View Full Version : Bak Fu Pai for real

06-29-2000, 06:13 AM
Is there anyone around who studies real Bak Fu Pai or is just interested in talking about Bak Fu Pai and other styles? I have studied Bak Fu Pai for about 6 years and I was just wondering if I had any brothers or sisters on this forum.

06-29-2000, 08:18 AM
Where do you study this system that our friend "word" claims is fake? The X-Admin of this forum says it's just "thinly disguised Bak Mei". They(southern Admin aka Hagood's Jook Lum) also claim the Head of the Pai is a fraud and made the whole thing up. There's this Lacy clown that goes around claiming to be the only source of authentic kung fu, trying to embarrass and claim other systems with all this silly "5-Elders" stuff. The majority of internet sites are kind of silly... What was your question again?

06-29-2000, 09:38 PM

Yes, REAL Bak Fu Pai is very hard to find.

[This message has been edited by kung_fool (edited 07-04-2000).]

06-29-2000, 09:40 PM

Good to hear from you! Who is your teacher and where do you study?

06-29-2000, 11:30 PM
Hi kung_fool,

Who is your teacher and where do you train?

Where did you hear/learn that Bak Mei and Fung Doe Duk studied together for decades? I'm more curious about the length of time rather than the content. I've heard similar stories, but I hadn't heard that they trained together for such a long period of time.

Also, I agree with you about your comments on bak fu pai. There are only a small number of people that have trained for more than five years in bak fu pai. I'm curious to hear who bak fu choy has studied with.

In regards to MoQ, he's being sarcastic.

Here's my school: www.bakfupai.com (http://www.bakfupai.com)


06-30-2000, 12:30 AM

My first experience with Bak Fu Pai was subsequent to my relocation to San Diego in early '97. I lived in San Diego for that year and trained with Sifu Joel Rizzo. Unfortunately, I moved from the area in early '98 and have not been back. Last year I was living in Dallas, and found out about Sifu Peppers who lives in Austin, I then had the opportunity to train with him once, but, then I moved again.

As for Bak Mei and Fung Doe Duk, according to the legends in both systems, they were training brothers while at the Shaolin Temple, their training at this temple lasted for a period of about ten years (or so I have heard) then they both relocated to Emei (Ngor Mei) Mt where, according to the White Eyebrow tape I have from Master Man Kwong Fong, Bak Mei spent the next 20-30 years living in this region refining his art. This would suggest that both men spent the last few decades of their lives living together, and, I can only assume, training together, I certainly think that would account for any similarities in the two systems.

Talk to you later.

06-30-2000, 02:19 AM
Sarcastic? ME???

I just said "Where do you study this System?"

The Pai has not retained itself for over 350 yrs. by talking on public forums. Email is better if you care to try that.

A list of enemies or shadow of doubt may just force a person to make a stand.

A Pai's Legend is not really intended to be taken as historical fact.
Cross referenced stories are more a product of the weakness than strength.
There are those adding popular belief to their histories at this very moment.
The more people write, the less you can believe what you read.

06-30-2000, 02:37 AM

I'm a student of Sifu Joel Rizzo. Let's chat. Send me e-mail at wuseng@yahoo.com


06-30-2000, 02:50 AM
Just cleaning up some of my mess... /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

[This message has been edited by kung_fool (edited 07-04-2000).]

06-30-2000, 03:28 AM
So, who are these handful of people that can teach the system may I ask?

[This message has been edited by MoQ (edited 06-30-2000).]

06-30-2000, 03:54 AM

Well to be honest, the number probably does not fill an actual hand. I know of three:
1) Sifu Joel Rizzo
2) Sifu Tom Rizzo (I have never met or trained with Sifu Tom)
3) Sifu Vince Peppers.
These are the only instructors that I know of who are openly teaching the system, that is not to say that there are not others. If anyone knows of another Bak Fu Pai Sifu please post. If I have left anyone's name off it is due to ignorance, not disrespect.

ps-Something tells me that there are probably more legitimate instructors...

[This message has been edited by kung_fool (edited 07-04-2000).]

06-30-2000, 11:38 AM

[This message has been edited by qy (edited 07-01-2000).]

07-01-2000, 04:20 PM
So what became of the original poster?

Kung Fool:
Lacy's gone "independent" to save his butt from a lawsuit.
Your words are copious far beyond your experience and come across as rather rude. Defending the System is not achieved by way of self-serving defensiveness.

[This message has been edited by Fubokuen (edited 07-02-2000).]

07-01-2000, 08:12 PM

Rude? Me? Maybe...
It's this **** internet contraption, something about being rather anonymous makes one say/write things they'd never dream of saying/writing otherwise.

[This message has been edited by kung_fool (edited 07-04-2000).]

