sparring w/ a muy thai guy

[Jzf_K]

I sparred tonight with a muy thai guy and it was quite fun, opened my eyes to some different kinds of attacks that I didn't look to guard against before (my background=shaolin). Specifically his shin kick to the back of my front leg and thequick punch through the face. (you see these in alot of ufc's) Any ideas for defending against these kinds of attacks?
Overall it was about even, he didn't like my traping or strikes from multiple angles:) My quads are gonna hurt tomorrow from those thai leg kicks tho

[omarthefish]

the trick with those leg kicks is to lift the leg he's kicking st and change the angle it gets hit at. As for face punches, it's jast typical of us gong-fu guys to be overly lax about keeping our hands up. Either we're trying to hard to look cool, stay relaxed or our partners are just too polite to hit us in the face. BAD HABIT. must change.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by Jzf_K
Any ideas for defending against these kinds of attacks?

For whatever it's worth:


Specifically his shin kick to the back of my front leg


In your style do you have a front kick done with the heel - toes out 45 degrees? If so try this with your lead leg targeting his Centerline - hope he has a cup on. Aim, if possible, at his upper support leg, which should be in the Centerline along with the jewels. As you intercept and your kick shoots out, his target, (your lead leg) has now moved - the 45 degree angle of the knee and leg will close the outside low gate and you attack his Centerline (support leg) at the same time. If you make good contact he will go flying backward and land on his butt.



the quick punch through the face.


In both cases of his kick and his straight lead (i assume) you may wish to step in (intercept) either with a kick (if he kicks) or an attacking bridge arm of your own. This may be best done by flanking him as you step. A more forward facing starting position (from outside) may at first feel awkward (don't know your style) but may offer you more flexibility being able to flank either side more quickly. A flank may allow you to:

1. Avoid his attack
2. Stay in range
3. Use your two hands against his one
4. Issue an immediate counter
5. Allow for an arm bridge
6. Allow for a leg bridge
7. Stay on the offensive
8. Eat up his space


HTH

[SevenStar]

Practice blocking with your shins. raise your leg, and keep your foot pointed outward, not down. Once you have that down, you can try to use it with a counter. After blocking, drop the leg real fast and hit his supporting leg with a roundhouse of your own.

Another you can try is to throw a punch at him with the hand opposite the blocking leg. So, if you are blocking with the left leg, as you lift your left leg, pivot on your right foot and throw a strike with your right hand. You can use the energy from his kick to assist your punch. Instead of a punch, it can be a push, and you can capitalize on the opening if you off balance him. It's similar to the taiji concept of yielding, I think.

As for the punch, work your parries and slipping.

What lead did you have? what lead did he have?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by omarthefish
the trick with those leg kicks is to lift the leg he's kicking st and change the angle it gets hit at. As for face punches, it's jast typical of us gong-fu guys to be overly lax about keeping our hands up. Either we're trying to hard to look cool, stay relaxed or our partners are just too polite to hit us in the face. BAD HABIT. must change.

Speak for yourself, dude!

[omarthefish]

Serpent,

I am speaking for myself. Sensitive?

If your hands are up then a few quick face punches shouldn't cause any problems.

Sevenstar,

Better description than I could think of. BTW there's a clip of a guy breaking his attackers leg with this technique on the download section at McDojo.com. Really horrifying.

YunChun,
You brought up my absolute favorite kick but the timing is tricky \. You gotta be really quick with that one.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by omarthefish
Serpent,

I am speaking for myself. Sensitive?

No. What you actually said was:



As for face punches, it's jast typical of us gong-fu guys to be overly lax about keeping our hands up. Either we're trying to hard to look cool, stay relaxed or our partners are just too polite to hit us in the face. BAD HABIT. must change.


There's a lot of plurals in there, generalising about "gong-fu guys", not just yourself.

So, speak for yourself, dude! :p

:D

[YungChun]

Originally posted by omarthefish
YungChun,
You brought up my absolute favorite kick but the timing is tricky \. You gotta be really quick with that one.

I agree that you have to be quick as in intercepting, but IMHO less than other methods since the straight line nature of this counter going against the circular attack is intended to compensate for the reaction delay. As soon as this counter begins his target is gone and the line is closed, now add to this to the fact that the attacker cannot move his support leg (your target) and it adds up to my favorite too :D

[Liokault]

Oddly enough we had a couple of guys who had trained in Thai boxing come to class last night.


