Butterfly Kicks!!!!!!! Help!

[Mizong_Kid]

just wanted to know what muscles need to be worked on in order to start practicing butterfly kicks.......

so far i think its the need for strong abdomen muscles and strong legs for lift off.....

is this so?

butterfly kicks are like.,....really difficult to do arent they? to those out there whom successfully perform this...how long in practicing before u could actually pull this kick off?????

[dsn]

Some people can pick up Butterfly kicks faster than others; but I'd have to say its both leg muscles and abs working together (coupled with the correct form).

Work on doing handstands for long periods of time (strengthens lots of muscles for gymnastics techniques), and work lots of jumping excercises.

You'll eventually pick up the butterfly.

-
Jeremiah Spradlin - Northern Eagle Claw - Atlanta, Georgia.

[GeneChing]

For some people these are really hard - for others not so much. Butterfly kicks need full body coordination. Hopefully you have a wind-up-run already worked out - I ve seen a few variations on the pattern. You need that to generate momentum, but the key is timing and coordination. Start by only lifting your right leg and keep ing your left on the ground. Once you get the body coordination/timing, you can try lift off. Two helpful hints: get your chest low to the ground just before you launch for more wind-up and throw your arms out as you launch just like you would throw a fishing net.

[norther practitioner]

Good lower back strength helps also.....
Yeah, about Gene's advice, I'd advise getting your head near the ground, but I guess that happens when your chest is down there. Getting the run in is important, there are a few, but to get the mechanics down try to do them stationary.
We do that by standing with our legs a little wider than shoulder and arms straight out to the sides.
Ask your teacher, they'll teach you how they want you to do it, everyones butterfly is a little different.

[Mizong_Kid]

ok i will try that out....i downloaded a clip of sum student of wushu and he got quite some height on his butterfly.....it was amazing!

as for handstands.....how should one start off practicing to try and hold hand stands for such prolonged times??? ive seen those shaolin kid monks do it with extreme ease!

is such exercises necessary?

[dsn]

I do Northern Eagle Claw Kung Fu ( Ying Jow Pai ), and one of the big things Eagle Claw is known for is the heavy use of acrobatics/gymastics techniques in our forms. I think Sifu said that all but three of our forms featured either a forward handspring, back handspring, or splits in the form.

So, in all of the information I've found around the Net on strengthening gymastics techniques, doing correct handstands (ie: arms straight at about shoulder width, legs straight with feet pointed, stomach sucked in to hold the whole body straight) strengthens multiple muscles.

Basically.. do handstands when you have the spare time; the longer you can hold them the better. Works arm muscles, abs, etc...

As for legs, my Sifu has a huge 'leg workout' class on Mondays where we work specifically on leg strength. Squats, kicks, etc.

Yes, and in order to improve kung fu; these excersices are important. Or at least, after doing it for a couple years straight, I can see definite improvements.

-
Jeremiah Spradlin - Northern Eagle Claw - Atlanta, Georgia.

[GeneChing]

...you should look into yoga, capoeira and gymnastics. They do it much better than kungfu, really. In kungfu, you just do it. Those little shaolin kids, they aren't given much instruction about handstands. It's more militaristic, do or be punished. The other aforementioned arts integrate handsatnd a lot more, so they've given it a lot more thought and have much better advice to offer than you'll find in the kungfu realm.

[David Jamieson]

In October 2000 Kungfu/Qigong magazine (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=126) there is an article about the setup and execution of the butterfly kick.

page 110.

It's pretty clear instruction in four easy steps.

However, body balance and power have to come from you. :D

The article contains the front jump kick, the tornado kick (360 jumping inside crescent), the jumping outside crescent kick and the butterfly kick.

peace

[richard sloan]

perhaps one of the most insane xuan si I have ever seen was from a seated zuo pan, right into the kick...

[GeneChing]

Forgot about that one. You earn your moderator status once again.:D

[SifuAbel]

Good butter fly kicks are pure technique, you don't even need to run if you are sound on the mechanics.

