What's the opinion on Randy Williams?

[IronFist]

I just got one of his videos and I've only had time to watch like 5 minutes of it. It seems pretty cool so far. Is there anything I should know about him or anything?

IronFist

[WinterPalm]

All you need to know is that his ultra grand master was different from mine and therefore my lineage is better than his and yours. I will defeat you!!!!:D

[reneritchie]

In light of all the recent brewhaha, this was perhaps a poor place and time to make this post...

RR

[OdderMensch]

Randy is way better than your current instructor ;)

[IronFist]

Odder, lol :) True.

You know what would be rad? You know tengu, the mythical beings that first taught the ninja? It would be awesome if some tengu came over while I was working out and decided to teach me ninjutsu :)

But until then I'll have to settle for WC videos and this forum :D

I'll review the tape after I watch it.

IronFist

[Grendel]

Originally posted by IronFist
Odder, lol :) True.

You know what would be rad? You know tengu, the mythical beings that first taught the ninja? It would be awesome if some tengu came over while I was working out and decided to teach me ninjutsu :)

But until then I'll have to settle for WC videos and this forum :D

I'll review the tape after I watch it.

IronFist

You can't learn anything of value from videos and this forum unless you already have a good teacher and have spent the time and hard work needed to cultivate an understanding of the art. Give yourself 20 years at least.

Regards,

[IronFist]

Holy motivation, batman!

IronFist

[kj]

Originally posted by Grendel


You can't learn anything of value from videos and this forum unless you already have a good teacher and have spent the time and hard work needed to cultivate an understanding of the art. Give yourself 20 years at least.

Regards,

An old friend says, "Never say always, and never say never." Still, I strongly agree with you on this account, Grendel. I'm not much a believer in instant kung fu.

Regards,
- kj

[David Jamieson]

While i would say 20 years of practice or even an entire lifetime of practice is a good thing in Kung Fu, I would have to say that after 20 years, if you are not solid on a lot of things and even have personal mastery of a few things martial, well then what the heck are you doing?

I mean come one...20 years is long long time for gawds sake.

People say things like this all the time, i have no idea why.

peace

[kj]

Originally posted by Kung Lek

People say things like this all the time, i have no idea why.


In part ...


To emphasize the relativity of accomplishment and understanding.
To offer a tiny glimpse and perspective on the depth of the art.
To counter-balance the tendency to trivialize the time, effort, and maturity required to realize deep understanding and exceptional levels of skill, not to mention the value of solid instruction and guidance.
To underscore the importance of a well-founded investment, rather than a house built on sand.
To give pause to consider how far there is yet to go, in hopes of not lavishing too long, too much, or with mis-spent pride in accomplishments thus far.


There is a saying ...

"Doa lo yut cheung hung" meaning you are empty when you are old, because you were empty from the beginning. Or, put another way, when you get old, you'll find that your practice was all for nought.

Another relevant saying is "Mm yan chi dai" (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=244319#post244319) meaning to mislead other people's children, as Grendel previously explained.

Humility is more nutritional than over-confidence when it comes to learning, growth or even in teaching, IME and IMHO, whether kung fu or in most other endeavors. Sadly, if one is already a "Master," the incentives for continued learning and growth become less pressing.

So I think these are a few of the many reasons why some say these things. Naturally, there will be differing perspectives.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[old jong]

Tapes can only give a very superficial view on Wing Chun because of the numerous suttle and non visual aspects of the art.
You will learn more in an houre with a knowledgable sifu than by watching tapes for ten years.

[IronFist]

Ten replies, two of which are mine, and none of them answered my question :D Thanks.

WinterPalm's and OdderMensch's replies were the most helpful, tho. And kj gets props for her excellent use of bullet points.

I assume then that he must be pretty decent since I didn't get any "stay away from this guy" replies yet.

Alright, rock on.

IronFist

edit: Oops, sorry, kj is a her :)

[Ras-Tanu]

i think kj is a her...

[yuanfen]

you betchum- kj- is a her....and a very knowledgeable person too and devoted to the art.