Its the first time I have sparred with some one who did Thai boxing in a friendly way (I have been against 2 Thi boxers in the ring and got a real stiff neck of one in the first week i ever started training in Tai Chi). and it was very interesting.

their stricking and leg kicks were good but nothing special in san shou but what i was very imperesed with was their clinch work.

the smaller of the 2 guys was very hard to work against in a clinch and Im the kind of guy who normaly likes to work from a clinch. They were very good at covering up with the elbows whilst pulling me close enough to stop me kneeing effectively. they also sort of lifted from my neck to leep me off balance all the time.


All together very impressive clinch work and had the short guy (who was much better than his muscular friend) been a couple of inches taller I would have had real problems.




Anyway its good to hear that your practicing agfainst guys from other Martial backgrounds.

[fa_jing]

Well even if your hands are up, doesn't mean a punch can't get through. Hands up + react in time by parrying or evading.

[neito]

shin-blocks are a necessity

[SevenStar]

no doubt. you don't want to get in the habit of dropping your arms to block kicks. If you are already in the habit, get out.

[Water Dragon]

shin-blocks are a pain in the shin!

[fiercest tiger]

well i wouldnt stand there i would just attack and keep attacking, be the aggressor etc

try counter kicking and attack his kicking leg as well!

my 2 cents worth

FT

[jun_erh]

I was totally shocked the first time I received one of those kicks. Some one in my class said that out teacher knocked a guy out with one. A serious question: Do you think you could use chi to absorb the blow??? I mean you as in someone not you specifically necassarily

[YungChun]

Originally posted by jun_erh
I was totally shocked the first time I received one of those kicks. Some one in my class said that out teacher knocked a guy out with one. A serious question: Do you think you could use chi to absorb the blow??? I mean you as in someone not you specifically necassarily

Just walk in to the darn thing. If you do it right the guy will fall over - sheesh. IMO round kicks are best left to tournement fighting.

[OneStrike]

LMAO @ Walking into a Muay Thai roundhouse. That'll work real well if you can get them to kick in slow motion.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by OneStrike
LMAO @ Walking into a Muay Thai roundhouse. That'll work real well if you can get them to kick in slow motion.


My point is to step in! When someone does a round kick the target distance is critical - more so IMO than even other kicks, which are sensitive anyway. In order for the RK to work the defender must not change distance more than about 7-10 inches closer or more distant.

If the 'defender' steps in let's say 10 inches (not much right?) Where will the kick land? It is jammed - the velocity of the attacking weapon is cut off AND in jamming the RK the balance of the kicker is also disrupted. The more you step in the more you will disrupt his balance - step in enough and he will fall on his a$$.

This is what intercepting is all about: The 'defender' must close in order to cut off the attack - breakdown structure and issue attacks. Counter attacks cannot be done very effectively by staying in one spot and 'blocking' or by retreating - both passive states.

[friday]

don't mt guys also have kicks that they hammer in with when they are in close? :) just something my friend told me today

[YungChun]

Originally posted by friday
don't mt guys also have kicks that they hammer in with when they are in close? :) just something my friend told me today

MT as most arts has weapons for the inside - they will normally try to clinch. Again, the important thing is to break them down and the way to best do this IMO is to intercept. That means going in - stealing balance and attacking as efficiently and quickly as possible.

[yenhoi]

quote friday:
don't mt guys also have kicks that they hammer in with when they are in close?

'Most' thai weapons can be used at 'close range.' There is a thread on the main forum somewhere, no clue about title, no blue about author, but on it SevenStar listed the entire arsenal of a typical thai fighter. Might be worth a search on SevenStar if your truely interested, or just goto a MT website :D

I disagree that the thai round kick is more sensitive to range then other kicks, but its very true that one of the best defenses is to jam the kick. In fact jamming is one of the best defenses to any technique thrown at you.

Something to remember when you do this, a lead round kick can switch to a rear knee (any type of knee) with about as much effort as it will take a 'defender' to change distance. A rear thai kick can too, it can also change to a teep (thai front kick). Thai rounds kicks are not always at the same angle - same mechanics, almost the same technique, angled up (standard), horizontal, and angled down (hazard!, my favorite). An expierenced thai will be able to look like hes throwing a round kick from the outside, and really be throwing a cut kick (round kick from inside). Also, very important, thai guys are not limited to thai boxing techniques, that left lead round kick could actually be a right lead (switch!) standard round kick, front kick, or oblique. I say this because if you make it your policy to move in on every thai round kick, your going to be not so pleasently greeted with some other kick, or some knees, not to mention what the evil thai will be doing with his elbows and head.

