One thing that bothers me...

[Good, better, Me]

Hey,

People usually disrespect modern karate (open forms, sports karate sparring etc.), and say that it has nothing to do with real combat. Well, let me ask you, what's really the difference with for example hung gar and karate? They both have blocks, kicks, punches, and solid/low stances to make balance better. Karate and kung fu, both have self-defence techniques.

The thing that most people complain about modern karate, is the fact that it's a sport. But I really don't see the problem with that. Even if it's a sport, it still has same kind of basic training as any kung fu style. And usually people practise martial arts because they're challenging and fun! So I don't really see what's wrong with karate, and what makes kung fu or any other martial art more superior then it is?

[rubthebuddha]

they may have a reasonable issue with the application -- striking to win a tourney, or striking to knock someone out so you can get the heck away.

however, this issue is not one to complain about. the sport issue of karate doesn't affect any other art. karateka know their stuff is sportish (most of them; some are still deluded), and keep it that way. hung gar (or whatever art in question, i'm just continuing with your hung gar example) people know the purpose of their art. but there's no reason to whine about differences.

i'd chalk at least 90 percent of it up to insecurity. hung gar masters could give a flying leap about karateka, and a proper sensei could care less what hung gar peeps do with their free time.

it's usually the students, or the new instructors who haven't had a good punitive ass-whooping from their sifu for bad behavior, who are the ones to talk smack. they may be insecure about their art or not, but they are definitely insecure about themselves to feel the need to talk bad about others to make themselves look more important. it's pretty petty and pathetic, but what do you expect to come from insecurity? inspiration?

[HuangKaiVun]

Good, Better, Me, I agree.

Only those who don't practice EITHER kung fu or karate - and I'm even including those who are enrolled in classes - would knock either art.

[yenhoi]

Another one

:eek:

[NorthernMantis]

what's really the difference with for example hung gar and karate?

Hung ga is Chinese

Karate is Japanese

[Stacey]

its the required kick flips, the wussey guys screaming and acting all bad assed swinging around their glittering kamas and glow in the dark nunchaku while doing a a splits kick on their toes that is toatlly ineffective. Then they get ESPN time so all our friends say, "I saw some of that karate stuff you do on TV" and associated us with them.

Thats like going to Emmit Smith and saying.. "You play on a football field, well I saw a marching band on tv."......


These are the guys that sued to get on the girls drill team, the boys in the school yard or the fairer persuation. After getting beat up for it, they joined karate to boost their self confidence and now scream at people in front of the lights, dancing to music acting tough with their screw together purple colored bo staffs.


You can't compare it to Hung Gar, thats real. Hung Gar and shotokan can be compared.

Sport Karate can be compared with chinese wu su, flashdance and Satruday Night Fever.

[Former castleva]

its the required kick flips, the wussey guys screaming and acting all bad assed swinging around their glittering kamas and glow in the dark nunchaku while doing a a splits kick on their toes that is toatlly ineffective. Then they get ESPN time so all our friends say, "I saw some of that karate stuff you do on TV" and associated us with them. ""

"These are the guys that sued to get on the girls drill team, the boys in the school yard or the fairer persuation. After getting beat up for it, they joined karate to boost their self confidence and now scream at people in front of the lights, dancing to music acting tough with their screw together purple colored bo staffs."

That was amusing but I cannot associate it with sport karate or generally even sport MA.

I can,fortunately,take a look at both sides of this one coin.
When it comes down to combat issues,I think it is something we should not be very concerned of...no,don´t quit reading just yet.
Trough this short analysis of describing what it is,I think this name "competition/sport karate" or whatever it will be is going to give a good view of what you should anticipate.
Understanding that ppl should,logically,train it for fun of sport I do not think we should stick to this by saying it is not "effective".
Let sport be sport if it is it´s primary purpose,why not? You will eventually know where to go for if you are not looking for martial sports...

:)

[Ray Pina]

One can't argue with good karate. I have an isshin-ryu background and have seen some good men do some solid things growing up.

There are good schools and bad schools in all arts.

With that said there were a few things lacking in Karate from my experince. The biggest: no concept of sticking to an apponant. Without that, you are just gambling on your speed, timing, power and toughness.

Karate's blocking scheme (and a lot of kung fu, too) relise too heavily on a windshieldwiper blocking scheme, ie, down to up, out to in or up to down. This too counts too much on timing. But then again, maybe at a higher level these things are nullified, I only reached ni-dan and I was younger.

