Scenario Based Training?

[Ford Prefect]

Reading that "learn how to fight" thread got me thinking. Do any of you do any actual scenario-based training?

[LEGEND]

I actually tried that with a couple of training partners but we all ended up cracking up! It's hard to do it with FRIENDs. The best way was to watch on video REALFIGHTs and see the interaction and so forth. Eventually putting yourself in that situation. Close your eyes and imagine the focal point...or put yourself in a verbal altercation in the past. I noticed that I only thought of one attack..rear cross instead of using boxing combinations. The emotional adrenalin rush is UNREAL. I have not figure out a way to deal with the ONE HIT ONE STRIKE MENTALITY. I can spar and use combination striking but when it comes to dealing with the REAL FIGHT scenario...I'm thinking I want to HIT THE MOFO and KO his arse...instead of thinking...I want to HIT THE MOFO many times and KO his arse.

[Ford Prefect]

I agree that it is really hard to do with friends. On a few occasions, we've resorted to bull rushing the victim and trying to take his head off. The attacker was all padded and gloved up. I've also been to a couple a "mugging" two-night selfdefense courses. I didn't pay much attention to the teaching and just went there to try stuff in the scenario training. It was quite educational since I haven't gotten into a real scrap since I started training seriously 4 years ago.

[Ryu]

Adrenaline Response training.

While you can occasionally get the "giggles" with friends, being serious about the training is really not that hard to do if you are sincere about it, have a good ability to envoke a response from your partner, etc.

Training adrenaline dumps with friends can be done successfully (most of the time since close friends know what it is that really sets you off anyway.)

There are a few things you can do to train the adrenal response correctly.

The sucker punch drill.
This is a full contact drill. No pulled punches. If you don't do it right... you get hit...hard. Have both you and your partner put on gloves and protective helmets (sparring headgear with face shields are best). Don't look at each other at first. Just get a feel for what is about to happen. One of you will violently go up to the other and push him (HARD) on the chest, knocking him back. You can swear, use profanity, etc. The aggressor will get nose to nose with the "victim" and intimidate with speech, etc.
(One can and should have a set "script" in his mind of why he is angry, what he's going to do to the victim, etc.)
The victim has to at first verbally defuse the situation. This means he has to be aware of what is being said, be aware of the aggressor's body language, and be aware of where he himself is moving.
The aggressor will do one of two things in this drill. He will either back down, and walk off .......... or suddenly launch a hard sucker punch at the defender's head, stomach, etc.
The Defender has NO idea which choice his partner will choose. This in itself makes your butterflies start moving. You'll notice that in the beginning you'll jerk and flinch at the slightest movements of your Attacker.
You can make this even harder and more realistic with the Attacker trying to make the defender think he will not strike, and of course striking out of nowhere.

Element of Surprise.
Trick each other. When you are working out, and doing scenarios, excuse yourself to go to the bathroom, drink water, etc. Then come through a back door, or from behind your partner, and attack from there. Make it real. Don't hurt each other, but make that adrenaline come. Adrenaline comes from the unexpected. And when your body is forced to suddenly move and perform when all was thought to be relaxed.

I've even used scary masks before as well. Don't let your partner know you have it. Have him close his eyes and think he will just start the scenario drilling when he feels the push, etc.
Put the Halloween mask on without him seeing or expecting it, and push him hard to make him open his eyes. Then attack immediately when all he sees is the grotesque appearance.

There's lots you can do, and you have to use your imagination too. You and your partner will get used to each other's "tricks".
Plus different things will work for different people. And most important of all.... you have to be careful and considerate with this type of training.
If someone is not used to adrenaline dump training, or doesn't know you well, you can seriously scare them, traumatize them, etc.
Forcing someone to do this type of training against their will, is never a good thing.

Ryu

[Ryu]

Originally posted by LEGEND
I actually tried that with a couple of training partners but we all ended up cracking up! It's hard to do it with FRIENDs. The best way was to watch on video REALFIGHTs and see the interaction and so forth. Eventually putting yourself in that situation. Close your eyes and imagine the focal point...or put yourself in a verbal altercation in the past. I noticed that I only thought of one attack..rear cross instead of using boxing combinations. The emotional adrenalin rush is UNREAL. I have not figure out a way to deal with the ONE HIT ONE STRIKE MENTALITY. I can spar and use combination striking but when it comes to dealing with the REAL FIGHT scenario...I'm thinking I want to HIT THE MOFO and KO his arse...instead of thinking...I want to HIT THE MOFO many times and KO his arse.

LEGEND,
This just takes practice and experience in the drilling.
One of the things you can do is visualize those types of things while you're in front of a heavy bag, etc. Then focus on hitting first with a power strike and immediately following up with boxing combinations.
The last thing you want to do is just hit once. The pre-emptive strike will only be an advantage if you keep the pressure on. You've got to literally shower him with shots.
But be careful of gasing out after just a minute...
You'll never know how long of a fight you'll be in for. So strike hard and fast, but don't let all your energy reserves fly out the window...

I'd recommend buying one of those century BOB manaquin bags. It's a great training device that can be used for first strike and combo application, close range tactics, ground and pound, etc.

Ryu

[rogue]

Even scenerio training can lead to a false sense of confidence. There are ways to train reflexes and stress without using "reality" based training. You can't train for everything.

[Ryu]

That's true, Rogue, but people are constantly learning and evolving more, and should strive to put as much realism in their training as possible. Simply training for "stress and reflexes" isn't going to do a whole lot unless your brain and adrenaline are trained to understand the process of the dump, experience it first hand, work through it, etc.
You do need "reality" scenario training to be (at least in my opinion) a "complete" martial artist. And even that word is used too loosely, since martial arts are not stagnant, and really shouldn't ever be "complete" as we think of the word. Always have to keep moving forward. Keep evolving.

Ryu

[taijiquan_student]

This weekend me and some of my classmates and my teacher will be doing one of these adrenaline response training seminars. It's called "Fast Defense" (fastdefense.com), if anyone has ever heard of it. I don't know if it's supposed to be any good, or if it's really commercial and namby-pamby. We'll see.

If its interesting or there is anything worth posting (I hope there will be), I'll post what I thought of it. I'm expecting to either get totally killed and be really unprepared for the whole adrenaline dump thing, or not be able to stop laughing at the guy with the giant head. (the attackers wear big suits with a giant head, and yell at you).

I think I'm kind of underestimating the seminar. I hear a lot about the adrenaline dump from their website, but I don't think I've ever experienced it before, even in full contact sanshou with just a mouthpiece (and clothes) where I could easily get my face smashed in by someone twice my size. Maybe the yelling and getting in your face changes things? Sounds like it'll be good training, though.

[ewallace]

Am I making stuff up or did Ryu once say he really liked "hitting the big head"?

[Ryu]

I DON'T like the big head. I feel it's unrealistic to train with an opponent whos head is 5 feet wide...

I mentioned that the "adrenaline response" must be real, and the drill can't become "silly or fun".
And it sometimes can be "fun to hit the big head." :)

When it should be just the opposite.

Post the results of the seminar.

Ryu

[ewallace]

I feel it's unrealistic to train with an opponent whos head is 5 feet wide

Come down a little ****her south.

You think it's "fun" to hit the big head. Big difference :)

[rogue]

Still one of the best discussions on the subject. (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=12330) Good points by Darren, Scott and Kit to mention a few. While I think that scenario-based training is important it doesn't mean that you'll automatically overcome adrenal response by doing it. I think that many scenario-based training seminars that pass themselves off as teaching a person to control AR aren't. Not to say that what they are teaching isn't worthwhile it's just not what's advertised.

[dnc101]

rogue, I went to your link and, after reading it, I have nothing to say on the topic. Those are pros, and they about cover it all. Good link! Required reading, guys!

[LEGEND]

taijiquan_student

yah I've seen this training. We have tried to similate it a couple times at my old school. Was interesting. I think the hardest part during verbal altercation is do U want to escalate or descalate the situation. I think it's valuable that you should have a game plan during the verbal altercation stage. It's inevitable that going out u'll experience this and u should have a set decision on what to do! I made up my mind a few months back after talking to an JKD instructor that I would no longer PUNK OUT to anyone...no matter how afraid I am...happen several months ago...but I was at VIP CLUB parking lot waiting for my car with several friends when some spanish guy try to provoke me with a racist comment...I then got face to face and said make a move...he said he would box me...I said let's see your boxing rite now...at which point he just stood there...I could see that he didn't want a fight...he was trying to impress his girl and his other friend by acting funny. At which point he PUNK OUT. If not then we fight and best man wins.

[taijiquan_student]

Fast Defense seminar...

Due to situations beyond my control, I unfortunately couldn't go to the seminar, but some of my classmates and my teacher still went. They said that it was good, and all my classmates got an adrenaline response at at least one point, though they didn't really freak out and could still function alright.

They did drills where you would be up against the wall with your eyes closed, and the "bulletman"(the guy in the suit with the big head) would grab you in some random way. They would also have drills where you would stand with your eyes closed, and the "bulletman" would come up behind you and bear-hug you or grab you and pull you or something along those lines. They also did lots of stuff where the guy would get in your face and yell at you, and you would have to verbally de-escalate the situation.

Though it wasn't completely realistic, and I think the stuff Ryu does is more intense, my classmates said that one of the best things to come out of the experience was the degree of unpredictability that doesn't come with sparring. You feel different with your hands down and someone coming up behind you, or with someone yelling in your face, even if you know it's just a drill. Squaring off and sparring someone, no matter how rough it is and how scared you might get while sparring, feels a little different.

One cool thing is that they said my teacher was the only person they've ever had who they didn't get an "adrenal dump" out of. I wish I had been there, 'cause it sounded like fun, even though I get the sense that it was more beneficial to the untrained women there and those with no training at all, than my teacher and classmates.

Just thought I'd post the reactions to the seminar.
:)