Or, do what the thais do - shin block (like 7* said), kick the supporting leg, or teep (stop kick) the offending round kick. You can also (depending on range of course) throw some sort of knee at him - at his kicking leg's thigh, or a side knee to upper body or supporting leg. Another note, thai round kick is not just a 'long' or 'medium' range weapon, it can be used at 'close' range, to great effect. Just thoughts - changing distance vs whatever attack is a great tactic, but keep your options open, cause his are.

[omarthefish]

If anything Thai round kicks are LESS sensitive to range changes. One of the nice things about such a blunt instrument. If you just step in closer your likely to get the knee instead of the shin.

Excellent point about the 'switch' kicks.

You can still step in and change the angle though. Shin blocks are a must but angling is even better. He kicks with a right rear, you simultaneously launch you left while angling off to your own right. You kick under his kick to the inside of his standing leg.

If you do ant to move in and jam his kick it needs to be combined with some kind of shoulder smash or body to body bump to knock him off balance when you get in. Hung-gar has a good downward fore arm block used in the 2 mans to block a front kick. If you smash the forearm down into the inguinal crease of his leg as you come in dropping your horse (with a right leg rear kick, your shoulder would be smacking into his chest held higher as insurance at this point) you can sometimes knock him right down on his but.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by omarthefish
If anything Thai round kicks are LESS sensitive to range changes.


Don't agree - IMO linear is less distance sensitive than circular

but...


Originally posted by omarthefish
You kick under his kick to the inside of his standing leg.


Thanks that's what I originally posted at the begining of this thread - we're going in.

When stepping in one does not step in and just stand there. Rather one's structure fills space, attacks and jams this can be done a number of ways. In my experience the attacker changing tactics in mid technique in response to visual stimuli happens more often in discussion than real life. Generating power from the knees is not the same dynamic as generating power in a round kick. The inside of the kick (like hitting a baseball too low on the bat) is weak and the stability of the kicker is even weaker IMO. I personally think taking it on the shins is unnecessary and constitutes playing along with the MT game - but to each his own.

Let the person who started this thread try out some of these different things and see what works for him - perhaps he can update us eventually.

[MA fanatic]

Those leg kicks are damaging. Keep in mind, he was also probably taking it easy, because most MuayThai guys condition their shins throw full power kicks and condition their shins in order to raise their leg and stop full power kicks. The face punches, just keep your hands up. I suggest ask the guy to show you some Muay Thai basics in exchange for some Kung Fu techniques. He may be interested in the various kicks and punches Kung Fu has to offer. All kicks are legal in Muay Thai. I remember once I was teaching a Muay Thai guy Korean kicks and he incorporated them beautifully. Just seek out some instruction or get a Muay Thai instructional video. There are a number of them on the market which are good.
MA fanatic

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by YungChun



My point is to step in! When someone does a round kick the target distance is critical - more so IMO than even other kicks, which are sensitive anyway. In order for the RK to work the defender must not change distance more than about 7-10 inches closer or more distant.

If the 'defender' steps in let's say 10 inches (not much right?) Where will the kick land? It is jammed - the velocity of the attacking weapon is cut off AND in jamming the RK the balance of the kicker is also disrupted. The more you step in the more you will disrupt his balance - step in enough and he will fall on his a$$.

This is what intercepting is all about: The 'defender' must close in order to cut off the attack - breakdown structure and issue attacks. Counter attacks cannot be done very effectively by staying in one spot and 'blocking' or by retreating - both passive states.

That's true for a high kick - possibly a mid, but doing that with a low kick, you're gonna end up eating elbows and catching knees. Another thing to keep in mind is speed. You can say, "just walk into it" but remember, you only hae a limited window of time to do so. And you have to consider distance. If you are in range for the guy to hit you with his instep and you step in, then you will get hit with his shin, which is what he would prefer anyway. If you make it past the shin, you'll be fairly safe, but the roundhouse can be extremely fast at low and midlevel heights.