[old jong]

Originally posted by IronFist


I assume then that he must be pretty decent since I didn't get any "stay away from this guy"

Nobody said '' You must get them'' also!...Tapes are more a promotionnal money making machine than a learning tool. Very few will learn more than superficial gestures imitation on these tapes.

Note: In order to avoid any paranoid extra pyramidal reactions from a certain lineage ,I must specify that my comments apply to all the avaliable videos on the market today. :)

[Grendel]

Originally posted by IronFist
Ten replies, two of which are mine, and none of them answered my question :D Thanks.

Wait. Stop! There be rocks ahead! :p

Didn't mean to be too subtle for you. I don't endorse Randy Williams' teaching. Now what can you make of that? You don't know me either. :rolleyes:

Best you take care, and reread what KJ (Kathy Jo) posted. She is one of the few whose search for the real Wing Chun paid off.

Regards,

[S.Teebas]

He seems too tence ...this is only my novice opinion, i am not a master. :)

[zerozero]

Randy Who?

'Nuff said.

[black and blue]

His tapes and clear and thorough, and judging by the attitude he puts over on film, I would imagine him to be a good teacher. For me, the best thing about his tapes are their number... he covers alot of material.

However, I would recommend Duncan Leung's tapes over Randy Williams' as I feel the WC is better.

I would agree that, to me, RW's WC looks a little tense, a little too muscular. But my biggest complaint about his vids is the distance. Often when demonstrating techniques, his opponent throws a punch that, if RW had just stood their and not moved at all, wouldn't have landed. They are, in short, just too far away.

IMO, this doesn't demo what WC is really all about. That said, I have a few of his videos and on the whole enjoyed watching them.

But I'm crazy about WC and would buy pretty much anyone's tapes just to have a look at what they have to offer.

If your interested in buying some tapes, my first choice would be WSL's tape, and then Duncan Leung's and Augustine Fong's (though there are things that irked me a little with Fong Sifu's tapes too :) )

[black and blue]

Why o why o why do people keep going on about videos? the wsl one was terrible, it just gets worse and worse from there...

Training in the Kwoon is the only real way to learn, but, like you CrimsonKing, I live in the UK and so probably won't have the chance to meet Fong Sifu or Leung Sifu or any other big names. Videos are a good way (not the best way), and perhaps the only way for people like me to see what others have to offer.

I train three times a week, practise my forms at home, and occasionally slap in a video. I was given a video from 'Nat from UK' recently that had some HK footage of Pa Fa Lein (Sp?) Wing Chun. Great stuff. I can't afford to fly to Hong Kong and I can't speak Cantonese... so the Video was a real eye-opener.

What didn't you like about the WSL footage?

[Redd]

Originally posted by IronFist
Ten replies, two of which are mine, and none of them answered my question :D Thanks.


The answers you got are of greater service than the answer you want.

[reneritchie]

KJ is correct, as is becoming custom, that you can't learn much from tape, IMHO for the following reasons:

1) Much of WCK is not visible. Much of it is personal and involves the mastery of very small mechanics. In arts like WCK, what takes the work are things like learning the body alignment when standing, then how to maintain it while turning and stepping, then how to destory and create it within yourself as needed, then how to use it for defense and offense. This needs to be interactively and expertly corrected, almost like a doctor needs to be with you to diagnose you properly. If you develop this personal attainment, perhaps a video could help you but:

2) There are *no* good WCK videos. WCK videos are almost always wasted on stylistic choreography and cookie cutter "application". They are divided by form rather than phase, and show application for movement rather than movement for application, and seldom include the actual WCK core of reflexive conditioning, error correction, and overal tactical strategy.

It's hard enough to find good stuff in real life, so it stands to reason it would be harder still on tape.

