basic training for kicks and punches

[Killerbee]

Ive decided that I should practise more karate so im planning on doing just arm technics and on the next day primarily kicks, maybe in combination with some arm technics.
Each day Im planning on starting very basic, i.e. punch very slowly first, then increase tension, then speed ditto with kicks.
Im gonna warm up of course before each session and then strech of course.

Can you people give me some feedback on this idea? Maybe it sucks and I shouldnt do it? Any exercises I should integrate?

Thanks

[yenhoi]

dont do it.

[Killerbee]

Whats so bad about it?

[Former castleva]

Yeah.Why not?

Besides,watch your body mechanics carefully to not to develop bad habits.
Using mirrors and bags and all might help.

[JusticeZero]

Originally posted by Killerbee
Each day Im planning on starting very basic, i.e. punch very slowly first, then increase tension, then speed ditto with kicks. Why on Earth would you increase tension??? that's like saying "First i'll start out by kicking correctly, then i'll hyperextend my knee further with each kick until i'm blasting full power into my kneecap.."

[HuangKaiVun]

Do your kata.

Then take the speed and power that you built up in solo and apply it in sparring.

Just know that your sparring won't - and shouldn't - look too much like the kata in combat.

That's the way karate is.

[Lowlynobody]

Tension is bad mmmkay? Then again your doing karate and this may be what you want.

Note: remark about karate made without any personal experience in karate what so ever. Not that this sort of thing is out of place on KFO.... :rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

I don't think he means punching fast with tension. I think he means he wants to do some dynamic tension type stuff.

Out of curiousity, why are you choosing to train this way?

[LEGEND]

Learn how to do full contact karate! That's the stuff that Benny the Jet does. Use heavy bags...use double end bags...use shadow boxing techs...get a coach to watch your tech.

[yenhoi]

karate in germany :(

Join a Ving Tsun school.

[IronFist]

Tension is bad... unless you want to pick something up.

IronFist

[Killerbee]

Tension is bad?

Wow, so you kung fu people can punch without tensing your muscles? In karate we tense our triceps when we punch, then we tense our biceps to prevent hyperextension of the elbow joint.

[Killerbee]

Out of curiousity, why are you choosing to train this way?

Cause it works, the tension acts as a strengthening exercise because the muscle and their reverse muscle( bicep, tricep) are working against each other, plus it helps in learning the correct technic cause your doing it really slow. I adopted this way of practise from the kata hangetsu.

[SevenStar]

long division works, but why do it if I have a calculator? There are other methods that will help you develop skill faster in the long run. How long have you been training? Do you already have the mechanics of the punch down?

[Lowlynobody]

Wow, so you kung fu people can punch without tensing your muscles?

Yes.


Now dynamic tension I can understand.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Killerbee
Tension is bad?

Wow, so you kung fu people can punch without tensing your muscles? In karate we tense our triceps when we punch, then we tense our biceps to prevent hyperextension of the elbow joint.

you shouldn't have to consciously think to stop your arm from hyperextending. tension in the arm slows it down. And actually, my guess it that you have a better chance of hyperextending the joint when you have excess tension in it. What style of karate do you train in?

[Lowlynobody]

Also tensing the shoulders will slow your punch down as well. When your muscles are working against each other you are slow. Though I do agree that doing your techniques slow is good for developing correct technique.

[yenhoi]

oh my.

:eek:

a karate troll.

[IronFist]

I hereby refuse to participate in this discussion :D

Some martial artists think it's possible to move (ie. punch) without using muscle tension.

These people must be able to manipulate the gravity around them, because unless it's due to gravity, your movement comes from muscle tension.

All they need to say to get their point across is "don't use excess muscle tension when throwing a punch." The reason is simple, the more tension you employ, the more it slows you down. But no. They have to say "do not use muscle tension when punching. Do not tense your shoulders. Do not tense your triceps or your biceps." Yeah, like that's possible. Do you know what muscle holds your arm out? Shoulders (anterior deltoid head). Do you know what muscle extends your arm? Triceps. Do you know what muscle brings it back in? Rear deltoids and biceps and lats.

So, starting now, I'm done replying to this thread until I figure out how to manipulate the gravity around me. That would be cool.

