Gung Lik Kuen and Jeet Kuen

[tparkerkfo]

Forgive my Cantonese for you Manderian purests ;)

I study hung gar and we have these forms in our system. I was interested in what others that specialize in these forms or styles that these forms are found in, think about the forms.

What sort of things do you feel the forms teach you? I think we do them with a southern flavor so they probably have a different feel than what the northern systems do. Any one care to share advice, opinions, tips, history, etc?

Thanks
Tom
________
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[David Jamieson]

Hello der.

Gung Lik Kuen exists in several styles both northern and southern. It's purpose is strength development, bone development, tensile muscle development and of course sinew and tendon lengthening and strengthening.

It also develops the horse stance heavily in the way that it was taught to me where a lot of the form is spent in horse.

The name translates to roughly "Power generating fist" but it also has another meaning. Gong Lik also means "Powerful essence" and the term is used when a person sees kung fu played with good power and intent. The person doing this is said to have gung lik. (Kung Lek ;) )

For Jeet Kuen, well this one means roughly "stopping fist" and develops speed and hand/eye coordination.

Both these forms build the practitioner and arm him with a reasonable set of training regimens to develop all those qualities that should be in a kungfu practitioner.

Anyway, likely there is more to contribute from the others.

peace

[NorthernShaolin]

tparkerkfo,

These two sets are part of the standard 10 Ching Wu (Jing Mo) set. So I believe that if you look into your sifu's roots there is a connection to Ching Wu. One of your past sifus either learned or taught at the Ching Wu Schools.

All sifus who teach at the Ching Wu schools must first learn and teach the standard 10 sets before they can teach their speciality (their own style) to the students. These are very strick rules in Ching Wu.

All students must learn the 10 standard Ching Wu sets, which takes two years to learn, before moving onto a specialized style.

Of course these sets will have southern flavor in them since your sifu style will influence it. But as long as the core of the sets is taught, southern influence onto the Northern sets does not matter.

[tparkerkfo]

Hello Kung Lek and Northern Shaolin,

Thanks for the input. As far as I know, my lineage does not have a direct lineage to Ching Wu. However, my sigung and his sifu have noticed the merits of various styles and felt the need to introduce various sets, atleast from what I have deduced. Some day I will try to get a clear answer. The norther sets add quickness and flexability were some may perceive is lacking in Hung Gar. I do find these sets challenging. LOL.

One question I have, it was mentioned that kung lek kuen develops the bones and tendons as well as the horse. I don't want to argue the point but how does it develop the bones? The tendones I can see a little in the stretching, but I see more tendon stuff in Jeet Kuen. As far as bone strengthening and horse stance, I would say Hung Gar develops this to a specialty. I would say that Kung Lik Kuen has different attributes that a hung stylist woul find useful, though I am still figuring it out. LOL.

Do I understand correctly, that it may not matter if I use a southern or norhtern flavor? That these forms may be generic? I can apply the stengths of my style in these forms? This makes sense if various styles would learn these. If eagle claw learned these in the north, and then was transfered to the south to say choy li fut (Tarn San) or in Fut san, then it would make some sense that it would be flexible.

Also, I do have a wing chun background, which jeet is a concept. I would make a subtle distinction that jeet doesn't mean stop in the sense that it stops something in its track. I would say that it meets or intercepts something. The major difference would be in that meeting doesn't mean stoping dead in its track. You can intercept and then redirect. Not sure if this is what is meant in Jeet Kuen though. I will need to look at the form more. i am just learning this set.

Thanks all. Hope to hear more.
Tom
________
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[omarthefish]

Hey don't even waste your time with the mandarin. This is the SOUTHERN forum.

Good comments on Gung Lik from Kung Lik. I have seen praying mantins versions of Gung Lik as well. I tend to think of it as just a good basic set. The horses are well defined and clear. The movements are relatively easy to teach. There are short compact movements and loose whipping movements. All in all an excellent introduction to most of the primary concepts in Chinese gong-fu.

I heard from my Sifu originally it was an eagle claw set but has since been imported into the basic curriculum of many styles for the reasons mentioned above.

All the best.
Omar

[mantis108]

Kung Lik Kuen (Gongliquan) and Jeet Kuen (Jiequan) are very interesting forms of Jing Wu assoc.

here is a link to a discussion on Qongliquan:

Qongliquan discussion (http://forums.delphiforums.com/Taijimantis/messages?msg=346.1)

Lately, I have received some more info. that is related to the old Gongliquan system. It is quite fascinating. BTW, the building the bone part comes from the Pai Da (body hardening) elements that "were" in the form. Much of those have been lost.

As for Jeet Kuen (Jiequan), it is the opposit dynamic of Gongliquan. It is mainly a kicking set. In a way, they compliment each other well althought they are most likely not from the same system.

