An open letter to Sifu Dave Lacey

[extrajoseph]

Deplorable Behaviour

My corresponding criticism is directed at Sifu Dave Lacey, since I cannot write to him direct, I have to do it here. If you don't mind, please do not answer this posting if you are not Sifu Dave himself.



Dear Sifu Dave,

Not only you have alienated himself against Sifu Chen Yong Fa and Sifu Wong Doc Fai with what you said on your website, you are now now picking on Sifu Lee Koon Hung’s student. By singling out Fu-Pow’s classmate in KL and then brat about it on this forum you have showed no respect for Sifu Mak Hin Fai as well.

It is OK to attack no-names like myself and other lowly students but it is not OK to make others loose face in public on account of us. If you likes to attack Fu-Pow and myself personally, then go ahead. Please do not attack other reputable teachers just because we share some of their ideas, we speak as individuals here and should be treated as such.

If you want to take issues with Sifu Chen Yong Fa, Sifu Wong Doc Fai or Sifu Mak Hin Fai, you should contact them directly and privately, their contact details are available on their webpage.

You may not be aware of this, but your behaviour is deplorable,
so please stop before it is too late. No disrepect is intended and I look forward to your reply.

Sincerely yours,

JosephX

[anton]

Originally posted by extrajoseph
By singling out Fu-Pow’s classmate in KL and then brat about it on this forum you have showed no respect for Sifu Mak Hin Fai as well.
erm... (assuming you meant "brag") did sifu Dave Lacey post some bragging remarks on this forum? Whats his handle, and when did he post? I must have missed it!


...we speak as individuals here and should be treated as such.
It appears your opinion differs to that of Sifu Lacey on this point.


If you want to take issues with Sifu Chen Yong Fa, Sifu Wong Doc Fai or Sifu Mak Hin Fai, you should contact them directly and privately, their contact details are available on their webpage.
Seeing as, to my knowledge, Sifu Lacey does not post on this forum, it is easy to imagine how he would reply: "You could have taken some of your own advice and contacted Dave Lacey privately yourself, before posting your issues on this forum, provoking him to respond on his web site and thus sparking a public conflict.

[Serpent]

anton, try reading the letter properly first. Then shut up if you're not Dave Lacey.

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by anton

erm... (assuming you meant "brag") did sifu Dave Lacey post some bragging remarks on this forum? Whats his handle, and when did he post? I must have missed it!


This is what you have missed out, an earlier post from Setansi to Fu-Pow:

"Fu Pow,
Have me banned put me on your ignore list realy it makes no diffrence to me I find this forum tiresome. Where you with your sifu in Malysia ? We didn' expect jo jo to be there but we were looking for you. would'nt be supprised if you were the one who denied being fu pow when asked directly by the General himself."

I can imagine the fearsome General giving Fu-Pow's poor class mate the third degree. How would you feel if one of your students was "tempered" with? To me it was a deplorable behaviour from one teacher to another teacher's student and then Setansi has the hide to write about it publicly and felt proud of his Sifu, isn't it a bit too much? I don't know what you would call it, I would call it bragging (sorry about the spelling mistake).

Anton, there is no need to answer me back, this is an open letter to Sifu Dave and I prefer to speak to him direct. Thank you for your effort.

JosephX

[bean curd]

joe seph the protector.

if fu pow won't go to david and david had the oppertunity to find him in malyasia, what is wrong with that, fu pow keeps asking david to answer him etc. so when he does you make out he is again in the wrong - you grasp at any straws don't you.

since fu pows' sifu was also there and well with in the immediate vicinity, what is the problem then?? it clearly happened in the open and infront of many people, not hidden by any stretch of your pathetic imagination. you where there right lol.

lets not forget also david with four others stood up for all CLF in HK, so why would he do anything underhanded, he has proven himself many many times, so he would not do anything sinister as you are trying to imply.

it would be no different if you met david and could speak to him directly over your concerns on his manners to you and your strong conviction on the truth of CLF history, i am sure if you had the oppertunity you would do the same thing right ??

oh wait, thats right you where there, weren't you, and you did see david, didn't you - your convictions must have been strong because you didn't approach him did you, tell him your name and ask to discuss the situations first hand.

no you bring it to a public forum and act big here hahaha.

oh it is a public forum so anyone can post on anysite, if you don't want people to write, then don't post

:D

[extrajoseph]

Your post was so trivial, there is no need for a reply. I will talk to you another time when you have something more interesting to say.:D

Sifu Dave can speak for himself, unless you are his mouth piece, are you?:p

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by bean curd
lets not forget also david with four others stood up for all CLF in HK

Only problem was nothing happened and they took all the credit for protecting the reputation of the entire CLF in Hong Kong.

