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View Full Version : Since we're bieng Controversial: PEEP/ TALKS ABOUT WINGCHUN HUNGGA BAKMEI CHOY LAYFUT



diego
11-24-2002, 03:33 PM
Is Pak Mei Shaolin?

(9/5/01)

There is a great deal of misinformation and half-truths generated by misinformed students of Chinese martial arts. The first misconception is the Shaolin Temple myth.

Many Chinese styles were village styles or family styles, which developed as a need for protection from bandits. Many became great boxers and as their fame spread they attached themselves to the Shaolin Temple. This could be likened to a boxer claiming to be taught by Muhammad Ali. This would bring instant fame and recognition using a name the public recognized. In those days a village boxer had to be good to survive. If he were beaten he would have to leave.

One example of a boxing style that originated from two teachers was choy li fut. The founder of choy li fut put together the boxing styles of choy gar and fut gar naming the style out of respect for his teachers.

Hung Kuen is often referred to the Shaolin Temple. The truth, as told to Lee Pai by the head of the Chinese Free Masons and todei of Lam Sai Wing is different from the general story given to the public. Hung Kuen (hung gar) was developed for the boat people who practiced on the top decks of saipans. The low wide horse stance was used for stability. The well educated did not practice Hung gar because it came from the docks and boat people were considered a lower class. The claim to Shaolin was to make the style more reputable.

The reality is that Shaolin Boxing styles came from boxers who sought sanctuary. These boxers had to earn their keep and the way to do this was to teach the monks. What else could these wanted men do? Stepping outside the temple meant death. Shaolin monks were Buddhists which means they were non-aggressive and non-violent. The original exercises given to them by Da Mo were meant for health. There cannot be a Buddhist style. This would break their code of conduct.

Todays Shaolin Temple is merely a tourist trap. The senior monks were told by the communist government to teach or lose their temple. The monks were told to teach something they could live with. The income generated by this instruction would support the temple.

Daoist styles were practical and separate from religion. Daoist monks had no hang-ups regarding use. Pak Mei is an example of a Daoist style shrouded in mystery. The forms in Pak Mei were not made up by Cheung Lai Chun. He did, however, name the style after Pak Mei, the Taoist priest, to honour his teacher. The monks practicing these arts did not concern themselves with names, as they did not have dealings with the general public.

The reality is that a real art has history and tradition. The general public does not have access to seniors in the Chinese arts to ask questions. A two-week trip to Asia does not guarantee anything. It is common knowledge that many teaching today in North America were beginners in their native land and they did not spend the time to learn to use the art, as they were still children.

We are very fortunate to have our questions answered truthfully. Pak Mei seniors were doctors, engineers and businessmen, who were not about to stake their reputation on an art that didn't work.

Pak Mei has a rich history and tradition. Lee often speaks of the training carried on in the Chan Family Hall, where he taught Pak Mei to his todei. Young Chinese would often claim to know Pak Mei. They were terrible, merely waving hands at clouds. In reality Pak Mei is taught one form per year, sometimes two years. Anything else is embroidered legs and flowery arms. There is one other point I would like to make. Not only does our family have the reputation of having learned from a most excellent source, but we also have a reputation in the Chinese community as ones who can use it.

Lee's todei are working abroad. One is in England, while others are in different parts of Asia. They are professional men who do not have to teach for a living. Pak Mei is still underground in Hong Kong, which brings me to the subject of videos. As an educator, videos can enhance a class, provided the material is true. I have friends in other countries that often send me all kinds of material for my personal library and ask my opinion. I have seen everything put out by those claiming to do Pak Mai. One video of a demonstration in New York featured Pak Mei. Lee laughed and said not only were they were backwards, but also the wrong set! He also said they would have been better off trying to imitate the book, as their tiger fork set appeared to have been made up on the spot.

I have heard silly statements on who's to say what is real. I can assure you that we do not do a set called bok mei hu chuan. In Hung Kuen the measure of proficiency is tiger and crane. Pak Mei's measure is gau bo toi. Sup gee is the form allowed to be demonstrated in front of the general public. This would account for the many wrong interpretations that are out there.

In conclusion, I have often heard that there are more fakes in Hong Kong than here. Sadly, I personally think this is no longer true. North America is full of them. One of Lee's friends is a senior in wing chun and spent years with Yip Man. There were originally more sets. Perhaps Yip Man felt that the essence was in only three. Many styles have core forms. Hung Kuen was originally a style practiced by boat people to protect themselves from bandits. Cheung Lai Chun and his todei proved their art in life and death confrontations. These were real arts, with famous people who have left their mark in Chinese martial arts history. These men proved a styles worth in reality. They did not play games of tag, with rules and a referee to intervene if the going got tough.
Mike Doucet



back



email info@pakmei.net

NorthernMantis
11-24-2002, 03:46 PM
Hung Kuen is often referred to the Shaolin Temple. The truth, as told to Lee Pai by the head of the Chinese Free Masons and todei of Lam Sai Wing is different from the general story given to the public. Hung Kuen (hung gar) was developed for the boat people who practiced on the top decks of saipans. The low wide horse stance was used for stability. The well educated did not practice Hung gar because it came from the docks and boat people were considered a lower class. The claim to Shaolin was to make the style more reputable.

That's red boat hung ga. Wing Lam has an article explaining that there are different variations of hung kuen and there are some that do not have ties to the shaolin temple including the fact that some hung styles have been mistaken for shaolin.

However some "hung" styles do have ties to shaolin temple like xiao hongquan (small red fist) which is actually taught there and the more well known version made famous through the Wong Fei Hung lineage do calim some reasonable ties to shaolin. Then again I'm not hung ga exponent on the matter. That's what I read.

omarthefish
11-24-2002, 05:36 PM
Kind of funny you bringing up xiaohongquan as a Shaolin style. The first time I heard of it was when I moved to Xi'an and in trying to tell the locals what I previously trained in ran into all sorts of confusion because xiaohongquan and dahongquan are two local styles in Shaanxi. They are regarded strictly as village styles. Nowadays to make myself clear I simply tell them I played southern Shaolin. Or '3 dots of water on the side' hong quan. (a reference to the way the character is written. The most clear is simply the hong quan of Hong Xi Guan.

I was taught the original 5 tigers of canton and the burning of the southern temple story by my Sifu and I prefer that version to the boat story. Also is 'red boat' hong quan written 'red fist' or 'big fist' in Chinese?

At the end of the day I can't prove either story so I just take the one I like better. If the history's flawed, who cares? The gong-fu remains the same.

