Angry white pyjamas

[Liokault]

Any one here read Angry white pyjamas?

Its a good book by a guy called Robert Twigger.

It traces a year or so he spends in Japan and the Aikido riot trainning course he attends full time for a year.

The most revealing chapter of the book for me is when the head of the Aikido school dies and all the top teachers from around the world come to the funeral. they go out drinking (in tokyo) and get in a string of fights. When asked one of R Twigger fellow students who witnessed the fighting said that all thease guys didnt use any fancy wrist locks or cool throws but just waded in with haymakers!!!

This kind of worries me as Tai Chi is not that from removed from Aikido. But at least the drunked bums won.

[Xebsball]

Sounds like the top teachers sucked.

Its sad, but i believe that few of todays Tai Chi praticioners worldwide would do any better than using haymakers.

[Shadow Dragon]

Originally posted by Liokault

This kind of worries me as Tai Chi is not that from removed from Aikido. But at least the drunked bums won.

Sez, who?? NO established link exists between Aikido and either Taiji or Bagua.

But this can be easily verified by asking the Aikikai Honbu in Tokyo, last time I asked the answer was a firm NO.

Cheers.

[Liokault]

Sez, who?? NO established link exists between Aikido and either Taiji or Bagua.
sHey jumpy!

Im not talking about direct links or any thing I am talking about 'principle'. i.e the ideas behind Tai Chi are not soi far remover from those of aikido.

I am not saying that anyone who was responsibale for aikido ever learnt tai chi.




Anyway its a good book.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Liokault
But at least the drunked bums won.

"drunken"

What do you mean by "at least" they won?
ain't more to it than that.

[HuangKaiVun]

What's wrong with haymakers?

Tai Chi has punches all over the place.

Every branch of Taijiquan I can think of has those heavy smacking punches that are meant to drop guys. Not just haymakers, but jabs and body blows.

Sounds like they fought PROPERLY, though not for the right reasons.

[anerlich]

I read the book. It was entertaining and well written.

[Budokan]

Funny. I was in Borders today and actually flipped through that book. Didn't buy it though....

[Stranger]

"I have never read the book nor have I personally trained in Yoshinkan Aikido.

I wouldn't necessarily consider the aikido bar fight a dark mark on the effectiveness of the style. Most styles don't work so well when drunk, some moreso than othes. Yoshinkan Aikido requires a keen sense of distance, timing, and center combined with fast flowing reflexes and rooted in calmness. All of these requisites would be effected after a few drinks and be almost non-existant after a night of binge drinking combined with grief misdirected into random anger and violence.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it is something to consider."

***************************************
This is my quote from the last time this debate raged oh so long ago (last month :rolleyes: ). Nobody cared to comment on it, but which style works when you are out of your mind with grief and hammered with alcohol? Unless you are studying a streamlined system based on gross motor movements and requiring no depth-perception or balance, heavy alcohol intake will erode your skills.

Maybe we can have one of those great KFO discussions wherein Ueshiba $ucks, the Japanese are naught but poor aping martial arts goons, and aikido is directly drawn from just about every KF style, despite the complete lack of any compelling historical argument or bit of evidence suggsting so)?
:rolleyes:

[Former castleva]

Heard that once before,and I still can´t think of it as anything but a joke...
Not once I have heard of any link to this from any single practitioner&even boards like aikidojournal and various others...
It seems like these would be the last ppl on earth to do that,and WHY? I may,I just might believe this but these are either lower class practitioners,whose names I have never heard of...or aikido community is so sensitive about these guys ruining their reputation that it has been buried like Andy Kaufman from pop-culture...hmmm.

[KC Elbows]

Ugh...

Simple logic. That's all it takes. These are all martial artists. Odds are pretty good that a number of them are familiar with various styles.

Now, they are grief stricken and drunk, remembering the death of teacher. They get in fights. Fists go flying. Now, do drunken people run around going 'I'm gonna restrain that guy like he's never been restrained before'? I don't think so.

Of course, now these guys are 'low level' because they mourned their teacher's passing in their own way, or just thugs(as if that precludes them from being high level practitioners of a fighting art, even aikido). Exactly how many of the legends of asian martial arts involve drunken 'masters' beating people up? Those dang low class unknown thugs. Always making things harder for those upper class even lesser known guys.