Also, remember that MT does not chamber its roundhouse, nor does it make you lean back while kicking at low or mid height - you have a forward momentum. As you are stepping in, he's not rechambering his leg, he's bringing his weight down on it, and following with an elbow or punch since you are now in range.

That said, it's not impossible to step in on, but harder than you make it seem.

[jun_erh]

The roundhouse to the side/ back of the leg totally ****ed me up and it was even that hard a kick and I'm like 200 pounds. He just tagged me and "krunk"

[yenhoi]

They call that "technique."

:D

Sometimes timing too. :eek:

[omarthefish]

Yung Chun,


Thanks that's what I originally posted at the begining of this thread - we're going in.

Yeah, I started out in Hung Gar so I llike going in too, but what I was trying to describe was actually using a round kick to the inner thigh, not a stomp kick to the hip joint. I tend to use the stomp against the kicking leg.

[Sharky]

YungChun, you have the gayest signature ever, i'm afraid.

[SifuAbel]

"If anything Thai round kicks are LESS sensitive to range changes. One of the nice things about such a blunt instrument. If you just step in closer your likely to get the knee instead of the shin."

Not a good idea.......

The knee is most likely locked on a round kick and even if it were not it would be soon enough and would snap like a celery stick.

Ever get kicked in the knee? It would be pretty much the same thing.

The only thing MT has, in my opinion, is that it trains very hard. Other than that their is nothing special or really different about the techniques.

[SevenStar]

The difference is that they train to go through the target and not snap back. It's a brute power style. Still quite complicated though, when you get into fine details.

"The knee is most likely locked on a round kick and even if it were not it would be soon enough and would snap like a celery stick.
"

Not true. The knee remains bent suring the kick, particularly at close range. From there, you pivot on the supporting foot and turn your hip over, "cutting" into the opponent's leg.

[SifuAbel]

Ok, kick a plam tree with your knee and see if it, your knee that is, survives.

Either way If the person moves in enough to have the knee hit, the rest of the leg is going to continue due to the weight of the rest of the calf and foot. So whether it stops short or continues it loses its power. This is a common defensive tactic move in many martial systems. Check your UFC bible I sure you'll see many examples of this. :D

[SevenStar]

I agree with that. I was diagreeing with your statement that the knee would already be locked out. There is a knee strike that strikes from the side, but the mechanic is very different. It's not likg throwing a roundhouse with the knee.

My UFC bible actually advocates chi blasts!!:D

[SifuAbel]

"or soon will be" was the next phrase. The effective impact position will have the knee close to a lock and certainly will on a knee hit interception.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by Sharky
YungChun, you have the gayest signature ever, i'm afraid.

LOL, sorry you don't like it. It's from a tv ad that ran here in the states - you may not have seen it and therefore don't 'get it.' It got a few laughs when I first used it. Was thinking of changing it to a Daoist saying but haven't gotten around to it. In any case content is hopefully more important than the sig.

[omarthefish]

Ok, kick a plam tree with your knee and see if it, your knee that is, survives.

Spoken like a man with no experience with thai round kicks. If you can use your shins to kick palm trees what makes you think the knee is goiing to be less sensitive? Locked knees are vulnerable. Bent knees are about as invulnerable as anything you can hit with.

Or soon will be? Still no.

This ties into why I think they are less vulnerable to jamming than many other kicks. In addition to the 'cutting' seven start mentioned, one of the keys is that the leg does not snap out at the end. Instead, you drive through your opponent with the knee.

Yong Chun,

I remember the ad.

It's funny.

I can't figure out why.

[SifuAbel]

I wonder which of us is truely inexperienced. The knee may not be completely locked but it is no where near bent enough to be Invunerable. Go ahead, kick the palm with your knee. :rolleyes:

And the point is with this is that you were not intending to hit with a bent knee, you were intending to hit with the lower leg. The hit is jammed and the force is concentrated on the knee. The weight and power of the kick itself will lock out the leg. I've dumped MANY people on thier buts with this maneuver.

Next you'll say MT is "takedown proof". :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


"Instead, you drive through your opponent with the knee."

Nope, you drive through the opponenet with the lower leg, the knee is not an impact point. What you are trying to say is that the leg is whipped around instead of chambered and snapped. This we already know. And we talking, primarily, about body shots, not shots to the leg.

[YungChun]

Okay well thing is that these kinds of discussions can go on, and on and on... He'd do this - that won't work - if you tried that you'd get a face full of...blah blah blah...