HuangKaiVun
11-24-2002, 07:08 PM
All I know is that the kung fu being practiced today is influenced by modern day practitioners

It may or not be from Shaolin.

But it definitely is from England, Australia, Europe - anywhere that these great arts are practiced today.

NorthernMantis
11-24-2002, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by omarthefish
Kind of funny you bringing up xiaohongquan as a Shaolin style. The first time I heard of it was when I moved to Xi'an and in trying to tell the locals what I previously trained in ran into all sorts of confusion because xiaohongquan and dahongquan are two local styles in Shaanxi. They are regarded strictly as village styles. Nowadays to make myself clear I simply tell them I played southern Shaolin. Or '3 dots of water on the side' hong quan. (a reference to the way the character is written. The most clear is simply the hong quan of Hong Xi Guan.

I was taught the original 5 tigers of canton and the burning of the southern temple story by my Sifu and I prefer that version to the boat story. Also is 'red boat' hong quan written 'red fist' or 'big fist' in Chinese?

At the end of the day I can't prove either story so I just take the one I like better. If the history's flawed, who cares? The gong-fu remains the same.

Tou she:D

Well don't think it would be written as either. I'm sort of confused why anyone would write red boat as red fist or big fist.:confused:

tnwingtsun
11-24-2002, 09:01 PM
Are you one of Mike's students?

David Jamieson
11-24-2002, 09:37 PM
Bok Mei is not Shaolin. White eyebrow never was Shaolin.

Shaolin has adopted and affected many styles of cma.

Choy and Li were Shaolin monks. Fut means buddha.

What does it all matter anyway, it's very hard to tell what the real history of China is when all you are going on is stories and legends.

I'm sure there are some writings somewhere that will clear this all up lickity split

:p

peace

fiercest tiger
11-24-2002, 09:44 PM
Hi,

Just wondering about some of the forms that was modified by CLC from dragon style. You said CLC never made up the forms, to my understanding he made up many!:) Can you clarify this form me?

Even in the 9 step book it says he learn 4 forms and added the rest from previous arts. ying jow lin kuil has a dragon salutaion and start!!

How many forms are there and how many moves are in the original forms?:)

FT

Shaolin Master
11-24-2002, 10:08 PM
Bak Mei is nor Shaolin nor Daoist it is 'Hakka'.

There was the Bak Mei as part of the 5 Elders (which is from a NOVEL!). Then there is the name given to this style by Cheung Lai Chun. Some people mixed up stories here and there (yes, chinese masters, businessmen and everyone can do it to for no reason other than they don't have answers but cannot lose face by not giving any so they make one up) and decided to fabricate the legend of Bak Mei.

The can hardly be called any "original" forms in Bak Mei simply because they are all traceable and broken down.

Jek Bo - 100% a shorter set of movements which are from Gao Bo Toi and modifications developed through time thereafter. The thing is so short it may have well been training drills (which all forms could be) that were later called forms.

Gao Bo Toi - Is dupposed to have been created by Lum A Haap (This is as told by Cheung Lai Chun and even as found in the scripts (manual) left to the family). Again even this set is fairly short and it was said that Lum A Haap developed it from Bo Bo Toi or Sam Bo Toi. Some thought it was Gum Bo Toi because of the characters but this again in some schools of thought are unclear because it is that the 3*Sam Bo Toi would give 9 Bo Toi as found in the set. Some of Cheung's tiger flavour then enhanced the simple components that once were.

Meng Fu Chut Lum - Is definately developed by Cheung Lai Chun. In fact it went through various modifications before becoming what was popularly known.

The rest well are even more obvious from other styles. Sup Ji Kuen, Sam Mun, Nim Kiu, Sup Bat Mo etc...

Cheung Lai Chun was an excellent martial artist with superb skills, the art that he passed on is unrefutably real but the historical imperfections and the development of the art have been misrepresented.

Therefore Mike Doucet though sounding nice blunt and upfront in his writing has not researched nor studied enough 'chinese' martial arts to understand the root nor the basis of this style. A single source makes for myths and legends not history.

Regards
Wu Chan Long

PS (FT) : Diego only cut the piece from somewhere, Mike Doucet (end of text) seems to be the writer. Hope all is well.

fiercest tiger
11-24-2002, 10:24 PM
Hows things mate? Nice breakdowns although i do have some bak mei that is o'mei and non hakka related. I think clc taught hakka people so they made it hakka pak mei. CLC bak mei has been modified and added to thats for sure.

Mung fu was made up by CLC as well, and again different versions of this everytwhere i have 3 versions. all different!!:rolleyes:

anyway hoep all is well there , you lucky *******!

FT:)

diego
11-25-2002, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by tnwingtsun
Are you one of Mike's students?

Hello, no i'm actually without a teacher right now, just practise my hopgar basic's. Since the clf guys are going at it, i thought i would post this " wich i found searching for a clf site" to see if i could bring some of the wing chunners over so we could have a old school royal rumble on the kfo southern forum...I mean just the hung is for boatmen of the low class, should be about twenty pages just the varying hung clans vs ego, all online, here...In this Day :rolleyes: i mean :p :D

Seriously, just felt kind of foolish when i posted this. Also, am surprised so many replie's already:)

So, you look like you do wing chun, what do you think about there bieng more sets, and maybe ip man thought three was good enough?... ;) should be a curious debate, never before seen on a martial art internet forum.:eek:

So when did style-bashing get free riegn?, i mean the spm's got bannd'ed....:cool: why do the clf's get a go, without warnings?.
So, since it's throw **** on styles face week, i seriously think we should get the wing chunners over here, then the hung red fists and boaters can stop by, and maybe we can get to the bottom of the shoalin myth.


This post has been a joke, but contemplating how i should end it as i just did, im wondering...Since the 70s styles like wing chun and other southerns, have been going through much inhouse debate within differant branches of thier own system. I'm curious, have scholars and masters teamed up at a university level and brainstormed all the southern kf myths and legends, and then crossreferenced the dates, etc with Historical Records from the South?.
I'm guessing no, as choy li fut cant even figure out who thier founders are, im guessing it would take another millennia to actuall find out why thier is a chee sim monk in wing chun and hung gar and 5 ancestor legends etc.

if they share similar roots simply because of era and location that would be great, but why is the same monks attributted to these styles?, is it like the article says familys of farmers and gangsters/warlords made the styles?. Ifso when did these legends start-up, and what kind of factors could anyone explain to me, how say the name chee sim...if a legend, could be referanced in two totally differrant systems of hung and wing, like say boaters made them or two totally unrelated familys made them, when did legend become truth, because the founder would know he made it, but when did his students think the great shaolin monk made it...then how could two tottally differant masters one from hung one from wing, cliam the same dude?.