Read all about it, "The Great Grudge Match of the Century never happened." There goes another urban myth!

http://www.buksing.com/5_panthers/5_panthers.html

[iron_silk]

I don't know

It's just general courtesy. You can do whatever you want no one is going to stop you...but...I guess it only reflects doesn't it?

[anton]

Serpent
Try thinking properly and objectively about it before you write. Then shut up if you're incapable of doing so.
I read the letter and found several points with which I had a problem, I selectively addressed these. That's called argumentative analysis (quite self-explanatory I would have thought). The letter is, as someone has mentioned, on a public forum, and it's there for a reason - the poster wanted public attention and he got it. If you don't want to get public responses contact the person privately (its not that hard). But if you want to draw attention to yourself, expet some of it to be negative.

ExtraJo
1) Tampered with???
"Oh no someone approached me and asked me if I was Fu-Pow! I feel so violated and "tampered with" someone call the cops!!" :rolleyes:
2) OK Sifu Lacey approached the student and asked him whether he was Fu-Pow, I see nothing wrong with that. You accused HIM of bragging about it on this forum, rather than setansi who personally chose to make that post:
"By singling out Fu-Pow’s classmate in KL and then brat about it on this forum you have showed no respect for Sifu Mak Hin Fai as well."
Your use of the second person, demonstrates that the accusation is aimed solely at the person to whom the letter was directly addressed: Sifu Lacey.

As for the "urban myth", Dave Lacey has , to my knowledge, never claimed or tried to perpetuate the belief that that fight ever took place.

[extrajoseph]

Anton,

You are brilliant at deducing what I just said, didn't I say right at the beginning that my criticism was aimed at Sifu Dave?

If the fight never took place, then it was a myth. Was it not?

Also, I did not say Sifu Dave tried to perputuate the myth, I implied our friend bean curd did when I quoted what he said, "lets not forget also david with four others stood up for all CLF in HK".

Now can you stop tempering and keep quiet? Let us wait for Sifu Dave's reply.

JosephX

[anton]

Originally posted by extrajoseph
Anton,

You are brilliant at deducing what I just said, didn't I say right at the beginning that my criticism was aimed at Sifu Dave?


Yes you did, but you still have not explained when SIfu Lacey (not Setansi) posted on this forum, braggingly or otherwise, as you accused in your post. I'm also interested in knowing what is so offensive or dishonourable about approaching someone in public and asking him whether he is Fu-Pow.

Again - if you didn't want people to reply, you could have found other ways of contacting Sifu Lacey (not exactly a Herculean task for a person of average intelligence). But when you make shifty little word-twisting posts about someone on a public forum, it's unreasonable to expect people not to reply.

[extrajoseph]

You have got me wrong, I do want Sifu Dave to reply.

Now that you had your say, can you stop tempering (that word again)?

No offence but I prefer to hear from the General instead of you.

:D

[extrajoseph]

Members: 4,481, Threads: 17,261, Posts: 235,188
Welcome to our newest member, The General.


Monty Python:

Is it a plane?
Is it a bird?
No, it's a ....

piece of t*rd!

:D

[bean curd]

joe seph for one who is suppose to know what goes on, you are showing you know nothing.

the last fight had nothing to do with the previous ones that started in the late 50's, everyone knows the last fight never took place it is open knowledge, it was even in the HK papers, so i don't see your point in trying to make out that it was a secret .

your history debate was weak, but how you are now conducting yourself is very disgusting, i never realised you would actually stoop to such low levels of conduct

:o boring

[extrajoseph]

Just as I thought!

Yours always

Jo seph! :D

[Fu-Pow]

your history debate was weak, but how you are now conducting yourself is very disgusting, i never realised you would actually stoop to such low levels of conduct

An appeal to "morality" is a power trip.

[anton]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow


An appeal to "morality" is a power trip.

How did this thread start again?

[extrajoseph]

Can't stop tempering can you?

Just in case you can't tell the difference. This thread is not about morality, it is about good behaviour. Sifu Dave behave badly towards his peers, then hides behind his students and the safety of his own webpage. I like to hear from him out in the open and tell us why he is doing all this.

Do you mind?