RR

[black and blue]

So what ya saying, you're not planning on releasing your own set of vids? :D

[reneritchie]

B&B - I do not have the ability to create videos I would consider worthwhile, thus I am not.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by reneritchie
B&B - I do not have the ability to create videos I would consider worthwhile, thus I am not.
You wouldn't have said that when you were single. :D

[palanka]

OJ

What about the tape your sifu is selling?
Are they promotionnal tools for his school or learning tools for those who don't show up for classes

Randy is a smart man...don't you think

[old jong]

My Sifu is the first to say that learning Wing Chun properly from tapes without direct guidance is very difficult to say the least. His tape is more a practical reference for already active practitioners who can use their experience to use the informations contained in it.

It is also sold at a very low price witch put it out of the money making machine category.

It's a very unique and different tape.Get one!

Sure,Randy is very smart,why not?...Good business man!

[[Censored]]

If this thread has turned into "which tapes are good?", then I would like to recommend the Pan Nam series, because:

1. It's cheap.
2. The production quality is high.
3. It's a unique interpretation of Wing Chun.

What more can you ask of a video?

IIRC, Randy said himself on one of his tapes, "you can't learn much from a tape...". You can call him many things, but don't call him dishonest. :)

[palanka]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by old jong
[B]My Sifu is the first to say that learning Wing Chun properly from tapes without direct guidance is very difficult to say the least. His tape is more a practical reference for already active practitioners who can use their experience to use the informations contained in it.

Same goes for Randy's tapes no?

It is also sold at a very low price witch put it out of the money making machine category.

I agree

It's a very unique and different tape.Get one!

Humm, don't take it personnaly but if I have to get tapes from the Fong's lineage, I'd buy the ones made by your sigung, but they are too much expensive $$$$


Sure,Randy is very smart,why not?...Good business man!

Your sigung is also a good business man, his tapes are sold in Inside KF like the ones produced by Randy

Where there is business... ;o)

[Grendel]

Originally posted by palanka
[QUOTE]Originally posted by old jong
[B]My Sifu is the first to say that learning Wing Chun properly from tapes without direct guidance is very difficult to say the least. His tape is more a practical reference for already active practitioners who can use their experience to use the informations contained in it.

The way the post and response is run together, I can't understand who is saying what. :confused:


Same goes for Randy's tapes no?

It is also sold at a very low price witch put it out of the money making machine category.

I agree

It's a very unique and different tape.Get one!

Humm, don't take it personnaly but if I have to get tapes from the Fong's lineage, I'd buy the ones made by your sigung, but they are too much expensive $$$$


Sure,Randy is very smart,why not?...Good business man!

Your sigung is also a good business man, his tapes are sold in Inside KF like the ones produced by Randy

Where there is business... ;o)

A point that's been missed is that even if a tape is priced at zero, if there is misleading or misinformed content, and the consumer is mislead, then it will waste his time, which in this day and age, is the most important commodity.

Regards,

[Clint]

Wing Chun, the style that was created to be mastered in a short period of time. If it takes you 20 years to become a good wing chun practitioner, if you are not able to use it successfully after 5, YOU SIMPLY SUCK!
TRY A DIFFERENT STYLE!

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Clint
Wing Chun, the style that was created to be mastered in a short period of time. If it takes you 20 years to become a good wing chun practitioner, if you are not able to use it successfully after 5, YOU SIMPLY SUCK!
TRY A DIFFERENT STYLE!

I don't know the truth of your first statement. I doubt it, but that's a matter of historical discussion.

However, I doubt also that Wing Chun can be mastered, whatever that means, in a short period of time. Perhaps, as an educator thinks of subject mastery, five years might be enough to get acquainted with much of it, but truly good skill takes much, much longer. To use it "successfully" does not require mastery.

FWIW, I have touched hands with many 20 plus year students and teachers and speak from this experience. I've found that my Wing Chun is better than some, whcih is surprising, but not as good as others, especially those in my lineage, which I find unsurprising.

I have only five years of Wing Chun experience, and in my own humble regard, my Wing Chun is still "sucky" because the mountain I attempt to climb is tall and steep.