Is this confusing to some of you?, if not clear it up for those who seem to be having troubles:D

justarant, take what you want...don't forget to leave the change



unless you ego/kelvin want to add your pence...stick it in yer arse matey....:) no-fuccing doubt;)

Lau
11-26-2002, 07:22 AM
Shaolin Master,

I have also read the article which said that kieuw bo teau (nine step push) was developed from Lung Ying with great interest. But if I combine that with your statements on Jek Bo ("developed from kieuw bo teau") and Sip Pat Mo kiu ("comes from another style") and Mang fu ("created by Cheung Lai Chuen") than you say that there is no "original" Pak Mei . And that Pak Mei is a variation based on old session Lung Ying.

As a Pak Mei practitioner I think I could live with that (but I am not convinced if that, or any other history, is the truth) since I think that Cheung Lai Chuen did a great job on it , although I than would like to understand where sip pat mo kiu comes from. Do you have any idea on that?

But, since we are on this topic, what does this say about the other Hakka styles? Lung Ying has a same sort of history. Lam Yiu Kwai also came from the Wai Yeung area and learned from a mysterious monk and (if I remember well) Lau Sui also came from Wai Yeung and learned from a monk. What does it say about their lineages. Can they be trusted?

I once heard that these 3 Hakka arts, Lung Ying, Southern Mantis and Pak Mei developed from the same style. And that starts sounding more logical as I read and hear more.

Regards, Lau

meltdawn
11-26-2002, 08:06 AM
Lau:
"I once heard that these 3 Hakka arts, Lung Ying, Southern Mantis and Pak Mei developed from the same style. And that starts sounding more logical as I read and hear more."

Drag out some of the old tea house stories! Where's Wilson???

Given the limited exposure I've had to pak mei and nam tong long, I can see some common ground. Where/if the splits occurred is a very interesting topic. I now see these arts as totally individual and distinct. Even within each, there are huge transgressions from the tree in some schools. So I might venture to say that perhaps the lack of attention to detail (either in practice or in viewing) in any of these arts might lead one to think they are closer than they are. Plausible?

sanjia
11-26-2002, 10:07 AM
Meltdawn : "So I might venture to say that perhaps the lack of attention to detail (either in practice or in viewing) in any of these arts might lead one to think they are closer than they are. Plausible?"

I think that this is quite plausible. I often find that when playing hands, there will be, 'Pak Mei does this, and Dragon does this' type of scenario, whereby although seemingly very similar the 'attitude' if you will, is quite different. I cannot see for the life of me where Jik Bo comes from Lung Ying however, and it seems fairly obvious to me that Gou Bou Toi comes after Jik Bo, and not that Jik Bo was made from Gou Bo Toi, which again seems to me unlike Lung Ying. Perhaps I am not looking for what may or may not be there, I don't know.
In terms of sets, per se, and of watching them, I don't personally see where one could confuse the two, apart from the aforementioned similarities in terms of some hands, their method, certainly to me, and indeed my teachers, is different.
I firmly believe however that there is and has been some mixing of Lung Ying and Pak Mei sets, specifically by some older teachers of both systems, maybe here is where some confusion lies.

Mark

Bolt
11-26-2002, 03:36 PM
The links between these Hakka styles has been topic of discussion before. At least as far as southern mantis goes, I don't think there's any link beyond sijo's knowing each other. Very few similarities in style that I'm aware of. I have heard that there were 3 original Bai Mei forms. The others were integrated or adapted to Bai Mei style and form. Do any of you Bai Mei practitioners recognize any forms as "treasure sets"?

fiercest tiger
11-26-2002, 05:09 PM
The 9 step and 18 devils bridge are real but was modified alot by Grandmanster CLC.

Bak mei monk was from omei mountain and wasnt hakka. CLC was hakka so when he modified it , it became bak mei hakka.


FT:)

Yum Cha
11-26-2002, 05:44 PM
An interesting turn of topic.

How close is close? What does the "same" mean?

Maybe if we look at the cosmos (gee, what a cosmic guy, eh?).

All the evolution of the short-armed traditional "family-based", "Village-based" , "temple-based", "Hakka-based" southern Kung Fu. Go back to its primordial chaotic roots. Soon the bits begin to stick together and spin off into their own "Planets." In their most recent incarnation, the arts contained in the styles we're referring to, and the multitude of others we aren't, are simply those planets.

Those from the same cosmic stuff as ours can still form slightly different planets, agreed?

Led by heros, monks, villians, prize-fighters, whatever, these styles were forged in sterner times, often brutally, but nevertheless proven. Often by friends or rivals from the same region.

So it comes down to what subtlty did each "Grand Master" bring to it to bond it together. That's the real issue.

The relationship between Grand Masters Cheung Lai Cheun and Lam Yeu Gwai is well documented.

SM, I have a question to ponder.

I can accept that the Pak Mei patterns came from Cheung Lai Cheuns interpretation and selection of the patterns he learned throughout his life. The origins of many of his patterns are a topic we've often discussed. I have always been of the belief that he learned at least 2 or 3 sets at the Gong How Gee, as reported in the book by Un, but I'm open to the possibilities...interpretations, rennovations, reinventions...

Then the question remains, what did he learn at the temple? What was bestowed by the monks upon a prize-fighter? How did he use this gift to blend his lifetimes training and technique into Pak Mei?

Perhaps the only answer is in the question itself.

Third Degree
11-26-2002, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by Shaolin Master

Therefore Mike Doucet though sounding nice blunt and upfront in his writing has not researched nor studied enough 'chinese' martial arts to understand the root nor the basis of this style.


Mike Doucet seems to do as he pleases from what I hear. I've heard that Cheung Beng Lam is very unhappy with Mike Doucet for using the picture of Cheung Beng Lam sat down at the restaurant.

Cheung Beng Lam went mad as the use of the picture implies that he and Mike Doucet are good buddies etc. and so the picture is obviously used as some sort of marketing ploy.

Yum Cha
11-26-2002, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Third Degree



...I've heard that Cheung Beng Lam is very unhappy with Mike Doucet for using the picture of Cheung Beng Lam sat down at the restaurant.

Cheung Beng Lam went mad as the use of the picture implies that he and Mike Doucet are good buddies etc. and so the picture is obviously used as some sort of marketing ploy.