When addressing this type of question on a forum we can only attempt to relate what our style and we do and how we train and what concepts, moves we do that seem to work for us and why. It goes without saying, or it should, that much of what one writes here will be incomplete due to time, energy and knowledge limitations.

Given that, the receiver of the information will undoubtedly fill in the missing parts with what's in their head and interpret it perhaps differently that it was intended. So in the end we can only try to explain these things and hope for the best, perhaps with the understanding that there may be no agreement between camps of differing theory, but that someone may benefit from sharing our knowledge, however limited it may be.

Having said that.


Originally posted by SevenStar

If you are in range for the guy to hit you with his instep and you step in, then you will get hit with his shin, which is what he would prefer anyway.

In my experience MT guys are trying to use the shin as the weapon from the get-go, not the instep so when you shoot into his attack the distance to get past the shin with the small lead leg target isn't all that vast.


Originally posted by SevenStar

As you are stepping in, he's not rechambering his leg, he's bringing his weight down on it, and following with an elbow or punch since you are now in range.


Yes I know.

This thing we do called stepping in is not really just stepping in. I would assume that this would apply to other CMA as well - SifuAbel, perhaps your style(s) do this as well?

The stepping in is actually an attack - on intercept it is a counter attack. Forgetting about hands/elbows for a second - the stance in our case Chum-Kiu is used to attack the structure of the attacker in this case his base. This is a part of stance breaking and the Chum-Kiu (some call Arrow Stance) is a stance movement that repeatedly thrusts the lead knee/leg part of the stance into the base of the opponent - there is great force here. This is a quick and efficient movement often done with a small flank. When done correctly this 'arrow' fills empty space in the center of gravity, can disrupt what's in the way or trap what's in the way, if anything. In this way we offer attack simultaneously with legs and hands even when not kicking.

In a case where the kicker has kicked (low or not) he is, during the kick on one leg. Assuming we do not kick the support leg or crotch, and instead use the 'arrow' part of the stance to step (shoot) in what happens is that a displacement occurs. This means that part of our base has taken or filled in the space that was occupied by the opponent's foot/leg. Typically in this situation the kicking leg had no place to land - when this happens his balance is gone and it feels like the next step down the stairs was suddenly removed. If this should happen then follow-up with control of the opponent is aided greatly. If a clash happens between legs then sticking legs training can be applied.

From a strategy standpoint in WCK and I believe other southern styles the base considered vital to survival. For this reason the importance of attacking this via a 'shoot' and using our ‘stance’ as a weapon to attack the opponent’s base is fundemental. Most Southern styles that I know of would not lift one foot off the ground to kick unless he had a really good reason - since in so doing he is giving up, if even for a moment, his base and is also risking its loss - which can be fatal - we know what normally happens when you try to kick a grappler right? When the opponent does this: Start an attack with a kick we are compelled to fill this void (what we consider an error) to gain control – and in any case, we must join with the attack – in this case there is a void that can and must be filled from our standpoint and that’s what we suggest as being the most logical of responses to such an invitation.

It should be noted that as this close occurs we would already be thinking bridge - so hands are going to 'attack' the line at the same time the bottom does.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SifuAbel

And the point is with this is that you were not intending to hit with a bent knee, you were intending to hit with the lower leg. The hit is jammed and the force is concentrated on the knee. The weight and power of the kick itself will lock out the leg. I've dumped MANY people on thier buts with this maneuver.


I was gonna say that. Ah well. What he said.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by YungChun

In my experience MT guys are trying to use the shin as the weapon from the get-go, not the instep so when you shoot into his attack the distance to get past the shin with the small lead leg target isn't all that vast.

Yeah, it is. But that will not stop one from kicking if you are in instep range. from there you are able to move in closer for the shin kick that you would really prefer to use.

That was an excellent explanation of utilizing your base. There are similar techniques in shuai chiao and also in judo and bjj as eating up space is essential in those arts. As I had stated earlier, I just wanted to point out that it's not exactly easy to step in on those kicks.

[Stacey]

yungchun, you signature is very gay.


Strong enough for a man? Hmmmm. This has prison movie writen all over it.


MT isn't takedown poof. It isn't anything special its kung fu.

I have yet to see anything muay thai that I didn't learn in 8 step. We have 8 kinds of knees, 8 counter kicks. combinations of punches and elbows, kneck controls.