07-01-2000, 08:58 PM

Put yourself in my place if you would, for a moment. Suppose it was the art that you had studied for the last three years which was now being called into question. I concede that I was perhaps a bit overzealous in my "self-serving defensiveness", however, can you honestly claim that if your system were questioned in a similar fashion that you would have defended it with humility, and politeness, while maintaining nothing but the utmost of decorum? Can you? Or would you have defended it at all? Perhaps you do not love your chosen style as much as I do my own, or, perhaps you are simply a much better person than myself, with a far greater well of emotional maturity from which to draw. Since I do not know you, I am willing to concede the latter. Perhaps I too will one day reach a level of consciousness which allows me to speak in less haste and with the most polite of tongues. But, unfortunately, I am not there yet.
Just out of curiosity, what style do you study?


07-01-2000, 09:15 PM

I sincerely apologize for anything I said which may have offended you. If you have any questions about this system, please let me know and I will do my best to answer them, and, if I cannot answer them, I will attempt to put you in contact with someone who can. Please do not ask me to defend or even explain the actions of Jim Lacy, I do not know the man. Please do not ask me to prove the authenticity of this system, that I cannot do. It is my belief that it would be impossible to prove the authenticity of any system which claims a monastic origin and a link to the remote past such as this one. At most, we can probably prove the last two, maybe three generations but beyond that all of our efforts would be futile, at least, that is my opinion.


07-02-2000, 02:58 AM
Hint: My original post was merely a list of the poop that was thrown the last time BFP was mentioned on this Forum.

During that Reign of Fascism, my defensive posts disappeared like water drops on a hot griddle.

I'm extremely surprised that you don't recognize the term Mo Kiu, or the righteous indignation on the Lacy issue...

[This message has been edited by MoQ (edited 07-05-2000).]

07-02-2000, 03:30 AM

[This message has been edited by kung_fool (edited 07-04-2000).]

07-02-2000, 04:55 AM

[This message has been edited by MoQ (edited 07-03-2000).]

07-03-2000, 09:10 AM
MoQ you are mistaken about all of your Bak Fu Pai comments. That is o.k. even though Bak Fu Pai is closely related to Pak Mei it is actually quite different. Jim Lacy is in no way a fraud. His iron palm has been talked about in the same sentences as Ku Yu Cheong, Wai Hong, Pui Chan, and many others. I will soon tell the entire story of Bak Fu Pai, and all of its lineage including Hung Ling Pai sifu Joel Rizzo's story. Talk to all of you soon, I have been busy with a tournament.

07-03-2000, 10:00 AM
Oh I simply can't wait...

07-04-2000, 04:49 AM
First off I want to say hello to Kung F and J. MoQ you are definetly mistaken about Bak Fu Pai. Fuboken you are definetly mistaken about Jim Lacy. So first I will talk about Bak Fu Pai. Bak Fu Pai was created by Fung Do Duk. Fung Doe Duk's White Tiger System had many other roots with the other systems he was around at the time the Manchu's invaded Fukien Shaolin. I am not going to divulge into too much history because I am sure you all ready know, right??? The main systems that Fung Doe Duk was around at the time was in fact Pak Mei Dao Yin's system. Others that Fung Doe Duk was surrounded by included Mew Hing, founder of (Sup Bat Mo Jung Pai Kung Fu, and Hung Lin Pai Kung Fu.) Also possibly 5 shape boxing. Gee Shim Shin Shee reworked the original Fukien Shaolin style that was in actuality the formation of the Hung Gar style. Since Fung Doe Duk was the head abbot of Fukien and Pak Mei was his best friend since childhood, they would have known the entire martial knowledge at Fukien. After the Manchu Slaughter. They all split up and Fung Doe Duk and Pak Mei went to e'mei where the Taoist arts were with Kwong Wai. Since Taoism was not banned during the Ching Dynasty, Fung Doe Duk and Pak Mei shed their shaolin robes. The story goes on and on until Fung Doe Duk spends the last twenty years of his life with Doo Wai's ancestor Doo Tin Yuen. This is where the Doo lineage started from father to son until Doo Wai came over to America.
As for Jim Lacy his is as real as it gets because he and Vince Peppers went the old school way with Grandmaster Doo Wai. His break of course made Doo loose face so it makes Doo mad that Jim Lacy is trying to make a fortune off of his art which he is. This is because Jung Shee Doo Wai thinks like a Chinese person and Jim Lacy thinks like an American person. That is just how it is and just how it is going to be because of their own family lineage. As for other instructors that are very competent in Bak Fu Pai they include Joel Rizzo, Max Gerber, Parker Linekien, Tommy Turcotte who was a former Wah Lum disciple, Rich Robson, and a few others. Anyways talk to all of you again soon.