Perhaps you are mistaken, you'll find that picture on the Chinese site at http://pakmei.in2000.com/ , the site of the people that hosted that dinner.

So, tell us more about yourself....

fiercest tiger
11-26-2002, 07:41 PM
LOL :D

fiercest tiger
11-26-2002, 11:47 PM
Guys,

Has anyone heard that all forms are 108 moves but were shortened during the mid 1900's ?

any comments?

FT:)

Sui
11-27-2002, 09:32 PM
oh come i can't believe you guys and gals don't know.i've been following and now it comes to a sudden holt or no-one wants to say?it is trivia thought what f.t is asking.

btw hi f.t and yum

Sui
11-27-2002, 09:44 PM
intresting sm would you like to meet?i would like much to touch your hands?

sui

Sui
11-27-2002, 09:48 PM
sm why retract your good post are you still in hk/china?

Shaolin Master
11-27-2002, 09:59 PM
I retracted because too much info. I pick and choose when to give out what.

yes, still in china ( iam here for a few years). I will be visiting again Guangzhou, Foshan, zhongshan, zhuhai next year after I finish business in Fujian. You can meet me if you have time (it will be in spring holiday). My students will be in Hongkong for a few days before coming to visit me, they can give you a kick if you'd like. :)

touch my hands in the 'martial way' or in the 'sui way' ...I know you like it. :D

fiercest tiger
11-27-2002, 10:08 PM
Ah man, why do that? Please share and help everyone!!

put it back up!:)

FT

Sui
11-27-2002, 10:15 PM
how many studs does it take to overthrow sui?

the answer:how many you got?lol

of course the ma way i'm no monster.but you to much info i would like to see if your correct thats all.especially the sipp bat mor.

we'll wait till spring holiday then.cheers sui:)

Shaolin Master
11-27-2002, 10:52 PM
I'll meet you in the SaiSaoGan you show me yours I'll show you mine and then we'll sup bat mo......who mo best must take the other to the anmo place :D

But if you want to walk on the road one must not fall down.

sorry FT, but you know somethings are best not said until the time is right ;)

Sui
11-27-2002, 11:04 PM
hey sm i'm starting to like you.your alright in my book
SaiSaoGan wheres that,i'm gonna have to get a map,is it in china?

even i'm scared of my mor.you will see them for sure,but don't blame me for continuous nightmares.so to the place i'm sure you can't reach there.


sui

fiercest tiger
11-28-2002, 04:34 AM
Hi SUI,

Nightmare on sui street! You and shaolin master holding hands is this a bak mei mardi gras?:eek: Yum cha will be there he was in last years float with his head band on....lol

shaolin master,

Ok, can you maybe write alittle of what you posted.....please?:) If i show you mine you must show yours? Haahahaha ok ill be on the float too right next to sui and yummy and cannon dont forget him in my G STRING.


ft:)

Diamond Talons
11-28-2002, 07:19 AM
Yum Cha is the question really what did he learn at the temple or is it what was it that was refined in the temple?

EAZ
11-28-2002, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by fiercest tiger
The 9 step and 18 devils bridge are real but was modified alot by Grandmanster CLC.

Bak mei monk was from omei mountain and wasnt hakka. CLC was hakka so when he modified it , it became bak mei hakka.
FT:)


I think this touches upon the real issue of PM.

But can it be made clear with any certainty that there are other lineages of PM outside of CLC or not?

There is Eddie Chong I think his name is in SF who claims a different lineage. I know nothing of this beyond what is written on the web site.

Then there are various Gunagzhou lineages which aparently speak (in some cases only) of other teachers other then CLC.

FYI there was (is) a Chinese monk in Vietnam (Monk Siu Sim) who was around in the 1980s over 100 years old at the time who did teach to some Chinese and a Vietnamese person or two who was completely unrelated to CLC and did not teach ANY of the forms of CLC from what I understand, at least not in there present form, (but maybe as FT suggests in some other form) but claimed to be from monastery in China where what is called PM was taught. However he did teach a system of power generation plus meditation, and staff form (NOTE: this power generation was not TTFC, etc... )

My sifu as well as one of his students and his niece and nephew met him over a certain period of time before emigrating to Canada. Note that we do not trace our lineage to this person, but from a student of CLC.

I am currently trying to find out more from the Chinese Viet community. On my next trip to Vietnam with my sifu I hope to learn more.

Does ANYONE have ANY INFORMATION regarding other PM teachers outside of CLC's students?

Regarding 108 movements changed in mid 1900s: perhaps you meant mid 1800s or something else since it is clear from Vietnamese lineage that as far back as 1930 there were NOT 108 movements taught.


EAZ

Yum Cha
11-28-2002, 04:38 PM
Dimond - Learned? Refined? Discovered? Focussed? All aspects, if you will.

It wasn't a lifetime he spent there, what 2-4 years? Am I horribly mistaken?

As the core techniques of the style are (for the sake of a simplified discussion) a "Greatest Hits" of SiJo Cheung's traditional southern Kung Fu, what was SiJo Cheung's great discovery?

One of the measures of a style is the ability for a Master to pass it on - not referring to personality or intelligence, I only mean, is it something a normal person can be trained into, or is his prowess only due to some exceptional ability, strength, size, speed, etc...

FT
- in a G-string?! Why did you have to create that image? <shivvers>

108 Moves - I wish we could entice Mantis108 into commenting on this topic, he had some very interesting numerology discussion.

I can say that I tried to count, but couldn't figure out what to count. For example, is reach out, bik bu, grab, pull back, bik bu, punch, 6 or 3 or 2 moves or 1? Is a stance advance counted different to a hand technique? Is Mor Que one move, or 3? Its taught as 3, then becomes one. You would have to think that 108 moves would be used as a training tool, thus applied to beginners in a simplified form.... It takes you to an interesting viewpoint of the patterns, for sure... I know what I'm doing tomorrow...

Hi Sui,
Any interesting news from the orient?

fiercest tiger
11-28-2002, 04:47 PM
Yummy,

YES, Mardi Gras is getting close mate, any ideas on what colours for the bak mei float? I'll run by sifu andy as well im sure he will get the gay music theme and set it off.:) Your Brother Mick will love the leather outfit i got him or the fluff number he likes...lol:)

At the end does it really matter what you have if you have a great sifu and the forms and training is benifical? You do your way, i do mine doesnt matter as we all get something out of it right. Southern mantis was supposively 108 form as well as taiji 108 it was made to a shorter form of 54 or 84 what ever...

any comments, where is mantis 108 these days?