[SevenStar]

It not so much an issue of what techniques it has, but how it's trained and what the focus of your art is. muay thai has a hook kick and a back kick, but how often do you see it? Judo has strikes, but how often do you see them? TKD has throws, but how often do you see them? Regardless of how you train your roundhouse, I doubt you could employ if the way an MT guy can for the simple fact that they spend so much time training it.

As gay as his sig may sound, it describes wing chun to a T, which as we all know, is very gay. I don't mind his sig, but if he wears Secret deoderant (the commercial that used his sig as their tagline) then yes, he's very gay also. :D

[Stacey]

7* gotcha loud and clear.

AbelSifu,

I'd much rather be close on the inside of a roundhouse than take the full force.

If you turn to the inside and throw you can get them to fly and spin through the air.

They turn their waist to kick, you can turn your waist just as quickly to throw them. If you block under the knee, they can hyperextend their leg.

In mantis we call this "threading blocks" after they dislocate, you help them combining their kicking force with your waist power to break their leg and throw them.

[neptunesfall]

Originally posted by YungChun

When addressing this type of question on a forum we can only attempt to relate what our style and we do and how we train and what concepts, moves we do that seem to work for us and why.

keeping with this, and my style, any of the following would apply...

step in for any of these throws:
inner hooking, shaving, pulling

evade the kick, let it go by, then go for embracing, knee seizing, leading arm kicking...
(i've seen this in many muy thai and american kickboxing matches, the kicker will miss and the momentum will turn his back to the opponent...bad habit from ring fighting i guess)

evade the kick and strike

accept the blow, grab the leg, trap an arm and go for almost any leg hooking/sweeping throw. not very advisable, but it's better than just accepting the kick.


Originally posted by SevenStar
As gay as his sig may sound, it describes wing chun to a T, which as we all know, is very gay.
LMFAO!

[SevenStar]

http://www.trainingblades.com/edgesvideo/pages/nelson/tech01.htm

http://www.thailandroad.com/jittigym/jlegtrap.html

[neptunesfall]

the first link is a variation of shaving...
the second link, the pics and the description don't seem to match up for me, so i can't tell.

[SevenStar]

yeah, the sequence seems screwy. the attacker kicks, the defender catches. the defender then kicks the supporting leg of the attacker while simultaneously grabbing his head in the direction away from the direction he is kicking. It's similar to the principle of shearing.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by neptunesfall



evade the kick, let it go by, then go for embracing, knee seizing, leading arm kicking...
(i've seen this in many muy thai and american kickboxing matches, the kicker will miss and the momentum will turn his back to the opponent...bad habit from ring fighting i guess)

evade the kick and strike



A fully committed thai kick will cause you to continue to spin around. you can put your kicking foot down, but you will have your back exposed to your opponent. you can attack from here (back kick, etc) but you have no defense from kicks - your kidneys are exposed, which is a no no - as well as the rest of your body. if someone steps in to grapple, you will then be better able to do several throws.

For that reason, they tell you continue the spin as opposed to stopping it. You want to be able to get back to a postition where you are facing your opponent as quickly as you can.

[Dedication]

Muay thai guys really emphasize on leg kicks and round kicks. If they go for the leg kick , try to move away from it, throw some of your own as well. If they like to roundkick the STEP IN to catch or at least jam. If you step in they might throw a cross, but realize since they are already kicking then that cross will have little power.

When they kick, step in disrupt their balance. Muay Thai is basically standing still and trading strikes.........so.......be circular about your movements and you can catch them off guard. Thrust kicks are great because if you look at the muay thai guard, their hands leave the midsection exposed.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Dedication
Muay thai guys really emphasize on leg kicks and round kicks. If they go for the leg kick , try to move away from it, throw some of your own as well. If they like to roundkick the STEP IN to catch or at least jam. If you step in they might throw a cross, but realize since they are already kicking then that cross will have little power.

When the punch comes, the foot is on it's way down, as I said earlier. He's not punching while leaning back, but while coming forward. There will be some sting behind the punch. If he gets caught unexpectedly from the jam or catching of the kick, he may still be able to reach out and clinch.

I'd reccomend stepping in over stepping out of the way as by stepping away, you merely create more space between you and him, and now you have to get back inside, which means you have to deal with those kicks more.