Mantis108

[David Jamieson]

Hi Mantis 108-

My sifu teaches -Hak Fu Gong Lik Kuen- and as far as I understand, all elements are intact. Bone, muscle, sinew/tendon, blood and breath are all worked in this set. It would be an excellent set to have if you had only one set in other words.

I was taught it in a progressive manor. Meaning the first time I learned it is different from what the finished set is. I have practiced my sifus version of this set for more than 8 years now and I would regard it as advanced when played properly. But then, i guess that is true for any set simple or complex :)

As for the meaning of "jeet" - well, "interception" is one way of translating, "stopping" is another way I guess. The essence is in the motion and flow of the set.

I'm sure many of us here understand by now that there are multiple applications to any given move extrapolated from a set

In the end, I've never given a whole lot of heed to romanized spellings or the semantics of Kungfu training. Just do the training and pay attention during instruction and correction. After time, it will work itself out accordingly.

peace

[mantis108]

<<My sifu teaches -Hak Fu Gong Lik Kuen- and as far as I understand, all elements are intact. Bone, muscle, sinew/tendon, blood and breath are all worked in this set. It would be an excellent set to have if you had only one set in other words.>>

That sounds like a very interesting set.

<<I was taught it in a progressive manor. Meaning the first time I learned it is different from what the finished set is. I have practiced my sifus version of this set for more than 8 years now and I would regard it as advanced when played properly. But then, i guess that is true for any set simple or complex>>

Well said, my friend. :)

<<As for the meaning of "jeet" - well, "interception" is one way of translating, "stopping" is another way I guess. The essence is in the motion and flow of the set.>>

I think Jing Wu use the character for "the flow of motion" or rythum as the title. But we used the word interception, which has same prounciation but different in meaning.

<<I'm sure many of us here understand by now that there are multiple applications to any given move extrapolated from a set>>

I guess was just pointing out the obvious. I rant about that sometime because I rarely seem any descent application of the Gongliquan out there (including Dr YJM's). My beef is those who are in the position to publish material in CMA don't seem to be interested in publish the better stuff. I have seen Japanese arts (Video or TV) that has segment of even just 5 mins that is so rich in techniques that IMHO is more valuable than a $40 USD Kung Fu tape of 45 mins. No wonder people think that Kung Fu sucks. This wouldn't have happened if Kung Fu people seriously take publishing material seriously.

<<In the end, I've never given a whole lot of heed to romanized spellings or the semantics of Kungfu training. Just do the training and pay attention during instruction and correction. After time, it will work itself out accordingly.>>

Fair enough. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantis_seeker]

Hi all,

I learned mantis version of Kung lik keun. I have also seen and partially learned the eagle claw version from GM Lung Shum. Both versions are similiar but IMO the mantis version focuses more on fighting applications. The energy is also different between the two.


I don't want to argue the point but how does it develop the bones? The tendones I can see a little in the stretching, but I see more tendon stuff in Jeet Kuen.

tparkerkfo maybe you can elaborate on how you are performing this set? There are movements in the form which are for stretching but I was taught the whole form should be practiced with loose whipping motions where your whole body contracts at the end of a movement. In all it is a very external set maybe not as hard as Hung Gar though LOL.

mantis_seeker

[Crimson Phoenix]

Mantis 108, I agree with you...but at the same time I disagree...why? Because presenting all the applications of a form would mean you'd have to write a whole book just for a single form. Would such books sell? definitely no, or with so small an audience that it would mean sure bankrupcy to the publisher.
And even with that, there would still be people saying "yeah, but this and that application are missing, yet in my school blah blah", because everyone has their own ideas (based on their schools, experiences, whatever) of what a "good" apllication is...good refferred to what? It's fidelity to the move in the form? It's usage of the principle? It's combat effectiveness (as dull as this concept is?)?? What you consider a good application, another man will consider less important than another variant...who is right? who is wrong?
See, it's not that easy to present a form and application and impossible to satisfy everyone...
If man to man instruction and oral transmission from sifu to student is so emphasized in martial arts, it's because the guys realized ages ago that no written document, however complex it could be, will catch the essence of teaching.
Publishers cannot financially sell books about one form with 1000s of applications...too small an audience...so they put many forms, and included some basic applications...of course, by doing so, they have to chose...and we all know everybody can't be pleased (even what you consider the most beautiful woman on earth could be an ugly one to someone across the globe).
Still, it is better than having no books at all...

[dsn]

Kung Lek Kuen and Jeet Kuen are both forms that were taught at the Ching Mo schools before students would specialize under a specific master. Two more are Tam Tui and Bek Bo (not sure that one is spelled right; its the mantis one).