Butterflykick (http://home.earthlink.net/~drhchan/BUTTER1.JPG)

[GLW]

Developing a butterfly -

First start in two areas :

A cartwheel - do cartwheels...using both hands. Then move to one hand. Then aerials - no hands...

At the same time, use a chair to practice the form for the butterfly. You get the set up and then use the chair with your hands on it to get the kicking up and as high as you can. you also then work on getting the backward arch in the low back (where the term butterfly comes from).

Now you have it with the chair...but your arms are in the wrong position.

Now you move to doing it with one foot staying on the ground to train getting the head down and then throwing one leg up, keeping the waist down, arching the back, and throwing the arms open....

This is the hard part - at this stage, you stay doing aerials or working towards them until you get the back arch correct and you can do the aerial...

Now you combine the two....the butterfly is really an aerial turned at a diagonal or horizontal with the arching of the low back and the arms flying open.

By the time you get here, you will be dying to let the other leg leave the ground....

When you get it all combined, the height will be there and it will flow.

Of course doing low back strecthing backward as well as tons of jumping practice...and getting over the fear of smashing your face into the floor helps.

Big area to watch out for - the dangers in a butterfly are:

Low back strain...so warm up and stretch

Knee injury - the landing is one where you can land and torque a knee and blow out all kinds of things.

Ankle injury - again, the landing is a killer.

Falling on you face - obvious.

The least is the fall on your butt...that one - unless you land on your tail bone really only hurts your pride.

[SifuAbel]

Right, for the most part.

But.......
The head does not stay down. The head and arms should come up with the first leg. There is no need to artificially arch the back. Its not really a cartwheel type aerial. The chair exercise is just to get the swinging feel of the legs. Once done with, the chair is put away and the then the proper mount is taught. Swinging from one gung bo side to the other, the arms sweep across and down on a down ward arc. the chest should end up near the next knee. At that point, the first foot is ready to lift off. It lifts and the head lifts at the same time along with the arms. The supporting leg then pushes up. The momentum carries the other leg along. The body continues turning until facing the same way it started, in the same gung bo.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Remember that this kick, like every kick, should be USABLE in a fight or sparring match...forget about running to gain momentum then, you have to perform it from where you are.
OK, here's my way.
The methods which works best for me is to begin the kick exactly like a rotating evade in boxing. swing your upper body from the waist exactly like you were a boxer ducking under a swing or a hook (which also means keep your guard to your chin). Then perform a kind of roundhouse at high level (opponent's head level, this method isn't useful for body targets) with the waist momentum of your evade, then spring from your leg and follow a second kick, performing the butterfly.
It's actually much safer than it seems (try it to see for yourself) because even if your first kick misses, when you're in the air the second one covers your exit (it can hit too, if you're lucky). Then at the reception of your kick you just have to do a pivot around the landing leg to take some more distance. I usually manage to put a good 10 feet between me and my opponent doing that (the jump+pivot to face your opponent's direction again + a second one to perform a stance shift). Or after the pivot you can just use the momentum to run away (with a classy exit like this, no one will call you sissy LOL).
I repeat it: it's a bad idea to target anything else lower than the head because you could be stopped cold and trip.
As you guessed it, this method primarily makes it an evade or disengage kick. You don't even have to hit, as the two kicks cover your exit. Of course it's much better if one kick hits though...
Try it, you'll see, I managed to make several savate guys less sure about gong fu kicks being just flashy...

[GLW]

Abel...if you want me to go into 100% detail - then it would take several pages. I assume that anyone asking about a butterfly probably has a teacher and is looking to suppliment.

There are MANY parts of a butterfly that are in common with a cartwheel and an aerial. The most obvious of which is getting over the fear os SPLAT...and then the need for getting the lift off working.

The description I gave was a method to build up to doing them...and there are many many details left out. As it was, it was a fairly long post...and most will probably get lost in it...

the parts you mention about the head and arms...well those pieces are some of the last details that most people don't get for a while....and the groser mechanics of the move...if a person focuses on getting the finer details first...will never happen.