Also, aikido has way more in common with pa kua than tai chi.

[Liokault]

I think most of what has been above is true....but I am still kind of disapointed with the niggiling feeling that I have at the back of my head that it all comes down to wild haymakers in the end.

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by Liokault
I think most of what has been above is true....but I am still kind of disapointed with the niggiling feeling that I have at the back of my head that it all comes down to wild haymakers in the end.

Police restrain people all of the time. And knives beat haymakers a good amount of the time.

[ewallace]

But at least the drunked bums won.
'Nuff said. They won. I'd much rather win and/or survive then look graceful like a flower blooming in the spring.

[Liokault]

So if it all comes down to haymakers why bother with all the training?

Does any one here train to throw a good haymaker?

[Former castleva]

:rolleyes:

They eventually broke all "fundamental" rules of the art,one of them includes looking like a graceful flower. :D
They did not represent harmony,instead they got drunk and went to beat up some random bouncers,which is not very defensive.lol

And besides this,I do not consider it an important point that they went to wreck those doormen with their fists (well if going smart,they could not have attacked using aikido,theoretically)
The point is they participated in criminal and suspicious behavior.

"Simple logic. That's all it takes. These are all martial artists. Odds are pretty good that a number of them are familiar with various styles."
lol.Yeah.
That is possible of course,I hope it still does not qualify them to go ruling the streets... :)
Unless they are allowed to because they also practiced other arts besides art of peace.

[KC Elbows]

I train my hook quite a bit..However, I don't think this is sufficient evidence that it all comes down to haymakers. It's one anecdote. Involving drunken people who also are probably fighting drunken people. Also, drunken practitioners of an art entirely unlike my art. How could I draw any conclusions? I don't even generally do grabs in fighting, unless the opponent is already trashed.

Former Castlevania,
I know very few japanese stylists who don't have knowledge in more than one japanese style. And sure, they broke the principles of that one art, but in all arts they studied?

I just think there's too many people who think that morality is a determining factor in the fight arena. There is no good or bad that is important in a fight. There are only those who did the right move to make it through and stick it out at the right time, and those who did not.

To draw conclusions about a whole art from a retelling of that art in a context in which that art wouldn't do well is somewhat silly. Now, if the teachers were attacked, and failed to use their aikido, that's something different. But they attacked, and chose not to use aikido in a way the author noted. I'd say that was a good decision for them to have made, since aikido is not about attacking.

[HuangKaiVun]

A haymaker is not my move of choice, but I DEFINITELY train to throw one anyway.

Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Hsing I, Cha Quan, Tong Bei - those are but some of the arts that regularly train this move.

One should learn how to throw the hardest and fastest punch he can.

[Liokault]

"I train to dislocate the elbow of people that throw haymakers."


Does that work?....Ever done it?


If I throw a hay maker with my right arm that lands on anything hard it kills my elbow. BUT I broke my elbow when I was a kid and so now I can vastly over extend it.

The only times it bothers me is when throwing hay makers or when hitting the heavy bag, catching it just wrong over extending my elbow and then the bag is trying to fold my arm up the wrong way....hurts loads.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Liokault
So if it all comes down to haymakers why bother with all the training?

that's a BIG question. i wonder the same thing all the time. not about aikido, in particular. but a lot of us have facets of our styles that 1) we've never used or 2) we've never seen applied successfully. that's not to say it won't work. but we don't have any evidence to support it.

and that's definitely cause for worry. or at the very least curiosity.

[[Censored]]

If Aikido is defined as "contains some arcs", then I suppose Ueshiba derived it from a combination of Tai Chi and my kindergarten art class. LOL. :)

If we are just talking about some random group of practitioners, then who cares about their fidelity or technical ability. But these drunked bums were (are?) the world's foremost pracititioners of the art. "Well, they were drunked" is a lame excuse.

If they were smart they would fight first and drink later.

[ewallace]

If your brother or cousin or best friend is drunk and tries to start with you do you:

a) Use your best, sophisticated, fail-proof killing technique

b) Apply a fingers pinned to wrist knife hand roll over his wrist pointed towards heart and drop to floor chin-na technique

c) Throw him/her/it to the ground or dish out a good gut shot to prevent injury for both of you

For me I'd say a. and b. are definitely out of the question. c. may not be reasonable depending on the circumstance. The fact is that we were not there and don't know the details. Plus a good bar brawl among friends every now and then is fun to some folks.