When they kick, step in disrupt their balance. Muay Thai is basically standing still and trading strikes.........so.......be circular about your movements and you can catch them off guard. Thrust kicks are great because if you look at the muay thai guard, their hands leave the midsection exposed.

Remember now that alot of muay thai has boxing influence - they do more than just stand and trade blows.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by SevenStar
it describes wing chun to a T, which as we all know, is very gay.

Now that's not nice. I think that's what this guy said to Bruce.

http://www.ermac.org/Mediaz/BruceLeeFlash.swf

[OneStrike]

"My point is to step in! When someone does a round kick the target distance is critical - more so IMO than even other kicks, which are sensitive anyway. In order for the RK to work the defender must not change distance more than about 7-10 inches closer or more distant."

Yeah, that's one way to do it, I guess. Personally I think it's a fairly low percentage move, and you're more likely to avoid the kick by moving back. Although it leaves you with less options for the counter, it also means less chance of misjudging the distance and getting KTFO. You can also try to hammer the back of their leg if they come all the way past.

Stop kicks are great, if you can get the timing right. They're commonly used in Muay Thai, too...My instructor has a way of nailing you with a front kick to the thigh when you're kicking with the rear leg that makes you think twice about throwing leg kicks cold.

I think it takes a *lot* of practice to get the stop kick working as a high percentage move against a full power round kick, though. If you're just a little to late you'll end up with your leg being forced back into you and you'll land on your backside, which is unpleasant in sparring and seriously bad news on the street. You have to time it just right. It takes less time to get used to shin blocking, but then you're going to have to condition your shins which takes time...So it all evens out, I guess.

It's also important to remember that a lot of the time kickboxers/muay thai guys are extremely comfortable with manipulating movement and setting up their techniques - so rather than just standing there and kicking at you when you approach, they'll clinch and knee, then push you away/let you move back and whack you on the leg/body as you move through the right range, or hit you with boxing combinations and again catch you as you circle away out of hand range.

It really, really sucks to all of a sudden find yourself circling into a MT round kick.

[Sharky]

http://www.ermac.org/Mediaz/BruceLeeFlash.swf

whoever made that is a ****ing genius.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by OneStrike

Yeah, that's one way to do it, I guess. Personally I think it's a fairly low percentage move, and you're more likely to avoid the kick by moving back. Although it leaves you with less options for the counter, it also means less chance of misjudging the distance and getting KTFO. You can also try to hammer the back of their leg if they come all the way past.

Stop kicks are great, if you can get the timing right. They're commonly used in Muay Thai, too...My instructor has a way of nailing you with a front kick to the thigh when you're kicking with the rear leg that makes you think twice about throwing leg kicks cold.

it's not low %. if you step in the power of the kick is reduced. That is the nature of an arcing kick. even if you don't break their balance, you will receive less damage from the kick - but you will be there to recieve their punches, knees and elbows. Those can be dealt with though. moving back does get you out of the way, but puts you at no advantage, unless you intend on running away.

I think it takes a *lot* of practice to get the stop kick working as a high percentage move against a full power round kick, though. If you're just a little to late you'll end up with your leg being forced back into you and you'll land on your backside, which is unpleasant in sparring and seriously bad news on the street. You have to time it just right. It takes less time to get used to shin blocking, but then you're going to have to condition your shins which takes time...So it all evens out, I guess.

That's the very reason I'd rather step in or shin block.

[OneStrike]

"it's not low %. if you step in the power of the kick is reduced. That is the nature of an arcing kick. even if you don't break their balance, you will receive less damage from the kick - but you will be there to recieve their punches, knees and elbows. Those can be dealt with though. moving back does get you out of the way, but puts you at no advantage, unless you intend on running away."

Yeah, I think that's true if you get your timing right. The difficulty with doing that, though, in my experience is when the kick comes at the end of a combination, or is a counter to your own technique, etc. Often the kick's going to come as you're moving out, and in that case it takes longer to reverse direction and come back in than it does to speed up and get back out the way. Also, the chance of running headlong into the hand that's following the kick worries me, as you suggest. I guess it's just a difference in strategy between fighting more cautiously and more aggressively.

I totally agree about making it harder to follow up on, and I did point that out in my post.

"That's the very reason I'd rather step in or shin block."

I think checking with the shin is the perfect answer too - I wasn't sure how CMA guys feel about it though.