07-04-2000, 04:49 AM

Welcome back! We were wondering where you had run off to.
You are one of Sifu Rizzo's students? How long have you been studying?


07-04-2000, 04:52 AM
kung fool I am not one of Sifu Rizzo's students but he is a very good Sifu. I will talk to you all about that tomorrow. I am busy with 4 of July but I will be on this forum at least once a day, I have just been out of town.

White Tiger Fist

07-04-2000, 06:15 AM

Greetings and good to hear from you!
The history of Bak Fu Pai that you have presented here is pretty much identical to what I have heard. As for Lacy, like I've said before, I've never met the man, and I do not know what led to any sort of strife between he and GM Doo Wai. However, I do know that as a practicioner of this system, I have a loyalty to GM Doo Wai, this is his family system, right? We are indebted to him. He calls the shots, so to speak. You can read into that what you will, I don't want to get into the middle of a war or anything, I think you all know what I am getting at, without me having to say it...
Who is this Max Gerber guy that you mention?


07-04-2000, 07:27 AM
Great to hear from you Kung F. I agree that all Bak Fu Pai practitioners should pay respect to Grandmaster Doo Wai and his lineage. That is in fact how it is supposed to be according to the old ways of the east. The Bai Shee ceremony should be an honor, but unfortunately in Jung Shee Doo's case, his closed-door disciples all left him. But in another sense, some of the Bai Shees didn't abandon Jung Shee Doo. Max Gerber still studies with him every chance he gets. Joel Rizzo is a Jung Shee in his own right for the Hung Ling Pai or Red Lotus System. Jim Lacy is the inheritor of the 18 Daoist Palms System (Sup Bat Mo Jung Pai). Sifu Vincent Peppers is probably the most knowledgeable.

07-04-2000, 07:40 AM
Max Gerber? isn't he the White Lotus guy? Well I saw a picture once and he's not too hard to look at either.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

sorry could not resist.......

[This message has been edited by qy (edited 07-05-2000).]

07-04-2000, 11:34 PM
Jim Lacy is the only one who would name himself along with those greats. So if you are with Lacy, why are you claiming Bak Fu Pai? I thought he had changed everything to avoid the Law.

Not only is he not Bak Fu Pai, his Panther tapes contain no gung fu whatsoever.

This IS America and the foundation is one of NO RESPECT, but you gotta do more that abscond with some bootleg videos.

07-06-2000, 07:04 PM
Fubokuen. You have been told the usual, I am not sure if it is the usual tale of Jim Lacy stealing tapes, making the tapes for a friend of his that was in the navy and keeping them, dealing drugs on Jung Shee Doo's streetcorner, or whatever. The truth is that Doo made many many tapes from the mid to late 80s. I do not believe in Jim Lacy's system of doing things because they totally go against tradition. I was just saying that he is acting like an american would act by turning his inheritance into a business. I am a very strict traditionalist. I am not with Lacy I have just studied with him therefore I have first hand knowledge of his competence as an instructor, you do not know unless you see. I studied with him and with Jung Shee Doo Wai. Lacy was born in the year of the tiger and he acts just like one. But the tigers dies young, unable to transform, right!!

White Tiger Fist

07-07-2000, 12:59 AM
I have been told "the usual stories"? Where do these come from?
If you "studied" with Lacy, you must've asked no questions because he has no answers. His lack of familiarity with his "inheritance" is mindboggling. It is obvious to anyone that those videos were not intended for him and do not belong in his possession. He knows no traditional terminology/proper names for the movements or principles and most of what he says is fabricated. Everything he's gotten from the tapes are HEAVILY modified to the point of being unrecognizable. His Panther tapes contain no kung fu, much less Bak Fu Pai. Obviously he was never a student of Doo Wai and he's not that good at kempo either. I am surprised that you cannot tell the difference and I'm shocked that the Grandmaster would even speak to you if you mentioned Lacy. He is Pai enemy #1 and it is sad that his crimes against the system are considered merely, "American"...

If you sought out Doo Wai when you were a student of Lacy, either the businessman ripped you off in some way, or you are no traditionalist.

[This message has been edited by Fubokuen (edited 07-07-2000).]