[KC Elbows]

If all the martial arts practitioners in history didn't drink and fight, there wouldn't be a lot of martial arts history left.

Poor aikido guys. On the one hand, they get slammed by some people for not being realistic fighters, and being too psuedo religious. Now they get slammed for fighting, and for drinking.

[jon]

hmmm
Aikido is not an art famous for its aggression releases.
These guys just got back from a funeral and went out drinking looking for a fight. Im not sure Aikido would be entirely practical under these circumstances. on the other hand if you want to let out aggression and feel some 'impacts' then haymakers would seem like an excerlent subsitute. It doesnt sound to me so much like they where attempting to put on a display of there martial arts so much as they where simply letting off steam and depression in a very stupid fashion.


Incidently.
Can we STOP confusing hook punches with haymakers?
Hooks are full 90% angle punches that are very ergonomicaly efficient, generate excelent power plus are very hard to see coming. Infact i would rate a good hook as one of the hardest hand movements to proparly defend against.

Haymakers are wild floating punches where the whole arm is kept almost strait and simply swung like a hammar. This is a typical sign of someone panicking on simply being untrained.

Hooks rule, haymakers are pathetic :p

[Former castleva]

KC,

"I know very few japanese stylists who don't have knowledge in more than one japanese style. And sure, they broke the principles of that one art, but in all arts they studied?"

Your personal experiences I can´t naturally comment on,but I have not heard of a single japanese style which would recommend it´s practitioners to go looking for trouble.

"I just think there's too many people who think that morality is a determining factor in the fight arena. There is no good or bad that is important in a fight. There are only those who did the right move to make it through and stick it out at the right time, and those who did not."

When you´re actually fighting to satisfy your own needs in a way described,morality has already left the area.
What remains is crime,unless you are fighting back for a reason.

"To draw conclusions about a whole art from a retelling of that art in a context in which that art wouldn't do well is somewhat silly. " Agreed.

"But they attacked, and chose not to use aikido in a way the author noted. I'd say that was a good decision for them to have made, since aikido is not about attacking."
Yes,applies to most if not any chinese and other arts too,is "exaggerated" in aikido though.
Considering that these guys were supposed to be high ranked instructors of the art,I think it was a bizarre decision to attack,which they did.
So if they would have used aikido they could not have attacked,technically and philosophically (still applies to any legtimate art)

But to sum it up,art´s still fine and bad stuff happens at times.
This is mostly threatening to those who commit such and also to the reputation of the art trough the eyes of those outside.

[Liokault]

Stumblefist



Aikido is basically killing, so the people probably had enough sense not to use anything lethal. Basic Yoshinikan defense is simultaneous punch/stun then joint locking.






You would not belive the number of people we get coming into our tai chi class saying that they have done Aikido (very popular in Oxford) and how dangerouse it is to use against anyone.

Yet when we get on the mats they not one has ever managed a wrist lock (they normaly just give up on wrist locks quite fast) or any disernable Aikido......and we give them plenty of chance.

[Stranger]

You would not belive the number of people we get coming into our tai chi class saying that they have done Aikido....

Were they from the Yoshinkan organization? If not, how does this apply to the Angry White Pyjamas story?

Yoshinakn aikido is its own distinct sub-system within the larger aikido community. (Shioda studied extensively in the Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Hombu as well as under Ueshiba and it flavors the style moreso than any other sub-system of aikido since the pre-War years).

Liokault,

Pull this hook out of my mouth, throw me back in the water, and stop trolling.

:p

[HuangKaiVun]

Choy Li Fut and TongBei and ChangQuan and even Hung Ga all have haymakers, jon.

For certain people, the move works great.

[Liokault]

Why is it that any thread or post that puts a point that a small section of the people here dont like gets called out as a troll.

I was not trying to troll......I do not care about Aikido particularly or any branch of Aikido come to that.

I was just refering to a good book I read that raised a point thats been worrying me for a while.


Stumblefist-Stranger go read the book....its a good read. then come back.


Stumblefist


One can argue that because it is harder to learn it can be more effective. I think this is generally true of all MA.

