Gay JJ??

[SevenStar]

I know all of you anti grappling guys will have a field day with this one...

http://www.ishigaki.org.uk/

[The Willow Sword]

this qoute off the website just started a villiage people flashback that has me rolling at this very moment.

" If you are interested in having a go or coming to watch us we hope to see you at any of our classes OR come later on and join us at the pub afterwards."


"its fun to stay at thu IIIIIIII SSS H I G A K I "
" its fun to stay at the IIII SS Hi G A K IIIIIII"
"YOU CAN GET YOURSELF CLEAN YOU CAN HAVE A GOOD MEAL YOU CAN DO WHATEEEVER YOU FEEEEELLLL"

MRTWS

:p

[General Kwei]

Come on guys, be fair. Think about what sorts of issues ****sexuals may have in the martial arts. I have met more then my fair share of ****-phobic thugs who would have a hard time training closely with someone whoes lifestyle they dont agree with or can't accept. You open yourself up to getting hurt if you are sparring or grappling with someone who doesnt like you. To me its similar to why you might come across a womens grappling club really. You might be more comfortable with that kind of contact if someone understands your views on life.
It sounds strange and I know not all of us are ****phobes and who wouldnt care what your sexual orientation is once you step in the ring, but you know its out there and you know it can be a problem.

[General Kwei]

apparently h-o-m-o is a bad word?

[Ras-Tanu]

d*mn man, i was expecting some flash movie cartoon with casio keyboard music!! :eek:

[Chang Style Novice]

I like the idea of a rainbow belt!

And yeah, Kwei, not only can you not say ****sexual and ****genous, but on this board you can't refer to ****nids, ****nculi or yama****a. Why? Because a bunch of twats made the censor software.

[General Kwei]

LOL! lets see here.. **** twats **** twats hmmmmmmmmm

[African Tiger]

So how did twats make it through the software???

Anywho, I wonder about training with gay men, when doing BJJ or any other grappling art.

These arts require so much close contact, and unfortunately (I used to sing in a choir...I was the straight man LITERALLY) some ****sexual men can't differentiate between groping and grappling! But if they are training with other gay men, I say go for it. And to be fair, I'm always a bit uncomfortable when I'm training with one of my kung fu sisters, when we do chin na.

And people wonder why I do kung fu instead of BJJ....:D

[TaoBoy]

Apparently, that site is so bad I'm not even allowed to view it. D@mn filter software.

[rubthebuddha]

just because someone is gay means they want to manhandle your man handle. gay people are no different than straight when it comes to being picky. is just like rolling with women. i hate to bruise a few egos here, but most guys see a cute woman at a school and immediately think "ooo, i wanna work with her." however, does that woman think, "ooo, lots of guys, and i wanna be with every one of them" when she walks in? sorry, but it doesn't work that way. she may like one or two if they pique her interest, but that's about all you're gonna get.

so lay off the fear, guys. just because a person likes men doesn't mean they like YOU.

besides, most the gay guys i know are boxers. :p

[kungfu cowboy]

Why would anything having to do with sex be an issue in the study of martial arts?!:confused:

[neito]

i think this school is a good idea since both gays and non-gays would probably feel quite awkward grappling together.

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
however, does that woman think, "ooo, lots of guys, and i wanna be with every one of them" when she walks in?


Some do, not that i personally have met any of those, but i know they do.

[rubthebuddha]

aye. my roommate is the hockey coach of the uni i work for. they call them "puck bunnies."

what should we call ours? mat bunnies?

[Xebsball]

Hmm i dunno, but i think the term for chicks that dig fighters here is "Maria Tatame"

Just as the chicks that only care for guys with cars are called "Maria Gasolina"

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
just because someone is gay means they want to manhandle your man handle. gay people are no different than straight when it comes to being picky. is just like rolling with women. i hate to bruise a few egos here, but most guys see a cute woman at a school and immediately think "ooo, i wanna work with her." however, does that woman think, "ooo, lots of guys, and i wanna be with every one of them" when she walks in? sorry, but it doesn't work that way. she may like one or two if they pique her interest, but that's about all you're gonna get.

so lay off the fear, guys. just because a person likes men doesn't mean they like YOU.

besides, most the gay guys i know are boxers. :p

Good post and very true. I've had at least 7 gay men hit on me so far - that's more than some of the men here have had from men and women combined ;) so I tend to get irked at the idea grappling with gay men.