IronFist

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by IronFist
I hereby refuse to participate in this discussion :D

Some martial artists think it's possible to move (ie. punch) without using muscle tension.

These people must be able to manipulate the gravity around them, because unless it's due to gravity, your movement comes from muscle tension.

All they need to say to get their point across is "don't use excess muscle tension when throwing a punch." The reason is simple, the more tension you employ, the more it slows you down. But no. They have to say "do not use muscle tension when punching. Do not tense your shoulders. Do not tense your triceps or your biceps." Yeah, like that's possible. Do you know what muscle holds your arm out? Shoulders (anterior deltoid head). Do you know what muscle extends your arm? Triceps. Do you know what muscle brings it back in? Rear deltoids and biceps and lats.

So, starting now, I'm done replying to this thread until I figure out how to manipulate the gravity around me. That would be cool.

IronFist

"my guess it that you have a better chance of hyperextending the joint when you have excess tension in it."

Man, if you can't manipulate the gravity around you, you have no business posting here, as you should be training. gravity manipulation is actually rather simple - it's those darn chi blasts that's hard to do. :D

[HuangKaiVun]

For once in my life, I actually agree with Ironfist.

You need tension in kung fu, of which karate is a Japanese variant.

Karate was thought to have been heavily influenced by both ngo cho kuen and Fukien White Crane. Both of those arts are very big on tension training. Just look at the san chim set of both arts, which focus on dynamic tension.

Any kung fu man who is training to FIGHT and doesn't tense his muscles is not doing kung fu. Even those that train Tai Chi are supposed to do tension, particularly in their fast forms and iron body training. You get grabbed or attacked by somebody, you BETTER have good tension or you'll just get your butt kicked.

The only style I've ever noticed that gets worked up over "no tension" is Wing Chun, and yet every other style that uses that toe-in training stance expects to do their sets with a lot of tension. I will always remain unconvinced that being a noodle - even an al dente one - was NOT the goal of Wing Chun.

So I'd suggest sticking with your regimen, Killerbe.

Tension is the kung fu and karate way, as COMBAT is concerned.

[Killerbee]

yenhoi your a dummy, I wasnt trolling in any way, neither was I referring to anything that is exclusively integrated into karate. You just dont have any good arguements and since you cant face the truth you freak out. I feel sorry for you.

[Lowlynobody]

There seems to be a difference in definitions. I agree that the muscles move the body. But in no way do they have to be "tense" to do so. My muscles aren't flexed while I'm typing this or when I lift my cup.
In the same way I don't need to be tense to extend my arms ie the action of throwing a punch.
Through correct body alignment, etc, and using the body to 'shock' for a fraction of a second upon impact one can strike with both speed and power.

I also did not say that you should never be tense. Please do not go on about what you think I am saying.



Then again I am simply a lowlynobody.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Lowlynobody
There seems to be a difference in definitions. I agree that the muscles move the body. But in no way do they have to be "tense" to do so. My muscles aren't flexed while I'm typing this or when I lift my cup.


sure they are. there has to be some type of tension in order for them to move. while you are typing, muscles in your hand is flexed. That is a small task. great tension isn't needed. make a fist. feels like nothing is flexed, right? now make it tighter. feel that? your forearem flexes. now squeeze a little tighter. Notice that you feel your bis and tris. squeeze incredible hard and you will also feel your shoulders and chest contracting. muscles tense on an as needed basis.

Another example is a pond. drop a small rock in it. you get small ripples, right? Now, drop a larger rock in. larger ripples.

[SevenStar]

In the same way I don't need to be tense to extend my arms ie the action of throwing a punch.
Through correct body alignment, etc, and using the body to 'shock' for a fraction of a second upon impact one can strike with both speed and power.

Is that 'shock' not a tensing of the muscles on impact?

[Lowlynobody]

Uhuh. Please forgive my impertinence. You are surely correct.

[NorthernMantis]

There seems to be a misconception here about tensing in kung fu. The key is to be relaxed when you punch but you tense on the moment of impact and then you become relaxed again to not lose energy get tired.

