why you found it difficult to employ your style's techniques? How long did you study? Under whom? Did you attempt to do any techniques? Do you feel you understood how they should be used? Have you ever used them with sucsess in the past?

Any info would be interesting.

YC

[SevenStar]

Stacey,

Muay thai's techniques, or techniques that RESEMBLE them? many styles have a revers punch - that doesn't mean they have karate techniques in their style, only that they have a similar tech in their style. There's more to a style than the look of the tech - it's also the mechanics behind it and how it's used.

P.S. - go post about 8 step grappling on my ultimate grappling thread - it would be perfect there.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Joe Mantis
My concern is with the Striking arts of CMA. Obviously Mantis style differs techs than say White Crane or Shaolin etc. Each style has their particular "go to" techniques. I just don't see those being used in this type of competition.

Even in san shou bouts techniques are reduced to western style boxing for hand and some leg work.
Having competed san shou, I found it difficult to employ my style's techniques.

Another way to look at it is: someone doing a form of their style is great but I don't see those moves used in MMA or at least San shou bouts.


I think that's where principle comes in. what's the principle behind the technique you are using? you can apply the principle to a different strike or grab. You have to really be able to apply the principles to be able to do it though. I don't think any CMA who trained in styles that utilize different hand techs have been in MMA, other than the mantis guy. The rest has been wing chun and taiji. I didn't see the mantis dude, so I dunno what he did.

The taiji guys must be applying the principles though, if they are having the success that I hear they are. Also, William CC Chen's son was doing some good things on the san shou circuit, and he trains taiji also. I think it can be done, but you have to really understand how to apply your styles principles, and work applying them within the rules of nhb.

[Joe Mantis]

YC

It was my first and so far only fight at a local tournament. Nothing big. However the experience really helped me in my personal journey in CMA. I went into this fight with one goal:
use "xyz" technique.
I didn't train "religiously" for this fight first of all.
I found it difficult to employ the technique because
1. My conditioning sucked and I was tired as hell.
2. I didn't train enough on that particular tech so that it was a natural response.
3. LAck of experience - the guy I fought had 3-4 fights under his belt. It showed.
In review the tape of my fight I found that I only did the tech ONE time.
I did find it effective though. I guess that in the heat of the moment when someone is trying to knock the crap out of me, I wasn't completely focused on applying a specific tech.

Yes - I did understand how the tech was to be used. I just need to drill it more in a "sparring" situation.

I didn't study very long, and as for my teacher - I'd rather not shame his name at this point. Wait til I'm winning. :D

[Royal Dragon]

"muay thai has techniques that reflect the taiji concept of yielding - does that mean that MT guys are resorting to taiji when they use them?"

Reply]
Da.mm right it does!!!!!!!

[Merryprankster]

RD,

You're kidding, right?

[Machimurasan]

The truth is that there have been few true martial artists period in any of the "MMAs" format. Mostly wrestlers, MAs journeymen and sport-billy types. The UFC was about GJJs effectiveness as a MA, and with that exception 98% are non martial arts fighters, kickboxing grapplers not tied to any true martial family or cultural tradition, but to the trappings of materialism.

Reality is very subjective. Often real has nothing to do with some peoples concept of reality. The premise of the NHB format is counter to true WAR arts training. If you are hurt during a mock representation of self-preservation, how can you be an effective "martician" when the s hit hits the fan, hahaha! Fighting for the sake of glory, validation, money or to satisfy some neurotic or psychotic impulse is what MAs training is NOT about!!!

If you do a true MA then you'll understand this. If not then I can't convey something to you that doesn't exist in your world. Dowhatchalike!!!

[Liokault]

"muay thai has techniques that reflect the taiji concept of yielding - does that mean that MT guys are resorting to taiji when they use them?"


Not sure about the yeilding but there are some similarities in the clinch work.

[SevenStar]

in mt, there is a tech where when someone kicks at you, you block the kick with your shin, but you pivot away from the blow. you also may push at him - which may jolt his balance some. you are using some of the energy from the kick to off balance him with your push. It's 5:30 am, I haven't had much sleep and I have to get up for work soon, so that's a sucky explanation of the technique, but we've talked about the tech on KFO before. you may be able to search for it.