My system Fan Tzi Ying Jow Pai (ie: Northern Eagle Claw) as well as Hung Gar were both Ching Mo systems.

-
Jeremiah Spradlin - Northern Eagle Claw - Atlanta, Georgia

[tparkerkfo]

Originally posted by mantis_seeker

tparkerkfo maybe you can elaborate on how you are performing this set? There are movements in the form which are for stretching but I was taught the whole form should be practiced with loose whipping motions where your whole body contracts at the end of a movement. In all it is a very external set maybe not as hard as Hung Gar though LOL.

mantis_seeker [/B]

I am not sure what your looking for. I have some eagle claw tapes with these two forms and we do it fairly close to what they do. There is a lot of whiping or fast movements and strethcing. I see Jeet Kune as more demanding because of the kicks. Though Gung Lik Kuen seems to have more long range stretching in the punches in a few parts. Don't know though, that is why I am asking LOL.

Tom
________
Vaperizer (http://www.vaporshop.com)

[dsn]

I do have to note that I have seen these Ching Mo forms done by Northern Eagle Claw, Hung Gar, and Northern Praying Mantis schools, and even though its the same form, different systems add to these forms to make them more like the style of that particular system.

However, if you know the forms, you will easily be able to tell its still Kung Lek Kuen (Strong Fist), Jeet Kuen (Quick Fist), and Tam Tui (Springing Leg).

-
Jeremiah Spradlin - Northern Eagle Claw - Atlanta, Georgia.

[[Censored]]

What is the best translation of "jeet" in your opinion? "Shut down", "stop", "intercept", or something else?

[dsn]

Well... according to the forms chart in our school:

Kung Lek Kuen = Power Fist
Jeet Kuen = Quick Fist
Tam Tui = Springing Leg

I don't speak Chinese, but this is directly off of our school's form list. :)

-
Jeremiah Spradlin - Ying Jow Pai ( Northern Eagle Claw KungFu ), Atlanta, Georgia

[GLW]

That is the problem with English from Chinese...

Jeet is spelled one way but there are a couple of characters and a couple of variations in pronunciation.

One is Jeet (Mandarin - Jie) - intercept
One is Jeet (Mandarin...can't spell it...doh) - fast ....

So, if you don't see the character or are told explicitly, you end up with different names....

There is one well known teacher (Chinese too) that has mistranslated one of the routines they teach - even with the Chinese characters because they translated each character instead of realizing that two of the characters go together and make the meaning different....

[mantis108]

Hi Crimson Pheonix,

<<<Mantis 108, I agree with you...but at the same time I disagree...why?>>>

Great, let's have a discussion about that. :)

<<<Because presenting all the applications of a form would mean you'd have to write a whole book just for a single form. Would such books sell? definitely no, or with so small an audience that it would mean sure bankrupcy to the publisher.>>>

Well not if the applications are done in the sake of doing applications. That means a wide array of apps are possible. But the fact that forms are moves that comes together under one theme means there is a lesson to be had despite the Da Ti Na Shuai possibilities. If the material are presented in a generally recognizable and agreeable manner, I don't see why such a book won't be sought after. It is a matter of origanizing and presenting the information in a interesting and inspiring way.

<<<And even with that, there would still be people saying "yeah, but this and that application are missing, yet in my school blah blah", because everyone has their own ideas (based on their schools, experiences, whatever) of what a "good" apllication is...good refferred to what? >>>

Well the universality of the apps is a good start. Then style specific apps in comparsion is a bonus. Surely a form such as Gongliquan is almost universal. A good application/combo should have a good entry, main technique, and a follow up. This would not be hard to gauge with experience. I think I am basically Jaded by the one punch one kill applications that are flooding the market.

<<<It's fidelity to the move in the form? It's usage of the principle? It's combat effectiveness (as dull as this concept is?)?? What you consider a good application, another man will consider less important than another variant...who is right? who is wrong?
See, it's not that easy to present a form and application and impossible to satisfy everyone...>>>

I agree that it is not easy but for the sake of Kung Fu, the master should not just stop trying. BTW, if the master can not present his/her material in its entirety and comprehensiveness and to bring the beholder to understand the message, should he/she be qualified as a master? I am not critical of any particular master but in general I personally am against half explained stuff. Also form has a flow which can be cross checked by 2 men drills and forms (not that you have to do it that way). There is no reason that a central theme and/or principle of techniques can not be found within a form. There is always water to make the flour stick together as a dough. Otherwise such material should be regarded as lines or roads not a form.

<<<If man to man instruction and oral transmission from sifu to student is so emphasized in martial arts, it's because the guys realized ages ago that no written document, however complex it could be, will catch the essence of teaching.>>>

Good point but it will be lean towards elitisim in the schools and Kung Fu community in general. That is not to the best interest of the Kung Fu community at large.