Want to see some very weel executed ones...folks like Javonne Holmes are worth a look.

[SifuAbel]

" the parts you mention about the head and arms...well those pieces are some of the last details that most people don't get for a while....and the groser mechanics of the move...if a person focuses on getting the finer details first...will never happen."

I dunno, this is the way i was taught from the beginning. There were no grosser or finer points to this. It was just the way you did a butterfly and it didn't take me pages to describe it. I've taught students to do this in one day. Its not rocket science.

[GLW]

Having taught, judged and dealt with a lot of folks, the items you mention ARE the most common mistakes.

First off, people rarely get the air they need ...then they do not throw the arms out correctly and the head does not go anywhere near where it should.


Then, the legs do not get kicked up ...and most of these problems stem from not getting a good enough take off and giving in to fear. That fear can be of falling ...or as you get older...the fear of the landing...butterflies are a really good way to wreck a knee if you land badly.

One of the ways that many teachers in China will use to address these two basic issues is to point out the similarities between the different mor gymnastics techniques.

It is more of an approach of teaching style...the end is the same....but if you have a group of students and classmates where more than the most gifted student gets it...then the less said by the teacher - will still work because students help each other....been in both situations....every group is different.

[Kristoffer]

:mad:

[GLW]

Kristoffer's byline is strange...especially if you realize that many a good 'ol boy in their teens ...out drinking in Texas....have gone in for cow-tipping....

[Mizong_Kid]

okay.......i am kind of confused about the method of using the chair in learning how to do butterfly kicks....could you clarify this???

the master i learn frmo knows this kick, but one of his senior students told me he doesnt teach it anymore because he considers it unpractical. or something along those lines.

but i hav always wanted to learn butterfly kick.........jet li inspired me!

but for a skinny kid learning the butterfly could prove more difficult than i first thought

[dsn]

A Butterfly kick, as it was described above, is in many ways a flying, diagonal cartwheel. Using a chair will help you get the correct motion for the butterfly kick down reasonably well.

NOTE: You can use a chair, a box, etc...

Stand in Ma Sek (ie: Horse Stance), with the chair positioned to either side of you (depending upon which direction you intend to go). Now JUST like a cartwheel, practice your butterfly kick by twisting your body in the direction of the chair and place your leading hand on the closest edge of the chair seat; your other hand should come to rest on the other side of the seat as you do a 'side-cartwheel' using the chair.

When your feet are in the air, your hands should be using the chair seat for support. (same hand position as if you were doing pushups using the chair seat).

ALSO, the chair really only helps you get the idea of the butterfly kick; if you can do it without the chair... practice the butterfly without the chair.

-
Jeremiah Spradlin - Northern Eagle Claw Kungfu - Atlanta, Georgia.

[yu shan]

Some "moves" whether aerial attacks or some other precision move, need to have your Teachers skills taught to you. You can`t dream this stuff up! KFO cannot teach certain things, good information is passed on here, but!

[dsn]

Well.. anything can be learned from seeing it done.. being able to do it well or correctly is a whole different matter. :)

-
Jeremiah Spradlin - Northern Eagle Claw Kungfu - Atlanta, Georgia

[Crushing Step]

Crimson-

I am new to trtrying the butterfly kick myself, although I've found a dozen video clips. I am stuck in the habit of a traditional 360 (tornado kick) so I haven't quite pulled it off yet. Truthfully, I thought the butterfly was purely a flashy kick. Is there any way you could provide us with a clip of your useful version?

[Mizong_Kid]

hhhhmmmm

well......i think its a flashy kick......its look so cool........if u can do it that is.

tho a fellow student did tell me that our master thinks the butterfly is unpractical hence he doesnt openly teach it.

[Souljah]

try this, hope it helps:)

help (http://www.geocities.com/ox_pasture/Tbfkick.html)