FT:)

Diamond Talons
11-28-2002, 06:32 PM
I was getting to the point that going to the temple is a common set piece in the history of some arts. Mostly Hakka from those I've been told. Big difference between refinement and an infusion of new material that replaces what once was. At least in my mind.

If you don't know where 108 Hakka Tong Long is then you shouldn't be told.

Ao Qin
11-28-2002, 07:04 PM
Where is "108 Hakka Tong Long"? I looked on the map, but I couldn't find it in Canada!

Oh right, I "shouldn't be told"...

Yum Cha
11-28-2002, 07:19 PM
I used to have a friend that took cooking lessons at 106 Hakka Tong Long, it must be next door.

Diamond, Mantis 108 is a person, whom perhaps you'll have the opportunity to meet if he picks up this thread.

Shaolin Master
11-28-2002, 07:38 PM
9-18-36-54-72-108 : Just numbers......

PS : Taiji is still 108 in some styles or some lineages. NamTonglong still is 108 as well, Bak Mei is also still 108 as well...it depends how do you put it together.

Can we have a 108 float in the mardi gras

fiercest tiger
11-28-2002, 08:11 PM
so there is a 108 bak mei?:)

108 float for sure with 108 bak meist doing single power...lol

Yummy,

Thats next door to BBQ King not near the chinese theatres....lol


FT

Shaolin Master
11-28-2002, 09:22 PM
Hey but it is next door to BBQ King, Up the stairs it is where the chinese and korean gangs hang out, including the fruit market gangs, Drgaons 108 and Sun Tong gangs,....so hey I think Yum Cha is on to something it must be the Hakka Fist Crib of 108......
BBQ king had more money and took 108 so the Hakka kids had to lease 106 .... :D :D :D

Yum Cha
11-28-2002, 09:25 PM
Diamond. You make a good point, and it is not lost on me. Are you suggesting that it is your contention he refined his knowledge as opposed to augmenting it?

I can accept that, as one of a number of alternatives, or perhaps one component of his growth. At his level, one would expect no less, and this is perhaps the secret ingredient in itself, his own flavour.

In all instances, one could say that Sijo Cheung came away from the temple with new (evolved) knowledge or understanding. Perhaps "the power generation system" as so many like to call it?

What was the method used to teach it?


108 Steps,
OK, 108 steps is gaining momentum, the question still remains, how do you count them? It has always interested me that the senior patterns seem to be the same length...

PS, there is some new stuff up on our website from Sifu
http://www.aaron.net.au/pak_mei/master.html
if you read chinese...

Shaolin Master
11-28-2002, 09:49 PM
The little article essentially introduces then proposes JikBo as important foundation in Geng Lik 'power development. then about coordinating both external and internal components as well as TTFC, with Yi (Mind) being the key. A little about Hard & Soft attributes and following the heart(intention). A Jit about comprehending the essence and passing generations. then stating the australian group led by Leung.
lineage chart and a sorry if anyone was left out line.

Shaolin Master
11-28-2002, 09:53 PM
- The Temple : My Luohan grandteacher Shi Gao Ceng passed/resided there for a short while in 1920's-30's. No martial practice of the BaiMei nature recorded at that time though he did teach there (mainly buddhism). PS : Buddhist temple ? A gift may not always be martial but it can enhance your martial ability 10-fold without a single movement. who knows?

-What is MOST important is that all arts from the genuine grandmasters (CLC LYG etc.) are wonderful and a treasure to us all. Irrespective of the past source or name. The skill and transmission is genuine that is all.

-To teach it! did he teach it! practice and repetition. Effective only :-)

Shaolin Master
11-28-2002, 09:55 PM
The 108 counting....

Yum Cha
your teacher must have given you the quan pu (like the poem of the sets/forms) these will identify the numbers.

Yum Cha
11-28-2002, 10:34 PM
Well said SM. The "Grandmasters" of our Sijo's generation are the salient features. Kung Fu following the Man, not the Style.

Also, your comment on buddhism bringing a stronger Mind, and thus wider empowerment (if I may paraphrase) is not too different to what I believe Diamond was eluding to. You'd have to consider it to some extent.

Who was Sijo at this time? A travelling prizefighter with particular habits associated with his livelyhood? Certainly a hard man, certainly a ferocious fighter. Hardly the "internal" type in his early years you could conclude? We know he was badly injured as a child, broken bones. Not from a wealthy family. When did he learn his medicine?

As far as the poems go, how many moves in, "build a bridge then break it with a devil from below, double twisting dragon tails will chase the enemy to death?" <grin>

It really is academic though, it makes you tear it down to the smallest detail, and anything that makes you look at the fundamentals and structure is good effort.

Pak Mei student
11-29-2002, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by fiercest tiger
The 9 step and 18 devils bridge are real but was modified alot by Grandmanster CLC.

Bak mei monk was from omei mountain and wasnt hakka. CLC was hakka so when he modified it , it became bak mei hakka.


FT:)

really? How do you know? You actually see clc modifies it. Have you been into omei mountain?

Pak Mei student
11-29-2002, 12:13 AM
sd

Pak Mei student
11-29-2002, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by Sui
intresting sm would you like to meet?i would like much to touch your hands?

sui


really? Are you touching hands through cyber space?

Pak Mei student
11-29-2002, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by EAZ



I am currently trying to find out more from the Chinese Viet community. On my next trip to Vietnam with my sifu I hope to learn more.

Does ANYONE have ANY INFORMATION regarding other PM teachers outside of CLC's students?


EAZ

Yes. There is abundant information in www.sina.com
Unfortunately, most of you can only read english.

There are other branch of PM outside of CLC.
Dim Lik kuen, OMEI kuen, etc

Lau
11-29-2002, 01:44 AM
"There are other branch of PM outside of CLC. Dim Lik kuen, OMEI kuen, etc"

Hi Pakmeistudent,
I'm looking foreward to yam cha in January, I am very interested to hear more about this!
Regard, Lau

fiercest tiger
11-29-2002, 03:30 AM
LOL no i wasnt around, was you?:) anyway its hear say im telling what i know you can take it as a grain of salt which you have. No big deal!

So you know of a omei branch can you tell us more?

Whats dim lik mean? something power?

regards
FT

Pak Mei student
11-29-2002, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by fiercest tiger
LOL no i wasnt around, was you?:) anyway its hear say im telling what i know you can take it as a grain of salt which you have. No big deal!