[rubthebuddha]

thanks, seven.

honestly, this has been brought up time after time, and i don't think it's a problem until someone makes it a problem. if a person doesn't like rolling with someone who makes them uncomfy, fine. that's your prerogative.

if someone makes it an issue during rolling, then unwelcome contact is just that -- unwelcome -- and it doesn't matter WHO is giving it. it is no different from a girl doing the same thing when you don't want her to, and unwelcome contact, particularly of that sort, has no business in a place where people are working as closely as at a MA school (much less anywhere else).

[African Tiger]

but being a part of the aforementioned "mostly gay men" choir, I had the opportunity to watch them at work....er, let me rephrase that, WATCH them in their environment (gay bars, dinner with "the boys).

All of the guys I hung out with (and that #'s about 30) ALL love the challenge of "turning" a "breeder."

Some of their philosophy included statements such as "All men are gay or pretending to be straight. Every straight man has a gay man inside him. The straighter they are, the faster they turn over onto their stomachs." I had one of them recite that last mantra (apologies to all offended belivers) right in front of me.

I found myself the lone "breeder" at one of their house parties. Believe me, I was thought to be on the menu after a while.

So Rub, I think you're misinterpreting our statements as h.o.m.o.phobia. I think it's about defending your heterosexuality, sometimes. In the same way girls don't want to be approached by a man they don't find attractive, I don't want to be approached by a man, and I certainly wouldn't grapple with one.

And if I might add, two of my fellow students at Taoist Inst. are gay, and I've done chin na with both of them. But, they respect my right to be straight, and I don't make asinine comments like, "pole smoking" or "driving the hershey highway" :D

[SevenStar]

One that I know is proud of the fact that he "turned" a football player.

[TaoBoy]

'Turning' someone just sounds a little too Star Wars for my liking.

[qeySuS]

I've grappled a VERY nice girl on a number of occations (she kicked my ass too), can't say i was aroused at all by the situation, although it was nice rolling with her because she smelled good :P

That website is funny though, think i'll go the the OtherGround and post it :D

[General Kwei]

qeySus - you bring up a good point as well, lest assume you are all heterosexual men, would you assume, as rubthebudda pointed out, that every girl who walks in wants to get with you? Would you aslo assume a gay man wants to get with you? while not gay, I have this funny feeling that gay men may get into martial arts for much the same reasons we do.

[Mr Punch]

Think these are the guys who came and did a couple of seminars I attended with the (now defunct) gay aikido club in Birmingham UK. Excellent groundwork... and no, I'm not kidding!!


ATsome ****sexual men can't differentiate between groping and grappling!

Frankly AT I'm surprised at you. This is a load of bollocks. Or a handfull even...

In my experience, they showed nothing but respect. In fact if anything they were more cagey about letting a big butch hetero like me (!) into their personal space despite having been invited to attend the seminars.

And sure they made comments about 'turning', but they were all in good bad humour!!! They were very straight in their delivery, so to speak...! :rolleyes:

And yeah, the reason they started the gay aiki club in the first place was because of bad attitudes from the main dojo they were affiliated with, and the reasons they needed some kind of martial art are all too apparent in the all-too ****phobic UK... saw the after effects a couple of times... :eek:

And that's ****phobic for ****'s sake! :mad:

[Ford Prefect]

When I was searching for a wrestling club near me I found a gay wrestling club. I think it was kind of a singles thing.

[NYerRoman]

Do you people hear how stupid you sound?
A separate gay MA school b/c you feel uncomfortable?

****rubbing my eyes****
Am I in the right century?

Replace "gay" with another minority or group.
Black, Jew, etc....
That's what it was up to...oh....not long ago.

And the fear of being felt up? Oh for God's sake.....

I don't support such an idea of a separate kwoon b/c in a kwoon, your prejudices and biggotry remain outside. A kwoon is for all. Not a select few or group. If you are not serious about the MA, don't go.
You are all starting to talk about gay people as if they were
sex staved or after a while with straight people, they need to
"try" to turn someone.... If I remember correctly, one woman
is raped every two seconds....by straight men.
Shiiiiiiiit......women, watch out. After a while, heterosexuals
just may force themselves on you. Get it people?

You all sound stupid.

[Chang Style Novice]

You ever see that weird little 'roman tunic' looking pair of shorts that Michael McDonald wears sometimes in K1?

I'm not saying for SURE, now, but...:p

Seriously, the only thing that would discourage me from training at this club is the commute.