[MaFuYee]

killer bee,

i think every good ma practitioner would staunchly support the training and development of "the basics", that is almost a given.

however...

i am getting the impression that perhaps some people here may have a slightly misconcieved understanding of what exactly the purpose of those 'basic' techniques are used for. (stay with me on this one, and try to remain detached and nonjudgemental.)

e.g. when you practice the typical karate 'reverse punch', as described, first starting slowly, (good) without tension, and then increasing tension (but not speed). this is very good. - but training in this way is not done to develop power in punching. - it is used as an exercise, not unlike doing pushups, to develop strength which is necessary for "pushing/pulling" techniques, used to attack the spine, neck, joints, etc. - this is an instance when "a punch is not just a punch".

practicing in this manner will NOT increase the speed of your punches, and will not effectively increase the power (beyond a certain point).

training punches in this manner will actually slow you down, as you will be tensing muscles on the forward motion of your punches that should be completely relaxed for optimal speed. (e.g. your triceps should be working, but you biceps should not. - any tension in your biceps will only slow down the speed of your punch.) - and since the formula for force is <mass>, times <acceleration squared>; it is shown in the formula that speed is the key component to power. - bruce lee knew this.

the "reverse punch" of karate is a model for numerous joint locking/breaking techniques, holding/throwing techniques, as well as just striking.

of course they usually don't teach you that until you've gone up a few dans...

if you want to train basic striking; you're better off working on a punching bag. - that way you don't end up training yourself to pull your punches, in order to prevent hyperextending your elbow. - also the bag will teach you proper body connection, for max power; something just punching air cannot teach.

as mentioned in many of the other posts, training for punching power, by punching in the air can lead to joint injuries, and is not necessarily the most effective way to do it. - otherwise, don't you think boxers would be doing reverse punches all day?

...

likewise, techniques such as the 'ouside to inside block', 'low block', 'inside to outside block', etc. are not really used to block punches (except very rarely). - they are used as hammerfist strikes, forearm strikes, and as throws, joint locks/breaks, etc. - i mean, how many times in your life, have you ever seen anyone actually use one of those blocks while sparring? (sucessfully) - and if you can't even pull them off when sparring, then forget about using them in real life situations.

it's great that you've decided to work on the basics...

just don't let preconcieved notions limit your understanding, and thereby limit your progress.

... i mean really... how long does it take for a person to learn how to punch someone in the chest??? - i mean, even if you're really slow, it shouldn't take more than 4 hours total, before you've got the basic concept down.

[MaFuYee]

oh...

one more point.

there is a difference between "fast twich" and "slow twitch" muscle.

you need to develop the fast twitch muscle for quick and powerful punches.

the dynamis tension exercises do not develop fast twitch muscle.

[buksing_king]

hey there everyone this thread is pretty interesting

I have to admit i practise kung fu , choy lay fut buk sing and one of our principals is to be relaxed as to not waste and energy and to also relax so you are not telegraphing your punches or kicks... and then at the moment of impact there should be great tension, this can be understood more readily if you think of someone throwing a wild hook, and a ball and chain , if the chain is loose then much speed can be generated and the force applied through the ball will be greater, if all the links in the chain are welded together then it will be harder to generate the same speed and thus force, in this case the arm is the chain and the ball is the fist ...

And a correction that needs to be noticed

force=mass x acceleration
force does not = mass x acceleration squared
because force also equals= mass x gravity ( 9.8 meters per second per second)

This can be proven through dimensions

dimensions of force = the dimensions of mass x the dimensions of acceleration

if anyone wants to see the reasoning(working out) for this i will be more than happy to share

maybe you were thinking of einsteins theory of relitvity which is E=mc squared which is energy = mass x the speed of light squared

im done feeling academic ...... so train hard , but not tense!:D

[scotty1]

I think the trouble here is that Iron is technically correct while others are thinking of "relaxed" as meaning "no excess tension" and "tense" meaning "overly tense".

Dynamic tension is a good training tool I think, for strengthening the muscles involved and using correct form, but obviously in combat you would not want your muscles to be too tense.

If we think of our muscles as "relaxed" then we think of them as having no tension, which is not technically the case.

Or am I just talking bollocks?:)