So you know of a omei branch can you tell us more?

Whats dim lik mean? something power?

regards
FT

Simple. I am asking you this.
What qualifies you to judge the CLC? Can you tell me specifically?

Since, you are critical of CLC's reputation on the forum.

For example, Jet Li comments Bruce Lee as one of the best martial artist in the world. Jet Li himself win the wushu champion six times.

What is your qualification on Pak Mei family? So, Are you blabbing something from your mouth?

If you are 6 times world wushu champion,then i would keep my mouth shut.

hmm. Unfortunately, you are a little sifu in a small dojo. he he.

fiercest tiger
11-29-2002, 03:50 AM
Nothing makes me qualified and ill say what i like on a forum, i havent dissed CLC bak mei at all, i study YKM that is CLC bak mei so i can say what i please about what i know.

Why you so insecure, this is all talk and we are all learning something (maybe) but you dont like this topic you dont have to post.

Yes im a little sifu in a small kwoon so your point is?


LOL

fiercest tiger
11-29-2002, 04:15 AM

Diamond Talons
11-29-2002, 06:26 AM
Yum Cha I am suggesting that the frequent referral to time in the temple speaks to refinement on the inside of the person not external movement. In each case the person had plenty & went in & came out much different much improved. Can't be because they had all that much more time to practice & can't be new external stuff as you said the time in wasn't that great. Takes 1 life time to do right & takes 2 life times if first time is wrong. If I am right then the differences in a hand of the same name makes good sense. If I am wrong then why the differences?

What can you say about the Hakka Tong Long you have seen there? Do you see a common root & if yes then can you name it or say it? Does the hand play as you've seen in other places or different & if different how so?

Sui
11-30-2002, 01:01 AM
hahaahaha.f.t of course he wasn't there,pre-mentral student.lol he doesn't show when he challenges either.lol

throught cyber space no we aren't touching hands between your ears.lol
i can't wait to see you pms,one day,one day you will be called and that day.........lol.would i waist my time on yoy? yes i would and enjoy all 3 seconds of it.lol

Shaolin Master
11-30-2002, 04:17 AM
..hehe PMS

No one is judging CLC rather he is admired. People are merely discussing about the origins and development of Bak Mei. CLC being central to that notion.

Dim Lik Kuen (Dien Li Quan) you must be kidding no link to Bak Mei and Emei Quan no such thing it is only a classification of martial arts from Emei.

Anways to shed some finger food on the whole Emei Baimei thingy :

In Emei arts there is a style Babuhuzhang that has as an origin a Bai Mei figure. Also there is Bai Mei Quan itself in Emei which has only one long set and does not resemble the CLC bai mei too much. It consists of complex stepping and a myriad of palming motions.

regarding www.sina.com same deal as here a lot of chinese nutso's bringing intricate ideas into discussion. It does not mean either is right or wrong.

I have 'personally' seen many interpretations of Bai mei and heard explanations of its origins.

YUmCha,
Another quantum light Eddie Chong is incorrect in his history 'most' futshan bakmei can only trace to CLC via his early disciple. The style is older (or younger) but not different. If the forms are the same or similar then it is from CLC this is the final on that.

Jet Li is 'Wushu' champion yes. My old Shi Xiong trained with Wu Bin also 'Zhang Li'. However good the fundamentals the emphasis was in no way on combat. Bruce Lee likewise was defeated many times and only in the land of gullible USA could amount to seniority then as HKers needed a hero he became a hit there and then as China will lean on anyone that they can call their own to be famous they did. Even now every dog and his cat are teaching Bruce Lee's style in China ...but no one knows what blabber it is.

When are martial artists going to stop thinking about glory, medals and moviestars......if this is all there is in martial arts then I would have stopped when I was 8 years old.

Lastly, its not the size of your gwoon it is how you use it!

Diamond Talons, good point and it is in a more descriptive level what I inferred. Though this may not be the true fact!

Cheers:D

Diamond Talons
11-30-2002, 04:52 AM
Shaolin Master things such as this can hardly ever be called a true fact & I settle for most reasonable. Just stuff to ponder while resting from practice for me & not a burning bush issue.

fiercest tiger
11-30-2002, 02:19 PM
AMEN! :)

Well thanks for your understanding of this topic/thread its all talk thats what forums are about. Some people are insecure for some reasons i dont know. As for Eddie chongs bak mei i have seen some of their forms and are different to CLC bak mei kinda like a wingchun bak mei system as he is a wing chun guy as well i dont know if its mixed or its original as they say.:)

Hey have you bumped into any unusual styles since you have been in china, not the one you are learning now but anything completely different?:)

be easy
FT

Sui,

what up Dogg? hehehe hows things going with you?;)


We will all agree to disagree we may never know what is real and what isnt about bak mei, as long as we are all happy with our Sifu's and his teachings thats all that matters. :)

Shaolin Master
11-30-2002, 08:33 PM
The styles I am studying are rare as my teacher is 78 years old and the ZhangMen of the ZiMen style, he was sent up from the villages down south of the province specifically to teach me the style and the other two. His daughter is the chief teacher of the combat unit of the police force.

Rare arts to many to be told, I have been mainly seeking ZhangMen and their say on things before all is lost. This means on occassions learning some classics of the styles, and odd additional form or too and insights including family manuals if any or transcripts from grandmasters. I can only say my friend is an official and it makes it easier to get such things done. I always verify the content of everything (like cross checking). Tell me what you were specifically looking to know and email me because there are too many things.

Pak Mei student
12-01-2002, 01:02 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shaolin Master
[B]..hehe PMS

"No one is judging CLC rather he is admired. People are merely discussing about the origins and development of Bak Mei. CLC being central to that notion."


Yes. You are. One of the sample from FT, CLC modifies the style for money.


"Dim Lik Kuen (Dien Li Quan) you must be kidding no link to Bak Mei and Emei Quan no such thing it is only a classification of martial arts from Emei."

There are links from chinese websites.


"Anways to shed some finger food on the whole Emei Baimei thingy :"

My information is not irrelevant.

"In Emei arts there is a style Babuhuzhang that has as an origin a Bai Mei figure. Also there is Bai Mei Quan itself in Emei which has only one long set and does not resemble the CLC bai mei too much. It consists of complex stepping and a myriad of palming motions.

regarding www.sina.com same deal as here a lot of chinese nutso's bringing intricate ideas into discussion. It does not mean either is right or wrong. "


So, you are saying all these people are stupid. Which some of them won the wushu champion.