[General Kwei]

NYerRoman - I think some people were saying that they choose to have a seperate dojo because there are unfortunately people out there who cant handle being in the same room much less grappling with gay men. I think your right, it shouldnt be that way but it sometimes is and for now, maybe these guys have found a good answer for them?

[Mr Punch]

NYR, I agree in theory, that there shouldn't have to be segregation in the first place, but this is the real world.

My gay kohai felt the need to set the club up, and I supported him in doing it, as did a lot of others.

As the good general says...

[KC Elbows]

"Good post and very true. I've had at least 7 gay men hit on me so far - that's more than some of the men here have had from men and women combined so I tend to get irked at the idea grappling with gay men."

Even the ugliest woman in the world has been hit on by more men than you, and might have a better attitude about grappling with straight men. There's such a thing as the benefit of the doubt. One shouldn't let their judgements of a group become too colored by the behavior of that group in a club environment.

[KC Elbows]

Here's a hypothetical. You run a grappling school. It comes to your attention that one student is gay, and is interested in another (male) student. That male student is interested in another (female) student. Which is the bigger problem?

[Chang Style Novice]

KC -

As long as all three understand the rules of the school (we're here to train, so leave your baggage at the door) there is no problem.

[KC Elbows]

Exactly.

Another hypothetical. The same group as before, same interests, but no one's acting on those interests, because it's the school. However, the male student, through no innappropriate behavior on the part of the h0mosexual student, finds out that the h0mosexual student likes him, and raises a big stink with the other students. Meanwhile, the female student finds out that the male student likes her, and basically ignores it, cause it ain't ever gonna happen.

Then what?

[Chang Style Novice]

Let him know he has to leave his baggage at the door. If he can't put down his baggage to come through the door, so be it. If he insists on training anyway, he can do it at the rates for private lessons, since that's all he'll be getting.

Then wink and blow kisses at him whenever I see him in the street (kidding!)

[KC Elbows]

Interesting. He DID leave his baggage at the door, he never acted on his impulses, as I said, through no inappropriate behavior on his part, it got out. He never planned on acting on it, it never affected his performance, it was just someone talked that shouldn't have. What you are suggesting is isolating one student for thoughts, and not punishing the other male for having the same thoughts about another student. Or were you talking about the straight student?

Had it become known that the male student had interests in the female student, would he have to go to private lessons as well? That's assuming you weren't talking about the straight student, of course.

I really should have assigned names.

Tom-g@y grappler
Ivan-straight grappler
Mary-chick grappler

[qeySuS]

i think he's talkin about the straight guy KC.

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, my measures were directed at Ivan. I should've been clearer about that.

[ewallace]

I think the real question here is...is Mary a hottie? That would be a major factor in my opinion.

[Chang Style Novice]

Hey, swiss cheese avatars are MY department, mister!

Now, we must duel. Prepare to meet your ancestors!

[KC Elbows]

Well, I guess I was right about naming them.

I agree. It's a school. Training time is training time. Regardless of what clubs people go to.

As for Mary...:eek: :eek: ;)

[ewallace]

The only problem I have with that school is that they openly advertise being a gay marital arts school. I believe a "Don't ask Don't Tell" policy is a good one for m/a schools. It shouldn't make a difference.

I wouldn't have any problem rolling with a gay man. I would definitely have a problem rolling with a "flamer". Just as I would have a problem rolling with a girl who is very vocal about who she would like to hook up with after class. Most of you should know the type.

On a different tangent, how would most of you feel about learning from a teacher that was open about his/her/it's sexuality?

[Chang Style Novice]

The only things that matters about a teacher are ability to teach, knowledge of the subject, and concern for the students. With that covered, you're good to go.

[General Kwei]

I dont think sexuality should be an issue at all ewallace. Let's say I am a gay teacher, should I let everyone know? People interpret that in different ways, I am being too prideful in my sexuality and possibly forcing it on others or being too forward. Should I hide it? Am I admitting shame or that there is something wrong with the way I think and so I need to hide it because everyone will assume I am some sort of pervert who does martial arts to get close to the guys?
Or should I not worry about it, if someone ask I am honest about it, if someone doesnt, I dont worry about it either.