Some reach a plateau and think they've arrived. If one is satisfied with that, then that's fine for them. I don't envision that I will ever be at the top of the Wing Chun mountain, no matter high high I climb.

If one believes Wing Chun can be mastered in five years, then I'd suggest they may be in a sucky school, since in any genuine lingeage, the teachers have studied and learned for many years longer from a teacher who has done so, and can show his/her connection to a good historical source; e.g. Yip Man. Sure, one can fight sooner or later with Wing Chun, but that doesn't equate to mastery in terms of kung fu. A good Wing Chun person will be a good fighter, but a good fighter does not necessarily know Wing Chun.

Mm yan chi dai.

Regards,

[Clint]

Wing chun, developed in the temple, back in the day, when wushu styles took like 20 years to master (and still do). One monk said to the other "Hey we need a style of fighting that will match any other style, but can be learned, well, in about a 4rth of the time." Hence, wing chun! All the best, most useful/practical techniques in one logical, yet simple style. Makes sense, no more waiting till we are 35 or 40 years old, just to learn a complete style. As for you, I am sure you are good! Sure, there will always be more to learn, but thats with everything in life. One can study wing chun under the same sifu for 20 years, another for only five, yet the five year person is better, this simply means the 5 year person is naturally better. This is just life! There is always someone better. I can play basketball for 50 years, but I will never defeat Michael Jordan. He is just better at it than I am at basketball. SKILLS! It should not take one 20 years to learn the principles and techniques of wing chun, no one will ever learn every single combination of techniques, it is endless! No point in worrying about it, you can still be **** good!

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Clint
Wing chun, developed in the temple, back in the day, when wushu styles took like 20 years to master (and still do). One monk said to the other "Hey we need a style of fighting that will match any other style, but can be learned, well, in about a 4rth of the time." Hence, wing chun! All the best, most useful/practical techniques in one logical, yet simple style. Makes sense, no more waiting till we are 35 or 40 years old, just to learn a complete style.

Hi Clint,

You are correct in that much can be learned in a relatively short time. You are also correct that some teachers draw out the learning period for the little they know. Obviously, they have several motivations for doing so: a continued revenue stream, the keeping of "secrets" in the kwoon, ego, etc. If you are referring to that type of instruction, then I am totally in agreement that the students are being held back. In fact, I would be afraid of the quality of such instruction. Why wouldn't the unethical teacher just keep making up "new" training for the gullible, passing out pseudo ranks and titles, making sifus out of monkeys?


As for you, I am sure you are good!

Are you speaking to me? I'm not good; it has been repeatedly established, I'm evil. :D But, it was nice of you to pretend to grant me credibility. :D


Sure, there will always be more to learn, but thats with everything in life. One can study wing chun under the same sifu for 20 years, another for only five, yet the five year person is better, this simply means the 5 year person is naturally better.

I must disagree with this assumption. Wing Chun is a scientific art, based on prinicples that any person can learn--big, small, smart, stupid, (Ok, smart helps!), athletic, nonathletic. The subtleties of the art are mind boggling. Hard work, dedication, and persistence make the successful student.


This is just life! There is always someone better. I can play basketball for 50 years, but I will never defeat Michael Jordan.

What a nightmare he would be if he learned Wing Chun. :p But, naturally advantaged athletes don't seem to often have the patience for kung fu. :(


He is just better at it than I am at basketball. SKILLS! It should not take one 20 years to learn the principles and techniques of wing chun, no one will ever learn every single combination of techniques, it is endless! No point in worrying about it, you can still be **** good!
I don't study technique driven Wing Chun. Most Wing Chun schools teach flowery hands. Wong Shun Leung said: “Don't just play with hands.” I seek to learn a strong horse, position, sensitivity, and timing with the speed and power that comes with perfect practice.

Regards,

[Clint]

I will agree with that, pretty much! I do agree that anyone can learn wing chun, however, I also think certain people are just naturally better. Practice is essential! That is true. Oh, and I am sure you are good wing chun practitioner, maybe not as good as you want to be, yet, but you can still be good without being on that William Cheung level.