I wonder how good you really are!?


"I have 'personally' seen many interpretations of Bai mei and heard explanations of its origins. "


Since, you said 'personally". It means you have some background knowledge on Pak Mei style. If I am not mistaken, you are not a Pak mei practitioner.

What is your lineage? hmm. I thought you are hung ga practitioner.

Shalin master, I really admire you. I only know Pak Mei. You know every style in chinese martial arts. The taoist said a person can only use one knife to cut. You have many knives to cut, unfortunately you don't have one knife to cut.


"Jet Li is 'Wushu' champion yes. My old Shi Xiong trained with Wu Bin also 'Zhang Li'. However good the fundamentals the emphasis was in no way on combat. Bruce Lee likewise was defeated many times and only in the land of gullible USA could amount to seniority then as HKers needed a hero he became a hit there and then as China will lean on anyone that they can call their own to be famous they did. Even now every dog and his cat are teaching Bruce Lee's style in China ...but no one knows what blabber it is."

He hee . You are so funny.
Do you know the PLA and "Special forces"includes Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do booklet for their trainning manual?

he hee.
What do you mean gullible HKer? 99.9% HKer are chinese.

ARe you saying HKer aren't chinese?

Good comments to show your "understanding" of chinese history.
Any comments to embarrass your self, except your location is in China.

Pak Mei student
12-01-2002, 01:05 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shaolin Master
"The styles I am studying are rare as my teacher is 78 years old and the ZhangMen of the ZiMen style, he was sent up from the villages down south of the province specifically to teach me the style and the other two. His daughter is the chief teacher of the combat unit of the police force."

Wow. YOu know zi men, pak mei, hung ga, chow ga, northern praying mantis, southern praying mantis, hakka style, futsha hung ga,etc

Unfortunately, you don't have one knife to cut.

Pak Mei student
12-01-2002, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by Sui
hahaahaha.f.t of course he wasn't there,pre-mentral student.lol he doesn't show when he challenges either.lol

throught cyber space no we aren't touching hands between your ears.lol
i can't wait to see you pms,one day,one day you will be called and that day.........lol.would i waist my time on yoy? yes i would and enjoy all 3 seconds of it.lol

don't be a wimp. sui. Come out of the dark. If you are so brave. Just say, who you are. I am glad to meet you..

Pak Mei student
12-01-2002, 01:16 AM
Enjoy life everyone. bye bye.

ji way lung
12-01-2002, 07:50 AM
"CLC was hakka so when he modified it , it became bak mei hakka."

so i suppose if present day sifus modify what they know, then it will become american, british, australian, french, italian 'pak mei/wing chun/choy lee fut' etc. what kind of logic is that? an art is only what it is from its ethnic origins. if i learnt to play a native chinese instrument but i am french, and the way i perform and modify what i have been taught only varies slightly, does that mean 'x' instrument is now french? :rolleyes:

Diamond Talons
12-01-2002, 09:01 AM
Yes JWL that is what it means. You are wrong. Art is not a culture & all art is universal & that's what makes it art because it speaks to many people across all barriers & across time itself. Art is the closest thing to immortal that man has created & even then some say man did not create but that God gave as a gift. You want to be a racist then do it & live in your small little dying world.
When I cross hands I fight the man & all that he is from his culture, family and values & not something else.

fiercest tiger
12-01-2002, 02:15 PM
Yes, CLC did teach differently for money and there is nothing wrong with that, all masters did, dont let anyone tell you otherwise.

I cant believe you are still going on about this after all this time?



:rolleyes:

FT

Yum Cha
12-01-2002, 05:22 PM
Excuse me guys while I grab whats left of the Pork Bau and Har Gau and my pot of Bo Li and dive under the table here by the wall as the chairs and beer bottles start flying!

<lots of posts dropped in as I was writing, SM already sorta covered this, but nevertheless...>


Originally posted by Diamond Talons
Yum Cha I am suggesting that the frequent referral to time in the temple speaks to refinement on the inside of the person not external movement. In each case the person had plenty & went in & came out much different much improved.

>>>> A good point, indeed, as mentioned before, perhaps the essence <<<

Can't be because they had all that much more time to practice & can't be new external stuff as you said the time in wasn't that great.

>>>> Would you be able to agree that the internal growth found a physical manifestation in technique?

Takes 1 life time to do right & takes 2 life times if first time is wrong. If I am right then the differences in a hand of the same name makes good sense. If I am wrong then why the differences?

>>>> You're shifting gears here a bit, but I follow you. I disagree. It doesn't take a second lifetime to focus a student missing some element of the art. I've seen high-level players respond to Sifu's training and transform in less than a year. Perhaps as also evidenced by Sijo's tenure at the temple?

>>>>Semantics aside, I think we are trying to make the same point, that Sijo didn't learn a handfull of patterns and come away from the Temple a Master. He underwent a great change mostlikely both in his outlook, self-understanding and his approach to things martial, but one can only speculate about what really happened, right?

What can you say about the Hakka Tong Long you have seen there? Do you see a common root & if yes then can you name it or say it? Does the hand play as you've seen in other places or different & if different how so?

>>>> I am primarially ignorant of Southern Praying Mantis. What little I have seen seems very similar to Pak Mei, at face value, with the hand techniques, TTFC, stance. I know a few guys that know senior Tong Long players in Australia and NZ, and they say there's lots of transferability between the two.

The hand play I've seen is firstly, clearly play (I believe it isn't always so...), with all that entales, and secondly not the way I would touch hands instinctively if presented with the same option. FWIW

Diamond Talons
12-01-2002, 07:17 PM
Interesting answers & thanks YC. Yes I think it was & is more of internal or way of looking at things than physical stuff & the change inside shows outside. 2 life times is a way of saying it takes twice as much work to get it proper after learning it wrongly & is not a rule just a common guideline of sorts. Sorry about the gears. Good answers on the Pak Mei and Hakka Tong Long parts also & conforms to the story of Hung Mei being Pak Mei's younger brother & beating him in gong sau. Just a story & not fact so PM people please don't start with politics. Some differences in how we create power and some things the same also. More the same with PM than different with old frame Hakka Tong Long. Not the case with the newer HTL. Play takes many forms depending on the players. My Sifu and I never touch hands or play hands we cross hands. Very real, very dangerous & very necessary for getting to where I want to be. The other ways are fun & I leave such stuff to people who want to do it that way because it is their choice. Not right or wrong as a rule just not right for me.

fiercest tiger
12-01-2002, 07:29 PM
Hi,

when you mean internal are you talking about, breathing TTFC , or thinking of everything as internal in pak mei?