Yours always,

Jo seph

[Serpent]

Small point, but it's bugging me. The word is tampering. Tempering is what you do to steel! ;)

[extrajoseph]

Oops, I was thinking of our friend bean curd, I thought he needs some tempering. Sorry it should be tampering as in tampon. :p

Why don't you guys write in Chinese instead? :D

[extrajoseph]

Hey Serpent, I thought you are not going to be sucked into this. See what spelling mistakes can do for your sanitary, it is worse than smoking! :D

[Serpent]

What it can do for my sanitary? ;) I'm not entering into the debate. I'm just here to correct some spelling!

:)

[extrajoseph]

Got you, Serpent, welcome back!

You watch, Anton will keep coming back as well. It works every time.

Hey we need your presence to give this debate a bit of counter balance and spice, besides it seems no one here is good at spelling, so you can be our honorary spellchek.

Do you want a certificate for that? You can always give it to Frank if you don't want it! :D

[illusionfist]

To the parties involved i would like to ask a few questions.

Fu Pow-

I'm pretty sure that in much of this you dont mean to offend people, but as of late, some of your statements can be considered serious and consequence-having statements. Lets look at some of them.

- First you say that you are just defending the lineage that was given to you by your sifu. This is fine, but why dont you actually include the lineage that you defend in these arguments and ask them to settle things in a better manner other than this? I'm sure they can defend themselves just fine and have actually LIVED through much of the history that has brought this situation to this current juncture. They would be in a much better situation to defend themselves in that they have experience over uncorroborated history gathering done via the net. Or it could be as simple as just asking your sifu for some history and letting him know whats going on. Very cut and dry i would say.

- You have basically called out Dave Lacey because of statements made on his website. Where is the logic in this? Why would a senior level player in CLF go and confront a junior level player? Wouldn't this be aiming his sites a little low? You wont even reveal who you are (to the parties involved and to your own sifu that you defend), so what would make anybody think that you would stand up and actually fight to begin with? Your character means more than your proper sow choi knowledge in this case.

- You have posted a bogus story on his actual upbringing in HK and have gone as far as saying he has had plastic surgery to make himself look more Chinese. So now you have gone from insulting his gung fu family to actually insulting his BLOOD family? I would say that this isn't the smartest move you have made and is a real glimpse into your character and obviously not a good display of mo duk.

JoX

-As i've been watching this whole argument unfold, youv'e switched sides so many times its unbelievable. There were two simple questions that Bean Curd asked and you had to twist it around using characters as a basis for argument, when you yourself established the precedent for which the term "Hung Sing" was used in previous discussions. So why all of a sudden do you act like your confused on the subject? Why do you just avoid the subject outright , when confronted with historical perspectives that were indicative of the time period you were basing your argument from, and just go personal and inflammatory?

An established theme has become apparent between you two in that you want to argue and be authoritative, yet you wont even talk to the higher generation parties involved, especially you JoX when you had the opportunity in Malaysia. You are a supposed 5th generation player, surely you must know about these forms of decorum. You want to remain anonymous yet you stand firmly by your convictions without standing upright and having the cajones to step up to the plate and present your views in person.

People are now bringing up mo duk and even going as far as slinging mud at other members in another thread because they themselves are now thinking that they are acting according to mo duk. Who are they to be the Mo Duk Dictators™ when they have not exhibited one iota of it since this argument began? Insults have been made towards lineage, family, etc and outright slander has been made and this is supposed to be taken lightly? Only on an internet board would this kind of crap happen.

Why has the argument strayed away from the issues at hand and has gone personal? Why has the messenger been attacked and not the message?

A simple solution presents itself in this matter and all that needs to be done is checking the ego at the door, swallowing some pride, and getting together as a FAMILY and presenting evidence in support of whichever stance is being taken.

It seems that people forget that when you speak you are speaking for your lineage- sifu, sigung, etc. Your lineage is what MADE you. This is how elder players look at one's words when they are presented to the public. Free speech is fine and dandy since this is the internet, but that doesn't mean that its proper etiquette. If we are to be true to our traditions and ancestors, this must be adhered to.

Please dont respond with mudslinging or anything of that nature. Its just hard to swallow some of the things that have been said with people trying to use personal honor and mo duk as a standpoint when the contrary of which has been shown throughout the entire process.

[Fu-Pow]

Illusionfist-

As you seem to be a person of a reasonable and fair mind I will answer your questions in the same way:



- First you say that you are just defending the lineage that was given to you by your sifu. This is fine, but why dont you actually include the lineage that you defend in these arguments and ask them to settle things in a better manner other than this? I'm sure they can defend themselves just fine and have actually LIVED through much of the history that has brought this situation to this current juncture.