Did you really write that or did you just mean to think it? Would your martial art be more 'effective' if you trained in it with one hand tied behind your back?

[jon]

"Choy Li Fut and TongBei and ChangQuan and even Hung Ga all have haymakers, jon.
For certain people, the move works great."

* Notice that little pick of Lam Sai Wing in my avatar? I have a pretty good idea of the kind of punches and power generation that Hung Ga uses. They are NOTHING like haymakers, if you honestly think these systems use haymakers i pitty you.

They may certainly use extended arms and swinging power generation. However the method of execution is very scientfic and bears basicaly no reasemblence what so ever to some drunk simply swinging his arm in a circular shape.

[sweaty_dog]

I don't think budo has much to do with being nice to people. Japanese officers in WW2 were mostly budoka.

[Stranger]

L,

You are not a troll. This post is somewhat trollish, in that your fears are based on such an extreme generalization that it is hard to take it seriously (especially when counter points are not addressed directly merely dismissed with another specualtive argument). The troll comment was said lightheartedly, thus the smiley icon.

I would love to read this book, and it will be done this summer when I'm not ripping my hair out grading student papers, however, no story of a small group of practitioners will ever shape my opinion on an entire art (especially when every anecdote dissing aikido can be countered with an equally speculative and unsubstantiated counter-anecdote of aikido's effectiveness).

Similar logic would fall along these lines: There is a KFO story of a vid of a TaiChi guy fighting a white crane guy in some old kung fu tournament. It looks a little "sloppy" as I understand. Another day while in martial arts calss a group of practitioners from the local New Age Hippy non-combative Tai Chi class show up to spar (this is fictional). They don't perform well, and as a result of these two "exposures" I dismiss Tai Chi as probably ineffective regardless of sub-system or lineage.

Sounds a little silly, doesn't it?

[Liokault]

Ok ok let me in the face of being told im ignoring posts and abuseing Aikido restate me oridional point in a few moew words.

Please remember that it just happens to be aikido but could quite easly be any Martial Art.



Ok you train for years in a tough (anyone who has read AWP will not doubt that the training was tough) dangerouse martial art, you get to the top of the tree....a real big man in your martial art......nothing more to learn and all that you have learnt has been practiced and polished to the max.

Now you go out and have a few drinks....not to many but a few....get in a fight with a guy who is (if i remember correctly) smaller than you and all ready intimidated by your reputation (as you have all ready been to a few bars in the area and got into fights with the bouncers there) and all you can do is throw haymakers!


Is the haymaker the fundimental bottom line?

When it comes down to it does our years of training anf conditioning go out of the window to be replaced with a school yard instinct to throw a wild swing?

Should we acknolage that and make it work for us?

If not (and im assuming not) how do we overcome the nateral desire to throw haymakers and forget our training?





Ok does that clear up my position a bit?

The thing about stooopid aikido guys coming to our club and telling us that they are to dangerouse to grapple with in any freestyle way is quite true but kind of irrelivant to the thread and may have been a bit of a red herring to the main point.

[Stranger]

I understand now. I'm sorry if it came off like I was busting your yarbles.

I find the restated question to offer much more potential for a discussion that would be relevant to more KFO members.

To the revised question, I would answer the following:

Haymakers are a gross motor movement, but just one example (not suited for every situation, style, or practitioner). I think it wise to establish training in at least some gross motor responses to unanticipated violence. In the event that you are ambushed, off your game, drunk, suffering from an uncontrolled adrenalin dump, or whatever, you may not have an intricate response in the opening exchange. Once the gross motor response clears the initial threat, you may change the fight strategy to a more technical tack. In this same train of logic, I think it unwise to assume that you will always be able control the range of a fight, setting of a fight, your physical condition prior to the fight, and a host of other X-factors.

If you don't prepare for these contingencies, you have a greater chance of experiencing getting stuck in "gross motor mode" throughout the fight (unable to shift out) or experience "brain freeze" altogether if variables not found in your MA school are present are in the fight.

[HuangKaiVun]

jon, you know your Hung Ga better than to compare ONE picture of Lam Tsai Wing to the move in question.

You and I both know that the Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen form AND the Tiger Crane form - not to mention the Butterfly Palm form and others - have the straight arm looping punch.

