Tai Chi Master/Twin Warriors

[couch]

Can anyone tell me the form that Jet Li is performing at the beginning and end of this movie?

Is it the Yang style? If so, which form?

Thanks.

[looking_up]

Probably government issue Yang. It's definitely not Chen. I'll let someone who really knows confirm...

[Brad]

It looks like something put together for the movie. Standardized Taiji with some Chen-ish type stuff thrown in maybe.

[jon]

The guys in the background are performing segments of Yang Chen Fu's 24 short form.
Jet looks to me like he is just improving.

[GLW]

The background form is 24 Posture - it is a contemporary routine based upon traditional Yang Style but NOT from Yang chengfu. In fact, Yang Chengfu's student, Fu Zhongwen, hated that routine. He was strict purest for traditional Yang form.

Jet Li's other routiens in the movie are taken from the competition routine and soem choreography thrown in.

[couch]

Looks like their all doing this form:

http://judo1.net/jns/class/tai_chi/yang_short_form_2.htm

They even show the Boxing of the Ears at the beginning.

The only thing that isn't in this form that I saw at the beginning of the movie is where your palm is horizontal and facing you at chest height and your other hand is pressing against the wrist with the palm to your opponent.

Is this movement made up? or is it in the expanded form?

Thanks for all the info!

[cha kuen]

interesting post

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[Kevin Wallbridge]

Li Tainji is responsible for the Yang 24. As GLW pointed out Fu Zhongwen (Yang Chengfu's nephew) hated this and all other short forms.

Couch, that sounds like like Ji/Squeezing. A part of grasp-sparrow's-tail. The drawings in the link you posted are actually incomplete for that movement series.

Isn't Jet Li doing "wushu" Chen while the others are doing the 24 behind him? Its been a while so I'd need to look at it again.

[jon]

Yang 24
Maybe someone might like to clear this up for me as its something im really not that sure on. My sifus english is not the best and my chinese in non existant. Sometimes getting an exact point or question accross can be difficault.

My Sifu teaches YCF Tai Chi traditionaly, my sifus Grandfather was a student of YCF.

In my school i actualy learnt the 24 AFTER i had learned the 108.
By this point my 108 was decent so i basicaly just was shown the order of the movements. We *never* practice this form in class and the most that its used for is the occasional demo when we
are short on time.
My sifu is also not a big fan of it and made mention that it was mainly for health and was not really a viable combat hand.
Ive only ever seen him start old people on this, everyone else starts with qigung and then moves strait to the 108.

I was always under the impression that YCF created the Yang 24 in his later life to teach to the many buisnessman who where paying him good money but had little time to train.
I seem to be getting the idea from this thread that the 24 had little to do with YCF himself, is this the case?

So to cut a long question short...
"Li Tainji is responsible for the Yang 24."
* Is this accurate and was this done before or after the death of Yang Chen Fu?


Can anyone also tell me if its a similar story with the gim.
I have two gim forms a long and a short, ive seen the short done many times by other schools and it seems to be a standard form.
The long has fundamentaly similar movements but is much more complicated and more intricate.
Can anyone tell me the orginator of the gim forms and weather or not YCF taught two or if the short is again a later invention?

Cheers to anyone who can answer my questions:D

[Brad]

I seem to be getting the idea from this thread that the 24 had little to do with YCF himself, is this the case?

So to cut a long question short...
"Li Tainji is responsible for the Yang 24."
* Is this accurate and was this done before or after the death of Yang Chen Fu?

Correct. The 24 form was created by Li Tian Ji(or a comitee headed by him-I'm not clear which), based mostly off the Yang style, but with a little Sun influence in the stepping. I think the date was 1956. It was pretty much made as a beginer set to teach some basic Taiji, and as something for an average busy citizen to do for health.

Also what short jian form are you talking about? 32? If so, I think that one's newer even than 24.

[count]

Im sure GLW or Kevin could be more specific, but there are a few things about your post that are just wrong.

By this point my 108 was decent so i basicaly just was shown the order of the movements.
I don't think the 24 and the 108 are the same forms. Even though some of the form names are the same they are different applications. They are performed differently and the stepping is different.

I was always under the impression that YCF created the Yang 24 in his later life to teach to the many buisnessman who where paying him good money but had little time to train.
No, the 24 is a state sponsored version of Yang style. Even though the 24 is based on Yang style, it is sythisized and simplified for the masses. It was comissioned by the communist party and created in the '50's by several of the Yang masters of the day so that it could be taught uniformally to everyone. This was sometime after Yang Chen Fu's hay day.


Can anyone also tell me if its a similar story with the gim.
There is also a sword form which follows the movements philosophy of the 24. There are also two man versions of both.