<<<Publishers cannot financially sell books about one form with 1000s of applications...too small an audience...so they put many forms, and included some basic applications...of course, by doing so, they have to chose...and we all know everybody can't be pleased (even what you consider the most beautiful woman on earth could be an ugly one to someone across the globe).
Still, it is better than having no books at all...>>>

I will have to respectfull disagree since a lot of the application base books and video such as BJJ, Judo, etc... sells pretty well. So I think a lot of the Kung Fu "masters" are really behind the times. That is just my own believes.

Best regards

Mantis108

[Crimson Phoenix]

I agree with all you said (except some little points I will develop under)...still, I believe that it is not easy to do: if you were to present da,ti,na applications for a single tech, and along with that a two-man drill that as you excellently plointed out can be devised from the techs, it would make at least like 5-6 pics of applications for a SINGLE move...the number of pages can increase REAL fast. If you skip the history, some people will complain, if you skip the training methods, some people will complain, and so on and so on...I believe, and it's just MHO, that it is impossible to make a perfect gong fu book...even the best book out there (about which many people will disagree when it's time to vote, trust me) will lack something...this missing part might be crucial to you, and not to the next guy...

OK, what I disagreed mostly with was about elitism...WE HAVE TO BE ELITIST...it's WAR arts we're talking about...not anybody can learn to fight for real (let's forget about P.C.).
You see how many fighters of other styles scoff at us and kung fu already?? If we are not pointing towards a ceratin kind of elitism it is going to be even worse...good gong fu was never and should never be a mass product (don't get me wrong, there are schools with many students still producing very high gong fu). Real gong fu, even in modern, big schools, is demanding. Even though it has spread in ways the elders never imagined thanks to modern communication, it remains an elistist art deep inside. You have to suffer...sweat...sometimes bleed. Dedicate a lot of your time and money, give up a part of your social life even...you can't acquire true gong fu by being a sybarite and bumming around, or unwilling to invest anything...in the end, good gong fu is elistis. To me, books and videos are wonderful tools to sensibilize the masses, and preserve some of the art. But eventually you'll have to learn from the master, it's all that counts. The book, IMHO, are there to draw persons to the art, persons that have what it takes but might never have heard of the art or a talented master if it weren't for the books...
Books are like boats...once you are across the river, you don't need the boat anymore, however useful it was during the cruise...I would be very disapointed if a master was to give all his tricks in a book...I don't even think it's possible, since the tricks usually need man to man teaching...sure, he can mention it in a book, but it's quite useless...to me, a good master need to keep some full clips...unloading everything in a book would be a bad idea for gong fu. To me, gong fu is something you have to deserve...gong fu doesn't come to you, you have to come to gong fu...

Then there's the history research...it doesn't improve your fighting at all, but God how sweet a pastime that is :D

Thanks for your time, and sorry for the lenghty blah blah :)

[5thBrother]

is this the form in Yang jwing-ming.... book on long fist?

thanks

:)

[David Jamieson]

5b-

I believe that book by YJM covers the set Lien Bo Chuan.

cheers

[NorthernShaolin]

As for Jeet Kuen (Jiequan), it is the opposit dynamic of Gongliquan. It is mainly a kicking set. In a way, they compliment each other well althought they are most likely not from the same system.

Mantis108 [/B][/QUOTE]

Your right Mantis108.
Jeet Kuen is from the Mi Tsung Style. The original name of this set is called Flying Swallow Fist and it builds the legs. Gongliquan or Kung Lic Kuen develops upper body strength. I forget the roots of this set but it is not Mi Tsung.

[mantis108]

Hi NorthShaolin,

Great to hear from you. Thank you for the wonderful info. I really appreciate it. Would you share more insight about Jie Quan with us? Thank you once again.

5th Brother,

I think the book covers both Lien Bu and Gongliquan plus a few more forms.

Best regards,

Mantis108

[Day Tong]

Northern Shaolin,

I had also heard that Gung Lik Kuen & Jeet Kuen were from a Northern system called, "Little River system".

[norther practitioner]

Gong Li chuan...

there are a bunch of references in the forums if you do a search........

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=13097&highlight=gong+li+chuan

is one thread....

also gong li quan...


here is the search results

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/search.php?action=showresults&searchid=99438&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

[Leimeng]

~ So, who are the best and worst commercial school and video sources of these two schools?

peace

[dc_jowga]

in my school, we offer gune lic, jeet kune, tan tui and bat bo. there is another form, an eagle claw form which i learned before my sifu died, which me and my si hing (we are the only ones who learn it) forgot the name.

my sifu, chin yuk din (dean chin) was a student of lau man fat before he learned from chan man cheung (jow ga), so we have eagle claw in our system. the northern form gives us a good balance to our southern style form.