In fact, I distinctly recall that poster of Lam Tsai Wing's Tiger Crane form displaying straight arm punches. I don't have the poster, but I'll look it up for you. You'll probably disagree with me, and that's cool because you don't use the move yourself.

A straight arm hook punch is a straight arm hook punch, regardless of lineage or circumstance.

[Liokault]

I think Jons right about this.



If you practice a haymaker and find an opening for it then throw it at a target is it still a haymaker or is it somthing else?


To me a haymaker is a wild uncontroled blow thrown randomly.

[HuangKaiVun]

jon is right when it comes to doing FORMS.

But in COMBAT, people swing. They don't always hit, but they don't always miss either. And it looks like a wild uncontrolled swing at times. It's hard for me to believe that jon's Hung Ga sifu didn't teach him this.

Perhaps Liokault is one of those fighters for whom his hits ALWAYS connect. That's great, but not everybody else is that accurate.

Kung fu is reality based, which is why the systems I mentioned train the move.

That's a lot of kung fu to take "pity" on.

[jon]

HuangKaiVun

I honestly thought you had more sence than to address me personaly. Obviously you dont!
I would happily wipe the floor with you and your video game learned kung fu any day of the week. The fact you dare to refer to my sifu and supposed skill level simply makes me even angryer.
If i where you i would think a little more clearly before you go trying to shove that fourteen year old interlect down my neck.
Your only knowledge of Hung Ga comes from videos, yet you pretence to lecture me when im not even speaking to you?
You need a good lesson in mannors as well as a few more years in education by the sounds of it.
Lets examine this drawl shall we? You knew you would hook me, so here i am!


"jon is right when it comes to doing FORMS."
* I never commented on forms, your talking off the top of your head.

"But in COMBAT, people swing. They don't always hit, but they don't always miss either. And it looks like a wild uncontrolled swing at times. It's hard for me to believe that jon's Hung Ga sifu didn't teach him this."
* Look fool, just becouse your 'sifu' showed you to execute punches that actualy throw you off balance when they miss does not mean my sifu was that insane. Normal Hung Ga practioners train there structure and root so that they can execute heavy blows without sacrifising there base. It is never wild and uncontrolled unless YOU punked up!!!

Next time you speak ill of me or ANY of my teachers, I would think a little more carefully.

[jon]

Whoops i almost forgot this wonderfull insight into a system you have no clue about as well.

"jon, you know your Hung Ga better than to compare ONE picture of Lam Tsai Wing to the move in question."
* My pointing out of LSW was to state i had practiced Hung for five years and know well how they execute there punches.

"You and I both know that the Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen form AND the Tiger Crane form - not to mention the Butterfly Palm form and others - have the straight arm looping punch."
* What has this got to do with 'haymakers'? I dont even know what the heck you mean by 'looping punch'.

"In fact, I distinctly recall that poster of Lam Tsai Wing's Tiger Crane form displaying straight arm punches. I don't have the poster, but I'll look it up for you. You'll probably disagree with me, and that's cool because you don't use the move yourself. "
* Yeah thats becouse the movements are PICTURES!!!
They are taken at the full extension of the movement, you dont simply swing your arms around like giant mallets and hope for the best. I cant believe im even needing to write this.
Also what on earth where you thinking when you wrote "you don't use the move yourself". Do you normaly manage to know exactly what people on the opposite side of the earth use for there choosen techniques? If you mean i dont use haymakers then i guess im guilty as charged. If you mean i dont know how to apply the movements in my own form i have to inform you that your horribly mistaken.

"A straight arm hook punch is a straight arm hook punch, regardless of lineage or circumstance"
* Rubbish, there are many different ways to execute the same movements. Pak Hok has very different punching mechanics to Hung Ga even if on the outside they may appear similar. There are NO strait arm hooks in Gung Gee, i dont know about Fu Hok as i didnt study that set. There are many forearm blows and swinging backfists in Hung Ga. Perhaps the fact you have only ever seen this system in books and movies has made you a little confused as to what the actual applications are?