What similarities are there in the clinching?

[pitbull]

gloves hamper dexterity....

[SevenStar]

if you can't use your hands in an open palm glove....

[Viper555]

I've never really gotten into one of these arguments here but since i'm bored ill go ahead and give you my 2 cent.

I think the reason that we never see any CMA people in the UFC is because hardly any of them train correctly. They always say crap like "I'm in it for the spiritual benefits, the fighting is just a bonus". All that is is a bunch of bull****. If you are training in the martial arts you need to be training to fight. Don't go in there thinking you're learning all these "spiritual meanings" and that because of this you can kick ass. If you do this then I guarentee you that you will get killed on the street. It seems to me that most CMA practitionors are just *****s. Now before you start bashing me, I practice Shaolin Kung Fu so don't start running your mouth saying that i'm some MMA guy trying to start something. Half the guys that come into my class are little pussies and nothing more. I don't know how many times i've put them on the ground from something as simple as a roundhouse to the leg. If a roundhouse to the leg puts you down you have issues. Another thing that ****es me off is when I go to spar with someone and they jump into a horse stance or something like that. How stupid can you be? They usually say they got it from a form or something like that. Well, its good to take techniques from forms but for god sakes stand your ass up and do them in a REAL fighting stance. Hell, if you guys want to see a CMA practitionor win a competition just keep watching it and someday ill enter and win it for you guys(probably not but one can dream cant they?).

Sorry, kind of got off on a rant there.

[joedoe]

What is a MA topic doing on this forum? Isn't this the "War on Iraq and general political discussion" forum? :D

[SevenStar]

viper, what's your sifu say when they try to fight like that?

[ArrowFists]

The reason "real" CMA exponents don't compete in NHB competitions is simple, and has been alluded to many times in this thread; They don't train for it.

Let's also not forget that your average CMA exponent is some college kid, or 16 year old Dragon Ball fan who's trying to either find something spiritual, or looking for a way to beat down the local schoolyard bully. They train 2-3 times a week for 1-2 hours, then go home, and that's it. They get their black sash or senior rank and think they're tough ****, even though they could get a beat down from most people on the street.

That's simply the reality of "traditional" MA in the United States. As an instructor you have a choice; teach your students the "real" deal, and go from 100 students to 10 (if you're lucky), or teach them the way most schools teach, and churn out students who are spiritually fufilled, but couldn't fight their way out of a paper-bag. Most instructors, who are doing this as a career and are trying to pay the bills, do it the latter way, and I don't blame them for it.

MMA schools have a different mentality entirely...

You walk into a Judo, Bjj, or Muay Thai school and you'll be in the ring or on the mat within your first 2 classes, getting the snot beat out of you. Most of the TMA crowd can't deal with that. Most of them are truly scared of contact, or of getting hurt. Also going against guys who are bigger than yourself can be quite intimidating. When I first did Judo coming out of Karate, I was completely knocked out of my comfort zone by a 6'4 jamaican who made me his personal rag doll. After spending several years in Karate, I was used to having a comfort zone that got completely erased with Judo training.

"Traditional" schools maybe kumite 10-20 minutes tops. In my old Judo club, randori and shinai lasted for 1-2 hours. And unlike the kumite in my old karate class and my current CMA school, randori was against larger, resisting opponents, going full throttle.

Also sport MA practicioners tend to be in better physical condition. Back in my TMA days, people rarely lifted weights or did cardio. Their classes WERE their workout. In MMA classes, the people were buff, in excellent shape, and always ready to throw down. Its simply a different type of animal.

The average CMA exponent would run away from a MMA class because its far too rough or brutal for them. I've done Judo, and I hated it because I didn't like the mentality of the club. I've been to other clubs and that same mentality was present. Sure I was a better fighter, but I simply liked the atmosphere of CMA kwoons better. I'd be a FAR better fighter if I had stayed in Judo, or Muay Thai, but fighting simply isn't my goal as far as MA training goes.

In a straight up fight, I have no doubt that my former MMA class would roll over my CMA class, that's simply the reality of the situation. They're better conditioned, in better shape, and are more experienced in terms of body contact than my CMA class.

I have little doubt that that's the case in most cities in the USA.