Just trying to understand what you mean as internal, i also see internal as slow moving meditation and chi kung like i do, not the fast forms that are explosive using internal breathing, but a softer exercise etc.

If that makes sense?

:)FT

Pak Mei student
12-01-2002, 08:10 PM
Mr. Shalon Master

Where are you?

You know every style.( pak mei, hung ga, chow gar, choy lay fat, futshun chi kung,southern praying mantis). You are judging every family in the forum.

Which chinese martial arts family are you are good with?

What "PERSONAL" experience you have with Pak Mei? Can you describe it?

Unfortunately, I only have knowledge on Pak Mei. I only know a little bit of Tae Kwan Do, which is embarrasing.

Shaolin Master
12-01-2002, 09:21 PM
My contact details are below :

江西师萢大_ (江西省南昌市北京西路437号)
手机 :13870660117

Please feel free to contact me anytime.

I feel it unecessary to respond to your questions as you are in defensive mode and seem to have been hurt in some way even though I didn't even use my knife.

What is wrong you cannot handle other's opinions. Why don't you become friendly it will better for everyone.

I practice what I like and do as I wish (I never studied Chow Ga nor Choylayfut).

Lucky I am not Daoist as all roads lead to the way, all roads are the way whilst all roads also lead nowhere. So no matter I or anyone else does, it is futile for you to become inflicted.

Regards
吴禅龙

Sui
12-01-2002, 11:29 PM
its goink just ok here,f.t,hows it there?though i am a wimp.lol pms its allways the time of the month with you,and it shows.you had a chance to see for yourself but declined even from a wimp like me.lol.you could of seen for yourself,btw none of your si-dai's or si-hings turned up anyway.lolbut all is not lost,the challenge grows sooner and we will meet,i will be patiant..........

i believe in my experience tha w/c,p/m and t/l [hakka] in physical matter use the same joints in movement.eg.jap ma/kay ma.elboes and back.you may all diagree but i do honestly see this.
internaly,well i think that its questionable in the fact as do they all use ttfc?wich is no they don't.do they all use chi gung?no they don't not even the same spirit/ego.

yum cha are still drinking that tea?whatch out it'll give you a burning red thraot to when you swallow the eyes warter.....

tnwingtsun
12-02-2002, 04:28 AM
Who is your Sifu?

fiercest tiger
12-02-2002, 05:14 AM
Hey buddy,

all the best for xmas and new year ill call you soon and say good day. tell Dr WONG all the best actually ill email him myself and say it!:)

Sui
All is well here mate, hot as a mutha but pretty good, Bui jee 's students graded tonight and did well, i wasnt too hard on them but still they did quiet well.:)

shaolin master
I'll email you soon some questions ill get some together for you. You missed yum cha on sunday connon fist was there and the gang from here. was good to meet all the kfo people.

pak mei student

How are you?


FT:)

Diamond Talons
12-02-2002, 08:54 AM
I don't put parts of the whole into boxes & look at them like that FT so your questions are hard. From the slow chi gung a guy gets really connected to the body. From the mind things are seen that were always there just not recognized. The only answer I have is Yes to all your questions & the point I was trying to make focused mostly on understanding with chi gung & other stuff being part of the whole. I see the hand much clearer & deeper than I did years ago is this true for you too? Time in the Temple was time without the many concerns of every day life so learning what was brought in should take place quicker than outside the Temple, I think, not fact. SM thinks there was some stuff taught & that could be right. For me it is reasonable to think it wasn't so much what was taught as it was what was learned. People went in with different things & the Temple was the same & people came out with differences in the hand. Conclusion?

Bolt
12-02-2002, 02:14 PM
FYI, since the topic was brought up, sifu Chong claims the same lineage as these gentlemen http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=130
(Lau Siu Leung) I believe Zhong Luo is still in San Fransisco, but his father lives in Futsan.

Sui
12-05-2002, 09:30 PM
conclusion?am i parallel to?i guess not,but you at refining are you not?i can do nothing but agree with you on your last part.
i know who you are and believe it or not have always respected you,thats why i leave you to what you do.

in my experience chi-gung is not to connect but "to be"it can also be a dream?

maybe you do see clear and deep,which is greater than i,but the facts are[to me]philososophy as we speak on these forums.

agreed on the temple.

ideas as a man only god will be.

good to see you



f.t,your getting soft in your old age,or is it slow?anyway good to hear that bui studs did well,he knows how to work well and hard tell him from me.

Turiyan
12-12-2002, 08:14 PM
Daoist styles were practical and separate from religion. Daoist monks had no hang-ups regarding use. Pak Mei is an example of a Daoist style shrouded in mystery. The forms in Pak Mei were not made up by Cheung Lai Chun. He did, however, name the style after Pak Mei, the Taoist priest, to honour his teacher. The monks practicing these arts did not concern themselves with names, as they did not have dealings with the general public.

In comparison to the so called Buddhist martial arts. Yes. But what on earth is a Daoist priest (rhetorical question)?

Your right about the "seperation from religon" esp. when people with insight into the ancient texts realised that there is *nothing* spiritual, existential or trancendental about "the tao". Its a system of absolutes (spacially) described using primitive symbols and mythology.

The ancient canon says clearly that:

"War is an inauspitious affair..." and "Weapons are evil implements. Combat is 'contrary virtues'..."

Actually, the character XIONG is used in the texts, I dont like the "Inauspitious" its too abstract and "evil" is too simple. Its like calling Shamanism "witchcraft".

Xiong1 means "demonically possessed" and that does not leave much to the imagination. Dead languages are wonderful that way because the meanings can never be taken out of context.

Considering the following, this is more of a warning than an opinion:

"Taoists shun three generations of a family serving as Generals. Military teachings should not be carelessly transmitted, [therefore] should also not be transmitted." --Tai-Tsung Tzu



In conclusion, I have often heard that there are more fakes in Hong Kong than here. Sadly, I personally think this is no longer

EVERYTHING is fake in hong kong.

Link:
A critical look at chinese martial arts (http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/kohai/criticallook.htm)

"Heavenly offices: auspicious hours and days, yin and yang, facing toward and turning your back to... The Yellow Emporers victorys were a matter of human effort, that is all. Huang-di said: "Putting spirits and ghosts first is not as good as first investigating my own knowlege". This means that the Heavenly offices are nothing but human effort" --Wei Liao-tzu