View Full Version : Two Man forms of Hung Gar

06-30-2000, 08:03 PM
Hello everyone

Hung gar has number of two man forms. Empty hand, weapons and weapons vs empty hand. I was wondering what are the two man forms you practice in your lineage? And do you know when and who by these forms/sets were created?

Also what do you think are the advantages and disadvantages of two man forms? Some belive 2 manfoms are waste of time and hardly ever practice them and some put strong emphasies on the training of 2 man forms. What u think?Any ideas and info welcome.

[This message has been edited by blade (edited 07-01-2000).]

Paul Skrypichayko
07-01-2000, 05:30 AM
I think two man forms are great for two main reasons, training and demonstration. They build coordination, timing, and train fighting techniques, and they are very entertaining to watch.

I know there are quite a few two man forms in Chan Hon Chung lineage, but I haven't learned that many because I train one on one. We have things like gung ji, fu hok, monkey staff, and a ton of weapon vs weapon, and weapon vs hand sparring forms.

07-02-2000, 01:01 AM

Traditional Two man forms have many great benefits if they are practiced right. Like you said they build coordination, timing, and train fighting techniques as well as strenght,conditioning,footwork,awarness,
intention, speed, control etc..However if they are not practiced right they just become movments rather like dancing, nice to watch but no real martial benefits or meaning. 2 man forms should be practiced with as many different people as possible, different people move and react different. One must experiment these forms with people of different body type , small, big, short, tall etc. Behind every movment there must be intention..movments must be balanced, fast and swift and strong..Even tough movments are prearanged and the person Knows whats coming next, one must suprise his opponent every time.

Paul, in another post i notice you mention/disagree something about the origin and creator of Fu hok 2 man form. Can you post some more info regarding this subject and who do you think created the fu hok and gung gee (2 man form)?

Paul Skrypichayko
07-02-2000, 01:40 AM
Well, on Lam Chun Fai's website, www.hungkuen.com (http://www.hungkuen.com) , they talk about some of the two man forms. One quote from there, "Fu Hok Sheung Yin Doy Dar, the tiger-crane sparring set, originally choreographed by Lam Cho"

I disagree with this statement. I have heard from other sources that this form was choreographed by Wong Fei Hung and possibly Lam Sai Wing. It could be true however, that Lam Jo created his own version.

Gung Ji Doy Dar, I know nothing about. My sifu told me I already know those techniques from my basic practice, and that my time could be better spent on other material. I have no clue who created it, when, etc.

The other doy da forms (sparring forms) we practice are:
Ng Long Pa Kua Kwun vs Ng Long Pa Kua Kwun (ng long pa kua kwun sparring form)
Do and Tung Pai vs Cheung (broadsword and Rattan shield vs Spear)
Wu Diep Do vs Chueng (butterfly knives vs spear)
Dan Do vs Chueng (broadsword vs spear )
Chai Mei Kwun vs Chai Mei Kwun (eyebrow height staff)
Chai Mei Kwun vs Dang (eyebrow height staff vs wooden bench)
Gim vs Gim (straightsword sparring form)
Bei Sau vs Cheung (daggers vs spear)
Kwan Do vs Cheung (kwan do vs spear)
Seung Do vs Cheung (double broadsword vs spear)

There still might be a few others that I'm missing, possibly chain whip, etc.

bean curd
07-02-2000, 03:24 PM

curious on what grounds you disagree that lam jo created, fu/hok cern ying doy da.

since lam chun fai has stated that his father created this two man fighting form, we can trace the statement back to its origin.

however paul, to say "i have heard from other sources" that differ to lam chun fai's statment, gives no information, for others to balance your opinion, so who are these other sources, i would be greatly interested in knowing.

looking forward to your reply


Paul Skrypichayko
07-02-2000, 10:16 PM
Well, first of all, many of the other lineages practiced Fu Hok Seung Ying Doy Da before Lam Jo's day.

I have had email saying that it was created by Wong Fei Hung, and it has been stated in one or two magazine articles, and I think I even saw it on a website before. I'll ask around if anybody has those magazines so that I can quote them directly.

It's just common sense that they would have had a fu hok sparring form much earlier than Lam Jo's time. Still, he could have created his own. If I could see his version somewhere, I'm sure I could compare it to that of other Lam Sai Wing students.

07-02-2000, 10:18 PM
Concerning fu hok sparring set, what are the sources of information for it's origin?

I agree with Paul that it seems dubious that Lum Jo created the set but who knows. Looking at the Lam Chan Fai site, it appears to be run in California. So there could be something lost in translation.

On the otherhand, Lum Jo is Lam Sai Wing's nephew and it's possible that they worked on the set together so he could have had a hand in developing it.

Does any of the Tang Fung people practice the same set? That could tell us something.

About sparring sets in general, they are very important. As blade said, they cannot be praticed as memorized sequences but as active sets with your partner.

You need to feel where the energy and notice how to take advantage of it. On defense, you realize where you are vulnerable and how to minimize the openings. Of course there is more but it could be a book in itself.

Wing Lam's school has quite a few sparring sets. You can see most of them on his site.

Je Lei Sifu
07-03-2000, 07:56 AM
To all:

I am of the Tang Fung branch and we also do the Fu Hok Seung Ying Doy Da (or Doy Cha).

Tang Fung did not learn any of his gung fu from Lum Jo, so it is impossible for me to believe that Lum Jo created this two-man form.

However, Tang Fung and Lum Sai Wing spent many years practicing together, and it could be that Lum Sai Wing created this form.

My training has me to believe that this is a form which was created by Wong Fai Hung.

Je Lei Sifu

Paul Skrypichayko
07-03-2000, 09:18 AM
Good points guys. With a little info, some comparison, and plain old common sense, we can figure out lots of information.

Do any hung gar guys here train the rope dart?