For your information and also seeing as you seem a couple of cans short of a six pack.
IF you actualy land a 'strait arm hook' at full force you stand an almight chance of popping your elbow clean out of its socket(not to mention any opponent with half a brain will help this process). Ever seen Karate or TKD people performing hard 'ridgehand' strikes? Notice the way they bend there elbows to avoid the blow from breaking there arm?
If this is the application YOU teach to YOUR students i honestly pity THEM. If you dont believe me then go to a heavy bag get your arm lock your elbow and throw your almight 'strait hook' and watch as your arm neatly folds in half for your viewing pleasure.

[Serpent]

jon is quite right.

HuangKaiVun, as usual, is making a complete tit out of himself.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Stumblefist

...
Aikido is HARD to learn. Indeed my sensai thought


your what?

...
One can argue that because it is harder to learn it can be more effective. I think this is generally true of all MA.
..


why?

[chingei]

Originally posted by jon
HuangKaiVun

I honestly thought you had more sence than to address me personaly. Obviously you dont!
I would happily wipe the floor with you and your video game learned kung fu any day of the week. The fact you dare to refer to my sifu and supposed skill level simply makes me even angryer.
If i where you i would think a little more clearly before you go trying to shove that fourteen year old interlect down my neck.
Your only knowledge of Hung Ga comes from videos, yet you pretence to lecture me when im not even speaking to you?
You need a good lesson in mannors as well as a few more years in education by the sounds of it.
so here i am!
Next time you speak ill of me or ANY of my teachers, I would think a little more carefully.

hawhawhawhawhawhaw!
yeah! tough guys with poor spelling!
This is the part where you make plans to "meet", right?

[Liokault]

Why so much hostility on this thread?


Re: Robert Twigger

No he is not a martial artist or indeed an akidoka.

this in no way detracts from what he went though in his riot training coures. At several points in the book he implyes that he has no real interest in Aikido but has an interest in experiances. Also it is stated more than once that the guys on the riot traning course are not really intended to learn good aikido but are expected to be able to push them selfs to the max- hence the houre spent kneeling on hard floors till his knees bleed.....day after day after day.....nothing to do with good aikido (i think?) but a lot to do with expanding your limites. It should also he said that more than once RTs 2 friends who are also doing aikido point out that even though they all started training at the same time and were not doing the riot training their aikido was better.




The best and most reveling part of the book for me was the the part where they were doing gradings and some guy had his arm broken. He didnt stop the grading but carried on till he was finished. Truns out he was the only guy the Japenses ever said well done to.

I think that sums up the riot training.

[scotty1]

"If they were smart they would fight first and drink later."

Without drinking first the fighting may not have occured.

I know I've not been around much recently but Jon - such anger!
You still going to China? (hijack not intended)

[HuangKaiVun]

Yeah, I wonder what's wrong with jon and serpent.

These two have been after me for months.

I respect them and their teachers, and my teachers do things a bit differently. Yet they can't handle it.

Oh well. Their loss.

[Liokault]

I think that Aikido is a fine martial art that has a lot to offer in trems of self dicipline but little to offer in the way of self defense.

Now I am not going to get into a mud slinging match about aikido as I have never trained in it ans so am only talking from my experiance of people that have trained in aikido and what I have read.

Also I do not feel that saying its limitted in terms of self defense takes away from its value in anyway.

(and that is as diplomatic as i will ever need to get I hope)


scotty1


So have you found a teacher in china yet?

One of the guys from our club has gone out to Bejing and has found a teacher for 200 of our UK pounds a month but thats for 8 hours training a day 5 days a week.

Not quite sure what he is training in though as MSN instant messiging second hand though my teacher is hard to get much sense from.

[jon]

chingei
"hawhawhawhawhawhaw!
yeah! tough guys with poor spelling!
This is the part where you make plans to "meet", right?"
* Yeah good one monkey boy, i guess spelling is easy when you only write one sentence concieted replys right?
Any other words of wisdom or have you run out of your brilliantly insightfull one liners? Dont worry im sure it wont take you long to find something else you can pull out of context and try to find fault with. Losers like you always prefer to hide behind insults and misconceptions.

Seeing as im in a generous mood, here are some general tips for your debating skills.
Picking on spelling does not dispell an arguement.
Only providing one line replys gives away the fact you have no real valid arguement and are instead simply trying to cause trouble.
Pretending to quote people and then editing there posts shows you cant argue the facts at hand.
Jumping into something that has nothing to do with you and then trying to act like your on higher ground makes you look egotistical.