The true nature of how this whole thing started has been quickly forgotten. The original "discussion" was between myself, frank and extrajoseph. It revolved around questions of the green grass monk and CLF history.

What was a discussion amongst lower profile CLF players on an internet message board quickly turned "high profile" when Dave Lacey decided to interject HIMSELF into the equation. He started attacking extrajoseph and myself from his website. Talk about Mo Duk gone bad. He claimed that I was a "Chan Family Defender" and aligned me with extrajoseph. When in fact Joseph and I had been on opposite sides of the argument.

So it is Dave Lacey who chose to embroil himself in these low level politics instead of dealing with his peers.

Then he sends his students onto the message board to fight his battle. He won't even address us himself.


- You have basically called out Dave Lacey because of statements made on his website. Where is the logic in this? Why would a senior level player in CLF go and confront a junior level player? Wouldn't this be aiming his sites a little low?

Exactly. Why does he want to attack a low level player? Where is the logic in Dave Lacey's actions? Answer: There isn't any. This isn't about logic or "truth" it's about politics and greed. There is no logic to either of those.


You wont even reveal who you are (to the parties involved and to your own sifu that you defend), so what would make anybody think that you would stand up and actually fight to begin with? Your character means more than your proper sow choi knowledge in this case.

No one here with the exception of Frank and Dave have revealed there true identities. Why doesn't k-no and bean curd reveal? It would be a very stupid mistake for me to reveal my identity at this point as I have inside information that it is the intention of Dave Lacey and Frank McCarthy to discredit me in front of my Sifu. Don't take me for a chump. An as to your appeal to "character" , character has little meaning in political activities such as these. Dave Lacey wants to play the slander game by slandering "Fu-Pow" fine....but what he doesn't realize is that on the internet we are equals and slander goes both ways. He has more to lose. Bad strategy if you ask me.



- You have posted a bogus story on his actual upbringing in HK and have gone as far as saying he has had plastic surgery to make himself look more Chinese. So now you have gone from insulting his gung fu family to actually insulting his BLOOD family? I would say that this isn't the smartest move you have made and is a real glimpse into your character and obviously not a good display of mo duk.

Is this any more outrageous than calling "Fu-Pow" a "Chan Family Defender." Or trying to cause trouble for "Fu-Pow" with his Sifu because of some internet discussion group. There was no logic behind that either. If people on this board and Dave Lacey want me to play by the rules of logic and Mo Duk then I simply ask that they do same. They don't, so I don't. They do, then I do. It's as simple as that.

There is an expression : "All is fair in love and war."

If these guys want to try to hit below the belt, then I will too.

It's up to them. These guys stepped outside the rules of Mo Duk a long time ago.

[Fu-Pow]

Illusionfist-

I might also add that for a long time I tried to withdraw myself from the arguing but Dave Lacey continues to draw me back into it. I can't just idly sit by and have him destroy the reputation of my internet identity,now can I?

Why does a "high level" player like himself want to hash it out with us on the internet? I dont' understand his reasoning other than to use us as scapegoats for some hidden political purpose.

[iron_silk]

Fu-Pow I thought you did step out of this arena of craziness! I kind of admired you about that.

What did Lacey do you to you recently that drew you back in?

[extrajoseph]

Since Fu-Pow's answers also addressed most of your concerns about me, I will leave the issues as they stand. I chose not to confront Dave in KL because it was not the right time nor the right place to do so. For his behavior, he will answer to the elders when the time comes.

I would also like to point out I did tried on many occassions to hold my tongue and asked others to do so, but no one seem to be interested in peace, so here we are, still calling each other names. I have been taught never to fight in a straight line, always twist and turn.

JoX

[Fu-Pow]

Fu-Pow I thought you did step out of this arena of craziness! I kind of admired you about that.

Two thing really:

1) He insists on quoting me on his website and continues to call me the "Chan Family" defender and a "traitor to Hung Sing." Do you guys really have any idea how offensive that is? Is that really behavior becoming of a Sifu? Maybe I will bring this issue up with my Sifu and he and Dave can have a chat about it when they go to Tat Mau's tournament.

2) One of his student let slide that he was "looking" for me in Malaysia when my Sifu was recently there. He even went so far as to accuse one of my classmates of being Fu-Pow. It is obvious to me that his intent is to identify me and cause discord between me and my Sifu. What other point would there be to identifying me?

Hope that answers your questions.

[extrajoseph]

Where are you? Stop hiding behind your students' computers and come out to face your critics, you wanna be yellow black panther!

:p :D :rolleyes: