western boxing and kungfu

[Ging Mo Fighter]

hey

I study a great martial art, its a southern praying mantis form.

Anyway, onto the topic..

We learn a few types of strikes, but we dont learn a traditional closed fist (western) jab, hook, uppercut etc.. style of punch

i feel that my style of kungfu might be limited because of this?

could an advanced kungfu practitioner give me some advice on this matter.

ive read a few books about boxing as a martial art, and some of bruce lee's line of books, and the jab, hook, uppercut.. etc. look like excellent attacks.

We dont learn them because we are taught that hitting the hard surface of an opponents body (Such as the head) with a hard fist, can be dangerous to our hand. so we use a palm strike to hard areas, and a pheonix fist to soft areas (kungfu fist with nuckle sticking out at the top)


thanks for the feedback guys
(p.s. i cant see myself giving up my need to throw a jab, hook or uppercut in the right circumstance) then again its good to know how to fight if your nuckles are busted up

:)

[Water Dragon]

Southern Mantis scares me. It really is good stuff. I do know that the Phoenix Eye can attack hard parts of the body (and it hurts -- a lot.)

[Stacey]

yeah, poke someone with a phoenex eye in the ribs sometime. Even dropping your fist into them will make them move.

That is the basics. Get good at those...do some boxing.

[Tainan Mantis]

I have hurt my hand hitting heads quite a few times.
I have never hit a bowling ball, but someone said that it is like hittng someoe's head.

In NPM we also have emphasis on using other parts of the body besides the fist to hit his head, so I think it is right to say that "Boxin' Style" with no gloves will mess up your hands.

[Nevermind]

Anyone remember Tyson's street fight with Mitch "Blood" Green? Tyson broke his hand punching the guy. So yeah, there is a reason for those padded gloves. I say if you are going to hit with your fist (which I do also advocate in addition to palm strikes) it is necessary to do some sort of hand conditioning such as iron palm or makiwara training. This won't necessarily guarantee that you won't break your hand but it will decrease the risk of injury. Just a thought.

[yenhoi]

Jab, hook, and uppercut are not always applied vs opponents head. Boxers hit each other alot in the body. Im sure your system has something resembling these strikes, if not to the head, then to the body or even lower. Maybe not a jab, but I be I could find a jab somewhere in your system too, if not then some sort of floating lead hand thingie.

jab - floating lead hand thingie.

hook - angled attack from the flank.

uppercut - linear attack from below.

shovelhook - inbetween hook and uppercut.

overhand right - linear cross thingie that slips up and over your guard.

Im sure you have them all.

[Former castleva]

"We dont learn them because we are taught that hitting the hard surface of an opponents body (Such as the head) with a hard fist, can be dangerous to our hand. so we use a palm strike to hard areas, and a pheonix fist to soft areas (kungfu fist with nuckle sticking out at the top)"

Hard surfaces generally speaking are a NO-NO.
And yes,boxers break their hands frequently even though they use gloves.However,trough proper,tough training and proper mechanics you will do well with a fist too,just don´t hit strength with strength but rather strength with weakness.
Proper closed fist strike to tip of jaw or nose as an example is less likely to hurt you if you do it right and don´t just go for random areas which may very well be too hard for a strike.
Right tool for right target.

[LEGEND]

I no longer punch to the head as a I use to! I found out when I use to box with 16 oz gloves that my hand hurt like crazy!!! Not only have boxers broken their hand in the ring but many MMA have done so in tourneys and in their ring fights...Ken Shamrock, Tank Abbot, and many many others. I now use palm strikes and grappling ground fighting. **** I wish I had wolverine skeletal system!!!

[Rolling Elbow]

How can your system not include such basic hits? First of all, phoenix fist is fine but you need the strength to apply it. Many times i have had my own knuckles cave in when i meet a big solid guy..it takes mucho conditioning friends. Secondly, look to the way in whcih you can apply what it is you have been taught..whenre you would use an open hand or a phoenix fist..you cn also use your fist! Many systems don't advertise these because in its simplest form, making a fist is soo natural physically speaking, that you should be able to use it where you want whenever you want.

finally, I think studying boxing actually allows the martial artist to use his./hwer hand skills better. They get used to distancing and a variety of hits that they might face during a street fight. Arts like Wing Chun or southern mantis would be foolish not to explore this area so i think you are on the right path!

[Dedication]

Condition your knuckles, i can hit people in the head just fine after about a year of knuckle conditioning. Open palm strikes in my opinion hurt alot more then a closed fist anyways, the palm is very hard and covers a large area. Once a kid took a cheap shot at me in the balls, but when i got up, i used a palm strike right into his chest and put him over a couch (people said it sounded like thunder) had i used a fist , i dont think it would have been as effective.

[TaoBoy]

The mechanics of a strike in SPM are very different to those of the western boxer. This is the reason we do not practice such 'basic' strikes as Rolling Elbow termed them.

That said, I believe it is worthwhile to study the mechanics of the boxing strikes. If nothing else this gives a practitioner of another art an understanding of their opponent's weapons.

I study both SPM and shootfighting (incorporates standard boxing strikes) and have found that SPM is far more efficient and harder to defend. That said, I admire boxing-style striking when it is applied intelligently.

GMF - I say stick with your chosen style until you have a good basis. Then explore the world of boxing. This will make you a well-rounded martial artist. If you try to combine the two in the early stages of your training you may get the body mechanics of the strikes confused.

[Rolling Elbow]

I agree with dedication

You should be hitting a punching bag or padded mook jong without any gloves to devellop the strentgh in your wrists and some density to your knuckles. I am not talking overkill, but conditioning the knuckles to a certain extent is still very important. Fists for example, are more useful to MORE parts of the body then say a palm would be.. (meaning, more areas where you can inflict a higher percentage of pain unless you have incredible CHI lol) ..that is my opinion. Palms are Very effective too as are elbows, but never limit yourself from the onset by saying i won't use suh and such a weapon cause it will get hurt. Imagine if you got your palms slashed by a knife, closing would help keep dirt out and using them to strike while open would cause such pain!..just another thought. Finally, if you punch incorrectly (haymakers and wild flailing UFC style) you'll likely hurt somehting cause you've had no control over the weapon being used.

[Lowlynobody]

Do regular iron palm or whatever your type of hand conditioning is and regular grip and finger strength exercises such as claw bag, claw logs and finger pushups. This will see your hand not break and your phoenix-eye fist stay tight and strong no matter what you hit.

[TaoBoy]

Agreed Rolling Elbow - specific tools for specific targets.

I believe palms are a very effective weapon and too often overlooked by martial artists. A good old pak sau is a good way to end any encounter.

[[Censored]]

could an advanced kungfu practitioner give me some advice on this matter.

HAHA, maybe, but not on KFO. ;)

we dont learn a traditional closed fist (western) jab, hook, uppercut etc.. style of punch...i feel that my style of kungfu might be limited because of this?

If you can end a fight with movements you already know, then need you add more?

ive read a few books about boxing as a martial art, and some of bruce lee's line of books, and the jab, hook, uppercut.. etc. look like excellent attacks.

Bruce Lee advocated learning a small number of techniques, inside and out, and drilling them to perfection. Quality not quantity. Whether he had a good idea, I don't know.

[fiercest tiger]

What type of phoenix eye fist strike we talking about to hit the face etc? I have used it and cut open the eye of people and check bone and didnt feel a thing.

remember SPM and short range systems work on GING short power not external force like lunge punch, but phoenix eyes can be flicked out fast to cut and tear the skin around the cheek and eyes, and temple.

my thoughts!
FT:D

[TaoBoy]

Well put FT!

[fiercest tiger]

I may mention to use a cutting forearm or slicing action across the face you wont hurt your hands at all, plus when u slice and then use a hooking elbow that will whip into and tear the flesh or break the nose etc.

Tao Boy

I saw the blitz magazine article:


FT

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
Tao Boy

I saw the blitz magazine article:

FT

What did you think?
Was it the most recent article (regarding energy)?

Adam.

[Ging Mo Fighter]

we do heaps of hand and finger conditioning

ive got a boxing bag at home so i still practise the old 1-2
left right (without gloves)

[sing fu]

Can I ask about the hand/forearm conditioning everyone is doing? For hands I do palm, fist, claw, panther fist, back-of-the-hand pushups, and for forearms go crazy with the chopsticks, and some dynamic stretches for the sinues. What do you guys recommend?

TaoBoy,

Any chance of those articles being posted on your website? I'm suprised Blitz is still operating - AFA, Impact etc folded, but are there any new mags on the scene in Oz at the moment?

SF

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by sing fu
Can I ask about the hand/forearm conditioning everyone is doing? For hands I do palm, fist, claw, panther fist, back-of-the-hand pushups, and for forearms go crazy with the chopsticks, and some dynamic stretches for the sinues. What do you guys recommend?


We do dynamic tension and hard qigong to strenghten the forearms and also we have a two-person conditioning set (basically making contact to the forearms to condition them).


TaoBoy,

Any chance of those articles being posted on your website? I'm suprised Blitz is still operating - AFA, Impact etc folded, but are there any new mags on the scene in Oz at the moment?

SF

Blitz is actually doing really well.

The two articles I have written are on my kung fu school site (url in signature). Go to Library->Articles.

[sing fu]

Thanks for those! I'm reading your article about the guard at the moment - very clear and explicit! I was wondering if their might be any online SPM pages showing the possible guards (checked http://www.melbkungfu.com/pages/library_05.htm for the two guards and sequences!) ?

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by sing fu
Thanks for those! I'm reading your article about the guard at the moment - very clear and explicit! I was wondering if their might be any online SPM pages showing the possible guards (checked http://www.melbkungfu.com/pages/library_05.htm for the two guards and sequences!) ?

Check Library -> Technique Workshop

[fiercest tiger]

Adam,

Yes, enjoyed the article alittle confused with a technique though, i dont know if your sifu is doing an crane beak pinch type or is it a tiger claw?!

Sing fu roller bar filled with ball bearing roll along your forerms for the transfer of ging and speed training.

FT:)

[Lowlynobody]

Just read the article you printed off for me. Its very good and the last bit on conditioning is close to what some of this thread is about, strangely enough.

[fiercest tiger]

yeah the article seems ok, next issue will be iron palm.:)

anyway see ya sunday!

FT