Ray

Happy Thanksgiving:)

[ShaolinTiger00]

People usually disrespect modern karate
what's really the difference with for example hung gar and karate?


People usually disrespect kungfu equally if not more.

[YungChun]

Well in my experience the Chinese Sifu normally knew what their forms were in terms of application of theory, technique, etc. Again in my experience the American versions of the Karate lines rarely knew what the kata was for - as was said - did not stick - and recommended use of western boxing type or sport karate moves/strategies during sparring despite training kata all day.

Honestly it may not be popular, but I think that much of the Karate styles that are still out there are missing a good part of their systems. It is said that many of the founders, especially of the Okinowan systems, would pass the true arts on only to family. What I see is many schools operating with a set of kata that they do not understand and nothing else to guide them. If at all possible I think these arts should be fully researched in an attempt to put them back together again in their original state – minus the Jabs, Hooks and bobbing and weaving.

Is it really that surprising that masters of these systems may not have passed the essence of their arts onto the conquering Americans in post 1945? This is evidenced by the advanced Dan ranks today constantly debating the value of their kata in fighting and what the meaning of the kata is and how to train whatever it is. I know some of these Masters of today who look to the Chinese arts for better understanding of their own systems. Personally I found I understood the Karate I studied better after doing Kung-Fu. Imagine what it would be like training your Chinese system with only a handful of forms and nothing else to guide you – in Wing Chun I can tell you it would never translate into the system we have today by a long shot.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
One can't argue with good karate. I have an isshin-ryu background and have seen some good men do some solid things growing up.

There are good schools and bad schools in all arts.

With that said there were a few things lacking in Karate from my experince. The biggest: no concept of sticking to an apponant. Without that, you are just gambling on your speed, timing, power and toughness.

Karate's blocking scheme (and a lot of kung fu, too) relise too heavily on a windshieldwiper blocking scheme, ie, down to up, out to in or up to down. This too counts too much on timing. But then again, maybe at a higher level these things are nullified, I only reached ni-dan and I was younger.

Ray

Happy Thanksgiving:)

well said. i haven't got the technical background in japanese karate or chinese gung fu. but this is a great technical point about not sticking as a general principle.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

i think we can all point to members of the tournament community that act like tools and reflect badly on their respective arts.

when i was at charlie lee's big tournament in... reston(?), my friend was warming up for his point fighting match (not my personal bag, but he digs it, so... ). he's stretching out, when this little nutcase in an animal-print vest leaps into the ring next to us, assumes a deep horse stance, emits a blood curdling scream, and crushes a paper cup.

satisfied with this display of brute force and focus, he leaps back out of the ring to compete in his chinese forms competition.

does he reflect poorly on real gung fu? nah. nor does every point fighter reflect poorly on real karate. it's a facet. some people dig it. others don't.

my friend matt knows that point fighting isn't real fighting. and he knows enough to have gotten himself trained in some boxing and judo in addition to many years of taekwondo. but he digs the competitions. that's all. and that's enough.


stuart b.

[Chang Style Novice]

I hope the entire room cracked up at the paper cup guy. I know I did.

[apoweyn]

:)

i hope so too. frankly, i was a bit too stunned to notice anyone else's reaction.

[red5angel]

GBM, I used to go to an excellent Shorin Ryu school that was very serious about all aspects of martial arts. They practiced good defensive stuff, worked hard at training their competitors to work well in the ring, and even worked hard at forms training for those people who liked to do that in tournemants.

One thing they explained early on is that while you are doing a lot of training for many years that seems to be very restrictive, the goal was to teach your body to react properly to any attack and to adapt to those attacks as they came. While the instructors would go over techniques they always mentioned that it came down to what seem to work at the time and that whil ethe training looks good, fighting for your life never looks pretty.

[Ray Pina]

"Personally I found I understood the Karate I studied better after doing Kung-Fu. ":)

That is so very true. I see so much more now. But I could also say I understand Hung Gar and Wing Chun better now, too. As we grow, we see more.

One thing I will give Japanese martial arts is there demand for respect. I see a lack of it in Chinese martial arts: students talking while the teacher demonstrates, standing around all half-a$$ed. I know there is a big push as of late that martial art gyms should be viewed no differently then taking any class, where the teacher is just a person being paid for their services so one can do or say or behave as they will.

I don't like that. I would never train with someone that I did not fully respect. And I could never behave that way in front of someone I admire.

Ray
Happy Holidays