*Note: This does not imply anything about it's "combat effectivness"! All tai chi chuan can be combat effective! It is up to the instructor's and the student's understanding to make it what it is!

ALSO, I seem to recall the movie and the monks in the background were infact doing the 24 form. Jet Li is just doing, well, Jet Li.

:D

[GLW]

In the west, Li Tianji is often given credit with creating the 24 form. However, the routine was not exactly created by one person. As was common at that time, it was a group effort. After the initial work, it was reviewed by many, modified a bit, and then finalized. Li's name was put on it by many but it was far from a solo effort.

After the creation of the form, the promotion by the government and others made it something important. Otherwise, it would be similar to many of the other modern routines tucked away in the background.

As for differences in 24 and the traditional Yang form...it starts in the basic Gong Bu Step. 24 specifies a shift back with the toe of the front foot rising and then pivoting. It also allows for an interim Ding bu step (feet together) in the middle of the step for balance.

Similarly, in the kick with heal, there is a step up to Ding bu stance just before the kick. Traditional Yang does not have the kicking foot being touched - much harder on balance in the traditional form.

Wave hands is completely different from 24 to traditional. Step Back and whirl arms (or repulse monkey) is similar but the timing of how the foot moves back with the arm movements is different.

Lower Snake Body is different - 24 uses more of a Pu Bu stance and the palm is turned to face you as you shift back in 24. Bai Lan Chui - Parry down and punch is completely different.

The biggest notable difference is probably Lan Xiaowei - Grasp Sparrows Tail. The Yang Peng is angled and has the non-Peng hand close to the wrist while in 24, the Peng arm is level and the other hand is more like part horse's mane. The Lu, rllback is bigger and easier to do in 24. The Ji - press is similar but the arm is more level in 24. The An - Press - is arcing in a virtical plane in 24 while the Yang method is more linear and its circles are smaller.

My descriptions are not exactly clear - probably - and there are those who confuse the two but I am speaking from the orthodox method of doing 24 and from the way Fu zhongwen did traditional Yang. (which, by the way, is counted as 85 posture by many in china - by not counting things done on both sides 2 or 3 times....)

[count]

Your descriptions were great. I totally understood what you were saying. That's basically some of what I see as the differences too. One thing though. I always thought that the difference in the count between 108 and 85 Yang form was not because of repetitions but because certain forms are not thought of anything more than transitions. Like shoulder stroke between single whip and crane spreads wings. Just a thought. I never tried to count the exact number anyway.:D

[couch]

There is no "Traditional" 24 short form?

It was only made up for state purposes? Or is there a traditional form?

If I want the "real deal" I should learn the 108 Movements, as the 24 are included in this form?

I'm just trying to clarify...there's too much information!

Information overload!

And, does anyone practice the traditional Yang forms in Calgary, Alberta? We have a couple of schools here that teach modified tai chi.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Xu Gongwei told me that while there was an official committy tasked with creating the simplified form, it was Li Tainji who put the stamp on in it. In effect it is in the style prefered by Li Tainji, so while not a solo effort it still largely bears the mark of a single master. I'm not trying to split hairs, its just that there is a reason that it has such a different flavour from the Yang family forms.

So, no there is no traditional 24 form.

The straight sword form comes from Chen Weiming (the one that YZD teaches). So its another 20th century addition. Fu Zhongwen said that before this time there were sword drills, for straightsword and broadsword, but no forms within the family (just like the spear to this day).

[GLW]

Fu Zhongwen was very knowledgable about the history of the forms...and had his definite take on things.

He would talk at length on the sword or barehand but not that much on the sabre. Maybe I just didn't get lucky on that count though...

While 24 was based upon Yang form but is NOT Yang...the companion set - 32 sword is similarly based heavily on the Yang sword routine. They sort of go hand in hand... although there seems to me to be more similarity in method from 32 sword to Yang's sword than 24 to Yang barehand. Maybe this is because you CAN separate form and function with barehand but you can't gt too far from the application with a sword without making up garbage.

[JAZA]

I learnt 24, I have a background on southern kung fu and it was very difficult to learn. Also, I have a wushu instructor in the same group of me and he was a lot more stiff than me.
I think it's a very good form for beginning in Tai Ji.

I saw Jet Li film, and it's 24 form in the beginning , but the fighting I don't know what he used.

[jon]

Thanks to all who have offered up corrections.

"I don't think the 24 and the 108 are the same forms. Even though some of the form names are the same they are different applications. They are performed differently and the stepping is different."
* I tried to state in my last post ive never really learnt much of the 24. Ive simply been shown the order of the movements for interests sake. Its not a form we practice in my school, still I was aware that there were some differences in the postures.



Anyway its turning into an interesting thread, lots of great info being bounced around. Good reading:D

[cha kuen]

Intereesting POst!

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