Failing all that you can always hide behind one line insults in the hope that you wont fumble the ball for someone else to make a run with. Or maybe even you could just pretend that having access to a spell and grammar checker makes your pathetic views somehow more valid?


Scotty1
"I know I've not been around much recently but Jon - such anger!
You still going to China? (hijack not intended)"
* Im sorry i didnt mean to come accross quite so bitterly, i just have issue with people refering to my teachers negatively when they have no idea about them. Still excuses are only excuses and of course your quite right - i over reacted. My appologies to all who had to read though my aggressive outburst. Ive not been in a good mood of late and im in no way to be suffering fools lightly.
I *am* still going to China but probarly not untill about Midway though next year, we where originaly hoping to have gone in Nov of this year but had many delays. Either way we *are* still going its just a matter of getting ourselfs organised. Hope your well and training hard? Why have you been off for a while?


HuangKaiVun
Im going to keep this short and sweet...

"Yeah, I wonder what's wrong with jon and serpent."
* You insulted me and my teachers.

"These two have been after me for months."
* Only becouse of the way you post, if you decide to act like a goat you can expect a few of us to call you on it.

"I respect them and their teachers, and my teachers do things a bit differently. Yet they can't handle it."
* Rubbish, if you respected me or my teachers you would not have made such rude comments. It has nothing to do with a difference in approch.

"Oh well. Their loss."
* Why bother trying to come the higher road when your comments are there for all to see only one page back? You started this when i was not even addressing you personaly.
Your the one who is insulting my teachers and training, im just not prepared to take such things lying down.

[jon]

erg

Im just in a horrid mood and taking my stress out on a bunch of people i will never meet on the other side of the earth.
Im sorry to all, its silly of me to take things so seriously.
Im going to go play games or something for a while :)

chingei and huang
I dont know what either of you is like in 'real' life but im fairly sure your both ugly and smell funny:p
Bah just making a feeble attempt at humour, feeble being the opperative word;)

[chingei]

Originally posted by jon

* Yeah good one monkey boy, i guess spelling is easy when you have completed 3rd grade, right?


Seeing as im in a generous mood, here are some general tips for your debating skills.
Picking on spelling does not dispell an arguement.

You'd better hope not!


Only providing one line replys gives away the fact you have no real valid arguement and are instead simply trying to cause trouble.

'Replies'

Pretending to quote people and then editing there posts shows you cant argue the facts at hand.

'Their'


Jumping into something that has nothing to do with you and then trying to act like your on higher ground makes you look egotistical.

'You're'

maybe even you could just pretend that having access to a spell and grammar checker makes your views somehow more valid?

I apologize for taking advantage of the fact that English is my first language. What's yours?



hahahahahahhahaa

[chingei]

Originally posted by jon

chingei
I dont know what you are like in 'real' life but im fairly sure your ugly and smell funny:p












lucky guess.

[jon]

lol at Chingei

My friend you can be my personal spell and grammar check anytime you like. I guess if im too lazy im going to need someone to do it.
Can I have a go at yours as well? I have to admit my skills are not up to your personal high standards but i can still try, can't I?


"yeah! tough guys with poor spelling!
This is the part where you make plans to "meet", right?"

'Yeah' needs a capital Y and is only a sentence fragment.
Tough should also have a capital as your last exclamation mark signified the end of your sentence. I also fail to see why your using exclamation marks at all.

"I apologize for taking advantage of the fact that English is my first language. What's yours?"
* Errrm its English JUST, i live in Australia for FFS. Your lucky im not calling you maaaaaaaaate and inviting you to settle this via a game of footy. Besides if your english is so darn good why do you have such a hard time with commen spelling mistakes?

"lucky guess."
* Snicker i knew it, i knew it:D

All the best and happy hunting.
Jon

[jon]

Angry white pyjamas?

Oh, the irony :D

[chingei]

Originally posted by jon
lol at Chingei

All the best and happy hunting.
Jon

lol
:cool:

[chingei]

Originally posted by Stumblefist
"
..
Good analysis, saves other people the bother.
....
Hmmm..that description should be catalogued in Norton's virus list.

Don't worry. The insecurity you are feeling is perfectly natural (and in your case, justified).