I think its bizarre how some people think. A good example that was close to home is this. I had two uncles and they lived with my grandfather. We used ot go spend weekends out there and I used to share a bed with my older uncle. I was about 6 years old or there abouts, when he came out and openly admitted he was gay.
The first thing my mother did was pull me to the side and ask me if he had ever touched me or messed with me. I was 6 years old and I looked her straight in the eye and said something to the affect of "Mom, he is gay, he is not a child molester or a pervert."
I think if you are the type to assume that a gay man is going to get turned on by rolling with you or is going to grope you at every oppurtunity one of two things is wrong with you. You are the type of guys that assumes every girl who smiles at you is hitting on you, or you are so ****phobic you cant see past the persons choices to see the person.

[KC Elbows]

"The only problem I have with that school is that they openly advertise being a gay marital arts school. I believe a "Don't ask Don't Tell" policy is a good one for m/a schools. It shouldn't make a difference."

That might be good, if that 'don't ask, don't tell' policy included talking about training partner's spouses and significant others. I've yet to see a single school like that. Using kung fu terms, a lot of people want to be brothers and sisters in kung fu. Grapplers are certainly not different, even if they might not use the same terms. Do you want to practice somewhere where no one really cares enough to know much about you after years of practice together, simply because knowing more would be awkward for a time? I think that is why this sort of school exists. You have to be able to trust your training partners. Obviously, this would be a greater need to someone who is likely to run into hatred for lifestyle reasons.

"On a different tangent, how would most of you feel about learning from a teacher that was open about his/her/it's sexuality?"

If he maintained professionalism and was the most skilled fighter for the money, I don't see the problem. As for an 'it', I suppose I'd be more bothered by that, simply because I find people getting surgery for no physical reason scary. Same with plastic surgery nuts. Anyone that unhappy with their bodies I don't understand. I guess I'm just not that abstract, I see the body I was given as an important thing, even if just because of the lessons I learn from the limitations and strengths it gives me. When other people rebel against that, it creeps me out. Of course, cotton balls also creep me out. I definitely couldn't train with an 'it' with cotton balls.:D

[MightyB]

"Why would anything having to do with sex be an issue in the study of martial arts?!"

A good Darwinian biologist would say that it has everything to do with studying the martial arts.

-----------------

I wonder if the battle cry of their gym is "Squeal like a Pig, Fat Boy!"

[ewallace]

For the record, if I found an instructor that was very good, I felt I could learn something from, and I found out he was gay, I would definitely train with him.

If I found an instructor that was very good, I felt I could learn something from, and when we first meet he says "My name is 'x', I teach this class, and I am gay and proud, I would definitely NOT train with him.

When I meet people and tell them what I do for a living, I tell them I create web applications. I don't tell them I write web applications in active server pages using JScript. It's just not necessary to disclose such information at that time.

When I speak of "Don't ask Don't tell", I am referring to not making an issue of it. If a new student comes in, it is not necessary to say "Hi, I'm Phil and I'm gay". Nor is it necessary for anyone in the class to say "Welcome to the class Phil, and by the way are you gay"?

[KC Elbows]

eWallace,
I can see that. As long as there's a point where people aren't having to hide stuff from people they should trust, I don't have a problem with that.

BTW, eWallace, I applaud you on your new avatar. Your old one scared me in much the same way as people who have surgeries but don't need them and cotton balls.

[NYerRoman]

Here here General Kwei. You are a good general.
I'm sorry people, but if you want to advocate a separate kwoon b/c of some gay MArtist, then YOU should be the one to leave. MA has no room for that type of attitude.

Just look at what some people wrote. I hope those who wrote motha f*ckin' stupid sh1t are real old b/c I'd be a bit taken back if they were from my generation.

I also thought if some guy liked me in a close situation, the word NO would come to my head and I would have to say it. People are people.

[fa_jing]

This may seem unfair towards women, but women at least are used to dealing with unwelcome advances from men, and have a framework with which to deal with it. Additionally, other men will come to the aid of said woman if necessary. While men are completely spooked out by another man making such advances, will feel uncomfortable as to why they have been singled out for such an advance, and other men are unlikely to come to their aid. A man may just take the most expeditious route, especially given the environment of the kwoon, and seek to inflict bodily injury upon the ****sexual.

Furthermore, the gay grappling association could have been formed just because the participants wanted it that way. There is no anti-gay current running through choral societies, yet there still is a "Chicago gay men's chorus." They simply prefer it that way.

[ewallace]

BTW, eWallace, I applaud you on your new avatar. Your old one scared me in much the same way as people who have surgeries but don't need them and cotton balls.
Thanks. This may be short lived though, as I am not happy with the cheese anymore. It has also offended CSN and therefore outlived it's usefulness.

[Chang Style Novice]

Thassrite! You betta run!:D