07-09-2000, 08:03 PM
Fubokuen. What are you wanting me to say. Are you wanting me to say, yes Fubokuen you are right. I have never been a disciple of Lacy. I said I studied with him, not under him, meaning I studied with him and Jung Shee Doo at the same time, we were both under Jung Shee Doo. As far as the stories they come from both sides. Lacy has his story and Jung Shee Doo has his, of course they are going to differ, that is the reason it all is a big problem. Oh by the way I have already heard the kenpo deal, don't you think that is a little played out. Lacy studied with the Tracy's a while ago and you can't take that from him whether he is good at kenpo or not. As for you witnessing Jung Shee Doo on videotape I want to ask you, What form was he doing? The Panther series is totally beside the point because of Lacy's disposition at the time. Make no mistake the Ba Ting Gum form on the first series is a common from the Bak Fu Pai that still remains in China. In his dim mak series he offers two shaolin meds and forms and two daoist immortals meds with one form ( he left the second out). These forms are totally real, I have had Jung Shee Doo correct me on them before. Don't get caught up in all that you are trying to say. I am 100% on Jung Shee Doo's side and always have been. If you want me to get to the bare fact about Jim Lacy I will. His iron palm is great and that is all he has going for him. He can't do much else than that. He can however accomplish the level 3 coconut break. I have been standing beside Jung Shee Doo watching Lacy crack the coconut on the string. However I have never seen Lacy finish the dragon of the ocean fist form. I am curious Fubokuen just what Bak Fu Pai you know. I would be delighted to hear about this. Lets keep these conversations at a low tolerance of name calling. I am a traditionalist, looking out for Jung Shee Doo.

07-09-2000, 08:52 PM
Well, I'm mostly satisfied with your assessment:
"If you want me to get to the bare fact about Jim Lacy I will. His iron palm is great and that is all he has going for him. He can't do much else than that."

Lacy's "versions" are not Bak Fu Pai.
It's all heavily modified to the point of being unrecognizable. They bear no resemblance whatsoever to Doo's version!

THIS is the kempo connection, THE ATTITUDE that all gung fu techniques can be boiled down to mechanical "blocks" and strikes and made an American product while still retaining some level of exotic value.

[This message has been edited by Fubokuen (edited 07-11-2000).]

Shaolin Master
01-29-2001, 03:45 AM
Found It, It was here somewhere :)

01-29-2001, 04:22 AM
Um...what exactly do you think you've found???

Let me tell you what I've found:
I've found your claims of being a "Chan Buddhist" to be riddled with hypocrisy, you are the only "Buddhist" I know to ever direct rape/murder fantasies at another person on this forum.
I've found that ALL of your "extensive" knowledge of Kung Fu can be traced to books available now.
I've found you to be the most fragile, shallow, and attention starved individual on this forum. Instead of detached from the world, you are so **** obsessed with being gawked at by complete strangers that you concoct multiple personalities to play out your little games and bolster your silly claims.
There are no "BFP sites" which claim an 18 daoist palms, you have been told this in the past. In the future, when you need to be set straight on matters that you know nothing about, I'll try and stick solely with monosyllabics.
You should be humble, modest, low key and VERY thankful that you're still allowed to use your ego stroking handle and post on this forum....you know, qualities that would suit a true Buddhist, but I don't know why I would expect such attributes from you.
:) :) :) :) :)

01-29-2001, 06:42 PM
ShaolinMaster/KungFuLegend/Dreamlover- This is TOO FUNNY! Where did you get this??? I looked for the posts of this PATHOLOGICAL LIAR bakfuchoy(everything is completely fabricated), but thought they were gone. It's alot funnier now than then! I think this is the very thread where Fubokuen first shows up.

But I'm missing your point. Your SM isn't even in this thread(?).

This is BFP business and none of YOURS... Which is precisely MY point. Pick a style and stand for it. Your comglomeration of literature will never supercede the person to person transmission... and only teenagers are gonna suck up to this "I am a master of 50 styles" posture, especially taught from paper.

01-30-2001, 02:56 AM
Instead of bringing up old dirt that bares no true significance, why dont you concentrate on saving what little face you still have left.

This is pathetic...

Peace :D

01-30-2001, 05:22 PM
i am not too knowledgable on the BFP drama. - nor do i really care that much.

i just wanted to mention... i bought this tape on 'the 18 taoist palms' form off of a 'whitetigerkungfu' web site, for about $20...
(i couldn't resist... the name was too cool.)

man! was i disappointed! - if anyone has seen it, they should know exactly what i am talking about.

first off, it was only about 10 mins long, and it looks like it was made in about 10 mins...
and that wouldn't have even bothered me, if they were showing something worth seeing.

let's just suffice it to say; in my opinion, that was not kung fu.

and i wrote an email to the guy, telling him so.
(i believe his name was dan larochelle.)

- just a word of warning to anyone who might be thinking of purchasing the tape. - save your money for something more worthwhile... like 'spray on hair' or something.

01-30-2001, 06:42 PM
MFY- This is really a shame. I have not seen this stuff but if it's that bad I'll buy the tape off of you and raise h*ll on this end. Email me...

Illusionfist- can you please lock this thread, I smell the hyenas...